Nawlins, Two Years On

I'll admit I haven't been following the post-Katrina rebuilding effort very closely. Um, at all. But with the two year anniversary upon us, I glanced at some of what's been written for the occasion. Kinda shocking. I had no idea that Karl Rove was put in charge of the federal effort.

And I had no idea that rebuilding was so utterly stalled:

Over the past two years since Hurricane Katrina, I've seen waves of hardworking volunteers from nonprofits, faith-based groups and college campuses descend on New Orleans, full of compassion and hope.

They arrive in the city's Ninth Ward to painstakingly gut houses one by one. Their jaws drop as they wander around afflicted zones, gazing at the towering mounds of debris and uprooted infrastructure.

After weeks of grueling labor, they realize that they are running in place, toiling in a surreal vacuum.

Two full years after the hurricane, the Big Easy is barely limping along, unable to make truly meaningful reconstruction progress. The most important issues concerning the city's long-term survival are still up in the air. Why is no Herculean clean-up effort underway? Why hasn't President Bush named a high-profile czar such as Colin Powell or James Baker to oversee the ongoing disaster? Where is the U.S. government's participation in the rebuilding?

And why are volunteers practically the only ones working to reconstruct homes in communities that may never again have sewage service, garbage collection or electricity?

Eventually, the volunteers' altruism turns to bewilderment and finally to outrage. They've been hoodwinked. The stalled recovery can't be blamed on bureaucratic inertia or red tape alone. Many volunteers come to understand what I've concluded is the heartless reality: The Bush administration actually wants these neighborhoods below sea level to die on the vine.

I agree that looks bad, but I don't understand why it would benefit this administration or the Republican party to willfully abandon an American city. I just don't see political the logic of it. Admittedly, the admin's performance during and after the hurricane was awful, inexcusable, but so was the city's and the state's. There was plenty of blame to go around. Wouldn't it make the admin look good to step up and go gangbusters on the reconstruction? If not, why not?

Before you go crying that it's all about how corrupt and inefficient Louisianans are, check out some of the numbers from the GAO:

When pressed on the slow pace of recovery in the Gulf Coast, President Bush insists the federal government has fulfilled its promise to rebuild the region. The proof, he says, is in the big check the federal government signed to underwrite the recovery -- allegedly more than $116 billion. But residents of the still-devastated Gulf Coast are left wondering whether the check bounced.

"$116 billion is not a useful number," says Stanley Czerwinski of the Government Accountability Office, Congress' investigative arm.

For starters, most federal money -- about two-thirds -- was quickly spent for short-term needs like debris removal and Coast Guard rescue. As Czerwinski explains, "There is a significant difference between responding to an emergency and rebuilding post-disaster."

That has left little money for long-term Gulf Coast recovery projects. Although it's tricky to unravel the maze of federal reports, our best estimate of agency data is that only $35 billion has been appropriated for long-term rebuilding.

Even worse, less than 42 percent of the money set aside has even been spent, much less gotten to those most in need. For example:

* Washington set aside $16.7 billion for Community Development Block Grants, one of the two biggest sources of rebuilding funds, especially for housing. But as of March 2007, only $1 billion -- just 6 percent -- had been spent, almost all of it in Mississippi. Following bad publicity, HUD spent another $3.8 billion on the program between March and July, leaving 70 percent of the funds still unused.

* The other major source of rebuilding help was supposed to be FEMA's Public Assistance Program. But of the $8.2 billion earmarked, only $3.4 billion was meant for nonemergency projects like fixing up schools and hospitals.

* Louisiana officials recently testified that FEMA has also "low-balled" project costs, underestimating the true expenses by a factor of four or five. For example, for 11 Louisiana rebuilding projects, the lowest bids came to $5.5 million -- but FEMA approved only $1.9 million.

* After the failure of federal levees flooded 80 percent of New Orleans, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers received $8.4 billion to restore storm defenses. But as of July 2007, less than 20 percent of the funds have been spent, even as the Corps admits that levee repair won't be completed until as late as 2011.

The fact that, two years later, most federal Katrina funds remain bottled up in bureaucracy is especially shocking considering that the amounts Washington allocated come nowhere near the anticipated costs of Gulf rebuilding.

So. Given all of this, what the **** is going on? Theories and hypotheses gratefully welcomed. No conspiracies unless you have documentation, please.

Incompetence.

Don't attribute to malice what can be attributed to stupidity, after all.

CR

Quote:

---

Two full years after the hurricane, the Big Easy is barely limping along, unable to make truly meaningful reconstruction progress. The most important issues concerning the city's long-term survival are still up in the air. Why is no Herculean clean-up effort underway? Why hasn't President Bush named a high-profile czar such as Colin Powell or James Baker to oversee the ongoing disaster? Where is the U.S. government's participation in the rebuilding?

---

Those questions are all idiotic in my opinion. I guess the federal government is supposed to just roll in and toss aside municipal and state governments, wave the magic wand, throw around some fat wads of cash and make everything "Better"(TM)? Just send Colin Powell in to run rough-shod over state sovereignty and municipal government. :no:

What exactly should the federal government's responsibilities be in a situation like this? As the article states, they've already paid billions upon billions of dollars to clean up debris and rebuild infrastructure. New Orleans may still be a mess, but other areas hit just as hard, if not harder, are well on their way to recovery.

Quote:

---

Many volunteers come to understand what I've concluded is the heartless reality: The Bush administration actually wants these neighborhoods below sea level to die on the vine.

---

I don't really think this is true, but it does beg a question. Why on earth would the federal government want to spend money on rebuilding communities below sea-level, in a flood zone? That whole story is a bunch of emotional-appeal, tripe.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xiahou

Those questions are all idiotic in my opinion. I guess the federal government is supposed to just roll in and toss aside municipal and state governments, wave the magic wand, throw around some fat wads of cash and make everything "Better"(TM)? Just send Colin Powell in to run rough-shod over state sovereignty and municipal government. :no:

What exactly should the federal government's responsibilities be in a situation like this? As the article states, they've already paid billions upon billions of dollars to clean up debris and rebuild infrastructure. New Orleans may still be a mess, but other areas hit just as hard, if not harder, are well on their way to recovery.

---

It seems that the state institutions clearly aren't up to the job, and I can see why. If the federal government has far more resources at its disposal and in theory should be able to concentrate them more effectively, then why not? I realise in the US strong federal government is hardly a popular form of running the country, but isn't it in precisely this kind of a situation where Washington can (or rather, should be able to) do things the individual states simply can't do as well on their own? I'd have thought that the whole point, in general letting states run things themselves and stepping in when necessary such as in Louisiana now.

Whenever I see somebody on television complaining about the lack of Katrina Aid, it's always somebody living in a trailer bitching that nobody has given them a 3000 ft^2 house with central AC yet. Sorry, my sympathies in that department run almost non-existently. Refugees fleeing for their lives from the Sudan with nothing but the clothes on their backs have arrived since the catastrophe and managed to get themselves settled. The Katrina victims have had just about every debt under the sun forgiven. All they have to do is get off their butts, get a job and start taking care of themselves. But apparently, that's too much to ask of them. :dizzy2:

Seriously, when people need aid, I have as big a heart as anyone. But I'm not going to ooh and aah over these new emperor's clothes. After two years, these people need to start looking to their own needs. "Katrina aid" has become codeword for "permanent entitlement" and I want no parts of it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemur

Theories and hypotheses gratefully welcomed.

---

The federal government is consumed with Iraq/afghanistan and cleaning up the messes of scandals. Lemur's opening line is telling, he along with millions of other americans havent been paying attention to the aftermath of Katrina. We are awash in recycled news of failure in Iraq, and however else the media can beat the dead horse that is Bush.

One only needs to look at, lets say April 2007 what were the predominate news stories? Was Katrina recovery 5% of them? Public awareness is often driven by media outlets and its far to easy to hammer on Iraq.

Meantime gas lines burst in manhattan, bridges collapse, floods in the corn belt, fires on the west cost, Air traffic control system from the 50's, a power grid that is failing....

Domestic infrastructure issues dont make sexy news casts and sell commercials unless someone dies. I work with my town government and at the local level thats where this business of rebuilding bridges (and its funding) gets hashed out.

So nawlins has been left to its own devices, not surprisingly its a domestic infrastructure issue which rarely garnishes national attention.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemur

I agree that looks bad, but I don't understand why it would benefit this administration or the Republican party to willfully abandon an American city. I just don't see political the logic of it. Admittedly, the admin's performance during and after the hurricane was awful, inexcusable, but so was the city's and the state's. There was plenty of blame to go around. Wouldn't it make the admin look good to step up and go gangbusters on the reconstruction? If not, why not?

---

From a politically cynical viewpoint, why would a Republican administration rebuild New Orleans? It's not like they will ever win over the voters there. The GOP cares about suburbs and rural areas more than major cities, that's where their support is.

From a practical standpoint, I pretty much agree that the areas below sea level should not be rebuilt. A waste of current funds and a potential disaster waiting to happen. But if that's the plan, they need to just step up and say it, and tell the former residents that they need to give up hope of returning and get a job somewhere else.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xiahou

Why on earth would the federal government want to spend money on rebuilding communities below sea-level, in a flood zone?

---

Excellent question, and I haven't heard it addressed seriously by the President, FEMA, Karl Rove, the Governor or the Mayor. Both enviro-weenies and big oil representatives agree that the wetlands should be re-seeded and the city made much smaller. When environmentalists and petro-businesses agree on something it's worth taking note.

So why did the President blindly pledge to rebuild Nawlins? Why didn't anyone start a conversation about how maybe the city needed to be radically reconfigured?

Some people are just incapable of doing ANYTHING for themselves. No matter how much federal aid or programs you give them they will NEVER be anymore than a leach on our tax dollar. These "Nawlins" Katrina "victims" need to get off their collective asses (probably for the first time in their lives), throw away the 40's, put out the Kools, break the crack pipes, and WORK to get THEIR city straight. The Man is getting pretty tired of having to do EVERYTHING for those who won't do for themselves except use the same excuses used for the past 50 damn years.

So Don and Dave, both of you are putting forward the Permanent Parasites argument, if I'm getting you correctly?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemur

So Don and Dave, both of you are putting forward the Permanent Parasites argument, if I'm getting you correctly?

---

He's not but I am. He's talking personal responsibility. I on the other hand I'm talking about the hood urban mentality of the majority population of "Nawlins".
Maybe they can have a dog fighting fund raiser or something. The only problem is the money would probably go to gold "teef" and rims for a 1970 cutliss.

Okay Dave, let me get this straight -- you are saying that Nawlins is populated by black parasites who will waste any aid given, blow any money on stereotypical ghetto toys, and that what is needed is for them to take personal responsibility and stop suckling on the governmental teat.

And that is the long and the short of the New Orleans situation. Am I reading this correctly?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

He's not but I am. He's talking personal responsibility. I on the other hand I'm talking about the hood urban mentality of the majority population of "Nawlins".
Maybe they can have a dog fighting fund raiser or something. The only problem is the money would probably go to gold "teef" and rims for a 1970 cutliss.

---

what the hell..... :laugh4:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemur

Okay Dave, let me get this straight -- you are saying that Nawlins is populated by black parasites who will waste any aid given, blow any money on stereotypical ghetto toys, and that what is needed is for them to take personal responsibility and stop suckling on the governmental teat.

And that is the long and the short of the New Orleans situation. Am I reading this correctly?

---

Thats a very racist post and I'll report you next time you do that. Not once did I say black. Obviously when you see words like "teef, rims, Kools, 40's, urban, crack pipes, etc) you think "black". You should be ashamed of yourself. You should realise that many "colors" have this mentality. It doesn't matter what color you are, it matters what is within as Dr King said. You really should try to rid yourself of associating steroetypes with color.

Mm-hmmm. And the cross your have burning on your lawn is just an illuminated symbol of Christianity, and the white hood and robe is just a clever method for actively drying the sheets. I gotcha, Dave.

You've gone too far. Will you be giving yourself the warning?

Dev Dave is at full throttle today lads and lasses!

Hide your flocks!


:devilish: Sorry, just couldn't resist...:smartass2:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

Dev Dave is at full throttle today lads and lasses!

Hide your flocks!


:devilish: Sorry, just couldn't resist...:smartass2:

---

I'm goin on vacation down to Tennesse this weekend, Lemur looks like he could use the exercise. And no, I'm not going to a Klan rally.:laugh4:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemur

Mm-hmmm. And the cross your have burning on your lawn is just an illuminated symbol of Christianity, and the white hood and robe is just a clever method for actively drying the sheets. I gotcha, Dave.

---

:thumbsdown:

thats a pretty serious allegation there Lemur, considering you didnt bother to put any smilies or a disclaimer of sarcasm.

Its a shame really you used to be held in pretty high regard (at least by me) I'm sure you dont personally care, but the tone, content and seeming intent of your postings has changed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

I on the other hand I'm talking about the hood urban mentality of the majority population of "Nawlins".

---

Following the post by Lemur:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

Thats a very racist post and I'll report you next time you do that. Not once did I say black. Obviously when you see words like "teef, rims, Kools, 40's, urban, crack pipes, etc) you think "black". You should be ashamed of yourself. You should realise that many "colors" have this mentality. It doesn't matter what color you are, it matters what is within as Dr King said. You really should try to rid yourself of associating steroetypes with color.

---

Linky to US census, showing that 67,3 percent of the population of New Orleans is black.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

He's not but I am. He's talking personal responsibility. I on the other hand I'm talking about the hood urban mentality of the majority population of "Nawlins".
Maybe they can have a dog fighting fund raiser or something. The only problem is the money would probably go to gold "teef" and rims for a 1970 cutliss.

---

The majority population of new orleans is african american (67%). Thus it's evident the last line refers to them.

Dave claimed that lemur was being racist and that he hadn't meant his post in a racist way, lemurs example was to to point out how ridiculous that claim was.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

The majority population of new orleans is african american (67%). Thus it's evident the last line refers to them.

Dave claimed that lemur was being racist and that he hadn't meant his post in a racist way, lemurs example was to to point out how ridiculous that claim was.

---

Odd Lemur didnt choose that vein when discussing Dave burning a cross on his lawn. :shame:

Dave is no angel, but he covered himself on this one.

Whatever, it dosent matter to bad it had to come to these ridiculous suppositions and pointed accusations.

Why don't we all take a step back and take a deep breath. The racist card is a cheap trick regardless of who decides to play it and for what reason. Unless somebody from the African-American community is actually offended by the discussion, I vote we drop it out of hand.

Trying to slide back onto topic here, please allow me a moment to answer Lemur's question. If by "Permanent Parasites" argument, you're saying that anybody that doesn't agree that these Nawlins folks should be taken care of for life, yes, I suppose I am making that argument.

Just how much of a handout/handup do you think these people need? They had every bill and debt they held prior to the storm erased. They received free housing for the past 2 years. They've received subsidy checks. And they're on TV, whining about how it's not even a drop in the bucket, and as far as they're concerned, the 'real aid' hasn't even started.

How am I supposed to take comments like that? And using derogatory terms to frame my argument to imply that I'm hard-hearted is a weak tactic. Why not answer my challenge on the grounds that they actually are entitled to more handouts? Or that in reality, they never did actually get any?

Am I the only one that remembers people using their checks for strip clubs and a sex-change operation? For trips to Vegas?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Odin

Dave is no angel, but he covered himself on this one.

---

If Dave's covered, so am I. To re-create the magic of the Dave: How dare you assume that a burning cross and a white robe signify anything other than burning wood and a fashion statement. You are clearly bringing your own assumptions to the table.

If my post was clearly referencing something, so was his.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemur

If Dave's covered, so am I. To re-create the magic of the Dave: How dare you assume that a burning cross and a white robe signify anything other than burning wood and a fashion statement. You are clearly bringing your own assumptions to the table.

If my post was clearly referencing something, so was his.

---

If you werent such a pompass ass Lemur, I might take the time to explain it to you. Sadly I would be wasting my breath.

Seriously, dont let me hold you back though, Im dying to see the evidence of your claim that he burns crosses on his front lawn, thats a serious accusation, and specific.

Likewise for Dave, but from him I expect the ridiculous, for you I had a higher threshhold, my bad :no:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro

The majority population of new orleans is african american (67%). Thus it's evident the last line refers to them.

.

---

No, just because you and Lemur are unable to look past someones skin pigment doesn't make me a klansman. Are Vanilla Ice and K-Fed black? What about Eminem?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Don Corleone

Why don't we all take a step back and take a deep breath. The racist card is a cheap trick regardless of who decides to play it and for what reason. Unless somebody from the African-American community is actually offended by the discussion, I vote we drop it out of hand.

---

Okey-dokey.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Don Corleone

If by "Permanent Parasites" argument, you're saying that anybody that doesn't agree that these Nawlins folks should be taken care of for life, yes, I suppose I am making that argument.

---

I certainly don't believe they should be taken care of indefinitely. I am rather more concerned with stalled federal reconstruction money. It's kinda difficult to rebuild and recover when basic infrastructure is not happening.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Don Corleone

Am I the only one that remembers people using their checks for strip clubs and a sex-change operation? For trips to Vegas?

---

Nope, that was very well-publicized, and much covered in the media. Some of the people who were displaced by the hurricane were terminal losers, agreed. I have no idea what percentage of them were basket cases, and neither do you. However, it is safe to assume that there are some reasonable, hard-working people in the southern part of Louisiana who are also having a needlessly hard time because the rebuilding is happening so slowly.

Let me back up even further -- do you believe that the Government's role in rebuilding is being filled adequately?

-edit-

Dev Dave, I was not suggesting you were a Klansman. I was drawing an equally offensive parallel, using the exact same techniques you used, to demonstrate how thinly-veiled your reference to black people was. Odin and others are now deeply offended that I could possibly suggest such a thing, while dancing past the comments that inspired the analogy. Whatever. If I get my warning, I'll take it like a lemur.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemur

Let me back up even further -- do you believe that the Government's role in rebuilding is being filled adequately?

---

At the infrastructure/public-works level? No. But then, as the city sits 10 feet below sea level, I was opposed to the idea of rebuilding it in the first place. But that's water under the bridge (sorry, pun wasn't intended). The government did in fact promise they were going to rebuild, and AFAIK, they haven't done a lot of the things for the local infrastructure that they said they were going to.

At the personal level? We've given out way, way too much money already. If the families that are supposed to be helped are so hard-working, why is it that 2 years down the road, with no bills to pay, they still need the government to cover their nut for them?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemur

Dev Dave, I was not suggesting you were a Klansman. I was drawing an equally offensive parallel, using the exact same techniques you used, to demonstrate how thinly-veiled your reference to black people was. Odin and others are now deeply offended that I could possibly suggest such a thing, while dancing past the comments that inspired the analogy. Whatever. If I get my warning, I'll take it like a lemur.

---

Again, you point out where I said "black" and I'll give you the Craig treatment and you can video tape it and post it in the Backroom.:yes:

Try #20 and #21.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Geoffrey S

Try #20 and #21.

---

AGAIN, quote where I said "black". Just because some people here are unable to seperate stereotypes and color does not make me a klansman, it only makes you illiterate.

Lemur, feel free to apologise when ever you get the chance for your ad hominem attack. Be a man, admit you were wrong.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

I'm talking about the hood urban mentality of the majority population of "Nawlins".

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Geoffrey S

Linky to US census, showing that 67,3 percent of the population of New Orleans is black.

---

As for apologies, DevDave, I'll take a three warnings and an instagib before I'll apologize for pointing out your amusing but tasteless race-baiting.

Look, I'm not arguing either way. All I'm saying is that your post (unintentionally, judging by the tone of your later posts) in referring to the majority of the city reads as if it's referring to blacks implicitely due to the demographics of New Orleans.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Geoffrey S

Look, I'm not arguing either way. All I'm saying is that your post (unintentionally, judging by the tone of your later posts) in referring to the majority of the city reads as if it's referring to blacks implicitely due to the demographics of New Orleans.

---

And I'll continue to tell Lemur and yourself to seek help for your obvious internal prejudice of "blacks" when you ASSUME the words I posted was referring to people of a darker pigment.

Lemur, you went after me personally and if you can't see what you did was wrong and am not man enough to apologise then you have more issues than just being wrong on this issue. You should reread everything in this thread and AGAIN use logic instead of personal prejudice to summise what has been said by both you and I. Eminem and K-Fed. Word.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemur

As for apologies, DevDave, I'll take a three warnings and an instagib before I'll apologize for pointing out your amusing but tasteless race-baiting.

---

Then I would suggest that you or some other moderator do their job and provide the warnings that you, yourself, are requesting even though a simple apology would do. I've been warned for much less than calling someone a klansman.

Some of my best friends are Devstatin Daves. That doesn't mean I would want my daughter marrying one, or that I want a Devastatin Dave living on my block.

Jeez, people. Everybody knows that the majority population of New Orleans isn't black, it isn't white, it's chocolate!

:focus:


And Dave, Lemur is not a mod for the Backroom, he has no special powers or responsibilities here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by drone

And Dave, Lemur is not a mod for the Backroom, he has no special powers or responsibilities here.

---

So then its ok for him to personally insult me. OK...:juggle2:

Lemur, you really should get back on topic, I'd hate for you to get warned for trolling. :beam:

That'll teach me to have supper before checking the Backroom.

Gentlemen, lines have been o'erstepped in a big way. The subject was being discussed sensibly before we veered off on this unoriginal tangent, so I will leave it open for now, in the hope that the discussion can get back on track.

Let me remind members that if they find a post offensive or think it breaks the forum rules, they should use the report post button, not stoke up the flames by personal attacks. A Backroom moderator may not be immediately available, but will usually drop by soon enough as we cover all time zones.

Get back on topic and play nicely, otherwise - well, you all know the drill by now. :beadyeyes2:

Thank you kindly.

:bow:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

So then its ok for him to personally insult me. OK...:juggle2:

---

No, it isn't. But from this thread and the Craig thread, you seem to think he has duties here. If you are trying to get a Backroom mod fired before your vacation, you need to work on Pape, BQ, or Kukri, but I don't see them taking the bait. I'd advise Lemur for his sake to put you on ignore, but I don't think a mod can. One of the drawbacks of his duties, I suppose. ~D

:focus:

Edit-> Beaten by BQ. Sorry. Eat your meal before checking the Backroom, you don't want to ruin your appetite. ~D

I did use the report button, but Lemur continues personal insults, I didn't but I guess that really doesn't matter since he's in the club. I feel like a black guy wanting to join Augusta, oh well, back to topic.

Again, the people of "Nawlins", a large population of which has ALSWAYS been dependent on the government, have had TWO years to get back on their feet with the most disaster money ever given in history as complared to population per person. They, if they had less propencity to laziness and colt 45, could have used this as an oppertunity to better themselves but they haven't instead this will be another excuse to live like parasites for the remainders of their lives and for generations to come.

Let me stress AGAIN, the word "black" is not in any part of the post. And it is in no means speaking of blacks, it is speaking of the pieces of #### that I've been supporting since they popped out of the welfare mother my parents have supoorted before me. If the person that lazy, drinking Colt, and popping out babies they can't afford happens to be black, it doesn't make me a Klansman for saying they suck and would do us all a favor if they either sterilize themselves or break another levy while wearing a pair on concrete boots. Thank you...

This entire thread makes me laugh. It's a perfect example of the backroom at it's most argumentative and disgusting.

I think it's important to distinguish the difference between the people who were affected being taken care of and the infrastructure being rebuilt.

By and large, it seems the people have been taken care of enough. They shouldn't need, nor receive, benefits until they die.

The infrastructure of the city is less important than ensuring the people have adequate shelter and food. It seems evident that this rebuilding, stupid as it may be, is not going forward well. But to hoist all the blame on the feds is wrong.

As to why Bush promised to rebuild it - anyone else remember how people (by which I mean American liberals) seemed to be practically demanding it be rebuilt, that anything else would be racist, etc. ?

CR

I guess I just wish that some politician with clout would have the guts to talk about how it should be rebuilt. Heck, maybe that's one of the real reasons reconstruction has been so laggardly. Sort of like Israel's settlements, changing the reality on the ground before you go into negotiations.

Honestly, I think New Orleans should be a much smaller city, concentrated on areas of high ground. It seems insanely wasteful to rebuild all of it.

Lemur's preferred outcome:

• Rebuild on higher ground only
• Scale city back in size
• Re-settle the poorest in scattered-site housing in other cities

But I guess a lot of that is happening already, with or without public discussion.

There may or may not be an inertial state of laziness in the typical New Orleans resident. I don't know. I don't have the stats on welfare, and don't really feel like looking them up. I did say this:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by me

From a practical standpoint, I pretty much agree that the areas below sea level should not be rebuilt. A waste of current funds and a potential disaster waiting to happen. But if that's the plan, they need to just step up and say it, and tell the former residents that they need to give up hope of returning and get a job somewhere else.

---

Call it closure or whatever. If you promise people you will rebuild, they are going to expect it and assume you will take responsibility for it. I believe I posted ages ago in a Katrina thread that the citizens should be hired on to the rebuilding effort (think 30's era depression work), which would a) get them off their butts and working, and b) give them a sense of empowerment, pride, and ownership. But forcing people to work is soooo 20th century, so it's not going to happen. What the government needs to say is "we are done here, we aren't recommending you live below sea level in a hurricane zone, you need to find another place to live and get on with your life". The administration doesn't seem to want to rebuild the lower parts of the city, and I have to say I agree with that decision. But they need to grow a pair and just say it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by drone

". The administration doesn't seem to want to rebuild the lower parts of the city, and I have to say I agree with that decision. But they need to grow a pair and just say it.

---

You can't do that because when you state the obvious people like Lemur will say, "And the cross your have burning on your lawn is just an illuminated symbol of Christianity, and the white hood and robe is just a clever method for actively drying the sheets." and make it, not a culture problem but a RACE problem.

It's true, race does make everything unbelievably convoluted. I have no doubt that if the majority of New Orleans were white, this would have been handled differently. Not better or worse, necessarily, but differently. The administration would have been on a surer footing dealing bad news with a white population.

I can agree with you there Lemur, but I believe it has less to do with color but more to do with the attitude of New Orleans. If you have ever been or lived there you would understand what I mean, and no, its not a black thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

You can't do that because when you state the obvious people like Lemur will say, "And the cross your have burning on your lawn is just an illuminated symbol of Christianity, and the white hood and robe is just a clever method for actively drying the sheets." and make it, not a culture problem but a RACE problem.

---

It's not a culture problem, it's not a race problem, it's an elevation problem. However, the fact that few of the displaced residents vote Republican probably aided the decision.

Edit-> To make the decision more palatable to the rest of the country, maybe they should outline, in gory detail, how much it will cost each citizen in tax dollars to rebuild NO, only with no guarantee it will remain above water. Maybe throw in current debt numbers and the possibility of a tax increase to pay for it. See how the public opinion seems to turn their way after that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

I think it's important to distinguish the difference between the people who were affected being taken care of and the infrastructure being rebuilt.

---

Aye. I don't really know anything about if, how or why not the people that were affected were compensated, and I don't really care much. (well I do care about the people, but not so much about the politics of America's disaster relief methods etc)

I do care about the city of New Orleans. Surely it is one of America's most distinct cities? With a unique blend of cultures, creating unique and singular architecture, music, festivals? Not every town in the US should be another Akron, Ohio.* New Orleans is one of a kind, a rare diamond.
America has got a history and a distinctive culture too, a historical heritage that is not the lesser of any European country. Why not go the extra mile to preserve it? By public funding if need be. New Orleans is worthy of a special effort.

Venice is forever threatened, but would the Italians give it up to the sea? Amsterdam is below sea level, yet they somehow manage. I think New Orleans should be rebuild too, at the same location, including the lower parts. It can be protected from future floods and hurricanes if there is the will.


* Knowing God's sense of humour, the odds of there being at least one person from Akron, Ohio among the twenty people reading this are infinitely higher than there would be in a rational universe governed by the laws of physics, so: my apologies for having offended your beloved pearl of Ohio.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I should mind my own business, but:

Quote:

---

I did use the report button, but Lemur continues personal insults, I didn't but I guess that really doesn't matter since he's in the club. I feel like a black guy wanting to join Augusta, oh well, back to topic.

---

Come on, Dave. If you can dish it out, then know how to take it in return. I enjoy your rants, some of them are so creative that at times I think you deserve your own talk radio show.
But don't be an *anagram of Newark* when you get a taste of your own medicine. :yes:

I'm not saying they shouldn't be able to rebuild- I'm say we shouldn't pay for people to rebuild in coastal areas, below sea level. We encourage poor decision-making whenever the federal rides to the rescue and bails everyone out for doing something that no intelligent person should do in the first place. I'm afraid we're going to see something similar in the housing market. People have taken out mortgages that are well beyond their means to pay for and now they start clamoring for the government to protect them from their own bad choices.

As to why Bush promised to completely rebuild NO? I dunno... he's an ass? :beam:
Seriously though, what else could he have said? "All you poor minorities will have to find somewhere else to live- you had no business building houses there in the first place." ... I can imagine everyone's reaction to that. Political cowardice? Perhaps, but do you really think John Kerry(or any other politician) would've had the guts to say different had he been president?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xiahou

I'm not saying they shouldn't be able to rebuild- I'm say we shouldn't pay for people to rebuild in coastal areas, below sea level.

---

Throw in flood plains while you're at it. And the idiots who build multi-million dollar homes on Floridian sand bars, and expect the U.S. Government to pick up the tab when their view goes from oceanfront to breakers.

You're right, we encourage bad decisions by subsidizing mistakes. The more I think about it, though, the more I'm convinced that the slothful rebuilding of infrastructure in New Orleans is deliberate, or at least tacit. Since it would be political suicide, as you point out, to say, "Stop living below sea level in Hurricane Alley," the government is doing something by doing nothing.

Heck, if you believe what you read, the canal that did the most flooding hasn't even been fixed, and it's two years on.

I may need to don my tinfoil for this one, but again, if you believe what you read (Times-Picayune), Mississippi, which votes predominantly Republican, has received twice as much funding as Democratic Louisiana.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

I do care about the city of New Orleans. Surely it is one of America's most distinct cities? With a unique blend of cultures, creating unique and singular architecture, music, festivals? Not every town in the US should be another Akron, Ohio.* New Orleans is one of a kind, a rare diamond.

---

What other city would have given us this gem:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by A Streetcar Named Marge

Long before the Superdome,
Where the Saints of football play,
There's a city where the damned call home,
Hear their hellish rondelet:

New Orleans!
Home of pirates, drunks, and whores...
New Orleans!
Tacky, overpriced souvenir stores...

If you want to go to hell, you should take a trip
To the Sodom and Gomorrah of the Mississip':

New Orleans!
Stinking, rotten, vomiting, vile...
New Orleans!
Putrid, brackish, maggotty, foul...

New Orleans!
Crummy, lousy, rancid and rank...
New Orleans!

---

~D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by drone

I believe I posted ages ago in a Katrina thread that the citizens should be hired on to the rebuilding effort (think 30's era depression work), which would a) get them off their butts and working, and b) give them a sense of empowerment, pride, and ownership. But forcing people to work is soooo 20th century, so it's not going to happen.

---

Heresy! If the citizens were hired to do the work, then how would politicians funnel the rebuilding contracts to cronies and campaign donors?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemur

Heresy! If the citizens were hired to do the work, then how would politicians funnel the rebuilding contracts to cronies and campaign donors?

---

Well, I'm sure there would be exclusive material supply/delivery contracts, logistical support, waste management, and other services that could only be provided by "professionals". Surely somebody made money off the New Deal. ~;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemur

Heresy! If the citizens were hired to do the work, then how would politicians funnel the rebuilding contracts to cronies and campaign donors?

---

And that is the BIGGEST reason why, if you are New Orleans resident, you should be pissed. This is also why the federal government should do a better job of getting the locals involved instead of bowing to preasure to "do something". The money will not go to the "people", it will be "spent for the people". That's the problem. It continues the cycle for government dependence, the problem that the citizens of New Orleans (white, black, hispanic, martian) have had for the past century.

I debated replying to this thread, mainly because I find the view some Americans hold of their Federal Government to be well, unfathomable.

A man who grew up in a unified state (those were the days) the pertinant question is this:

Who besides the Federal Government has the money to rebuild the infastructure?

In the long term infastructure, sewage, water, electricity, law enforcement, healthcare, emergenct rescue etc. are the things the people cannot rebuild themselevs and their maintainance is the responsibility of the government.

Without infastructure the the city will never be rebuilt. No contractor will build houses without facilities.

After two years the cleanup should be complete and work should be beginning on the planning of the new city.

I'm not sure I understand your point, Philipis. The Federal Government has pledged to rebuild a city 12 feet below sea level in the middle of hurricane alley. It's the dumbest thing I've ever heard of, yet I have to pay for this assaninity. And the only reason they're rebuilding it where it was? To pander to voters that know full well they don't belong where they want to build. And what's more, all the infrastructure in the world won't make these people happy. Just listen to them... they think they're entitled to 50K a year and a free house for the rest of their life. Why? For being dumb enough to live next to a storm dyke 12 feet under water?

Frankly, I find the European view of the State unfathomable. You act as though the money the government distributes is their very own money, earned by the sweat of their brow. Well, if having the tax man rob people is hard work, you might have a point, but the money the State spends come from you and me, friend. Shouldn't we get a say when we see it being thrown away like this? I mean for crying out loud, Congress should just start lighting cigars with $100 bills, it would be cheaper. :dizzy2:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Don Corleone

I'm not sure I understand your point, Philipis. The Federal Government has pledged to rebuild a city 12 feet below sea level in the middle of hurricane alley. It's the dumbest thing I've ever heard of, yet I have to pay for this assaninity. And the only reason they're rebuilding it where it was? To pander to voters that know full well they don't belong where they want to build. And what's more, all the infrastructure in the world won't make these people happy. Just listen to them... they think they're entitled to 50K a year and a free house for the rest of their life. Why? For being dumb enough to live next to a storm dyke 12 feet under water?

---

My point was that essentially I agree with you in that your government shouldn't be giving handouts but fixing the broken parts of the city that are their responsibility, i.e. infastructure. As to people not living there, I suggest you evacuate San Fransisco as well then. New Orleons is one of the relatively few places non-Americans can identify and which cleary had it's own vibrant culture. That makes it a valuable part of your nation from where I'm sitting.

If it was impossible to guard against future hurricanes and flooding I'd say you should abandon it, but it isn't impossible and it's worth thinking about how many times the city wasn't destroyed.

Quote:

---

Frankly, I find the European view of the State unfathomable. You act as though the money the government distributes is their very own money, earned by the sweat of their brow. Well, if having the tax man rob people is hard work, you might have a point, but the money the State spends come from you and me, friend. Shouldn't we get a say when we see it being thrown away like this? I mean for crying out loud, Congress should just start lighting cigars with $100 bills, it would be cheaper. :dizzy2:

---

The European view is very simple. You pay taxes and as a result the state stops you from being robbed, saves you when your house burns down and fixes you when you're ill. It also provides a certain level of stability, supports national buisness intersts and stops other people from invading.

In this case something has gone very wrong for the people of "The Big Easy" and it is the responsibility of the government to fix it for them because it's not something the people themselves are responsible for. The city was virtually destroyed so it is encumbent on the government to provide facilitate the building of a new city.

To put it another way, to restore the status quo.

In America it seems you neither like nor trust your government on an institutional level. You want to maintain State Governments dsepite the injustices and frankly inane legal oddities it causes.

You don't want your government to look after you, which is why you don't have universal healthcare yet.

You are correct. We don't want the government to look after us. At least, people that work don't. In America, Socialism means I stay home and loaf, you go to work and we split your paycheck. Which is why so many of us are opposed to it. I believe Hore Tore and others when they say that's not how its supposed to work, but I'm telling you, that's exactly how it works over here.

Even if I couldn't take care of myself, the Federal Government would be the last place I'd turn for help, if for no other reason, then they are so utterly inept. A good charity turns 92% to 93% of the money it collects for a cause over to that cause. A bad one, maybe 80%, maybe, on a really bad case, 70%. When the Federal Government introduces a new tax, earmarked specifically for a cause, do you know what the payout is? Typically, about 30%. The other 70%? I'll let you guess where it goes.

Don't forget that some people did the right thing, got out of town, had insurance, etcetera, and still got the pointy end of a stick for their troubles. This vivid image painted of "gold-teef" wearing welfare scum is partial at best.

State Farm Insurance supervisors systematically demanded that Hurricane Katrina damage reports be buried or replaced or changed so that the company would not have to pay policyholders' claims in Mississippi, two State Farm insiders tell ABC News.

Kerri and Cori Rigsby, independent adjusters who had worked for State Farm exclusively for eight years, say they have turned over thousands of internal company documents and their own detailed statement to the FBI and Mississippi state investigators.