Not to mention that HoreTore's quote is an equally hamstrung Eurocentric view as the American perspective it taunts. If you think Republicans are 'extreme right' where on Earth do you put the BNP or France's National Front on the spectrum?
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Not to mention that HoreTore's quote is an equally hamstrung Eurocentric view as the American perspective it taunts. If you think Republicans are 'extreme right' where on Earth do you put the BNP or France's National Front on the spectrum?
Moderates. ~DQuote:
Originally Posted by Proletariat
Not to mention that "liberal" by definition can't be moderate. Liberalism is about change, conservatism is about preserving the status quo. Neither side of the pond really uses the terms as they should, strictly speaking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Proletariat
My theory for the difference is that the US was founded on a limited government, therefore to us, conservatism is trying to maintain that. I think that Europe doesn't have the same foundations in that regard, so the term takes on different meaning.
*I haven't really put much thought into this, mind you. :beam:
Actually, by definition "liberalism" is not necessarily about "change" - if you look at the meaning of the word it is about "freedom". So actually, by definition, it is not necessarily the opposite of conservatism (e.g., by definition it should be "liberal" to be against strong gun control).Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiahou
This is in line with how (at least AFAIK - I am sure about the German use of the term) "liberal" is used here in Europe (and more in line with what is called "libertarian" in the US).
It's the usual problem of attempting to fit politics onto a straight line, bookending it with arbitrary terms such as "right" and "left".
I put them on a special list of people deserving a good torching :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by Proletariat
Seriously though, nazi/fascist parties are, of course, way more extreme right than the republicans are. Extreme-extreme-extreme right might be fitting.
As Ser_Clegane points out, liberalism is about freedom, not change. However, there are two forms of liberalism:Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiahou
- Economic liberalism, ie. free-market, minimal state, low taxes etc.
- Social liberalism, ie. personal freedom, what you do is your own business and should not restricted, or in other words, pro-gay marriage, pro-choice, etc(as Ser_Clegane pointed out, pro-guns is a liberal stance)
Now, the parties who have BOTH of these forms in their policy, belong in the centre. They have are both left(social) and right(economic), and +1 - -1 = 0.
However, other parties usually stick with one of those forms while banning the other, or, more commonly, put major restrictions and only allow it in certain areas. Those with an emphasis on economic and not social usually belong on the right. The opposite belongs on the left. Note that here in europe, he usual stance for most conservatives(like the democrats) is slightly off centre , in that they have a lot of economic liberalism, but they also have quite a bit of social liberalism too.
Myself, for example, belongs on the left. I'm big on social liberalism, but I want great restrictions on economic liberalism. Don_Corleone(well, from what I've seen of his posts), on the other hand, is a fan of economic liberalism, while being a conservative on the social issues, thus placing him on the right.
I'd say I'm much more a fan of economic liberalism than social conservatism (in fact, on some matters, I'm rather socially liberal as well). The problem stems from the fact that politics really occupies a two variable space, but we all try to define it in one dimension (left and right). If they serve no other purpose, those endless Libertarian 'political position' charts should be regarded for getting people to start thinking like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
I do find it interesting that in condensing from two dimensions to one, economics wins over social issues. People that are economically liberal and socially liberal consider themselves (and everybody else considers them) rightys. People that are economically conservative and socially conservative consider themselves (and every body else considers) lefty.
There's a good difference between the European view and our's, our Libertarian party, who represents economic and social liberlism is considered rather far right, rather than centric.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Even that is up for debate though, so here it isn't that cut and dry either.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_rightQuote:
Originally Posted by Wiki article 'Far right'
Like Geoffrey pointed out, it's better to view political spectrums as circular, rather than a left-right line. Stalin and Hitler's governments had alot more in common with each other than our Republicans and Democrats here, even tho the the former are considered 'extreme left' and 'extreme right.'
Yes, that's the problem with left/right view, it's meant to cover only economic issues. Social stuff isn't really covered by it, so when defining parties, their economic policies are always counted first. We really need 2 scales to take that into account, one left/right for economics, and one liberal/conservative(or whatever) for social issues. I like this one:Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Corleone
http://www.politicalcompass.org/
Interesting but there were some pretty loaded questions there, HoreTore.Quote:
Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: 5.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.13
:juggle2:
I wasn't referring to the test, I was referring to their scale ~;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Proletariat
Btw:
Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -9.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.23
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/08/...est/index.html
craig's police interview
Economic: 8.25
Social: -1.23
(I'm right next to Milton Friedman! :-) )
So for all the talk about how I'm socially conservative, actually, the guys on the right that say I lean left on social issues are correct.
Well, I agree with that, seeing as I agree with you a surprising number of times...Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Corleone
My turn! My turn! :beam:Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
That seems pretty close. My social conservatism definitely takes the backseat to my economic conservatism.Quote:
Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: 7.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 0.87
I agree that blanket conservative/liberal labels are a bit simplistic as there are clear social and economic components to each.
Economic Left/Right: 3.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.64
As for using HoreTore's pithy quip for a siggie, as Cartman says, "I do what I want!"
[bandwagon]
Economic Left/Right: -5.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 0.21
[/bandwagon]
Although personally I would categorize myself slightly less leftist and more authoritarian.
Ummm as for the topic... While I can somewhat understand how he is trying to avoid his homosexual affections by displaying himself as a staunch opponent to it, I do think that Craig would be wise to resign at this point (for the good of his party, and also to possibly get out of public spotlight), as with the contradictions in his attitude in relation to his actions diminishes the credibility he may have had.
Economic Left/Right: -3.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.44
I guess being in the Gandhi neighborhood isn´t too shabby :laugh4:
I had to check that in Wiktionary to determine if it was a compliment or an insult... Darn you native english speakers! :whip:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
I'm feeling rather alone in the bottom left corner though... Nobody wants to join me? :embarassed:
Economic Left/Right: 1.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.31
Can someone explain to me what this means? Please be kind in your descriptions.
Well, according to their website, I'm more a Libertarian than you are, for one. :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by Odin
Honestly, the big difference is most likely that you don't trust big corporations any more than you trust big government and that's skewing your results on the economic scale.
Remember, I'm in more Ayn Rand, Milton Freedman territory. You're probably where most people who fit the more generally accepted view of Libertarians reside.
You're a trouble-making moderate who insists on stymying any progress in any of the four directions the scales measure!Quote:
Originally Posted by Odin
:whip:
Don is one of those agreeable people on the other political scale. There's a few of them running around here.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
My results are about the same as the usually are.
Economic Left/Right: -6.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.26
Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -0.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.31
I'm fairly moderate, like I figured. A little more left on freedoms though, but not much.
Woho! Another socialist leftie! *does the happy dance*Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironside
Figures, a woman is the one who is wise to me...Quote:
Originally Posted by Proletariat
:medievalcheers:
Odd as my evaluation of you has been a "reasonable conservative", my own grouping.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Corleone
Well this is true, but I do trust corporations more then government, at least with them its all about profit.Quote:
Honestly, the big difference is most likely that you don't trust big corporations any more than you trust big government and that's skewing your results on the economic scale.
As I spend more time here and evolve my outlooks given others opinions I find myself leaning more and more to the right, with a few notable exceptions.Quote:
Remember, I'm in more Ayn Rand, Milton Freedman territory. You're probably where most people who fit the more generally accepted view of Libertarians reside.
My mission is a failure then.... ~:mecry:Quote:
Originally Posted by Odin
Well I am hardly predictable HoreTore, I may be on a greenpeace boat next week ramming japanese fishing vessels while tucked away in my backpack are hamiltons & madisons federalist papers.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
However, it seems I have contributed to taking this thread off track, my appologies to those on topic.
Economic Left/Right: -6.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.77
~:mecry:
Silly Yank site! If I were American, right now I'd turn myself in for being a subversive fifth columnist commie! :shame:
Whereas in fact I am a moderate centre-rightist!!1! I guess this test proves HoreTore's theorem. The rightwing Euros register as ultra-left on an American scale, and the leftist Americans as centrist.
Has any Euro here made it into the + on this scale yet? Where's Fragony?
I'm also dying to find out where Tribes or JAG would end up.
It's a european site, in fact.... Congratulations on your new place as a leftie! :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
Economic Left/Right: -4.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.41
Well, I cannot say I'm too surprised by the results.
Sticking with my new status: even if it is of European making, it is still America's fault, somehow.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
I'm not sure it's either, but here's the reference.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
I guess this is a good time to split the thread so we don't keep taking this offtopic.
If there was(is) anything having to do with Larry Craig that is worth talking about anymore, we would be (or soon will). Not a bad tangent, imho
Economic Left/Right: -4.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 0.97
This is by all means the perfect political stance ~D
https://img245.imageshack.us/img245/...sorgxr6.th.jpg
Hmm, Interesting. I think this is a good time to split this thread however.
Cool chart. I'm still wondering how Don managed to rate as a bigger capitalist pig than I, though. :sweatdrop:Quote:
Originally Posted by Productivity
I think I'm at 7.5 and 1, so 0.5 to the right of Xiahou on that chart thingy.
I didn't like the questions that much.
CR
-4.75 , -6.92
-2.00
-3.69
for me ~:)
The US was founded on classically liberal ideas. The famous paragraph from the American DoI is as good a summary of classical liberalism as there is. If one goes back a bit further, one can trace the break between liberalism and the state back to the corresponding break between protestantism and the established church. IMHO that's why Britain is a bit different from mainland Europe in our political thinking, and the US more different still.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiahou
Economic Left/Right: -1.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.62
I've updated it with Crazed Rabbit, Tribesman, econ21 and Ser Clegane. I've also added an average - it's just the mean of all scores. Ice wins at the moment.
https://img299.imageshack.us/img299/...sorgbx9.th.jpg
Your name truly suits you :yes:
Well done with the graphing.
Economic Left/Right: -1.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.46
Similar to Econ.
Economic Left/Right: -3.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.49
Hehe, over here, a party with the views of the Republicans would probably considered a threat to the welfare of our society. Like that British doctor said in Sicko: It would be a revolution if socialized healthcare was removed. Also, no political party with the word "Front" in their name can be any good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Proletariat
I took the political compass too, by the way:
Economic Left/Right: -7.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.38
Pretty close to Dalai Lama...
To be honest though, this doesn't really reflect my political views as I'm a fascist in some aspects, anarchist in some and just plain ignorant and indifferent in others. A political test can never be perfect. I prefer to define my political stance from my philosophic view: to heck with it all.
Economic Left/Right: 2.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.03
Hmm. It's probably more to the right than I'd naturally place myself, but I disagreed with the way a large number of the statements were phrased. Oh well.
Productivity, nice initiative! It'd be interesting to see how it all turns out.
Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -4.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.31
Mind you, I don't really no what I'm talking about in economics, a bunch of the questions were confusing. I honestly have no idea what effect multinational monopolies have.
Interesting thing about that graph, we only have 4 authoritarians and they're barely above the line.
I think I only didn't understand one of the questions (I think bottom of page 3 or 4)
Also, some questions really depended on how you understood/read them.
For example I would think more carefully about a question that includes the words "always" "X should be Y" "everytime".
I guess the result depends a lot on how critically you think about a given question and consider out of the box cases that might possibly not be completely agreeable.
:2thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Productivity
Yes, I noticed that. I guess it is the Orgs demographic - the Org is mainly young men who are into the internet and computer gaming. I suspect they tend to be fairly liberal on the questions of sex, religion and patriotism that determine the vertical axis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro
It's an interesting graph, Productivity. Maybe you could persuade Divinus Arma to include it in his post #1 of the "who the hell are you?" stickie?
It might be fun to colour code the entries by region - casual inspection suggests Euros and Yanks have rather different centres of gravity! (which I believe was the starting point for this thread ...)
Well... At least it was the final off-topic nail getting the original thread completely off course :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by econ21
It is actually quite surprising how many people are close to HoreTore, even though he is generally seen as being "the socialist" around here :grin:
Economic Left/Right: 0.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.36
Fairly moderate to, with a liberal lean on social issues.
Well, to be honest, I think I should be a little to the right on the economics, seeing as I want free markets, just not everywhere... Some things are best done by the state IMO. In other areas, the private sector handles things just fine, though I'd like the state to be a competitor too.Quote:
Originally Posted by FactionHeir
HoreTore seems like a socialist, but he can be reasonable. What you need is JAG to stop by and take the quiz.
:yes:
We socialists are always reasonable ~;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Proletariat
It's all the others who are being unreasonable!
Lol.
I think I'd be more libertarian on the social issues scale if they had some different questions.
CR
Economic Left/Right: -0.62
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.97
A....Texan, and a COMMIE...?? Could this be true???Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Scary, isn't it? :sweatdrop:Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
Well, can we be too surprised? After learning Louis was both French and a Texan, not much surprises me anymore.
Even Jag can be reasonable sometimes, he just leads with his bleeding heart. If you're really looking for an off-the-hook Lefty, have Idaho take it. I bet the chart can't measure him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Proletariat
wow I am with all the commies. Thankfully I have guns god and illegal fetus killing or I would be past HoreTore.
Ok I have done some updates and added some extra things. First the main chart has been updated - SFTS is now the closest to the average of the org.
https://img131.imageshack.us/img131/...sorgwo4.th.jpg
Secondly I've added an EU/US/Other category with varying series. I haven't put names or the average into this as I'm trying to keep it less busy than the original chart - cross reference to that if you want to find yourself. If I've incorrectly categorised you I'm sorry, get back to me and I'll change it.
https://img210.imageshack.us/img210/...gionpe4.th.jpg
Last I've put together a comparison to find distances between all members. This just does a simple calculation (who can remember back to high school and finding the length of the hypotenuse?) between every member and plots it. The closer to green/the smaller the number, the closer you are, red is the opposite.
https://img515.imageshack.us/img515/...ysismv3.th.jpg
If you want to include these in your thread Divinus Arma, feel free.
Hah! That's really awesome, Productivity. My greenest is my ole buddy Lemur.
:knuddel:
This is gettin' kinda fancy, and I must say I'm impressed.
Wow, the division between EU/US is really clear.
If you'll note, Sasaki, we Americans are spread all across the spectrum, whilst you Europeans are all clustered in the bottom left quadrant. I'd say this speaks highly for our diversity of thought.
One way to explain it: The US is younger than Europe, so the anarchists have not had enough time to convert everyone to their thinking yet :laugh4:
Darnit. I'm the right-most European if that is to be believed. Fragony, please take that test ASAP!
Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -3.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.18
Good work, Productivity. :bow: I think the two unknowns on your graph (Geoffrey_S and I) are both Euros.
I wonder what is the mean difference in the horizontal and vertical axes between the Euros and the Yanks? The graph makes it look like the big difference economic, but the Euros are also lower on the social scale.
True, but none of European "rightwinger" I know have taken the test yet.Quote:
...whilst you Europeans are all clustered in the bottom left quadrant.
:grin2:Quote:
Originally Posted by econ21
Speak for yourself, old fruit. :toff:
Your political compass:
Economic Left/Right: -1.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.95
Ho-ho, hang on! We are dealing with .Org demographics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
For one thing, the French DevDave's or Fragonies don't speak English. At least not enough to participate on an English forum for recreational purposes.
I think the continental orgah demographic in general are even more skewed towards the younger and better educated than the .org in general. I.e. liberal, leftist college or recent ex-college students. The continental Xiahou's, Dons and Odins are not here either. It is one thing that I've noticed before, that the Americans here are much more varied than the Euros.
This is very interesting, Productivity. Thanks for your effort.
Mind taking the test? I'm quite curious to your result.Quote:
Originally Posted by BG
Ha! Excellent observation, Louis; we Yanks sometimes forget what part of the european population would likely ever visit such a place as totalwar.org's backroom, let alone participate.
I took HoreTore's survey twice: once last night after several beers concluding a particularly strenuous 2 weeks of work. That result:
Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -3.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.41 A Euro in disguise!
then again, this morning, sober, after watching some of the political talking-heads TV shows:
Economic Left/Right: 6.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 8.05 Ghengis Khan was a weenie compared to me!:laugh4:
My explanation for the disparity is, when drinking, I'm less likely to want to control my environment. Sober, I crave absolute control, as long as I'm the one in-charge!
Either that, or I'm a nut case.