Kingdoms SecuRom discussion - forum rules only

A quote from the closed thread:

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Originally Posted by Sapi

I'm afraid that this topic is running very close to the line on our piracy rules here at the .org; considering the purpose of this topic was purely informative, I think it's best to slap a lock on it now, before someone posts something that we'll both regret

Personally, I doubt SecuRom's a big issue, anyway - it certainly won't effect my decision to buy the game or not...

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Sapi, I don't care if you "doubt it's a big issue anyway". Some of us potential purchasers do care about that. So here's a thread to discuss the issue, and I'm asking that everyone avoid mentioning cracks and just stick to the official release by CA and what it entails.

If this thread is closed just because we want to discuss it, with no overt cracks mentioned, then I will definitely not be buying the Kingdoms expansion, and I'll be spreading that recommendation far and wide across the 'Net. I've enjoyed the CA games and I've tried to contribute to the forums here, but this is getting a wee bit Draconian, when we can't even discuss onerous copy protection as paying customers!

Now, the first question I have is whether or not CA plans to release a tool to remove the hidden SecureRom key after I uninstall the game? Does anyone have any information about that?

Stay away from discussing cracks, as happened in the other thread, and this'll be fine...

Our rules on that are quite clear, however, and aren't something that I can change, or bend...

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Originally Posted by Zenicetus

Now, the first question I have is whether or not CA plans to release a tool to remove the hidden SecureRom key after I uninstall the game? Does anyone have any information about that?

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I seriously doubt it. I do know that if Sega/CA feel the dent in their wallets because lots of people boycott the game for its Securom, only then would they seriously consider releasing a removal tool/patch. Once they hit their anticipated sales profit from the game, it's highly unlikely they would release a Securom patch out of goodwill alone and very likely the next TW game comes with the same or worse copyright protection. Vote with your money if you want Sega to know they are not getting away putting invasive protection on their games and that you don't appreciate being treated like pirates. Sorry, CA, I love this series, but I am telling my friends not to get this game until something is done about Securom.

Link to original thread: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=90934

Hasn't it already been cracked??

I mean, what is the point really?

i have already bought the game even paid 17€ more to get my hands on a us import version. until reading the now closed topic i wasnt even aware that my computer is now infected with securom...

while everything might work as usual and i had no problems playing kingdoms so far (and i use AVG!) i agree with zenicetus. i strongly dislike this bad habit of telling the customer (me) what kind of software i am allowed to run (daemon tools = the devil) by sneaking a trojan horse into my machine.

that said i wouldnt go so far to boycott kingdoms because of this. leaving aside that sega/ca already have my money its mostly the publishers fault and i just love tw games too much to not buy them immediately upon release! ;)

just :oops: and remove securom with:

winhex - brutal and risky
killbox - thats what i have used
unlocker
...

back to conquering britannia! :knight:

Yes it's cracked already (although I didn't actually try using the crack).

More importantly I don't see a clear confirmation of SecuRom 7. The guy in the original post doesn't inspire much confidence in me. So if anyone has actual proof they should post it here.

Also there seems to be a general misunderstanding about the whole issue. Some people see "hidden" registry entries and go omg CA uses SecuRom, my computer is screwed. The real thread lies in the UAService7, that is allegedly being used to get ring 3 privileges from a non-administrative account. For XP users I guess it's not a big deal since it runs under administrative account by default and most people don't bother to change that. The threat lies in the ability of malicious programs to exploit the service and get administrative privileges. This threat exists for all system services, but if Microsoft can't sort out all their security issues, how can we trust Securom developer (is it Sony?) to do better, given that the program is not even removed properly after we are done with the game?

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Originally Posted by MStumm

More importantly I don't see a clear confirmation of SecuRom 7. The guy in the original post doesn't inspire much confidence in me. So if anyone has actual proof they should post it here.

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Completely understandable. Low post count in forums generally correlates negatively with a member's perceived credibility, and vice versa. But I have no reason to lie about something like this if the game's copy protection is just a simple disc check. Maybe someone will back me up on what I said about Kingdoms using Securom v7, but if you want to find out yourself:
1. Install Kingdoms
2. Run RootkitRevealer. It should list a registry entry "hkey_current_user\software\securom\!CAUTION! NEVER ...."
3. Check timestamp to see that it coincides with installation of Kingdoms. (If it does not match and is an earlier time, Securom v7 had already been installed by another game that uses it e.g., NWN2, Bioshock, Overlord)
4. Open registry editor and you find you can't remove the entry.

Posting the address of a certain site offering cracks is against the rules, but you will see it lists the protection used by Kingdoms as Securom v7 and the original M2TW as Safedisc v4.

If it would be so bad and evil, why would companies be using it?

I think it's all blown up.

HANG ON!

Can someone post a link to this other thread for me? (NVM: just noticed that Tafferboy gives the link)

I have no idea what SecuRom is, but it doesn't sound good, and havng just received my two copies of Kingdoms from Play yesterday I want to know before I install them on my PC's.

(I may just send them back, which will be damned annoying)

It's a copy/piracy prevention system (wiki)

From Wikipedia on SecuRom_v7

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SecuROM v 7.x

Latest SecuROM Versions are all 7.x versions which are released and updated continuously.
SecuROM 7.x, if run under a non-admin user account, installs its own service called UAService7.exe — (ring 3), which works in ring 3 of the computer's operating system.
Securom has said: "it has been developed to enable users without Windows™ administrator rights the ability to access all SecuROM™ features"[1]

Known problems

* The version of SecuROM that comes with Armed Assault, S.T.A.L.K.E.R (European release only), Neverwinter Nights 2, Command & Conquer 3: Tiberium Wars (patched to v1.04), Tomb Raider Anniversary (demo and full version), Overlord and Bioshock (demo and full version) prevents the game from running at all if Process Explorer, a free tool offered by Microsoft, has been run since the previous reboot, however a workaround for this Process Explorer v10.xx bug (v9.25 is not affected) can be found here[2].

* Certain games installed using SecuROM will prevent other select games from working correctly, and will continue to do so even after game is uninstalled.[citation needed]

BioShock game and Rootkit controversy

BioShock has been incorrectly accused of installing a Rootkit, as Securom is not a rootkit. An official announcement was even made stating that no rootkit is installed[3]. Users unfamiliar with computer security have taken to use a Microsoft tool known as RootkitRevealer, which flags issues on a computer that indicate areas needing additional scrutiny. Further scrutiny indicates that this flag was raised improperly on account of a null byte in a string of characters (a perfectly legal piece of data) being found in a registry entry. Null bytes in value strings are improperly interpreted by common registry visualization tools (RegEdit) as end-of-string characters; such tools then fail to display the whole string. This is a limitation of those tools, and not a problem in itself.

Bioshock/SecuROM also accesses the internet and attempts to bypass firewall permissions at some point during its installation, and installs files in a hidden directory[4] that cannot easily be deleted [5]. Users have stated that in order to install the game, their firewalls and antivirus programs needed to to be turned off and active virus monitoring services needed to be shut down with XP restarted with these programs and services properly disabled.[6]

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Users have stated that in order to install the game, their firewalls and antivirus programs needed to to be turned off and active virus monitoring services needed to be shut down with XP restarted with these programs and services properly disabled.

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From what I heard on .com loads of people didn't have problems installing, so this is not a real issue.

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Originally Posted by sapi

Stay away from discussing cracks, as happened in the other thread, and this'll be fine...

Our rules on that are quite clear, however, and aren't something that I can change, or bend...

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Originally Posted by AussieGiant

Hasn't it already been cracked??

I mean, what is the point really?

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https://img410.imageshack.us/img410/...ailboatid5.jpg

OMG! I've just read through some of this stuff on SecuRom, including their official website.

Isn't it illegal to secretly instal software on equipment owned by another person?

I thought that was the very basis on which the law prosecuted hackers and virus writers?

Why would that law not apply to a commercial enterprise that hacks my system?

Having never in my life downloaded pirated software or films, I am now in the ironic situation of seriously contemplating just that in order to be able to play this game without compromising my system, as it seems to me that even if SecuRom's motives are honourable the fact that it exists on my PC means it can be exploited by others with less honourable intentions.

btw

am I right in saying that M2TW (main game) doesn't have any Securom?

I've only had the demo, but in a few days will buy the full version

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Originally Posted by Didz

OMG! I've just read through some of this stuff on SecuRom, including their official website.

Isn't it illegal to secretly instal software on equipment owned by another person?

I thought that was the very basis on which the law prosecuted hackers and virus writers?

Why would that law not apply to a commercial enterprise that hacks my system?

Having never in my life downloaded pirated software or films, I am now in the ironic situation of seriously contemplating just that in order to be able to play this game without compromising my system, as it seems to me that even if SecuRom's motives are honourable the fact that it exists on my PC means it can be exploited by others with less honourable intentions.

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I suspect there's a clause in the EULA which indicates what Securom is installing (and which, by clicking 'okay' to, you are accepting and waiving your right to challenge).

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btw

am I right in saying that M2TW (main game) doesn't have any Securom?

I've only had the demo, but in a few days will buy the full version

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M2TW uses Safedisc v4, iirc - I haven't heard of any complaints about it.

Kingdoms has SecuROM, M2TW has SafeDisc.
Using (illegal) methods to bypass SecuROM checks will still not get rid of the entry, as this is (as far as I understand) installed during the game's actual installation, so merely installing the game will create said entries.

As for someone exploiting SecuROM entries, you wouldn't be able to sue SEGA or CA for it, according to the M2TW EULA.

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Originally Posted by EULA

In no event shall Sega or its licensors be liable for special, incidental, or consequential damages resulting from possession, use or malfunction of the Game Software, including without limitation the risks connected with lost profit, damage to property, lost data, loss of goodwill, console, computer or handheld device failure, errors and lost business or other information as a result of possession, use or malfunction of the Game Software, or personal injuries, even if Sega has been advised of the possibility of such loss or damages.

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As SecuROM supposedly would be part of "Game Software".

I do agree with the person who posted in the earlier topic, that corporations should reward good behavior instead of punish bad behavior.
Afterall, if they were to include a great, illustrated, colored and detailed manual as well as say some bonus material like figurines, fancy CD packaging or cloth maps, there would be more incentive to buy the game.

ah OK

I was looking again at a trailer for Kingdoms, and just feel upset that I might not be able to use those new units, i.e byzantine flamer thrower troops, if I can't get the expansion due to the securom

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Originally Posted by FactionHeir

As for someone exploiting SecuROM entries, you wouldn't be able to sue SEGA or CA for it, according to the M2TW EULA.
...
As SecuROM supposedly would be part of "Game Software".

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Well, I don't know about EULA's. Software vendors tend to put loads of crap in there of which half probably will not pass any sane court.

I am pretty sure that if you can prove that an intrusive software that was installed on your computer caused you real damages and you can clearly show what was the damages made, a stupid one-click agreement that no one ever reads won't convince a judge with half a brain that everything is alright.

Software vendors can put anything they like in those EULA's (and they often do) there got to be some line drawn to what these EULA's entitle them to. What about sending your credit card and then wiping your hard drive? That is allowed according to some EULA's

On the other hand, I can put a softwarevendorlicenseagreement.txt in the root of my c: drive saying that by installing software on this computer, the computer owner (me) is granted the permission to bypass any copyright protection and send the software to any of my friends...:laugh4:

- barvaz

Well, feel free to take it up in court - I can't see the expense being worth it, though :laugh4:

Maybe sapi is right.

I'll simply avoid to buy and play Kingdoms.

SecuROM will most likely not stop you from being able to play the game. It can happen in rare cases, though.

Anyways, this is the wikipedia short definition of a rootkit:

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A rootkit is a general description of a set of programs which work to subvert control of an operating system from its legitimate operators. Usually, a rootkit will obscure its installation and attempt to prevent its removal through a subversion of standard system security.

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Looking at what SecuROM does: Installing without you noticing, stopping you from removing it, it exactly fits the bill and is a rootkit in itself even if it might not necessarily mean any direct or immediate harm to your system, the breach of integrity can already be seen as abusive behaviour. I actually wonder if one should sue computer game companies because of this and if I had enough money I probably would try it (the German courts are a bit more on the side of people's rights than e.g. the US ones)

As for EULAs: I completely agree, it's the same case as the disclaimers that a lot of sites used to put up that they're not responsible for content of links. They are, as has been ruled by courts from different countries (although there may be some where they aren't). So writing any ape**** in the EULA doesn't help. I could even argue that a one-click agreement is no binding contract if the content of said would-be contract is 90% useless junk.

FactionHeir: Very good point, I totally agree. Instead of buying a copy protection, SEGA should invest the money into a good manual and high-quality packaging. That'd be more of an incentive to buy the game. I guess a SecuROM license costs well more than 100,000 dollars.


Besides, the worrying tendency of only being able to install your game on one machine that came up with BioShock is actively driving me crazy. This alone is enough reason for me to not buy the game (because my computer won't be able to handle it very well anyways, so why bother). If I buy the game I should have the right to play it on more than one machine, or with a few friends. If they like it, they'll buy it afterwards. If they never get to try it they won't buy it at all, it's that simple.

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Originally Posted by alpaca

Besides, the worrying tendency of only being able to install your game on one machine that came up with BioShock is actively driving me crazy. This alone is enough reason for me to not buy the game (because my computer won't be able to handle it very well anyways, so why bother). If I buy the game I should have the right to play it on more than one machine, or with a few friends. If they like it, they'll buy it afterwards. If they never get to try it they won't buy it at all, it's that simple.

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Its not so much that, as the fact that if you upgrade your hardware (e.g. new mobo or new HDD), or buy a new machine, that counts as one of your installs. In theory, if you uninstall the game from the previous machine first, it's supposed to give you that install back. However, people have been testing this and finding that it doesnt work. Also, if you suffer a HDD crash, you arent going to be able to uninstall the previous copy first anyway.

Apparently due to customer complaints the publishers of bioshock have extended the total number of installs from 2 to 5. Big deal.

Publisher: "Thanks for buying our game, now we're going to count to 10, and then kick you in the balls"
Customer: "Can i have my money back please?"
Publisher: "Since we value you as a customer, we are happy to announce that we are going to wait until we have counted to 20 before kicking you in the balls"
Customer: "Um.... thanks?"

I am getting slightly off-topic, admittedly, since this limitation doesnt (as far as i know) apply to kingdoms. But its a very worrying trend. Maybe by the time empires is released that sort of thing will be the norm.

Publishers should really be compelled by law to provide information on the kind of copy protection (and if there are limited installs, as in Bioshock) they are using on their software, at least in print on the box itself. Customers have the right to know first-hand if a product is going to be bundled with intrusive software, not learn about it themselves the hard way or on a forum.

In short, if people's decision on whether to purchase a game is at all influenced by the copy protection it uses, I think publishers owe it to us to convey that information clearly. I myself will not knowingly buy any game using Starforce and Securom v7 no matter if it's the best ever, so my decision very well hinges on type of copy protection alone.

That said, I'm not hopeful at all on Sega or CA releasing a patch to remove Securom from Kingdoms. Unless a whole lot of people are refusing to buy the game because of Securom, I don't see that happening. Not many even know Kingdoms is using Securom in the first place or would care if they did.

But basically the only thing this SecuRom does is add some not important line to your registry, and make sure you can only install the game an x number of times? Giving you back an install, if one un-installs the game ?

If that's all it is, what's the big deal really ?

:balloon2:

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Originally Posted by Dutch_guy

But basically the only thing this SecuRom does is add some not important line to your registry, and make sure you can only install the game an x number of times? Giving you back an install, if one un-installs the game ?

If that's all it is, what's the big deal really ?

:balloon2:

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That's only for Bioshock, Kingdoms doesn't have an install limit, as far as I know.

So it's even less of a big deal, unless someone can provide proof of Securom itself actually damaging a computer or making a game unplayable.

glad to see this topic

I've neglected some warnings before and I'm simply not putting my tool-heavy system at risk cause of some copyprotection system.

All I can do is hope publishers feel this where it hurts them most and eventually change their ways ...

(I have like €200,- worth of games here that could just as well be binned as if I install them I can do a OS-reinstall afterwards, in certain cases without even being able to play the game without installing from a fresh OS-install, fun ....)


G

Hmmmm is it just me or is this being blown out of proportion?

I mean games like Bioshock can be an issue but there aren't tons of people out there that are having trouble installing/uninstalling the game now are they?

Plus I suspect a large number of the people who post and complain here want to pirate the game instead of buying it.

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Originally Posted by nameless

Plus I suspect a large number of the people who post and complain here want to pirate the game instead of buying it.

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Hmmm...no, not really. That is what so ridiculous about copy protection. The people who want to pirate the game have absolutely no reason to complain, they go and get the crack and are done with in about 5 minutes.

The people who have reason to complain are those who want to do the right thing and have a 100% legitimate system and are punished with this crapware sitting on their systems without the ability to remove it.

But most people don't care and call those who do "paranoids" and "blowing things our of proportions". It is the same with copy protection, DRM, DMCA, patents, privacy concerns, fair use, etc etc. Most people don't care as long as their systems/gadgets/games/movies/music appear to be working reasonably for them. Thing is, there is a thin line between this "it works for me" attitude and the point when your game stops working, your rights being violated or your privacy being breached. Some choose to take more active approach and protest before it reaches that point.

- barvaz

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Originally Posted by nameless

Plus I suspect a large number of the people who post and complain here want to pirate the game instead of buying it.

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Way to miss the entire point. If i wanted to pirate the game the copy protection wouldnt be causing any problems because the it will have been removed from the game entirely. It wont have cause any inconvenience to the pirates because the game will have been cracked within a few hours of release, if not before release.

The whole point is that the copy protection only hurts the paying customers. In other words: THE PIRATED VERSION IS A BETTER PRODUCT. More likely to work, less hassle, less intrusive crap on your hard drive. Publishers should be giving us incentives to buy their products, or at the very least not putting us off buying them.

I preordered kingdoms and its sitting on my desk next to my PC as i type this. If i'd known about the securom issues i'd certainly have thought twice about ordering the game. I'm holding off installing it until i've checked out the situation more (meh, i dont have time to play it this week anyway :brood: ). I'm definitely not buying bioshock - but i hear the pirated version doesnt have the 2 install limit (not saying i'm going to download it, just illustrating my point).

If somebody buys a game and it wont work on their machine because of the copy protection - or it stops something else working - or they upgrade one too many times and it wont install any more - or the company goes bust and the license server goes down and thus they cant play it any more - thats basically going to drive that person into the arms of the pirates. They'll download a crack to get the game they paid for working. And next time maybe they'll think "why bother buying the game if all its going to do is give me hassle - i'll just download the cracked version, at least i know it'll work"

Note: none of the above is an endorsement of piracy - i just think the game publishers are shooting themselves - and us - in the foot.

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Originally Posted by Daveybaby

Way to miss the entire point. If i wanted to pirate the game the copy protection wouldnt be causing any problems because the it will have been removed from the game entirely. It wont have cause any inconvenience to the pirates because the game will have been cracked within a few hours of release, if not before release.

The whole point is that the copy protection only hurts the paying customers. In other words: THE PIRATED VERSION IS A BETTER PRODUCT. More likely to work, less hassle, less intrusive crap on your hard drive. Publishers should be giving us incentives to buy their products, or at the very least not putting us off buying them.

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I was going to post again, but Daveybaby wrote my point precisely.

One more thing: if the Securom changes the system at the time of the game installation, piracy won't protect you, since you can remove whatever you want but have your registry (sp?) altered from the beginning; anyway if someone wanted to pirate it he woudn't post here the fact, that seems evident enough to me.

The big deal for me is the fact that this SecuRom installs software on my pc without either my consent or even without giving me an option not to install it. I'm using the installer of the game, not the SecuRom installer. So it would be basic courtesy to tell me it's going to install another program (I had the same gripe with starforce btw). This actually is the behavior of a VIRUS!! I will not buy any software that installs some random cr@p on my pc without me knowing or allowing it and that on top of it all is (nearly) impossible to remove.

Up until now i was still considering buying Kingdoms. It's the first in the TW series which i wasn't really sure whether to buy it. But this definitely tipped the scales. I'm won't buy Kingdoms if securom stays.

let me get this straight... it says it will update continuasly... but what if yur pc has no internet...?

i wont buy it now... i made up my mind

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Originally Posted by The Stranger

let me get this straight... you can only install the game on 1 pc?

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You can only install Bioshock on one PC (well actually 2).

However, it uses the same copy protection technology as kingdoms, so this is something which we may see in future TW games (e.g. empires).

Some of you seem to be making a mountain out of a molehill. You know securom is there, so it's not going to be a surprise if it installs it, and you legally bought the game, so it's not going to really actually do anything.

Some of you are going to deprive yourself of an awesome expansion because they didn't add an extra "Yes | Back | Cancel" to the installation?

Seems like a pretty frivolous thing to make a huge stand on. You are missing out big time one an awesome game.

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Originally Posted by The Stranger

let me get this straight... it says it will update continuasly... but what if yur pc has no internet...?

i wont buy it now... i made up my mind

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No, you can install it as often as you want. It was an off-topic post that I made about copy protection trends in general (see Bioshock) and I probably should have known better that there are hundreds of people out there who just don't read properly :inquisitive:

Graphic: This is not about the game or whether it impedes how I can play a game, it's about a general unbalance in how the game industry looks upon its customers. They kind of reversed the presumption of innocence by treating everyone as a pirate in the first place and punishing them for something they didn't actually do. I just can't understand there are actually people who applaud them for that insolent behavior...

Besides, you could also argue people are buying the game under false pretences because nowhere does it say that it's going to install any additional third-party software on your system that you didn't want to buy.

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You can only install Bioshock on one PC (well actually 2).

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It's been changed to 5.

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Originally Posted by Graphic

Some of you seem to be making a mountain out of a molehill. You know securom is there, so it's not going to be a surprise if it installs it, and you legally bought the game, so it's not going to really actually do anything.

Some of you are going to deprive yourself of an awesome expansion because they didn't add an extra "Yes | Back | Cancel" to the installation?

Seems like a pretty frivolous thing to make a huge stand on. You are missing out big time one an awesome game.

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Exactly, as a classmate told me once, if you've done nothing wrong, you've got nothing to worry about.

Now if Kingdoms required installations on the level of stuff like Quake, Half-life 2, Bioshock, etc. Then yes I think that would be an issue.

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Hmmm...no, not really. That is what so ridiculous about copy protection. The people who want to pirate the game have absolutely no reason to complain, they go and get the crack and are done with in about 5 minutes.

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Yes really, I've seen posts on various forums in regards to games asking about cracks over the years and in such idiotic form. Especially those who don't know how to crack but want to know how or where to find it. Like I said, there are much worse games out there that make it a *#)(@*$)(#@*$ pain to install. Relatively, Kingdoms is nothing. Installation done in 30 minutes tops and running fine and dandy.

To be honest, I'd think games like Supreme Commander(Which I own) and Galactic Civilization II are decent in that they don't require the DVD/CD to play the game at all. But then again every game is different (Unless CA provides monthly updates to the game which would be weird). I have other ideas on proper copy right protections though this isn't the point.

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Originally Posted by alpaca

Graphic: This is not about the game or whether it impedes how I can play a game, it's about a general unbalance in how the game industry looks upon its customers. They kind of reversed the presumption of innocence by treating everyone as a pirate in the first place and punishing them for something they didn't actually do. I just can't understand there are actually people who applaud them for that insolent behavior...

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How are you being punished? It checks to make sure you have the original disc. You bought the game. You have the original disc. Securom harms you in no way whatsoever. I'm not applauding them or criticizing them for including Securom as it means nothing to someone who bought the game legally, especially since it's so easily circumvented anyways if you have such a huge problem with it.

It just seems like an arbitrary stand to take just for the sake of taking a stand. Sticking it to the man is fun but come on, it just adds a registry entry and checks if you have an original copy, what is the huge problem with that?

The issue isn't that it checks for disk its that it embeds itself in your system and requires you to jump through hoops to remove.

The problems are:
1) It hides itself on your computer.
2) You aren't told that it is put on there.
3) Its pain in the butt to remove.
4) You're required to deactivate your computer's security because
a) It needs to bypass your firewall.
b) Your antivirus will flag it as a trojan virus because it acts liek a trojan.

I wish it was the old 'you must have CD and CD key to play' or even steam which isn't as ridiculous.

I don't have a big issue with DRM but its just badly implemented. Its almost as bad as Sony's first attempt at protecting music with freaking root kits.

I also think the issue some people are conserned about is that securom will lie on your pc, even after you uninstall the game, and a skilled hacker can exploit this and gain access to private information (bank accounts, pin numbers etc.) I've pre-ordered the game, but I will not install it until we get some fix for this.

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4) You're required to deactivate your computer's security because
a) It needs to bypass your firewall.
b) Your antivirus will flag it as a trojan virus because it acts liek a trojan.

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Cut the internet connection when installing, what's the problem.

Anyway, I asked someone I know who has the game, he did not have to deactivate any firewall. And since I installed the anti virus program on his PC I made sure it daily checks for viruses on the background, and it found nothing.

Next to that I asked him to do a rootkit search, again, nothing was found.


So, you get the choice:
1. SecuRom is not included in the game and this thread is a lie.
2. SecuRom is completely harmless and this thread is not needed.


You get the pick, choose wisely.

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Originally Posted by antisocialmunky

You're required to deactivate your computer's security because
a) It needs to bypass your firewall.

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If I remember correctly it's just one type of firewall that you need to shut down.
I can't remember which firewall it was but I remember the same firewall was causing trouble for those that played Mount & Blade where the firewall caused the game to shut down because of copy protection.

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Originally Posted by Stig

Cut the internet connection when installing, what's the problem.

Anyway, I asked someone I know who has the game, he did not have to deactivate any firewall. And since I installed the anti virus program on his PC I made sure it daily checks for viruses on the background, and it found nothing.

Next to that I asked him to do a rootkit search, again, nothing was found.


So, you get the choice:
1. SecuRom is not included in the game and this thread is a lie.
2. SecuRom is completely harmless and this thread is not needed.


You get the pick, choose wisely.

---

Well, SecuRom is NOT a rootkit, Sony's previous attempt at a DRM for music CDs was. This may or may not be the reason why that rumor is going around. Also, as I did install bioshock, you need to have an internet connection during the install to update it to the latest patch(kinda like when you're installing windows). I don't know what happens if there is no connection.

You only need your internet connection on when your run it the first time so Securom can access its database and register with it. This requires you to let it get through your firewall, which is pretty much like steam or anything else, not a big problem, my wording might have exaggerated it a little bit but it needs to be allowed to send through your firewall.

Now, I ran into a problem with AVG since it kept flagging and quarantining it as a Dos based trojan virus(both the patch from the install stored in temp internet and the excutable). I only discovered this after I saw that the exe had disappeared. Infact, everytime on start up I had to restore it from AVG's virus vault to play the game until eventaully the exe got deleted by the antivirus accidentally(needed to use Restore AS instead of Restore).

I have a hard time believing that this virus originated from anywhere besides 2k game's patch or the Bioshock install as it was only present in those two file.s

And you didn't even touch on two of the most important things:

THERE'S NO EASY WAY TO UNINSTALL IT AND YOU'RE NOT INFORMED OF ITS PRESENCE.

On top of that, with Bioshock you only had two installs. If you lost your connection while trying to uninstall or you format your drive without installing, you're out one install. This doesn't seem to be the case with Kingdoms.

My argument is that this method is a poor implmentation of DRM. You can't see it, you have a hard time getting rid of it, it actually has conflicts with multiple games using securom under certain circumstances, and its just a piss poor way of doing things go get a Steam license - atleast they know how to do it right. Hell, it's even damaged 2k Game's mindshare and for what? A system that will STILL be cracked.

@alpaca, i wasnt replying to a post of yours... i thought securom had something to di with that untill i read another post... i quickly edited my post after that... so my problem is not that i dont read properly... i just reply before i read and edit later... which is worse is up to you.

btw if its easily circumvented why implement it... those who want to get rid of it can do so easy... so why add it

second problem... i think its way to expensive... bioshock costs the same but is a full game... im not paying 40$ for an expansion that might and probably will turn into a dissapointment... ill wait till it costs half or less...

@ASM: so to install bioshock you need to have internet? is this the same for kingdoms? because i dont have internet on my gamepc.

I just installed Kingdom (the worst installer i've ever seen) and looked more into the Securom issue. Sure enough I did find the "hidden" registry entries but the good news is that I can't find the UAServer7 mentioned in wikipedia.

So to me it looks like Kingdom's version of Securom merely checks for correct CD and creates strange registry entries, but doesn't install any actual software that I can see. Unless someone shows evidence otherwise I think there is no cause for concern.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Graphic

Some of you seem to be making a mountain out of a molehill. You know securom is there, so it's not going to be a surprise if it installs it, and you legally bought the game, so it's not going to really actually do anything.

Some of you are going to deprive yourself of an awesome expansion because they didn't add an extra "Yes | Back | Cancel" to the installation?

Seems like a pretty frivolous thing to make a huge stand on. You are missing out big time one an awesome game.

---

I'm not sure you are right.

According to the Wiki reference to Securom there are already a number of known issues arising from allowing this software to invade your system.

Quote:

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Known problems

* The version of SecuROM that comes with Armed Assault, S.T.A.L.K.E.R (European release only), Neverwinter Nights 2, Command & Conquer 3: Tiberium Wars (patched to v1.04), Tomb Raider Anniversary (demo and full version), Overlord and Bioshock (demo and full version) prevents the game from running at all if Process Explorer, a free tool offered by Microsoft, has been run since the previous reboot, however a workaround for this Process Explorer v10.xx bug (v9.25 is not affected) can be found here[2].

* Certain games installed using SecuROM will prevent other select games from working correctly, and will continue to do so even after game is uninstalled.[citation needed]

---

More to the point, as this software cannot be uninstalled, and as you the owner of the PC have no control whatsoever over what it does, then by implication you cannot control or prevent what it does to your system after you have allowed it to be installed.

Presumably, it must update itself by periodic downloads and upgrades, either dynamically or as a result of future game instals. That means that Sony or indeed anyone who once had access to how Securom works could simply expliot the presence of this software to gather information or interfere with your use of your PC.

Its bad enough that the vast majority of spyware that screws up our systems performance is paid for my commercial enterprises, but this peice of software is nothing short of a commercially sponsored system hack, and I'm certainly not going to knowingly allow it onto my PC, just becuase I want to play a game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Graphic

Some of you seem to be making a mountain out of a molehill. You know securom is there, so it's not going to be a surprise if it installs it, and you legally bought the game, so it's not going to really actually do anything.

---

Well, actually it does do something -- it would leave a hidden registry key on my computer even after I've uninstalled the game, which may (or may not, but the potential is there) add a future backdoor to malware. Or maybe it will just trigger alarms in some future AV software I decide to use, which would also be a pain.

It's sheer arrogance to treat a customer's computer like that. I don't mind CP methods that go away when I'm finished with a game and uninstall it. This is different.

Quote:

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Some of you are going to deprive yourself of an awesome expansion because they didn't add an extra "Yes | Back | Cancel" to the installation?

Seems like a pretty frivolous thing to make a huge stand on. You are missing out big time one an awesome game.

---

Well, you make your decision and I'll make mine. It's a question of "how much do I want to put up with, and is it worth it?"

I actually bought Bioshock after hearing that 2K will remove the 5 activation limit after the main sales window expires, and that they'll be releasing a key removal tool for use when you uninstall the game. That's more than CA has done, so far. Unless we hear differently, they're planning on just leaving that hidden key on your computer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Stranger

@alpaca, i wasnt replying to a post of yours... i thought securom had something to di with that untill i read another post... i quickly edited my post after that... so my problem is not that i dont read properly... i just reply before i read and edit later... which is worse is up to you.

btw if its easily circumvented why implement it... those who want to get rid of it can do so easy... so why add it

second problem... i think its way to expensive... bioshock costs the same but is a full game... im not paying 40$ for an expansion that might and probably will turn into a dissapointment... ill wait till it costs half or less...

@ASM: so to install bioshock you need to have internet? is this the same for kingdoms? because i dont have internet on my gamepc.

---

I'm not sure, those are just my experiences. You will need it to Securom verify it. If Kingdoms has none of the invisible install and registry entries, then I'm fine with it. Too bad there's not too much info on it other than 'securom is on Kingdoms.' Personally as a Computer Scientist, I blame Sony for having a implementation that's absolutely pathetic :no:.

what i dont understand is why people with the legit copy have to suffer intrusive software which may potentially cause harm to their computer.

if any pirate copy was made of the game i would assume the cracker would remove the security software so whats the point of having. basically its only going to be on the pc's of people who buy their games anyway.

and on the sumject on end user licenses

in the UK and i presume the EU siginig license doens not necessarily mean the vendor can take away your consumer rights. and limitaiton clauses have to be pretty well highlights so the consumer for it be applicable and the way u accept a EULA by clickinng a button would not hold up in a British court. not from what i know about contract law anyway.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nameless

Exactly, as a classmate told me once, if you've done nothing wrong, you've got nothing to worry about.

---

Um ... takes deep breath ... you'd think that would be the case, but it turns out not to be.

I bought a perfectly legal copy of Silent Hunter III. Unknown to me, it had a copy protection program called Starforce bundled with it. Over a long period of time this caused problems which, at a conservative estimate, I spent 20 hours over. I normally bill my time at around $80 an hour as a computer consultant but I don't expect Ubisoft or Starforce are likely to recompense me :no:

Since almost nothing could be as bad as Starforce, I don't expect SecuROM will be. But I'll never knowingly put copy protection crap on my machines again, so the Kingdoms that I'm expecting any day now is going straight back to Amazon. I suggest CA/SEGA search the Web and read about the decision by Ubisoft, giving in to customer demand, not to use Starforce in Silent Hunter IV.

Quote:

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To be honest, I'd think games like Supreme Commander(Which I own) and Galactic Civilization II are decent in that they don't require the DVD/CD to play the game at all. But then again every game is different (Unless CA provides monthly updates to the game which would be weird). I have other ideas on proper copy right protections though this isn't the point.

---

There we can agree - Stardock (GalCiv) have a wonderful attitude towards their customers. If only all games companies did.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by crpcarrot

what i dont understand is why people with the legit copy have to suffer intrusive software which may potentially cause harm to their computer.

if any pirate copy was made of the game i would assume the cracker would remove the security software so whats the point of having. basically its only going to be on the pc's of people who buy their games anyway.

and on the sumject on end user licenses

in the UK and i presume the EU siginig license doens not necessarily mean the vendor can take away your consumer rights. and limitaiton clauses have to be pretty well highlights so the consumer for it be applicable and the way u accept a EULA by clickinng a button would not hold up in a British court. not from what i know about contract law anyway.

---

Thank you for your expert advice.

ok having read theother thread can someone confirm what the problems with AVG are

i havent baught kindoms yet and havent decided if i want to, but if it is gonna cause problems with my antivirus software i certainly wont buy it.

isnt having to tun off your antivirus software iteself too much of a risk in a pc with broadband??

Quote:

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Originally Posted by crpcarrot

ok having read theother thread can someone confirm what the problems with AVG are

i havent baught kindoms yet and havent decided if i want to, but if it is gonna cause problems with my antivirus software i certainly wont buy it.

isnt having to tun off your antivirus software iteself too much of a risk in a pc with broadband??

---

Heh well your the computer consultant :P
Although personally I've had quite a bit of experience with dealing with viruses on my own computer. If your worried about the virus in that situation then that means the virus must be a process. If it's a process it's usually quite a bit easier to detect as well.

TBH I don't get viruses much anymore and the ones I do get are easy to get rid of. Although I suspect if a virus has a line "Detect when AVG is turned off" it'd probably show up on the AVG scanner easily.

For the people who dont care what the copy protection software does to their machine, a timely link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6968234.stm

Yes its Sony again. This is the second time their shoddily written DRM software has compromised the PCs of their paying customers.

Some history:
Sony slated over anti-piracy CD
The rootkit of all evil?
Hackers are exploiting flaws
Viruses use Sony anti-piracy CDs

See if you can guess which company owns securom, the DRM software that comes with kingdoms. Go on, have a guess. I'll give you a clue - it begins with the letter 'S'.

@ darkabiter

"Thank you for your expert advice."

its not expert adice i'm not a lawyer. as i said not from what i know about contract law.

about virus

well i'm not worried only about virus' but also hackers and spyware. i use my pc for a lot of my financial activities as well and also have a lot of sesitive information saved on it. i am no pc expert but i rather not have my pc plugged into the internet without a firewall or virus protection.

Note to all: Starforce is not SecuRom. They are very different tools, with very different methods of achieving their goals, and comparison is worse than useless - it actively invites misinterpretation of the facts.

Likewise, the link Daveybaby posted is to a story about the Sony Music DRM debacle, which actually did install a rootkit. SecuRom does not.

Well, I bought the game, as I was going to.
And I installed it, as I was going to.
And just for you guys I've run a virusscan (using AVG, as I use AVG).
And I found nothing.
And I scanned on spyware:
Nothing
Rootkits:
Nothing

True enough sapi. But both examples are good illustrations of what can go wrong, and why we shouldnt blindly trust this stuff to not do any damage to our machines.

I'm going to bow out of this topic now, as i've been getting a bit soap-box-ey. :embarassed: Also i'm being a total hypocrite, as i'm almost certainly going to install the game tonight regardless.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MStumm

I just installed Kingdom (the worst installer i've ever seen) and looked more into the Securom issue. Sure enough I did find the "hidden" registry entries but the good news is that I can't find the UAServer7 mentioned in wikipedia.

So to me it looks like Kingdom's version of Securom merely checks for correct CD and creates strange registry entries, but doesn't install any actual software that I can see. Unless someone shows evidence otherwise I think there is no cause for concern.

---

Look under C:\Documents and Settings\(your user account) or All Users\Application Data. See a folder called "Securom" on it?

Now make sure you have first done this: Go to Tools>Folder Options>View>Under "Hidden files and folders" check "Show hidden files and folders". Also, uncheck "Hide protected operating system files".

Open the "Securom" folder. Don't be too surprised if you see...nothing. There are files in there that have been installed by Securom, but because they have intentionally been made to contain character errors, Windows explorer cannot recognize them and so there is no way to delete them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stig

Rootkits:Nothing

---

Did you use Micosoft's RootkitRevealer? It has been well-documented from Bioshock that a registry entry is created by Securom v7 that is identified as a rootkit. It may not be a real rootkit, but RootkitRevealer lists it as such for a good reason: it resembles a rootkit and has some of its properties.

Ask yourself whether you are comfortable having something that emulates a rootkit on your system that you can't remove. The argument that Securom is harmless and "not a big deal" is also subject to the fact that we don't completely know as of yet what it can do and whether hackers find a way to exploit it in the future. Can anybody be absolutely sure private information is not sent to the Securom servers? Would you fully trust copy protection developed by Sony after their music DRM debacle?

The bottomline is that publishers have no right to sell you a product using software that installs itself without consent and which you cannot remove if you choose to. I don't see how anybody can condone the use of such intrusive copy protection when the right to customise the system you own is infringed upon.

Quote:

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Open the "Securom" folder. Don't be too surprised if you see...nothing. There are files in there that have been installed by Securom, but because they have intentionally been made to contain character errors, Windows explorer cannot recognize them and so there is no way to delete them.

---

If that's your only issue, you should easily be able to use the cmd tools to delete them... (cd C:\Documents and Settings\[whatever]\Securom\; dir; del [x]). It'd probably stop the game from working, though...

Quote:

---

Did you use Micosoft's RootkitRevealer? It has been well-documented from Bioshock that a registry entry is created by Securom v7 that is identified as a rootkit. It may not be a real rootkit, but RootkitRevealer lists it as such for a good reason: it resembles a rootkit and has some of its properties.

---

Have a quick read of the sysinternals page on rootkitrevealer; by no means does a hit mean that it's a rootkit...

The beef is that the game has been cracked 4 days ago and the ppl who stole the game don't have to deal with securom issues cos the crack stops it from installing on their comp. The only ones left with the unwanted baby are the ones who actually paid for the game which to me is totally nuts.

I'm glad to see such a healthy debate about this issue. Unfortunately, it doesnt amount to a hill of beans. Most gamemakers (and other software producers) continue to believe that they have the right to install programs on your PC without your knowledge or with deceptive tactics. There are two obvious answers to the problem; dont buy the games, and legislation. Neither of which is gonna happen since: 1) most people are not savy enough to know what has been installed and the potential problems so they buy the game, 2) since the "security" being installed is kept hidden from the owner, many of those who would not install the game will buy it first then will find the problem (which is what happened to me with some earlier games that didnt like alcohol), 3) and Congress is pathetically bamboozled by anything remotely technical so nothing will happen from that side.

Personally, Securom and Kingdoms is not an issue for me since CA lost me as a customer with M2TW. Now I just have another reason not to buy their games. I'm just hoping that someone will care enough to completely change M2TW in a mod sometime in the future. Given the enormity of that task, though, I doubt it will happen.

Quote:

---

Did you use Micosoft's RootkitRevealer?

---

AVG anti-rootkit

afterall, a rootkit is a rootkit

Quote:

---

Ask yourself whether you are comfortable having something that emulates a rootkit on your system that you can't remove. The argument that Securom is harmless and "not a big deal" is also subject to the fact that we don't completely know as of yet what it can do and whether hackers find a way to exploit it in the future.

---

Can't be bothered with it.
And if hackers try to attack me I'll personalyl pay them a visit, shoving their keyboards .... you get the point.

I get about 100 high rated attacks a day (being on the university network), and close to 2000 others. And none ever made it past my first line of defence.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gaius Terentius Varro

The beef is that the game has been cracked 4 days ago and the ppl who stole the game don't have to deal with securom issues cos the crack stops it from installing on their comp. The only ones left with the unwanted baby are the ones who actually paid for the game which to me is totally nuts.

---

exactly why i dont understand why they include these software i the first place.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by crpcarrot

exactly why i dont understand why they include these software i the first place.

---

For the same reason as why on some housedoors it says that that house is protected electronically.
You'll get in by throwing in a window, but it can scare people off.

one thing really upsets me that i am not a person who understands all that technical things you are talking about, i am an artists. and i enjoy playing total war games.
i always buy original tw games never use cracked ones because i think it is good thing to support company who has developed something unique - (for me total war series are unique because it is only game that makes you think as a roman or medieval person and at the same time entertains you)..
and than i read all that stuff about secorum, and i am bloody disappointed, because i have planned to play tw kingdoms until empires hits shelves and i do not want to format my C drive or install windows again, because the info i am reading in the thread kind of scares me... i think many people are like me, who ar not experts in computers and windows and that is why they do not post in this thread but they read the thread and they are starting to doubt - to buy or not to buy...
sorry for my english, hope you people understood my thougths

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stig

For the same reason as why on some housedoors it says that that house is protected electronically.
You'll get in by throwing in a window, but it can scare people off.

---

I'm sure you are right when it comes to their motives.

The trouble, to continue the metaphor, is that they are painting the notice that their house is protected on MY house walls, 98% of burglars get in through doors anyway, not windows, and the paint they are using might cause structural problems to my walls in the future.

But it's no big deal to me at least. I'm enjoying playing Lands to Conquer so I'll just return Kingdoms anyway. And if SEGA/CA think that copy protection is more important than losing the odd customer for Empire:TW, that's their call.

I have a moral objection to downloaded cracked versions of games; it's something I'd never do. So that means I'll just have to do without. Kind of ironic that.

sorry for being ignorant but does Securom actually do anything to your computer, I haven't noticed anything different

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bob_the_great

sorry for being ignorant but does Securom actually do anything to your computer, I haven't noticed anything different

---

Nah, nothing. It's a myth

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tafferboy

Look under C:\Documents and Settings\(your user account) or All Users\Application Data. See a folder called "Securom" on it?

Open the "Securom" folder. Don't be too surprised if you see...nothing. There are files in there that have been installed by Securom, but because they have intentionally been made to contain character errors, Windows explorer cannot recognize them and so there is no way to delete them.

---

Thanks now I see it. The file names are garbled but they are still visible in vista. The date corresponds to the day I installed Kingdoms. If you are interested here is the readme file that's there as well:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PLEASE DO NOT DELETE THE FILES IN THIS FOLDER BECAUSE YOU MIGHT LOOSE ESSENTIAL DIGITAL RIGHTS.
READ BELOW
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Technical Information for the PC Administrator:

The files securom_v7_01.dat and securom_v7_01.bak have been created during the installation of a SecuROM protected application.
It guarantees more user convenience because the original disc does not have to be in the local drive at all times anymore.
It is necessary for copy protected CDs, demo versions and protected software downloaded from the Internet.
The file contains your licences for all products which are SecuROM protected, therefore it will not be deleted automatically.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PLEASE DO NOT DELETE THE FILE BECAUSE YOU MIGHT LOOSE ESSENTIAL DIGITAL RIGHTS.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The information contained in securom_v7_01.dat will not be transferred to any other computer without your permission.

This security system is connected with a MS Windows Service called "SecuROM User Access Service".
This module is started automatically when launching a protected application if the user is logged in with Windows administrator rights.
In case users do not have administrator rights we recommend to keep it running.

See www.securom.com for further information

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

However these seem to be just data files, not software. I renamed this folder, installed the crack and the game appears to be working without any new services starting up, so its probably safe to delete this folder.

The whole point is that YOU CAN*T delete those files (the hidden ones with the nonsense name) EVER cos they won't let you since windows can't find them (win XP SP2 here) unless you DL a third party software like Unlocker (from http://ccollomb.free.fr/unlocker/ which i can't guarantee as SAFE software) but then your game won't work so you're back to the part of getting a crack which really makes me mad. I wonder how many of the ppl that were gonna steal the game got put off the 2 day wait (untill the scene's groups that were competing to be first to crack it = a matter of days) and bought this game as opposed to the ppl who were gonna buy the game but got put of by securom and abstained/got the pirate copy of the game.
Just look at the mess Bioshock is now.

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...nix/00311b.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bob_the_great

sorry for being ignorant but does Securom actually do anything to your computer, I haven't noticed anything different

---

It is a security risk. As far as I know SecuROM does not significantly affect normal operation of your PC, that is to say it does not slow your PC down or use resources like CPU-time or RAM to a significant decree.

It is very hard at the moment say for sure what level of security risk SecuROM is general or what is the risk scenario in installing Kingdoms. I far as I know, it is not even known for certain what version of SecuROM Kingdoms has. In highly general terms, the risk seems low to moderate.

What is known is that SecuROM, regardless of version, has bugs and design flaws - all software has. No security flaw has been widely reported resulting from those bugs, nor has any attack been seen in the wild targeting SecuROM v7.x. That does not mean that SecuROM is safe now, although it likely is, but more significantly it says nothing about whether or nor the SecuROM installed on your PC remains safe. As SecuROM is difficult to detect, monitor and remove, you need to be concerned about SecuROMs safety for the lifespan of your current operating system installation (which often equals the lifespan of your PC). You can limit your exposure by diligently following computer security reporting. If you do, I would say the risks will remain low. If you don't follow the reporting then you are in effect betting that SecuROM is made by either really, really good programmers or at least very lucky ones.

(I had a whole paragraph here about UAService, but it got sort of technical without actually saying anything interesting, so I cut it out.)

In the end you must ask yourself two questions:
1) The risk being what it is, am I willing to accept it? While this is nowhere near the worst risk factor you must assume just to use a PC, remember that risks are cumulative.
2) This risk is unnecessary and it is being forced as a part of a trade by the other party for their gain (as perceived by them). Does this piss me off? If you do decide to make a stand, I would suggest that you don't just not buy the game but also make CA/Sega aware of your reasons.

Btw, one thing about security risks: you are not very likely to be the target identity theft or have your credit card number copied even if you have a very vulnerable system. You are much more likely to become a unknowing accomplice in spamming, cybercrime and/or cyberwarfare, also know as a botnet zombie. In that sense security risks are like dumping environmentally hazardous waste, the cost to society is often greater then the direct cost to you.

Anyways, I bought the game, and installed it. No problems and no issues for me, but then again my game rig is not networked in any way. No, I'm not paranoid, there are people out to get us. Having been on the business end of a DDoS I know that for sure.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sapi

Stay away from discussing cracks, as happened in the other thread, and this'll be fine...

Our rules on that are quite clear, however, and aren't something that I can change, or bend...

---

I'm sorry but I just can't help it .. he said stay away from DISGUSTING CRACKS .. (Beavis & Butthead chortle):hijacked:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by crpcarrot

in the UK and i presume the EU siginig license doens not necessarily mean the vendor can take away your consumer rights. and limitaiton clauses have to be pretty well highlights so the consumer for it be applicable and the way u accept a EULA by clickinng a button would not hold up in a British court. not from what i know about contract law anyway.

---

Spot on. Any contract made HAS to be legal. Even a signed contract won't matter if what it says is illegal. For example, let's say you get a job somewhere. That job is shitty, so it pays bad. Under the minimum wage required by law, actually. They give you a contract where which you sign and agree to the below minimum wage. However, if you take that contract to any court/authority, it will be declared null and void in a second. Even though both of you agreed to it, it's still not legal.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by flambergius

In the end you must ask yourself two questions:
1) The risk being what it is, am I willing to accept it? While this is nowhere near the worst risk factor you must assume just to use a PC, remember that risks are cumulative.
2) This risk is unnecessary and it is being forced as a part of a trade by the other party for their gain (as perceived by them). Does this piss me off? If you do decide to make a stand, I would suggest that you don't just not buy the game but also make CA/Sega aware of your reasons.

---

I can agree to that. Don't buy a game if you think the publisher is treating you unacceptably as a paying, loyal customer by imposing invasive and unremovable anti-piracy protection that is not without risks. Protesting by not purchasing is the only way to discourage its use in the future and bring a solution in the form of a patch.

Buy a game with intrusive copy protection and you are basically sending a message to the publishers that you don't mind and it's alright for them to continue using it. The result is progressively more and more intrusive copy protection in future releases as publishers test how much further they are able to cut into customers' rights and get away with it. Pray Bioshock does not herald a new beginning where games of the future require online activation and allows set number of installations.

Anyway, here's a link with detailed instructions for the removal of the Securom malware.

http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/98...-bioshock-demo

It is a very complicated, risky, and painful process which is not for the faint of heart. I have not attempted it and can't say it will work in removing all traces of Securom.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sapi

If that's your only issue, you should easily be able to use the cmd tools to delete them... (cd C:\Documents and Settings\[whatever]\Securom\; dir; del [x]).

---

No Sapi, it's not that simple, and that's what a lot of us are complaining about. Read this slashdot post about the way SecureRom hides the files and makes them undeletable, even after the game is uninstalled. It's from a thread about the DRM in Bioshock but it's the same version of SecureRom used in Kingdoms, as far as I know:

http://games.slashdot.org/comments.p...7&cid=20349927

This also shows why it's sometimes flagged by rootkit detectors and AV software, but again... the main issue (for me, anyway), is the arrogance of installing hidden files that aren't removed with a game uninstall, and that I can't remove without jumping through extraordinary hoops.

After getting a look at the code for the kingdoms campaign scripts I think I won't buy it, either. The additional features are probably not worth 30 bucks (and being a modder I'm mainly concerned about additional feature I can fool around with).
Might pick it up when it's out for 15 euros or so but not full-price.
The fact that SEGA decided to use SecuROM which I'm 100% sure will object to my installation of DAEMON tools added to this.

What amazes me about this whole fiasco is that the 2K devs realized early on, that they had a problem on their hands with the DRM for Bioshock, and they responded quickly to limit the damage. It's not a wonderful response... they're extending the activations and promising a total removal of activations, and they'll be releasing a tool for removing the hidden SecureRom files. But it's at least a response. It means you can have a clean computer after uninstalling the game, which is all I really care about, as long as the DRM isn't as bad as Starforce. It was enough to tilt me over the threshold, and I bought Bioshock on that promise... because I think they'll catch royal hell if they don't follow through. And frankly, Bioshock is the kind of one-every-five-years game that's worth it.

What's CA's response on this? Nothing. If they said they'd release a utility to remove the hidden key after I uninstall Kingdoms, then I'd pony up and buy the expansion. And c'mon... this is an expansion we're talking about... not some world-shattering new game. Without that, I'm not sure I want to buy Kingdoms.

My only beef with Kingdoms copy protection is it takes longer to get going...M2TW safedisc verifies the disc faster and after the game starts i just remove the dvd..But in the Kingdoms manual it say you have to keep the Kingdoms DVD AT ALL TIMES...is this true?This securerom thing is just slow and annoying if you ask me...and yes i don't like using my DVD everytime i want to play the game...