Owwwwwww well let's look at the bright side

Half of the mosks in Great Brittain don't call for Jihad.

Hmmm I still feel bad, it's sounds better but it's the same thing. Hmmm.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/com...cle2402973.ece

'Almost half of Britain’s mosques are under the control of a hardline Islamic sect whose leading preacher loathes Western values and has called on Muslims to “shed blood” for Allah, an investigation by The Times has found.'

Oh really I am shocked.

'Many had their studies funded by local education authority grants'

Hey, just like home, lefties activily funding islamisation, somebody tell the usefull fools that the dhimma-award is a price you pay. But they probably know that but just can't survive without muslim votes anymore, how very Faust of them.

Nothing to see here, move along.

Doing fine England, really.

I hope you're not trying to discriminate are you? That's a sin that is. :furious3:

If hating the UK and plotting to kill people is part of their religion or culture, what can we do??

Half isn't too bad. I'm sure with enough grants we can increase the percentage.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

?Half isn't too bad. I'm sure with enough grants we can increase the percentage.

~:smoking:

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To 100%? :inquisitive:

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Originally Posted by InsaneApache

To 100%? :inquisitive:

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Heh, that was the implication ~;)

~:smoking:

Half of the mosques in London?

I don't believe that. Everyone I know has assured me that only a tiny fraction of a splinter encourage violence in Islam.

Maybe 'shed blood for Islam' and 'kill all the infidels' are metaphorical terms.

Besides, the Times is a very, very, extremely right-wing newspaper that says what the government tells them to. Until I see an article in the Guardian that says the same thing, nobody can believe it.

You're missing the real ray of sunshine:

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Originally Posted by Times article

It is not suggested that all British Muslims who worship at Deobandi mosques subscribe to the isolationist message preached by Mr ul Haq, and he himself suggests Muslims should only “shed blood” overseas.

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See? It's only overseas. So as long as you stay on the west side of the Chunnel, you should be fine.

Seriously now, where do the Deobandis line up in the whole Sunni/Shite split? Are they any relation to Wahabists?

And quite a few US Catholics favor chemical or barrier contraception and the judicial use of the death penalty despite the Church preaching against both. So, obviously, no congregation can be assumed to monolithically conform to the stated dictates of their church.

However....

On the whole I am rather happier with a church that preaches in favor of life than one which calls for blood. Obviously that must be discriminatory on my part.....:dizzy:

I know it makes me a racist, but I've always felt that if someone is trying to immigrate to your country all the while claiming you are a corrupt, evil society that needs to be destroyed.... maybe you shouldn't let them in. :shrug:

Edit:
I can imagine the immigration interviews:

So, what do you offer our country Mr. Immigrant?
Death to the infidels!
I see, well we have plenty of infidels here- you should do just fine. Welcome aboard!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

I know it makes me a racist, but I've always felt that if someone is trying to immigrate to your country all the while claiming you are a corrupt, evil society that needs to be destroyed.... maybe you shouldn't let them in. :shrug:

Edit:
I can imagine the immigration interviews:

So, what do you offer our country Mr. Immigrant?
Death to the infidels!
I see, well we have plenty of infidels here- you should do just fine. Welcome aboard!

---

That was the most chilling part of the article. You must have missed where they said its 2nd and 3rd generation. They quoted a guy from Pakistan saying (paraphrasing) "You've let the Deobandis run wild over there, and now they're much more extreme then they are in Pakistan".

I found the comments from readers at the bottom very telling as well. By and large, the readers chose to blame British society for not making the 2nd and 3rd generation muslims feel more welcomed and accepted.

So, basically, if you're Christian or Jewish, grow up and get a job. But if you're Muslim, you should be coddled? No offense to most Muslims on the boards. If anything, the assumption that Muslims are a hair's breath away from violence and the British government needs to take all extraordinary measures to placate you should be downright insulting.

I think another view is needed on this story ....
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2007410806,00.html
Oh sorry thats the times with tits version:oops:


So now Frag....

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Half of the mosks in Great Brittain don't call for Jihad.

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Wouldn't that mean that half of the mosques are not mosques ? perhaps they are pubs and betting shops and the murdoch journalists just got a bit lost and confused .

From the times

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In another talk, delivered a few weeks before 9/11, he praises Muslims who have gained martyrdom in battle and laments that today “no one dare utter the J word”. “The J word has become taboo . .. The J word is jihad in the way of Allah.”

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isn't that wierd , if no one dares say the word how come half of the mosques are calling for it ?
The suns version is funnier though , apparently the same lines are an attack on Jews , perhaps they were longer in the pub than the times writers .:yes:

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Hey, just like home, lefties activily funding islamisation

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Errrrrr...Frag this is Britain they are talking about , those LEA grants would be from either conservative or new labour run commitees in the areas in question , which of those is a leftie party ?

Bah. We've beaten christianity, Islam won't be any harder.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Hey, just like home, lefties activily funding islamisation,

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Just yesterday I heard a comment from a green party member who said that Germans visiting terrorist training camps in Pakistan would not necessarily go there to become terrorists, they might go there for information gathering or erm (well, he was thinking) other things (that's all he came up with :laugh4: ).

Yeah I mean my dream holidays include visiting a terrorist training camp to have a nice discussion with them about why the bible is better than the quran.:dizzy2: Or maybe just eat some cookies with the nice guys there.:2thumbsup: Or find a husband for my future daughter, or....

The Deobandi movement, part of the Hanafi maddhab (a school of fiqh, or Islamic law), does not necessarily promote terrorism, friend. The head of its main establishment, in Delhi, India, has, if I remember correctly, officially denounced those students (taleban, you may know them ~;p) who formed the clerical dictatorship in Afghanistan and now threaten democracy there as we speak. He views them as misguided and outside of the Deobandi system of teaching, taught as he was by wayward Deobandi madrassas in the Pakistani tribal areas.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

Seriously now, where do the Deobandis line up in the whole Sunni/Shite split? Are they any relation to Wahabists?

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The Deobandi tradition within the Hanafi maddhab was born as a revivalist movement for the Muslim community in India, which had gone strongly into decline following the failure of the Sepoy Rebellion and the transferring of power from the British East India Company to the British state itself (for instance, while a highly literate community before the Sepoy Mutiny, the subsequent institution of English as the sole language of communication and education in British India meant the sharp decline of literacy amongst Indian Muslims, leading to the fact that by 1910 literacy in Urdu was 20%, down from a whopping near 100%; in the same vein, only some sixty graduates of Calcutta's university, out of 3000, were Muslims between 1858 and 1878, while in the 1880s only one Muslim out of every twenty-five was enrolled in British-run colleges).

The Deobandis said that it was the fact that the Muslim community in India had strayed from the Qur'an, the sunnah, and the shari'a in general had led to their downfall and marginalization, and invoked the memory of the rich, powerful Mughal empire and its golden age of intellectual and cultural life for Indian Islamic society (though it must be said that it wasn't too bad for Sikhs, Hindus, Jains and Buddhists before Aurangzeb, either). Returning to that would be the medicine for all their ills. They were (and are) opposed and rivalled by the Aligarh Muslim University (in Delhi as well), which is run on the idea that the learning and practicing of Western techniques is the way forward for Indian Muslims. The Deobandi system is surpassed only by Cairo's al-Azhar University for teaching and scholarship in Islam in the Sunni world.

So no, they aren't anywhere near the Wahhabis, Qutbists or Salafists. They represent the traditional, conservative line within the Sunni world which is likely that of the overwhelming majority of world Muslims.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Bah. We've beaten christianity, Islam won't be any harder.

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Beaten? :inquisitive:

Perhaps you mean "ignored" or "discarded?"

Christianity hasn't been "opposed" to any Scandanavians for most of a millenium.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

Beaten? :inquisitive:

Perhaps you mean "ignored" or "discarded?"

Christianity hasn't been "opposed" to any Scandanavians for most of a millenium.

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I believe he was speaking in his role as secular humanist, not Scandanavian. I believe HoreTore's 'beaten' comment stems from the realization that everyone he knows is atheistic as he is. I didn't consider it worth answering, as he hardly appears to have taken an objective or exhaustive look at the number of Christians in his own country, let alone worldwide. But let a hippy dream, man. :hippie:

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Bah. We've beaten christianity, Islam won't be any harder.

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Well, if by beaten you mean "turned into a crucial cornerstone of modern society"...

In before theism vs atheism drama

Good lord, I need an organziational chart for all these splinter groups. :dizzy2:

Anyway, it sounds (to me) as though the Deobandis are a reactionary educational group that looks back on the past fondly and says "well, the best things have ever been was 700 years ago, so we need to return to 700 years back". Is that correct? They're essentially the angry, violent muslim version of the Amish?

And did I understand you correctly that they're Sunni, not Shiite?

Angry and violent? Not really. Real conservative? Hell yes. Scions of their school can transform into terrorists and tyrants? Yep.

And yes, they're Sunnis. The Deobandi madrassa in Delhi, their primary institution of higher learning, is second only to Cairo's al-Azhar in prestige for scholarship in the Sunni world.

Wow never knew it was that bad in england.

Will this make you guy's vote for more pro-england parties in government, or at least something, after all, no one should actually threaten your life publicaly (for a long time too). no mater what freedom of speech.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

But let a hippy dream, man. :hippie:

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I keep hearing Christopher Guest singing "Listen to what the flower people say..."

This one goes to 11. :cheesy:

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Originally Posted by Fragony

whose leading preacher loathes Western values

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That phrase is hilarious. They don't hate "Western values". Rather, they hate that there is no such thing was "Western values," because "The West" has no values.

The above quoted phrase is but one of endless examples of sneaky media bias towards a secular humanist agenda.

I'm from the west and I have values. They happen not to be religious based ones.

Far better to make your own mind up than be spoon fed values by controlling (religious) elites.

Quickly, nail big pieces of jagged wood over the windows before a rampaging mob of Muslims crash through complaining that their benefits hardly cover the cost of making protest banners.

We must elect the nearest bunch of facists and neo-nazis into power ASAP!

Further sacrifice of the rights of many in order to maybe prevent the possible criminality of the few!

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Originally Posted by Navaros

That phrase is hilarious. They don't hate "Western values". Rather, they hate that there is no such thing was "Western values," because "The West" has no values.

The above quoted phrase is but one of endless examples of sneaky media bias towards a secular humanist agenda.

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Nav':

What you label and deride as the "secular humanist agenda" is, in point of fact, a very clear values set by which one can live one's life.

You may think their value set is inherently misguided and predicated on a list of assumptions that you believe to be wrong, but that does not belie the existence of value set for that "agenda."

Besides, are you not, yourself, a "Westerner" with a clear value set? How can "The West" be bereft of values in its entirety?

A passionate response, but logically a tad "sloppy."

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Originally Posted by K COSSACK

Wow never knew it was that bad in england.

Will this make you guy's vote for more pro-england parties in government, or at least something, after all, no one should actually threaten your life publicaly (for a long time too). no mater what freedom of speech.

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Sorry to go a bit off-topic here, but we can't vote for pro-england parties - this is Britain!

When will you people learn that there is no such thing as England. England is not a country, it is just an area of the country of the United Kingdom.

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Originally Posted by currywurry

Sorry to go a bit off-topic here, but we can't vote for pro-england parties - this is Britain!

When will you people learn that there is no such thing as England. England is not a country, it is just an area of the country of the United Kingdom.

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Then what about the Welsh and the Scots?

Well, Wales was never really a country. There was only one Welsh Prince of Wales and Long Shanks did for him. Scotland and England came into personal union in 1603 when a Scottish king took the English throne and into political and national union in 1707 when the Scottish parliament agreed to disolve itself at the behest of a German Queen.

England and Ireland came into personnal union under Henry VIII after the reformantion and into political and national union in 1801.

Since then Southern Ireland has broken away completely, Northern Ireland has it's own assambly, as the do the Welsh, while Scotland has a new parliament in a tacky new building. All these countries now exist seperately from the United Kingdom to one degree or another.

However, there is currently no English parliament.

I know i'm dragging away from the original subject here, but it really gets on my nerves this whole 'scotland, wales and england' thing. STOP BEING NATIONALISTS IDIOTS AND JUST BE UNITED AS YOU HAVE BEEN FOR THE LAST 300 YEARS. The country functioned fine until you all started thinking about countries of olde that ceased to exist a long time ago.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

I believe he was speaking in his role as secular humanist, not Scandanavian. I believe HoreTore's 'beaten' comment stems from the realization that everyone he knows is atheistic as he is. I didn't consider it worth answering, as he hardly appears to have taken an objective or exhaustive look at the number of Christians in his own country, let alone worldwide. But let a hippy dream, man. :hippie:

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I mean marginalized, so that they don't have any real influence in this(and many other european countries) any more ~;)

And half my family are mad, blood-hungry and hellbent fire and brimstone christians, just so you know ~;)

And I am the grandson of the former leader of Buskerud's Christian Peoples Party...

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The above quoted phrase is but one of endless examples of sneaky media bias towards a secular humanist agenda.

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OK nav , you done quite well on your piss take Christian fundamentalist stance .
Can you offer anything much in the piss take Islamic fundamentalist stance ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by currywurry

Sorry to go a bit off-topic here, but we can't vote for pro-england parties - this is Britain!

When will you people learn that there is no such thing as England. England is not a country, it is just an area of the country of the United Kingdom.

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No way?

so england ceased to exist once they united with scotland and N ireland?

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Originally Posted by K COSSACK

No way?

so england ceased to exist once they united with scotland and N ireland?

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Dont be stupid. You knew that

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Originally Posted by Slyspy

Quickly, nail big pieces of jagged wood over the windows before a rampaging mob of Muslims crash through complaining that their benefits hardly cover the cost of making protest banners.

We must elect the nearest bunch of facists and neo-nazis into power ASAP!

Further sacrifice of the rights of many in order to maybe prevent the possible criminality of the few!

---

So true it hurts. :bow:

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I know i'm dragging away from the original subject here, but it really gets on my nerves this whole 'scotland, wales and england' thing. STOP BEING NATIONALISTS IDIOTS AND JUST BE UNITED AS YOU HAVE BEEN FOR THE LAST 300 YEARS. The country functioned fine until you all started thinking about countries of olde that ceased to exist a long time ago.

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Ah, yes -- that's why each of them has a different national language. That's also why each of them has their systems of law completely seperate, inviolate and unique. That's also why they have national symbols, history and identities.

What you describe as "British" is nothing but a construct devised three hundred years ago and become English by virtue of England's massive demographic advantage in this union. This is not said to denigrate the United Kingdom -- this is simply how it is. The Union may not have been concieved exclusively by Englishmen, nor was it (completely) created by them, but it was inevitable that they would come to dominate it in almost every concievable way. What is happening now is simply a reverse of that process.

Sorry, mods, for further derailing this. I will stop if you wish it so.

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Originally Posted by K COSSACK

No way?

so england ceased to exist once they united with scotland and N ireland?

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Read my post but yes, sort of. England and Wales share a church, schooling system and legal system. Scotland maintained it's own of each.

With the acts of political union England ceased to exist as a political entity distinct within the British Isles. With the acts of devolution Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland came back into existance as semi-autonomous political entities but there is still no political entity that is England.

It is a great political injustice which if it isn't eventually remedied will likely cause the English to initiate the breakup of the Union. I think the Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs and others will find themselves swamped in a tide of Anglo-Saxon rage if that happens.

Well, let's be honest here. The Union Parliament is the English one. It's even held in the same place

nm.

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Originally Posted by Baba Ga'on

Well, let's be honest here. The Union Parliament is the English one. It's even held in the same place

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Not so. Not at all, excepting the location.

There is no "English" parliment - the Scotish and Welsh MP's sit and vote in Westminster on issues that effect the UK and then their own parliments do away with those said issues...

a perfect example is University loans - Westminster abolished grants and replaced them with a loan - the scotish parliment overruled this so Scotish students still get grants and dont have to pay anything back.

Westminster is "shared" and until England gets a voice like scotland and wales theres going to be some significant sabre rattling come next election

on topic - it doesnt suprise me that many 2nd and 3rd generation imigrants are being taken in by thses radicals - their parents know life in the UK is better hence why they moved in the first place, their children wont and will have lived life on the bottom food wrung in the UK - we arnt overtly racist anymore but the feeling is still there - hence why the newspapers are able to fire everyone up with imigration one liners.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Dont be stupid. You knew that

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Yeah, anything else you want to point out of what I should know?

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

So now Frag....
Wouldn't that mean that half of the mosques are not mosques ? perhaps they are pubs and betting shops and the murdoch journalists just got a bit lost and confused .

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Ow you got me there me so pwned. Ah well all is still fine huh, peaceful people, peaceful religion, metro didn't explode for a while and most brits still have heads attached to their necks and most women aren't gangbanged and stoned to death afterwards. Maybe tomorow, but let's celebrate cultural diversity in the meantime no? I love kebab :balloon2:

On the subject of the union there is a deep vein of annoyance in England over tuition fees and foundation hospitals being passed by Scottish MPs which is pretty much the reaction the so called ''nationalists'' want.

They, like these Muslim fundamentalists we so often hear about, are trying to shape the nation to their own wishes against the will of the majority, although it is through less violent means i find it equally disgusting. Like many people in Britain i am not solely English but have Scottish, Welsh and Irish blood, and i am fed up with nationalists trying to punish me for my supposed ''English'' ancestors crimes against their ''country'' That is where i believe this nationalist zeal comes from, an understanding of history almost solely from sources such as Brave heart...

Back on topic i believe that what we need in Britain is clear moderate leadership from Islam, at the moment we hear all about the extremist clerics and such. If a noble religion that prohibits violence against the unarmed or unwilling, and treats other followers of god with respect cannot find a leader to show the world (and indeed their own communities in some cases) this, then it has truly gone astray...

If such a person exists we would have found him by now. It is what it is, no such thing as a moderate islam. Only moderate muslims.

Fragony , do you check under the bed every night just to make sure that the muslims aren't gonna get ya in your sleep ?

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Back on topic i believe that what we need in Britain is clear moderate leadership from Islam, at the moment we hear all about the extremist clerics and such. If a noble religion that prohibits violence against the unarmed or unwilling, and treats other followers of god with respect cannot find a leader to show the world (and indeed their own communities in some cases) this, then it has truly gone astray...

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Funny that , I just read an article where one of the nuttier leaders in Britain has changed his mind over the nuttier aspects that he used to support .Old news of course but a British paper did manage to report it this morning a month after the story came out .

Redicule me all you want tribes, reality has a way of catching up. It is what it is.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

It is what it is.

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That's hard to deny, but what exactly is it? :laugh4:

I hope Tribes is not denying that radical muslims exist, otherwise I'd claim the crusades were performed by agnostics. :dizzy2:

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Originally Posted by Husar

That's hard to deny, but what exactly is it? :laugh4:

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snip

edit, that wasn't really necesary.

edit, don't know if you heard of him, a non-dhimmi politician called Wilders compared the Quran to Mein Kampf and wants to ban it (and he calls himselve rightwing, banning books gah), now I am against a ban but the comparison is valid.

Edit by Ser Clegane: no religion bashing if this thread is supposed to stay open

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Offensive quote removed by Ser Clegane

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Weren't we talking about reality? Well, Islam can be dangerous but then there are people who call themselves chrisitans and walk around slaughtering others. Maybe not so much in Europe, but elsewhere in the world.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fragony

edit, don't know if you heard of him, a non-dhimmi politician called Wilders compared the Quran to Mein Kampf and wants to ban it (and he calls himselve rightwing, banning books gah), now I am against a ban but the comparison is valid.

---

The old testament also contains genocides as in "kill them all, leave nothing alive" and God even punishes king Saul for not doing so. Yet noone called for it to be banned because it promotes violence. Though then again, there is no new quran that promotes love that I'm aware of.:sweatdrop:
The problem is that you can find followers for almost every radical idea, you can even find people who want you to eat them alive.:2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Husar

The old testament also contains genocides as in "kill them all, leave nothing alive" and God even punishes king Saul for not doing so. Yet noone called for it to be banned because it promotes violence.

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There are creepy parts in it, but that is god saying 'look what I have done!' The Quran has an to-do list, bible doesn't. That is a major difference.

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Originally Posted by Husar

Though then again, there is no new quran that promotes love that I'm aware of.:sweatdrop:

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You do know that the Quran includes the gospel, right?

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

You do know that the Quran includes the gospel, right?

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No, though I knew Jesus is a muslim prophet. And it's sort of useless since Muhammed's message seems to trump that of Jesus, I have yet to see a muslim quote Jesus anywhere. :shrug:

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The Quran has an to-do list, bible doesn't.

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OK Frag , why do you really want to go out of your way to show that you don't know either set of scripture ?

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no such thing as a moderate islam. Only moderate muslims.

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Islam comes in many flavours , just like christianity .
If there are dozens of different interpretations of the scriptures in their original lnguage , and hundreds of different interpretations of the translated scriptures then how on earth can you say that there is only the extremist version and no moderate version .

Make sure you check under the bed tonight Frag , Islam is your own personal bogeyman and it really is gonna get ya:scared:

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Originally Posted by Husar

No, though I knew Jesus is a muslim prophet. And it's sort of useless since Muhammed's message seems to trump that of Jesus, I have yet to see a muslim quote Jesus anywhere. :shrug:

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Jesus is a muslim prophet?!?!?!

Mohamed trumps trumps jesus' message?!?!?!?

Wacky, islam didnt even start yet, and how does mohameds message beats jesus?

Jesus preaches peace and love while mohammed has passages in the quran about fighting the infidel, now to the common man that would seem weird for a religion to preach, by todays common perception of religion.

:dizzy2:

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Originally Posted by K COSSACK

Jesus is a muslim prophet?!?!?!

Mohamed trumps trumps jesus' message?!?!?!?

Wacky, islam didnt even start yet, and how does mohameds message beats jesus?

Jesus preaches peace and love while mohammed has passages in the quran about fighting the infidel, now to the common man that would seem weird for a religion to preach, by todays common perception of religion.

:dizzy2:

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Perhaps you should educate yourself.

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Originally Posted by K COSSACK

Jesus is a muslim prophet?!?!?!

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Just like Moses is identified as part of the Christian message.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by K COSSACK

Mohamed trumps trumps jesus' message?!?!?!?

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Just like Jesus trumps the Old Testament message, muslims believe that Mohammad trumps that of the New Testament.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by K COSSACK

Wacky, islam didnt even start yet, and how does mohameds message beats jesus?

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Like software, updates generally come after the original source.

OT -> NT-> Koran

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Originally Posted by Slyspy

Perhaps you should educate yourself.

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Whats the matter cant put a decent argument up?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

Just like Moses is identified as part of the Christian message.


Just like Jesus trumps the Old Testament message, muslims believe that Mohammad trumps that of the New Testament.



Like software, updates generally come after the original source.

OT -> NT-> Koran

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ah, thx for clearing that up

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Originally Posted by Husar

Weren't we talking about reality? Well, Islam can be dangerous but then there are people who call themselves chrisitans and walk around slaughtering others. Maybe not so much in Europe, but elsewhere in the world.

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This is kind of what i am getting at, the idea of this appauls me and there are moderate christians that come out and say that this is wrong, and thankfully most people know that such actions are unchristian.

I know there are muslims that feel the same about extremists breaking the rules of their own religion.
There realy is no getting away from it for them, Islam is a religion of rules and law, this isn't a bad thing. But by disregarding those rules extremists threaten Islam...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Husar

The old testament also contains genocides as in "kill them all, leave nothing alive" and God even punishes king Saul for not doing so. Yet noone called for it to be banned because it promotes violence. Though then again, there is no new quran that promotes love that I'm aware of.:sweatdrop:
The problem is that you can find followers for almost every radical idea, you can even find people who want you to eat them alive.:2thumbsup:

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Yes and this is the reason why i cannot see the old testament as direct scripture, and i guess the Gospels (but not the rest of the new testament) would ''trump'' the old testament to a certain extent. I think that quite a bit of the old testament is a biased history and i think that when many events in it are attributed to god its more of a assumption that god did it.

The real point i am getting at is that there are some ''peaceful'' messages in the quran, such as those that list jews and christians as fellow believers.

I welcome any more knoledgeable on the quran to correct me if i am wrong but from my knowedge of it:

When the term infidel is mentioned it is a referance to the pagans that muhhammed fought and explicitly not Christians or Jews who muhhammed had a lot of respect for.

There are rules of war where as i remmeber they are not permmitted to fight women, children, the old the sick or the unwilling.

Now i have no illusions about Islam but i think these areas need to be considered when talking about it. Extremists are threatening this message and i would realy expect moderates to speak up and defend it but you don't hear about it.
That, as i see it, is the problem...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Husar

No, though I knew Jesus is a muslim prophet. And it's sort of useless since Muhammed's message seems to trump that of Jesus, I have yet to see a muslim quote Jesus anywhere. :shrug:

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Jesus is one of Islams many prophets, Muhammed has a special status simply because he is the last one.

They have most of the same stuff as both testaments, plus some new stuff from Muhammed.

And yes, the Quran does preach love, for those who think otherwise.

Oh, and shiites(I think it is, don't qoute me on that) are still waiting for some Imam/prophet(can't remember that either, but like the jews' messiah) to appear, which will only happen once there are no wars in the world. No, that goes for all wars, Jihad's and muslim-started wars included.

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Originally Posted by Lemur

You're missing the real ray of sunshine:



See? It's only overseas. So as long as you stay on the west side of the Chunnel, you should be fine.

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Overseas yes. But Against Who?....

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

OK Frag , why do you really want to go out of your way to show that you don't know either set of scripture ?

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I am sure that works out for you in the pub, but here we need a tiny bit more. So, you claim that the quran does not have a to-do list? And that the bible does? Or both don't, both do? And there are perhaps many interpetations of islam, but those, we do not have those here, we get the hardline variety, just because, well we allowed it to settle.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

You do know that the Quran includes the gospel, right?

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Without even checking, I know that isn't true. The fundamental part of the gospel is Jesus as the son of God. Muslims don't believe that.

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

Without even checking, I know that isn't true. The fundamental part of the gospel is Jesus as the son of God. Muslims don't believe that.

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You are aware that Christians considered Muslims as heretics for centuries right? :inquisitive:
They usually don't do that with people that doesn't belive in the Bible you know, only those that have misinterpreted it.

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

Without even checking, I know that isn't true. The fundamental part of the gospel is Jesus as the son of God. Muslims don't believe that.

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I was referring to his actions and what he said, not whether he is a prophet or "son of a god".

The Times article claims to be based on a police report but fails to mention what sort of report. That's sloppy. The hacks obviously didn't do their own math on the mosques, the Deobandis and related radicals.

Anyway, the apparent popularity of the Deobandis among 2nd and 3rd generation migrants has been noted before in various publications and it is disconcerting. These guys despise western values like freedom of expression, womens' rights, respect for literature, music and various other arts. In short they are trash. The underlying problem is the lack of democratic tradiotion and independent thinking in muslim countries and expartriate communities. It is becoming increasingly urgent to enable western muslims to separate themselves from these idiots, both physically and spiritually, through real education and opportunities on the one hand and real police intervention in those areas where 'spiritual leaders' terrorize their 'believers' on the other hand.

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So, you claim that the quran does not have a to-do list? And that the bible does? Or both don't, both do?

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Both do , as does Jewish scripture , and there are many similarities .
So for you to claim only one set of scriptures has them really is going out of your way to show that you don't know much about it .

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And there are perhaps many interpetations of islam, but those, we do not have those here, we get the hardline variety, just because, well we allowed it to settle.

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:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Yes you only have the hardline variety over there .....because you only have the hardline variety....or is it that you have many varieties over there but only look for and hear about the nuttier ones ?

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Originally Posted by Fragony

If such a person exists we would have found him by now. It is what it is, no such thing as a moderate islam. Only moderate muslims.

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What you mean, is that "moderate" (i.e. true) Muslims don't have a voice. They aren't given it by dictatorship governments, extremists, Middle Eastern fascists and, yes, the Western media negativity obsession as well. All the Muslims I know are some of the wisest and most good people I've ever met. And you would claim tripe like this? Get lost.

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Originally Posted by Baba Ga'on

All the Muslims I know are some of the wisest and most good people I've ever met. And you would claim tripe like this? Get lost.

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Fragony probably doesn't get out anymore because believes his own scare-stories.

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Yes you only have the hardline variety over there .....because you only have the hardline variety....or is it that you have many varieties over there but only look for and hear about the nuttier ones ?

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I dunno about that one mate. In the last 25 years the moslims in the city I live in have become very aggressive. They wern't a generation ago but they are now. This is prior to 11/9 as well.

I agree most are fine, it's the younger ones that worry me.

AllMost of the Muslims I know are some of the wisest and most good people I've ever met.

There fixed it for you. :sweatdrop:

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I dunno about that one mate.

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Well think on it a little .......

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I agree most are fine

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......if most are fine then they cannot all be the hardline variety can they . it would be more of a loud minority sort of thing .

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it's the younger ones that worry me.

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That is because you are getting old .~;)

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

if most are fine then they cannot all be the hardline variety can they . it would be more of a loud minority sort of thing .

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We have been here before, you and me and Frag and all the rest. I think we can agree that muslim radicalism in western cities is a bigger problem for moderate muslims and particularly free-spirited women than it is for non-muslims. The former are not going to benefit at all if the latter cry foul at every muslim face they see. I wish more people would understand this dynamic.

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

We have been here before, you and me and Frag and all the rest. I think we can agree that muslim radicalism in western cities is a bigger problem for moderate muslims and particularly free-spirited women than it is for non-muslims. The former are not going to benefit at all if the latter cry foul at every muslim face they see. I wish more people would understand this dynamic.

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replace "bigger" with "no less of a" and I would have to agree.

I think the people who need to get to grips with the dynamic are other Muslims.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

replace "bigger" with "no less of a" and I would have to agree.

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I'd stick with bigger. Consider that regular Muslims who wish to practise their faith properly have to share mosques with extremists, and that a large amount of social (and in some cases, other) pressure is exerted to keep them with the 'true' way of believing. There's a whole side to this that is barely visible to non-muslims.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

I think the people who need to get to grips with the dynamic are other Muslims.

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They sure do, but it is much harder to do so whilst you are being spat on by the likes of Fragony who maintain that backwardness is part and parcel of your genetic make-up, your culture or your religion.

So, yours and Fragonys' aims are the same, however, you just disagree about the tactics? :inquisitive:

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Originally Posted by InsaneApache

So, yours and Fragonys' aims are the same, however, you just disagree about the tactics? :inquisitive:

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Not at all, InsaneApache. I fail to see how you could construe that. I wish my fellow citizens of the muslim persuasion all the best, and I say this without irony. They are not a problem. They have a problem though, the problem of religious radicalisation, and it must be dealt with by them, using all the help they can get. Frag apparently wishes all of them away. Whether he wants to expel them, convert them by force, put them in reservations or whatever, I wouldn't know. I'll leave that to him to explain.

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

I wish my fellow citizens of the muslim persuasion all the best, and I say this without irony. They are not a problem. They have a problem though, the problem of religious radicalisation, and it must be dealt with by them, using all the help they can get.

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Has the rot spread too deeply?

Catholicism has been radicalized at a number of points in its history, but only the period known as the Crusades was truly multi-generational. It is possible for a faith group to move past such a status.

Is this likely?

The problem with people like Fragony and Geert Wilders and Le Pen and those fools in Switzerland and Austria is exactly the same as with inner city Muslim kids: radicalization. It's that simple. It has nothing to do with religion or ideology. It has everything to do with being human.

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Catholicism has been radicalized at a number of points in its history, but only the period known as the Crusades was truly multi-generational. It is possible for a faith group to move past such a status.

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Newsflash: whole peoples were oppressed, enslaved, or outright murdered by Europeans because they weren't white and weren't Christian, and thusly savages -- or not even human (as the Spaniards initially viewed the Nahuatl) at all! We're talking a period lasting from almost three hundred years after the Crusades to, arguably, just fifty years ago. Yes, it's passed. But it wasn't some episode of "Medieval barbarism" or other such fairy tales either.