No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms (update: Kingdoms patch announced)

An update for kingdoms has been announced. You may read about it here.

~sapi

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Linkage

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Originally Posted by [color=purple]Caliban (CA)[/color]

There are no plans for a patch at the moment.

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Opinions?

I didn't expect anything else really. But then, I won't be getting ETW either because of the lack of proper support and bugfixing patches ever since RTW.
SecuROM and co don't help that either.

Yeah it kind of fits their current apparent company policy: make a game with kick-ass graphics and mediocre gameplay (compared to what they could do if they really went for it) and dish it out as soon as possible to as many customers as possible, then move on to the next add-on or game without bothering to pick up the pieces. Don't care too much about bugs on the way unless people complain extremely loudly about a certain thing.

Seriously, I expected it (although I had a few more "insider informations" than most of you guys did)

So, its abandonware already?:laugh4:

Seriously, this is a blow, and I will certainly not buy any new TW game, or other SEGA game for that matter..
:thumbsdown:

Post your thoughts in the linked thread, perhaps CA can be persuaded of their error by communal pressure. Even if you doubt the likelihood of this, it is worth the few seconds of post-writing even for the smallest chance.

Remember to maintain discipline, any unreasonable attacks on CA would result in our goal being damaged beyond compare.

Not surprised in the slightest...although we have to make some allowances for the qualifier 'not at the moment'. But even so this does indeed seem like a big FU to the fanbase.

I mean seriously...is this legit? Are CA trying to sabotage their own marketability? Or are they counting on a fresh crop of sychophantic newbies to start playing their games each year and really dont give two hoots???

I wont be getting ETW if this is what CA has become...

No plans for a patch for kingdoms?i sure hope that's not the case, and are working on a patch and just said that for some evil joke.some thing tells me its for real and not just some evil joke.I hope that we get one patch for kingdoms that does just fixes some or all of the bugs.like the stone forts bug in the crusades campaign.Now i am strating to rethink about if i should buy empire total war.




lets look at a game two games called stronghold 2 and stronghold legends.if i remember right stronghold 2 only had only 2 patchs for it by the time stronghold legends came out.stronghold legends did how some mp bugs like in a 1v1 or 2v2 games you were unable to talk sometimes,but a few patchs later and its fixed,with better mp.Now lets look at stronghold 2 , two more patchs come out for it,after stronghold legends out.

so if firefly can patch a game even after a new game of theres came out.i think ca and sage should be able to make at lest one patch for kingdoms.

CA have always been parsimonious with their patches. I am not sure this marks a big change.

The decision not to make a significant 1.3 patch for M2TW was a bigger blow to me - it seemed clear then that it was considered too much work to bring the vanilla game up to the level of the expansion. That the passage of time has not changed this evaluation is not a surprise. I am not that bothered about Kingdoms - I am not aware of major bugs, but I don't read the bug list (I want to remain a happy gamer).

What I would like to see is a bit more tweaking of the AI.

The strategic AI is the most in need, IMO. I kept a log of the battles in a England VH/VH AAR and they were nearly always with the odds in my favour. Typically, the AI can't organise an offensive determined enough to catch me at a disadvantage. Nor can it avoid such offensives being organised by me. Now that does not sound so bad - given that I am a human and it a dumb AI. But because I like to wage war on a shoestring, the AI should be able to get me at a disadvantage - I know I can still win battles outgunned. However, the AI just does not get its act together. It dithers and divides.

Also, playing around with the game for a PBM in crazy ways (trying to make it harder, not easier), it is clear that there are still whacky failings of the strategic AI. For example, it will sometimes ignore empty enemy settlements, turn after turn - just walk right past them. You literally can't give the settlements away. And it seems to prefer full stacks to be led by captains and leaves generals with penny packets. You can use the consol to give a good army to a general and next turn the AI will hand it over to a captain. :dizzy2:

The battlefield AI also has problems, although I still maintain that it can often give players a run for their money if the odds are 2:1 in its favour. However, it does still suffer from passivity in the face of fire and undue exposure of its general to risk (suicide generals). A few days ago, I fought a siege assault where the AI crippled itself by making its general one of the first units to - literally - walk into my schiltron. Today, I watched my son fight a 1:1 sally which was basically just a turkey shoot.

Seems to be the way things are going with the industry in general. Good slides to adequate slides to 'Well, they aren't crash bugs, so who cares?' As long as the consumer continues to enable it, the slide will deepen. :thumbsdown:

Maybe this is a chance for some up and comers to make a decent game, take good care of it and dethrone CA from this niche market. More likely the niche itself dies, and that might be for the best.

:egypt:

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Originally Posted by Ramses II CP

Seems to be the way things are going with the industry in general. Good slides to adequate slides to 'Well, they aren't crash bugs, so who cares?' As long as the consumer continues to enable it, the slide will deepen. :thumbsdown:

Maybe this is a chance for some up and comers to make a decent game, take good care of it and dethrone CA from this niche market. More likely the niche itself dies, and that might be for the best.

:egypt:

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No, what its a chance for is for consumers to recognize that this trend is well established in the gaming industry, and reliant on thier consumption.

No big surprise here, they wont be issuing another patch, why should they? Some clever modder will come along and mod the game anyway, not only that the modders will be revered on fan baords all over the web.

By the same people who whine about not getting patches from the producer. :rolleyes:

i tend to think people are OTT with criticism of CA over bugs and patches... but no patches for kingdoms combined with no bug fixes in 1.3 gets a big :thumbsdown: from me.

broken crescent over kingdoms for me.

This is... inexcusable.

I find it staggering to comprehend that they can leave the game in a state where it provides no challenge whatsoever on even the hardest difficulty level.

At the very least the grand campaign should be brought up to kingdoms standards.

well with considering the fact that patch 1.3 is nothing not even including unit balancing i'm not in the least suprised. although i stopped playing rome after a couple of months and never bought any of the expansions at least they kept patching itand the comunity seemed satisfied with v1.5 (or whatever it ended at). but now even that trend has stopped. building an expansion that wasnt compatible with the original signalled the end of any patching to me.

although i would love to buy kingdoms i wont due to securom. its funny cos without securom CA would already have my money :)

i guess it will beack to waiting for the buglist and patch info before i spend my money on ETW (asuming ther is no securom and the likes to contend with)

I'm starting to think that it's not that they wouldn't fix the game. They simply don't know how to do it.

The fact that the ETW forum already has as many posts as it does right now doesn't help this case either. Good luck to anyone willing to reward this kind of behavior.

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Originally Posted by econ21

I am not that bothered about Kingdoms - I am not aware of major bugs, but I don't read the bug list (I want to remain a happy gamer).

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I tend to avoid reading the bug list, too, but there is one decent sized bug that may cramp your enjoyment of a campaign(if you don't expect it). A feature mentioned in the book, reinforcements for Wales if they conquer towns on their border, doesn't work.

I wasn't as bothered as some by the Securom thing(comes on most accounting software anyway, according to a friend of mine in that field), but I'm pretty disappointed by this. Kingdoms is far above MTW2 in most ways in my opinion, and I'm willing to ignore all the little spelling and other errors that should be easily fixed, but I'd at least like them to fix some of the features mentioned in their own game manual.
:no:

Sigh....too bad.

I, unfortunately, am one of those people that stay by a series. I know, M2TW is a huge dissapointment bugwise, but IMO the TW series is the only of its kind and is not something that you can easily find a replacement for like cookie cutter FPS/RPG/RTS games.

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Originally Posted by Xdeathfire

TW series is the only of its kind and is not something that you can easily find a replacement for

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I look forward to the day when this will not be the case any more.

There are very few companies that seem to actually follow up with customer service patches and support - namely Blizzard, which I credit their success with their continuous support/patches of their games.

Really, I think CA has potential to be a megamonster in the industry by their own rights, they just don't play up to it for some unknown reason - probably involves money and in-group politics.

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Originally Posted by hrvojej

I look forward to the day when this will not be the case any more.

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yeah me too a little competition wouldnt hurt this sellers market.

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Originally Posted by TheLastPrivate

Really, I think CA has potential to be a megamonster in the industry by their own rights, they just don't play up to it for some unknown reason - probably involves money and in-group politics.

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And I think it involves the lack of ability. You all need to take into consideration the fact that they could not knew how to make ai better and fix those bugs.

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Originally Posted by TheLastPrivate

There are very few companies that seem to actually follow up with customer service patches and support - namely Blizzard, which I credit their success with their continuous support/patches of their games.

Really, I think CA has potential to be a megamonster in the industry by their own rights, they just don't play up to it for some unknown reason - probably involves money and in-group politics.

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They still patch Warcraft 3 even though they dont need to. Subtle Balances. That dedication (and the huge tournaments that still go on for it) is beautiful.

Dunno about this, I'm more of a "does it run" player, if it does that's enough for me. Sure there are bugs but nothing that crashes out of the game & that's pretty much good enough for me.

Since stw I've played every TW game to death & beyond, and that amounts to alot of enjoyable hours killing & being killed.

Thing is that I can really only play these games for just so long, (essentially until I've exhausted every faction & all the different things I can think of to do). Based on this I'm happier knowing that CA's resources are being put into the development of the next release, rather than tweaking the current game.

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Originally Posted by Prodigal

Thing is that I can really only play these games for just so long, (essentially until I've exhausted every faction & all the different things I can think of to do). Based on this I'm happier knowing that CA's resources are being put into the development of the next release, rather than tweaking the current game.

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It will still come out unfinished though, so I don't quite understand your point :yes:

CA has just lost a customer. Me.

Shame really considering how i have to fight armies made up of literally nothing but Artillery and Millitia Crossbowmen in my Teutonic campaigns and pikemen which are still really really really broken in the ass.

Well at least they pushed me off the fence as to whether or not I should buy Kingdoms.

Well, to be fair... I think many of the things we'd like to see fixed, like the strategic and battle AI, are actually major game engine redesign issues. That's not the kind of thing we'd see in a patch. What they'd been doing lately are mostly band-aid fixes, like giving the AI factions more money to boost the challenge in Kingdoms, and tweaking the stat balance. Both of those options are available by modding the vanilla game even without a patch.

Yes, it would have been nice to see one more patch to fix whatever minor things they could still tweak without rebuilding the AI. But since it wouldn't be a major rebuild, we'd still be griping about "poor AI". Hopefully we'll be getting more of the changes we really want in ETW since they're doing a major rebuild of the AI, and I'd rather see them spend maximum effort on that.

I'm more angry at CA/Sega for the SecureRom thing (the reason I won't buy Kingdoms) than the lack of a final patch. I can still manage to have some fun with M2TW, using house rules to get the level of challenge I want.

This is sad, but very much expected considering the number of problems the game had upon release and the pace of patching as yet.

As many have posted countless times eversince the game came out, quantity has been taking over quality in TW eversince RTW. The games have simply too many features to keep reasonably under control or to allow balancing within the limited hours/resources a developer can dedicate to them. It follows that the new games suffer from bugs and imbalances and this is in a time that CA teams are considerably larger than in the past, when efforts towards a bug free and balanced game were more at least in number.

I have left the .com permanenty and do not wish to post there again, yet i commend positively on the OP stance and also on the resignation of the .com moderator (toxicseagul) relative to the matter.

Noir (aka excetchzebe)

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Originally Posted by Prodigal

Dunno about this, I'm more of a "does it run" player, if it does that's enough for me. Sure there are bugs but nothing that crashes out of the game & that's pretty much good enough for me.

Since stw I've played every TW game to death & beyond, and that amounts to alot of enjoyable hours killing & being killed.

Thing is that I can really only play these games for just so long, (essentially until I've exhausted every faction & all the different things I can think of to do). Based on this I'm happier knowing that CA's resources are being put into the development of the next release, rather than tweaking the current game.

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Dont take this as a personal attack but do you enjoy buying stuff that is half-broken? because that is what you are doing.

And more to the point, its not about how serious the bugs are or are not, rather that CA is laughing at us (or rather- you) for being suckered into buying an unfinished product and/or getting away with not fixing said product before they abandon it to get more money out of a fresh new bunch of suckers...

Tweaking is what you do when you have a bug free game and play around with it. Most people are asking for fixes, which is a whole different ball game.

I can't say I'm surprised by this, but I'm hopeful that ETW will be better. Though I won't be surprised if it isn't.

Hi guys,

First of all apologies for the delay in a response on this. We have been working behind the scenes and talking to the CA OZ development team about the situation but I wanted to be clearer on where things are before posting.

Each of our titles has a scheduled development time on which we can work on them, and we did not anticipate the few issues that surfaced with Kingdoms after release. The Oz team have since begun work on a new project, which is why a previous post stated that at the present time there are no scheduled updates in the pipeline for Kingdoms.

We are however listening to your concerns, examining the issues in question and are currently looking into ways to support you to the fullest extent with the resources at our disposal.

Thanks,

Mark O'Connell
(aka SenseiTW)

Thanks for the update.

I doubt many of the serious issues with the current engine could be fixed in a patch, at any rate.

Thank you for the update. :yes: Is there a chance that they will remove SecuRom while they are at this?

While I appreciate the update from CA, and this is not aimed at SenseiTW in particular, the post was a diplomatic way of saying we may or may not do something, but more likely we won't.
Its part of company policy though to not say anything that could be seen as binding, but until there is a concrete yes or no on a future patch that will fix more than what 1.3 "fixed" and hopefully come close to or exceed 1.2, I wouldn't hold my hopes too high.

So happy I didn't buy M2TW. RTW was enough to turn me away. Now I get to play EB though!

Well posters should at least take solace in the fact that a rep from CA replied to the thread and is reading the posts. I tend to be more in the camp of factionheir in my feelings on this (although he is far more diplomatic) but one only needs to read a couple of lines from sensei's post which are very revealing.

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Each of our titles has a scheduled development time on which we can work on them, and we did not anticipate the few issues that surfaced with Kingdoms after release.

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So one can assume based that the "scheduled development time" has expired, one can also assume that since there was no anticipation of the few issued that surfaced, there was never a plan to address them.

Cavaet Emptor, really gents its all about you and your purchase. CA reads the posts, is a pretty reasonable company, they just are apart of an industry that relies on user fixes and modification to propel the life of the games.

Nothing wrong with this, but as a consumer you have to decide if thats what you want to support or not. Now the SecuRom business, thats a different animal, but 2 handed fixes, rebalanced units, bad text files thats all out there and can be modded.

Expecting CA to do it when there are others who do it efficiently and for free via the modding community displays a lack of understanding of the business model. RTW seems a notable exception, but really I think expecting another through patch from CA is like getting blood out of a stone.

Look to the modding community, and your wallet.

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Originally Posted by SenseiTW

Hi guys,

First of all apologies for the delay in a response on this. We have been working behind the scenes and talking to the CA OZ development team about the situation but I wanted to be clearer on where things are before posting.

Each of our titles has a scheduled development time on which we can work on them, and we did not anticipate the few issues that surfaced with Kingdoms after release. The Oz team have since begun work on a new project, which is why a previous post stated that at the present time there are no scheduled updates in the pipeline for Kingdoms.

We are however listening to your concerns, examining the issues in question and are currently looking into ways to support you to the fullest extent with the resources at our disposal.

Thanks,

Mark O'Connell
(aka SenseiTW)

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This is not aimed directly at you Mark and I want you to know I'm usually pretty civil in my comments and lately defended you guys who come visit the forums and actually talk to us (breaking the self-imposed silence of your management which I'm thankful for) but this is not an understatement, it's an insult.
I know that you probably can't really talk about it freely, but make your chief read this.

Jeez you can't expect me to believe this junk. I am sure that the management knew about a lot of these issues. The Kalmar Union not working is not something you can overlook if you try it even once (judging from what I hear anyways). They just decided that they don't care because people will buy it anyways. Then they decided that they wouldn't need a patch afterwards because simply put, you already have our money.
If what you say was true and you "didn't anticipate the few issues that came up with kingdoms" you should seriously fire your project manager in down under as soon as possible because he's definitely not up to the job.

This is the last drop, I won't buy another game from CA until I am 100% convinced that this totally arrogant and disparaging company policy changed. A lot of us aren't stupid you know, so don't try to sell us bullshit as truffle-pâté
And I hope some more people from the community will arrive at similar conclusions about buying Empires.

I think Odin and alpaca have brought up another valid point.

How can the development time be over by the time you just released an expansion pack already? IMHO there should be support for both the game and the expansion pack, but at least the expansion should gain additional support for at least the same amount of time the main game has and not be shelved the moment it is released, which is what seems to have happened.

To say it bluntly, while you may have anticipated that a patch would not fix all the issues optimally, you could have put all these hardcode fixes on the expansion to make it more than just another simple mod to M2TW. This would also have raised the number of buyers I am sure (if of course you had not opted for SecuROM either).

It is unfortunate that Total War is being run into the ground like this, really, but if you think its SEGA limiting you, you probably should be choosing another publisher.
Alternatively, as alpaca suggested, fire the persons responsible for project management and Q&A, because they really do not deserve to work on this title.

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Originally posted by Odin
...but 2 handed fixes, rebalanced units, bad text files thats all out there and can be modded.

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Disagree. Not all of it can be modded - the CA appointed team to re-balance kingdoms (Palamedes & Celtiberos clan) did the re-balancing and they were in all probability restricted by various parameters in what they can "mod" to rebalance the game. Such parameters include most notably the new animations that tie up the people that do the balancing. These are to my understanding predetermined by graphics artists and are most likely very hard work to change afterwards - so they won't be. That's all for the sake of the "finishing moves".

Mtw2 vanilla (not kingdoms) recieved two patches (one of them "day zero":laugh4: ) that were huge (it meant that there was a lot to be done), and is left as is from then on even if its still not up to the level of the expansion, and you are saying that this is fine? RTW received 5 patches and MTW had more than enough passes to actually make it the technically most well working and balanced engine version of TW so far. But according to you M2 does not merit the same fate - all who bougth the game should have known better, i guess.

What about the mp community that gets fragmented with every version and mod that tries to introduce balance? I guess they are buying the game for nothing, right? It is to their best interest that the vanilla game is up and working and has received as much effort in balancing as possible. At least if you believe what CA promised prior to release they wanted to deliver along these lines, but it turns out that the game is left with 5 uncompatible exe's after kingdoms.

Modding is an extra thing the community added to TW on its own account - its not an excuse in my eyes for a developer to offer a product with bugs and broken features.

Noir

Thanks for the heads up.

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Originally Posted by SenseiTW

...and we did not anticipate the few issues that surfaced with Kingdoms after release... at the present time there are no scheduled updates in the pipeline for Kingdoms.

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Firstly I do find it incomprehensible that there was no contingency set aside for a patch to kingdoms. IIRC every TW release to date has required at least one patch, so the decision not to plan for one for kingdoms is frankly baffling. In fact can't think of any strategy game (going back to the civ/moo days) of any kind of complexity that didnt require patching - there is so much stuff that can only get noticed once you have thousands of people playing the game repeatedly.

Secondly I, for one, think that the need to patch kingdoms is actually secondary to the need for a further patch for the main campaign - the game just doesnt provide any kind of a challenge for an even halfway competent player, even on the hardest difficulty. While i will concede that rewriting the strategic AI is off the cards, it would be nice to at least make the AI offer some kind of challenge by fixing its invariably bad economy - even if all you do is give it financial bonuses on hard and very hard.

Go on - just sneak a few config variables in there for us to play with:
ai_econ_bonus_easy 1.0
ai_econ_bonus_normal 1.0
ai_econ_bonus_hard 1.5
ai_econ_bonus_vhard 2.0

We wont tell anyone. Promise.

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Originally Posted by Noir

Disagree. Not all of it can be modded - the CA appointed team to re-balance kingdoms (Palamedes & Celtiberos clan) did the re-balancing and they were in all probability restricted by various parameters in what they can "mod" to rebalance the game. Such parameters include most notably the new animations that tie up the people that do the balancing. These are to my understanding predetermined by graphics artists and are most likely very hard work to change afterwards - so they won't be. That's all for the sake of the "finishing moves".

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Your disagreement is based on an assumption "were in all probability", thats hardly evidence of the fact, but okay I am going to assume you know what your talking about, i am no modder.

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Mtw2 vanilla (not kingdoms) recieved two patches (one of them "day zero":laugh4: ) that were huge (it meant that there was a lot to be done), and is left as is from then on even if its still not up to the level of the expansion, and you are saying that this is fine?

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I didnt say anything was fine, I said its confirmed gaming practice, pick a PC release since 2003, and you'll either find patches (based on consumer bug finding) or mods that correct balance and add content. Its a fact of the gaming industry, I didnt create it, but dont take my word for it, go ahead pick the title you want and go investigate.

As further evidence of this practice as a condition of the industry, remember patch 1.02? the promised release date, the "leaked" version and then the subsequent 2-3 week wait while items were corrected?

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, its a duck. While I cant verify this absolutely (my insinuation) I ask the same modicum of assumption I gave you in the first quoted paragraph.

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RTW received 5 patches and MTW had more than enough passes to actually make it the technically most well working and balanced engine version of TW so far. But according to you M2 does not merit the same fate -all who bougth the game should have known better, i guess.

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Yes they should have, the condtions of games (gasp) Total war series included is not a guarded secret. Again, I challenge you to find a title post 2003 that hasnt had patching, user feedback on bugs and modification of released content.

unless your suggesting that this was the first PC release to go to the consumer with problems?

All I am saying is nothing here should be surprising to anyone, the industry is well defined at this point, heck you have users on fan boards who recieve board citations, badges, titles for creating fixes to said games, and they wear links to them in thier sigs, or did you miss all of that?

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What about the mp community that gets fragmented with every version and mod that tries to introduce balance? I guess they are buying the game for nothing, right?

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Dont know what your talking about here mate, but if it makes you feel better to point the finger at someone else, by all means go ahead.

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Modding is an extra thing the community added to TW on its own account - its not an excuse in my eyes for a developer to offer a product with bugs and broken features.

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We agree ! :thumbsup: it isnt an excuse at all, but it is a reason, like it or not.

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Originally posted by Odin
...i am no modder.

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Funny then that you comment on the potential of modding to solve certain issues.

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I said its confirmed gaming practice

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Its confirmed practice in companies that make it bigtime - smaller independent companies keep much more adequate support and even some large ones (like for example Blizzard) that kept on promoting their older games and their cult by continuous support.

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...unless your suggesting that this was the first PC release to go to the consumer with problems?

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No i am suggesting that M2 & Kingdoms are the first TW releases that get considerably less support than the previous ones. I am not interested in other games, the industry or its trends.

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Dont know what your talking about here mate, but if it makes you feel better to point the finger at someone else, by all means go ahead.

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I am certainly not pointing fingers to you or anyone else - if you played mp TW ever you'll well know what i am talking about if not i apologise: there was a whole thriving mp community eversince STW that got fragmented with every subsequent release due to the bugs and imbalances and the engine discontinuity; that community apparently was as big or bigger than the current one, even though internet was not as widespread those days. Mods fragment the community even more because mp players need to "abandon" their winning strategies to get accustomed to a mod or version; also it is vital that bugs like the 2hand are fixed directly for that community to grow.

All i am saying is that modding may be the a very good answer for SP, but it isn't for MP - that vanilla game needs to work for the folks that play the game in that mode.

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...but it is a reason, like it or not.

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Maybe so, then perhaps CA can confirm your view that so we can all start finding better things to do with our free time then.

Noir

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Originally Posted by Noir

Funny then that you comment on the potential of modding to solve certain issues.

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Whats funny about it? I used LTC to correct the two handed bug issue and the shield fix. I didnt mod it myself, but I know it worked.

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Its confirmed practice in companies that make it bigtime - smaller independent companies keep much more adequate support and even some large ones (like for example Blizzard) that kept on promoting their older games and their cult by continuous support.

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Small independent companines support thier games because they need to be supported, and the additional content engenders a broader fanbase. It dosent negate the fact that at release, thier products needed help as well, again, you pick the title...

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No i am suggesting that M2 & Kingdoms are the first TW releases that get considerably less support than the previous ones. I am not interested in other games, the industry or its trends.

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If your not intrested in the industry or its trends then this conversation is pointless, and so is your particpation, because we are commenting on a trend in the gaming industry.

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I am certainly not pointing fingers to you or anyone else - if you played mp TW ever you'll well know what i am talking about if not i apologise: there was a whole thriving mp community eversince STW that got fragmented with every subsequent release due to the bugs and imbalances and the engine discontinuity; that community apparently was as big or bigger than the current one, even though internet was not as widespread those days. Mods fragment the community even more because mp players need to "abandon" their winning strategies to get accustomed to a mod or version; also it is vital that bugs like the 2hand are fixed directly for that community to grow.

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I didnt take your comment personally, its just a matter of speak really. I did play STW many moons ago, I get your point.

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Maybe so, then perhaps CA can confirm your view that so we can all start finding better things to do with our free time then.

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Why confirm the obvious? Again, pick the title you want, most games released now have an avid fanbase doing bug checks and reporting them at fan forums like this one.

For free ! why would any gaming company not encourage this?

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Originally Posted by SenseiTW

Each of our titles has a scheduled development time on which we can work on them, and we did not anticipate the few issues that surfaced with Kingdoms after release. The Oz team have since begun work on a new project, which is why a previous post stated that at the present time there are no scheduled updates in the pipeline for Kingdoms.

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Does this insinuate that you get X time to work on a piece of software, and after X time is up the software gets released whether it is ready for release or not? Also, that starting work on a new project takes precedence over correcting the issues prevalent in the existing software, purely because you have pre-scheduled your programmers without verifying the integrity of their work?
If this is the case as you seem to insinuate, I feel vindicated in my decision to no longer blindly buy TW games on release as I always used to. Kingdoms will probably be a second hand buy as will all my games in the TW series since the M2TW debacle.
This is NOT CA bashing, this is me reading between the lines and stating my feelings.
It is such a shame as no other game stirred me in the same way as the TW series.

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Originally Posted by FactionHeir

It is unfortunate that Total War is being run into the ground like this, really, but if you think its SEGA limiting you, you probably should be choosing another publisher.

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This isn't an option because SEGA owns Creative Assembly. I would say that Creative Assembly should limit the number of features offered in their game to what can be successfully implimented in v1.0. This means being realistic with what resources are available, and also having a reasonable cut-off date beyond which new features are not allowed. That way a patch would only have to address unforseen stability issues and playbalance issues which I would think would be less work than also having to fix a myriad of broken features in a patch. It seems to me that SEGA would be more likely to approve a patch if it could be done quickly.

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Originally Posted by alpaca

They just decided that they don't care because people will buy it anyways.

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That's what happens when people buy a game despite it having serious problems. They don't get a better game next time. RTW was enough to convince me that it's now a better policy for players to take a wait and see attitude with games made by Creative Assembly.

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Originally Posted by Mori Gabriel Syme

Thank you for the update. :yes: Is there a chance that they will remove SecuRom while they are at this?

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More specifically.... will they release a utility for completely removing hidden SecureROm files left behind on the system, after the game is uninstalled? If they do that, I'll buy Kingdoms. Otherwise, no.

Same deal with ETW. I sure hope they've been paying attention to people's feelings about this issue. I'm really looking forward to ETW, but there are limits to what I'll let software do to my system, just to be able to play a game. Especially when there are other games around to play, that don't do this.

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Originally Posted by Noir

What about the mp community that gets fragmented with every version and mod that tries to introduce balance?

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Hello,

Not sure whether I understood this and something in a follow up correctly.
Mods are not a bad thing for the MP community and are not responsible for a decline in MP players (is there -STW-M2TW-? absolute or relative?).

I agree that the vanilla needs to be solid, especially the (battle)engine and all that is around that. Mods for MP that offer something new, and decent support for that are good (sure you may get people going right while others go left, but I'm also convinced that MP mods will attract more people and avoid others just leave).

A load of MP mods that just try to fix vanilla (and fail because of hardcoded restrictions) are not good.

Thanks for the update, SenseiTW. For what it's worth, I think a majority of players would be happy with a small fix for some of the advertised campaign features (i.e. Welsh reinforcements, Kalmar Union, stone castles for Crusades or changing their appearance on the campaign map to the wooden forts they appear as in battles).

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Originally Posted by SenseiTW

Hi guys,

First of all apologies for the delay in a response on this. We have been working behind the scenes and talking to the CA OZ development team about the situation but I wanted to be clearer on where things are before posting.

Each of our titles has a scheduled development time on which we can work on them, and we did not anticipate the few issues that surfaced with Kingdoms after release. The Oz team have since begun work on a new project, which is why a previous post stated that at the present time there are no scheduled updates in the pipeline for Kingdoms.

We are however listening to your concerns, examining the issues in question and are currently looking into ways to support you to the fullest extent with the resources at our disposal.

Thanks,

Mark O'Connell
(aka SenseiTW)

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Thanks for a written reply to our concerns, but, you still didn't answer if you plan on making a patch for Kingdoms or not. How about commissioning Unspoken Knight to release another one-dev unofficial patch? I'd be happy with that...or how about a "hotfix" to solve the major issues? Finally, the "resources at your disposal" were willfully misallocated...you should have planned on at least one patch for Kingdoms, and should have at least some people who are not working on new projects to fix the existing ones. Please consult with the Higher Ups, and advise them that making new games is nice, but, nobody will buy them if they stop supporting their games properly.

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Originally posted by TosaInu
Mods are not a bad thing for the MP community and are not responsible for a decline in MP players

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Hi Tosa,
i meant that mods aiming for the mp community can never replace a fully workable and balanced vanilla game; it is my undersatnding that a solid, bug-free working vanilla game may offer the best in that department from an mp point of view including the fact that it will probably contribute in the potential for modding.

Quote:

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I agree that the vanilla needs to be solid, especially the (battle)engine and all that is around that. Mods for MP that offer something new, and decent support for that are good (sure you may get people going right while others go left, but I'm also convinced that MP mods will attract more people and avoid others just leave).

A load of MP mods that just try to fix vanilla (and fail because of hardcoded restrictions) are not good.

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Agreed and exactly how i meant it.

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Originally posted by Odin
If your not intrested in the industry or its trends then this conversation is pointless, and so is your particpation, because we are commenting on a trend in the gaming industry.

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Not really IMO. Modding is without arguing a good thing - depending on modding to fix basic issues on new releases and leave them without taking them up to a certain level cannot be good IMHO though either. If you or anyone else wishes to accept this because of the context the gaming industry opertates then fine - yet, i compare current TW releases with older TW releases and with the potential the TW game conceptually and otherwise has for good gameplay. Solving basic bug issues with patches cannot ever be substituted by workarounds done by modders IMO.

For example you mention balacing of units in your post - yet the new animations make balancing more difficult because altering the balance is not based on the stats alone anymore. LTC fixes some issues not all issues by workarounds and it was in my understanding the model for the rebalancing in Kingdoms - well done to Lusted and all others that were involved as i noted elsewhere.

Where we disagree is that you seem to suggest that mods should be taken for granted instead of patching support as a policy from the developers while i suggest that they should patch the games either by adopting fixes and balance from certain mods or otherwise in, however official patches.

A major reason for this is that the majority of people who buy the game do not frequent forums and do not even know that mods exist - it is unfair to them to say the least. Another major reason is that mods can't work around all hardcoded limitations and there are plenty to my understanding.

Noir

I think I realized why developers and employees cannot say anything about patches/future projects.

Anything they do, either speak or stay silent when there are problems does not help much the community's opinion.

The sad fact is, the above statement is true because the community had valid reasons to rant (as it has valid reasons now).

Alpaca has been quite polite, everyone can see huge bugs that appear the first time you play and could not be ignored, and we aren't stupid, either.

So it comes naturally for many to drop completely TW series, at least until you release playable games (and deal with the customers as if they were paying ones).

If the game would have been playable (maybe after 2-3 patches, not vanilla), you could have said anything and have the community stay its size, but as long as the opposite is true I'd say there is no way for you to keep it from growing smaller.

So, they (whoever pulls the strings at least) thought they will be able to release a bug-free game, but in the end there was a lack of skill to do it. Despite all this, there is still not a shred of excuse for abandoning the grand campaign altogether even before the expansion.

What's totally baffling to me is that people are once again willing to forgive this kind of behavior and give it another go. How many times is it going to take, I wonder, before this kind of policy ceases to be rewarded? I stopped buying TW games after original RTW (I got both M2TW and Kingdoms as presents, but that's fixed now). I don't see how anyone can just shrug shoulders and rush to buy ETW, and then go through all this all over again. But to each his/her own, I guess.

The CA official post above just show that nothing changed from m1tw. theyre just a machine that you must pay for if you want it to work even slighty more.

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Originally Posted by alpaca

but this is not an understatement, it's an insult.

Jeez you can't expect me to believe this junk. I am sure that the management knew about a lot of these issues. The Kalmar Union not working is not something you can overlook if you try it even once (judging from what I hear anyways). They just decided that they don't care because people will buy it anyways. Then they decided that they wouldn't need a patch afterwards because simply put, you already have our money.
If what you say was true and you "didn't anticipate the few issues that came up with kingdoms" you should seriously fire your project manager in down under as soon as possible because he's definitely not up to the job.

This is the last drop, I won't buy another game from CA until I am 100% convinced that this totally arrogant and disparaging company policy changed. A lot of us aren't stupid you know, so don't try to sell us bullshit as truffle-pâté
And I hope some more people from the community will arrive at similar conclusions about buying Empires.

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Ditto. Insulting CA, VERY insulting.
That seals it. Kingdoms is the last TW title I have bought. Empire:TW, bye bye!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Noir

Hi Tosa,
i meant that mods aiming for the mp community can never replace a fully workable and balanced vanilla game; it is my undersatnding that a solid, bug-free working vanilla game may offer the best in that department from an mp point of view including the fact that it will probably contribute in the potential for modding.

Agreed and exactly how i meant it.

Noir

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Hello Noir,

We look at it the same way then.

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Originally Posted by FactionHeir

It will still come out unfinished though, so I don't quite understand your point :yes:

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Was looking at it from the position that "it does what it says on the packet"

Issues such as suicidal generals, ranged melee etc. can be construed as simply game balance, not an outright bugs.

But, I've just been reading that during the Teuton campaign the alliance between Danes & Nowegians does not allow you to use the unique units, and that, no matter how you look at it is a 100% pure gold bug which needs to be fixed.

I can't see how they can simply omit a whole freaking feature from a quater of the product and expect customers to smile happily and go about their buisiness. :thumbsdown:

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Originally Posted by madalchemist

I think I realized why developers and employees cannot say anything about patches/future projects.

Anything they do, either speak or stay silent when there are problems does not help much the community's opinion.

The sad fact is, the above statement is true because the community had valid reasons to rant (as it has valid reasons now).

Alpaca has been quite polite, everyone can see huge bugs that appear the first time you play and could not be ignored, and we aren't stupid, either.

So it comes naturally for many to drop completely TW series, at least until you release playable games (and deal with the customers as if they were paying ones).

If the game would have been playable (maybe after 2-3 patches, not vanilla), you could have said anything and have the community stay its size, but as long as the opposite is true I'd say there is no way for you to keep it from growing smaller.

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To be honest I believe that saying "yes, we made mistakes but we're trying our best to fix them" would be much better for the company's reputation than keeping silent, or pretending to not have known about obviously apparent problems before. The former is slightly smelly because it shows that CA/SEGA didn't take enough time to work on and polish their product, but unfortunately that's usus in the industry. The latter however shows all signs of a blatant and deliberate falsehood.
It's still better than not saying anything at all. At least it clearly reflects the company policy.

Edit: I wouldn't immediately have bought ETW anyways. M2TW taught me to stay wary of CA's games. I also waited with kingdoms, and it turns out I was right as I can now just not buy it.

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Originally Posted by SenseiTW

Each of our titles has a scheduled development time on which we can work on them, and we did not anticipate the few issues that surfaced with Kingdoms after release.

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Oh come on! Name one game or expansion you guys have released that did not require a patch. Thinking that there wouldn't be any issues with the software upon public release is just crazy.

Any decent development house would plan for some level of support after a release.

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Originally Posted by FactionHeir

While I appreciate the update from CA, and this is not aimed at SenseiTW in particular, the post was a diplomatic way of saying we may or may not do something, but more likely we won't.
Its part of company policy though to not say anything that could be seen as binding, but until there is a concrete yes or no on a future patch that will fix more than what 1.3 "fixed" and hopefully come close to or exceed 1.2, I wouldn't hold my hopes too high.

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Completely agree.

I hope Im proved wrong, I really do but given the current trends shown by CA (and the remarks about 'development time' which to me suggests CA gets x amount of time and if it dont work in that time-tough.) I cant see any TW game ever again being brought up to spec unless by some miracle it comes out of the box that way.

I have to say after reading all the posts that the majority of you posters have been extremely naive. CA has never supported its products adequately and has been blowing smoke by blaming the game publishers, deadlines, and ofcourse the "suits". Remember Activision and how everything was their fault and how much better things would be under Sega? Seriously, if there was an honest intent to support any of their games, there would be support. Its that simple.

Expect more of the same with 'Empire'. It will have loads of eye candy but as always will be at the expense of gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Veresov

Remember Activision and how everything was their fault and how much better things would be under Sega?

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Yeah I remember.... Cavaet Emptor :wiseguy:

Thats too bad. :thumbsdown:

I was waiting for the patch before I went out and bought Kingdoms. I just don't have the free time to waste fighting bugs... Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.... :)

Unfortunately, this sort of behavior by the PC game developers is becoming the norm rather than the exception. It's too bad really.

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Originally Posted by invalidopcode

Unfortunately, this sort of behavior by the PC game developers is becoming the norm rather than the exception. It's too bad really.

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So if we except this as fact (and this comment is to anyone still reading really) why then do we still purchase these games at release?

The only way to change the current gaming industry standard is through consumer activism. They know it, you know it, i know it, yet here we are at a fan site gushing over the latest mods that fix game issues and stamping around cussing out a dev who ventures in and confirms the process for you.

Its all on the consumer, always has been, always will be. If it dont sell, you can bet your ass they will fix it.

I take no joy (honestly) in saying this but.. I told you so, and have been telling you so.

CA is a business and the bottom line always, always, always, always, always takes precedent. Clearly CA has done the math and determined that their best course of action would be to let M2TW and Kingdoms go, as there is no more financial benefit to them in fixing it. One only need look at RTW post 1.5/1.6 to see a consistent theme. The hidden message here is that they believe they can afford to piss off 99% of us here reading these forums, lose all/some of us as customers, and still be able to sell the next game well. Loyalty is nothing, so long as one can sell enough copies to the next bunch of "casual gamers".

For the record, THIS is/was loyalty from day 1:
https://img150.imageshack.us/img150/...0858cj8.th.jpg
(not depicted is my long lost Mongol Invasion CD)

As Mel Gibson said in The Patriot, "I have run my course." If CA wishes to earn my business back, they need only listen to us, the real community.

Something else that I would like to point out that is significant in my view is Alpaca's posts. Alpaca's contributions to the modding community are well known, indeed I would refer to him as a "heavyweight" of sorts. It is very significant to me that he has apparently thrown in the towel as well, because he is not the first major figure in the modding community both here at the Org and the other major TW sites to say "hell with it".

Bottom line people. Vote with your dollars, this is the only way to send a message. Odin's posts are a spot on, it's not just you, but your friends as well, word of mouth works wonders. If enough people stop buying the games to make a serious dent, then and only then will CA be forced to stop and rethink their strategy. That said, we do need to be prepared for CA to "pull a Bethesda" so to speak, which is to say they might decide to largely abandon their core fanbase at some point and radically change direction with their games in attempt to reach a broader fanbase. I certainly hope not, but we shall see. It's largely in our hands everyone.

It's all about bonuses if you don't make your deadlines bonuses for employees and the company are reduced. Why waste time on a patch when your feverously working to meet your next deadline. Tis the way of the world.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Odin

The only way to change the current gaming industry standard is through consumer activism. They know it, you know it, i know it, yet here we are at a fan site gushing over the latest mods that fix game issues and stamping around cussing out a dev who ventures in and confirms the process for you.

Its all on the consumer, always has been, always will be. If it dont sell, you can bet your ass they will fix it.

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I agree, but we're all going to draw the line a little differently. I could live with the current state of M2TW and Kingdoms without another patch, but I'm not going to put up with one more game installing SecureRom without a means to completely remove it after the game is uninstalled. That's where I draw my personal line, and it's why I didn't buy Kingdoms. So, some of us are actually "voting with our wallets," but we may not all be doing it for the same exact reasons.

It would also help if we had more competitors in this market. I'll buy just about anything Stardock (GalCiv2) puts out at this point, because they have great support, a continuing patch schedule, zero DRM, and they don't treat their customers like software pirates. But they don't make the same type of game as CA, it's strategy-only. I wish there were a few more players in this market so I'd have a choice of options, and we could let Darwinian competition weed out the companies that deliver half-finished games and put intrusive DRM on their customers' computers.

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Originally Posted by Whacker

I take no joy (honestly) in saying this but.. I told you so, and have been telling you so.

CA is a business and the bottom line always, always, always, always, always takes precedent. Clearly CA has done the math and determined that their best course of action would be to let M2TW and Kingdoms go, as there is no more financial benefit to them in fixing it. One only need look at RTW post 1.5/1.6 to see a consistent theme. The hidden message here is that they believe they can afford to piss off 99% of us here reading these forums, lose all/some of us as customers, and still be able to sell the next game well. Loyalty is nothing, so long as one can sell enough copies to the next bunch of "casual gamers".

For the record, THIS is/was loyalty from day 1:
https://img150.imageshack.us/img150/...0858cj8.th.jpg
(not depicted is my long lost Mongol Invasion CD)

As Mel Gibson said in The Patriot, "I have run my course." If CA wishes to earn my business back, they need only listen to us, the real community.

Something else that I would like to point out that is significant in my view is Alpaca's posts. Alpaca's contributions to the modding community are well known, indeed I would refer to him as a "heavyweight" of sorts. It is very significant to me that he has apparently thrown in the towel as well, because he is not the first major figure in the modding community both here and at the Org to say "hell with it".

Bottom line people. Vote with your dollars, this is the only way to send a message. Odin's posts are a spot on, it's not just you, but your friends as well, word of mouth works wonders. If enough people stop buying the games to make a serious dent, then and only then will CA be forced to stop and rethink their strategy. That said, we do need to be prepared for CA to "pull a Bethesda" so to speak, which is to say they might decide to largely abandon their core fanbase at some point and radically change direction with their games in attempt to reach a broader fanbase. I certainly hope not, but we shall see. It's largely in our hands everyone.

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I agree. :yes:

trolls whacker's post, etc etc.

runs off to find more whacker post's

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Originally Posted by sassbarman

It's all about bonuses if you don't make your deadlines bonuses for employees and the company are reduced. Why waste time on a patch when your feverously working to meet your next deadline. Tis the way of the world.

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Shouldn't you then employ someone who can actually deliver within that timeframe?

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Originally Posted by Veresov

Seriously, if there was an honest intent to support any of their games, there would be support. Its that simple.

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I agree. I wish I had informed my friends sooner.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sassbarman

It's all about bonuses if you don't make your deadlines bonuses for employees and the company are reduced. Why waste time on a patch when your feverously working to meet your next deadline. Tis the way of the world.

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Bolded emphasis mine. Well said, but the reason one patches their games is to both avoid lawsuits and to maintain reputation/satisfied customers. To my knowledge noone has every tried a lawsuit or class action suit for a horribly unpatched, broken game, but it'd be interesting to see how one would play out. $50 isn't chump change for anyone these days. As for maintaining customer sat, it boils down to a calculated risk. Are the majority of customers satisfied? Can they "live" with what you've put out? Are you likely to drive them and future customers away given the current status? Are there any significant repercussions in the marketplace that would affect sales due to the "infamy" of having a poorly patched game? Questions like these go into the math that management uses to decide whether or not they patch. For a parallel situation, look at what happened with KOTOR2, it had a token patch, and then was completely abandoned by CA and Obsidian. They made their money, and the fans be damned.

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Originally Posted by hrvojej

Shouldn't you then employ someone who can actually deliver within that timeframe?

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Another worthy point, but to be fair, any project both large and small is subject to any number of snags, roadblocks, delays, etc, no matter how competent the technical folks and leadership team are. If one looks at some of the more experienced developer studios, one can see general trends where both game release dates are somewhat generalized (eg. 3Q2008), and they hit those deadlines with a product that's in good shape at release. Conversely, the "when it's done" mantra doesn't always work either, as people by nature have expectations of deadlines that they can look forward to.

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Originally Posted by hrvojej

I agree. I wish I had informed my friends sooner.

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Don't feel bad mate, it took me several times before I learned my lesson, I know others are in the same boat.

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Originally Posted by Ichigo

trolls whacker's post, etc etc.

runs off to find more whacker post's

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INSOLENCE!!!!

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Originally Posted by Zenicetus

I agree, but we're all going to draw the line a little differently. I could live with the current state of M2TW and Kingdoms without another patch, but I'm not going to put up with one more game installing SecureRom without a means to completely remove it after the game is uninstalled. That's where I draw my personal line, and it's why I didn't buy Kingdoms. So, some of us are actually "voting with our wallets," but we may not all be doing it for the same exact reasons.

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I view the SecureRom issue as seperate from support. I dont buy games at release, I buy them after 6 months so patches and mods can fix glaring bugs. I will play MTW2 as is, without kingdoms.

I am no computer techy, but I read the boards pretty avidly and the SecureRom issue has been discussed by people who know far more then I (didz, whacker to name a few).

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It would also help if we had more competitors in this market. I'll buy just about anything Stardock (GalCiv2) puts out at this point, because they have great support, a continuing patch schedule, zero DRM, and they don't treat their customers like software pirates. But they don't make the same type of game as CA, it's strategy-only. I wish there were a few more players in this market so I'd have a choice of options, and we could let Darwinian competition weed out the companies that deliver half-finished games and put intrusive DRM on their customers' computers.

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I think your point is fair, competition breeds better output from the dev, but in my view that does not address the real problem. As I have stated, I believe its simple supply and demand economics here. I understand these guys need to eat, and perfections is a hard concept to attain.

It does not however absolve all of us from being part of the problem, these games are being pumped out because consumers buy them, the whole industry is geared around postive reviews from online mags, gold releases, patches released a week after release, encouraged modders, more patches from user input.

The only aspect of the equation that is out of the gaming industries control is the consumption of the consumer, and it is the only thing that will change these circumstances.

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Originally Posted by Whacker

Don't feel bad mate, it took me several times before I learned my lesson, I know others are in the same boat.

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Well, I learned my lesson after seeing what mess RTW really was. I just didn't take into account that some kind people will actually spend their hard earned money to give me a TW game as a gift. But as I said, that's quite unlikely to happen again.

I frankly still cannot understand how people, as the customers, can just shake their heads and say "you got away with it this time... well, the last couple of times.... ok, more than a few times, but I'll trust you one more time and you better not do it again with ETW." I mean, come on...

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Originally Posted by Whacker

INSOLENCE!!!!

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I'M TELLING MOMMY!!!!! :bigcry: BIG MEANIE

The wait six months policy is a solid one, after I waited six months for Rome: TW and the community still loudly said it was an unfinished, unpolished mess I gave up. I've never bought Rome or it's expansions, despite loving MTW (And especially VI) and Shogun quite a lot. With MTWII it seemed that the 1.2 patch satisfactorily took care of the most glaring bugs and so I sucked it up and snagged the game. While the AI is disappointing I've still found the game enjoyable, but I'm very glad I waited. SecuRom killed Kingdoms for me, and this idea of ending support for Kingdoms/MTWII with no patches makes me very glad I didn't purchase the former. CA moved off my trusted developers list with Rome, but this decision puts them squarely on my ban list.

As with anything else you might buy gamers have a right to functional products, particularly to functions used in advertising to sell the game. If you are unwilling to release a product that works, and unwilling to fix it after you release it broken, you will rapidly find that many of us are unwilling to pay you for it.

Good luck CA. Seems like you'll need it.

:egypt:

Whacker: Yes, in fact I was already wondering if I should buy M2TW but decided to give CA another chance (and give CA: OZ a first chance). With Kingdoms I was a lot more hesitant, and as a result I don't have it yet.
Somewhere in between I realized that CA officially decided to be a "big bad mean company" on the lines of Microsoft :laugh4:

We shall see... I for one am not at all optimistic about CA. It already sounds like it's going to be another rushed game with glaring bugs that were not anticipated and caught the guys totally unawares :rolleyes:

I don't agree that this approach is the natural state of things though. Looking at companies like Blizzard (who incidentally don't have an external publisher iirc), reputation today is a hard currency. If CA suddenly find themselves bereft of any modding community, or community in general, to speak of, they will definitely perceive a drop in expansion sales for ETW. Casual gamers will be their answer to such a thing, so I do hope that we'll get some competition like some other posters here, because casual gamers probably won't buy two games of the same type.

I always knew RTW was their last greatest product.. it's the only TW game me ever purchased/played anyway. and I'm not regretin' it :P

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SenseiTW

Each of our titles has a scheduled development time on which we can work on them, and we did not anticipate the few issues that surfaced with Kingdoms after release. The Oz team have since begun work on a new project, which is why a previous post stated that at the present time there are no scheduled updates in the pipeline for Kingdoms.

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So, I take it there was never any intention to support the game any further once it was released since that's considered past "schedule" and all resources became committed elsewhere. Considering their own track record for previous games, it is unbelievable how staff can say they "anticipate no issues" for this one. As in m2tw, I wonder how some of the bugs even made it past testing or if CA chose to ignore them thinking they could get away with it. Advertising features like Khalmar union and Welsh reinforcements in the game, using them as selling points, and then refusing to fix the broken features is sheer arrogance and highly insulting to customers who paid to see them included. And to date, of course, not a damned word on Securom. The company has lost all credibility with me.

i agree wholeheartedly with what whacker and odin and others are sayings.

it is only the consumers dollers that will change anything unfortunately for us who look for long term enjoyment of a game and take immense enjoyment from minute details ( V&V in MTW) the games consumer base seems to be have a majority of casual gamers who will have moved on to the next game so quickly that they will only notice the most glaring bugs. and unfortunately TW now seemes to be geared towards this market.

although i would have stilled bought kingdoms even without the support just to play ltc 4 (at the right price) securom was where my line was drawn. i dont spend money and time keeping my pc free of unwanted software (malicious or not is not the issue) for someone to install one so he can prevent me from copying?playing a game i already have! and o top of that if i dont want to play the game anymore i cant install it! doesnt make sense to me

Quote:

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Originally Posted by crpcarrot

i agree wholeheartedly with what whacker and odin and others are sayings.

it is only the consumers dollers that will change anything unfortunately for us who look for long term enjoyment of a game and take immense enjoyment from minute details ( V&V in MTW) the games consumer base seems to be have a majority of casual gamers who will have moved on to the next game so quickly that they will only notice the most glaring bugs. and unfortunately TW now seemes to be geared towards this market. doesnt make sense to me

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Exactly, and TW is moving towards being a game that my 8 year old neice can and will play. "Let's give 'em eye candy and easy playability" is the way to go, "let's make it graphically wonderful and release an new piece of dog poo that the kids will badger their parents for" is the marketing strategy that they have so obviously adopted.
Fine, but they won't see another penny of my money as I'll just buy second hand. I won't give CA another penny of my money while they release crap like this and refuse to fix it because they are busy releasing the next piece of half finished rubbish. Now I'm aware that they won't care about my money because someone else will fill my shoes, but at least I wont be fooled again, and that's good for my soul. :2thumbsup:

And when are people going to stop sucking up to the likes of SenzeiTW, starting their posts with things like "I really appreciate you reply/concerns/time" etc yet finishing making a point of how disappointed they are. I'll make no bones about it, I am hacked off with the quality of CA's products and thought his post was patronising in the extreme. ~:pissed:
I just can't wait for someone to fill CA's vacant TW shoes. :yes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Slug For A Butt

And when are people going to stop sucking up to the likes of SenzeiTW, starting their posts with things like "I really appreciate you reply/concerns/time" etc yet finishing making a point of how disappointed they are. I'll make no bones about it, I am hacked off with the quality of CA's products and thought his post was patronising in the extreme. ~:pissed:
I just can't wait for someone to fill CA's vacant TW shoes. :yes:

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It is in our better interest that the person reading our posts be favorably disposed to us personally. The likeliness of things changing may be very small, but it would be zero if we manage to convince him that we are, from his perspective, unreasonable and there is no sense in wasting time trying to please us. If he has read much on this board, he has already seen many posts that make no bones about our feelings about CAs recent products and practices.

Indeed, it's possible to be polite (for the most part) while still delivering a "You sux lol" message. In fact, delivery is often the most important part.

From our perspective, we appreciate CA's interactions with the community. Dialogue is critical to ensuring that our concerns and issues are properly raised and addressed. Coming from a similiar mindset, I can appreciate how some folks prefer to be blunt and forward on topics, but after being married for almost 5 years now I've learned to appreciate how to soften a message some.

Now, with that said, I think most of us would agree with you Slug. While we appreciate SenseiTW's posting, there really was no real message of value whatsoever. It's not that we don't recognize statements for what they are worth, it's that we must maintain our positions staunchly, and stay our course as long as we see fit, and we must be civil and level headed as we go about it.

It boils down to "These games are garbage, you jerks never listen to us, screw you and die, etc etc" vs "We appreciate your interactions, and are deeply concerned about the current status of the games, namely in the areas of ... etc etc". Which would you rather listen to, honestly?