Favorite Units?

I can't help myself. I know I have seen endless threads about our favorite units, and all the old-timers reading this are probably sighing in bored misery, but I have seen quite a few new posters in here as of late so I figured I'd dredge up an oldie...

What is your favorite unit and why?

Anyone who has read me babbling on about units know very well I have a tendency to back the underdogs, the overused, and often unappreciated units in MTW. The top of my list is the humble Urban Militia. Often vastly ignored once a player hits High, opting for Halbreds or even sooner once FMAA can be built, these cast-offs of other players are often lovingly cherished by me well into my late-game.

Another is Swabian Swordsmen. Rarely used because of requirements and their early exit from the game, often get produced en-mass and are opted over most melee units when I have the chance.

Now just because I have a propensity towards the quickly outdated doesn't mean you have to. What are the units you while away your hours at work and/or school just dreaming about? Is it the all-powerful JHI? The everpopular Longbowmen or Billmen from the English? The Kata-tanks? Give us a post and let us know (or remind us of again :beam: ).

Hmm. One personal favorite of mine would have to be cmaa's, an all around, very good unit, capable of being produced en masse. My 'underdog' pick would have to be ghazi infantry, mainly because I love watching them crashing into the flanks of the suddenly not-so mighty kataphracts. And one last one would be Muwahid foot soldiers. I always keep at least a few spots in my muslim army dedicated to these guys, mainly because they are so darn versatile, they can fill in at multiple positions at the army, from taking on lighter cavalry, to crashing into the flanks of an enemy and causing terrible casualties with their charge. It doesn't hurt that their a bit quicker than the average infantry as well.

There are a lot of units I like, but won't pick any of the elite units because their merits speak for themselves.

I also like Ghazi Infantry. I've lost count of the times they've saved my bacon. Their morale is sky-high and they can do tremendous damage, especially round the flanks.

From the BKB Super Mod I like the Pechenig Horsemen. They're fast, never seem to tire, and go on charging again and again no matter their losses. Great for chasing down all those pesky Horse Archers. Their stats aren't anything special either. The Byzantines usually have good generals though, which helps.

Ghulam Cavalry, fast and devastating around the flanks. Don't tire too quickly.

Well, I have bit of a soft-spot for hybrids - ranged + melee capable, and I think my favourite of these has to be the Ottoman Infantry. It's a long while since I've played a Turkish campaign so can't recall all the details, but I like the ability to use up the arrows then join the melee in a useful way. I often give the AI a surprise by keeping them in engage at will rather than skirmish, so they can go in the front line at a pinch (though I'm more likely to deploy them behind Saracens until it's time to move them out to the flanks and come in around and behind the pinned enemy.)

One undervalued unit I like for Catholics is the mounted Xbow - unlike HAs it can get quite tough, especially with a bit of valour and some teching up. Indispensible unit for my HRE campaigns - AP missiles and quite respectable medium cav, what more can the Emperor ask ~D

In my current PMTW campaign, I'm developing quite a respect for berber cavalry, as well :2thumbsup:

The undervalued unit that I like is the very flexible mounted sergeants. They don't suffer the poor morale of the hobilars and due to their quickness are very good at launching coordinated flanking movements with knights. Esp. playing as the English, I use them to harass the Jinettes so they don't mercilessly destroy my very inflexible formation of billmen/longbowmen. They're also perfect for luring those Frenchie knights into my pole troops. Just let them chase my mounted seargants and send my spears toward them and the knights will hit them and then double back the sergeants and hit the knights in the rear. They're also good in sally battles, I just send them out and try to destroy any seige artillery the army brought with them. I usually have one or two in my castle garrisons. They're cheap, quick, and reliable (most of the time).
I may not want them, but I NEED the Mounted Sergeants.

My favourite unique troop is the Naptha Throwers. They're pretty useless on the attack but if they can loose one volley(and that's usually all they throw) its pretty neat to see the explosions wreak havoc on the enemy. Another good choice is the Almohad Urban Militias. I HATE them. Esp. whenever I'm trying to get the almohads out of Granada. All those CMAA defeated at the hands of infidel militia. EVIL...

Finally, you got to love those Katanks.
No need for an explanation...Go Byzantines.

Vikings: Like MAA except available in early from a fort (hence you get faster armor/weapon upgrades), and their AP. I bet the Mongols were pretty bloody surprised by my Viking horde.

FK's: Vicious enough to flank with, tough enough to flank with more than once.

That's really all you need.

Spanish Jinnettes -- for when you absolutely, positively need to drive the enemy crazy. :2thumbsup:

Ghazi Infantry and Bedouin Camel Warriors will always be in my top five as well. I admit I'm also a sucker for Huscarles, even though I know they're grossly overpowered -- it's probably the Scandanavian in me. ~D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kamikhaan

And one last one would be Muwahid foot soldiers. I always keep at least a few spots in my muslim army dedicated to these guys, mainly because they are so darn versatile, they can fill in at multiple positions at the army, from taking on lighter cavalry, to crashing into the flanks of an enemy and causing terrible casualties with their charge. It doesn't hurt that their a bit quicker than the average infantry as well.

---

:yes:

Nice to know there are a few of us that dont jump to the bog standard for favs. A couple I've overlooked, that weren't overlooked by others:

kamikhaan: Muhwadid Foot Soldiers. I've never really given them much thought. I know how to use them, but I dont think I pull it off well. I'll have to pay more attention to them in the future

macsen rufus: I like the hybrid units myself. It always seems to be a waste of a good unit to have a full unit quit the field just because they ran out of arrows.

Draconian: Mounted Sergeants. Talk about undervalued, I completely forgot about them and I play the English all the time. Dont know what I'd do without them.

Alouette: I rank the Vikings when I play the Danes along the same lines as I rank the Clansmen when I play the English. Why wouldn't you want to spam them, love them, merge them, and kik serious tail with them.

Martok: God I hate Spanish Jinnettes. I modded my Projectile Stats to give them a little more range so the AI can actually use them. They are a terrible pain in the hoop. My current game as the English and the Spanish backdoored me. The comp AI has absolutely no reservations about spamming these guys mercilessly. Javelins everywhere, I honestly dont know how I got through it. Dont care how useful they are, they are at the absolute bottom of my list of fav units ATM.

Nice mix so far, haven't seen JHI once. There is hope for us all.

Pavise arbalesters - I always have three units up front. I love to watch dozen of enemy troops drop as they come into range.

From XL: Wallachian Merc Cavalry - Fast and with a good charge and attack. With plenty of Wallachian merc cavalry in the army, Jinettes and Mongol Horse archers are significantly less annoying.

Vanilla VI: Gothic knights. Yeah, the build reqs are a nightmare, and they're slow, but if they are deployed correctly they will break up any defensive line and turn it into pudding. I just love watching them in action.

Peasants - The worst unit in the game but one of the most useful! Almost everyone uses to hold down provinces, or uses the for fodder. I use them as the Turks - which leads me to my second favorite - although the tactic may be seen as cruel. I generally have a line of JHI with Siphai(sp?) and peasants. I send the peasants foward to engange the enemy, while I spread my Siphai out. When the peasnats get close enough, I rout them. The computer charges foward blindly after my peasants, ignoring the fact they are become surrounded in a inverted defensive hexagon. Of course, they run right into my JHI and begin engaging them, while my Siphai nail them with arrows, eventually leading the charge into the rear.

Siphai (or Boyar) - Hands down in my opinion. A very useful compination of a ranged attack and decent melee.

Gallowglasses - Infantry spam thats better in some cases the CMAA. Need I say more?

Woodsmen - Better then peasants, armor piercing, and have a better stomach then UM.

Pikemen - Sorry can't help myself. I just cant get over these guys.

Gothic Units - Ever fight a unit that just refuses to die? Only Jedis, Siths, Varangians and Gothic Units.

Mamluk Cavalry - My personal Catholic Can-Openers

EDIT: Whoops! Spelled Peasants "Peasnats"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sensei Warrior

kamikhaan: Muhwadid Foot Soldiers. I've never really given them much thought. I know how to use them, but I dont think I pull it off well. I'll have to pay more attention to them in the future

---

Easy, to use. They are good for flanking and short term pinning of cavalry. Saracens are better for the latter though. They are really only supposed to be Almohad units given to the other factions in error.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sensei Warrior

macsen rufus: I like the hybrid units myself. It always seems to be a waste of a good unit to have a full unit quit the field just because they ran out of arrows.

---

This is why I like the Turks. :2thumbsup:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sensei Warrior

Draconian: Mounted Sergeants. Talk about undervalued, I completely forgot about them and I play the English all the time. Dont know what I'd do without them.

---

Not forgetting Feudal Knights.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sensei Warrior

Alouette: I rank the Vikings when I play the Danes along the same lines as I rank the Clansmen when I play the English. Why wouldn't you want to spam them, love them, merge them, and kik serious tail with them.

---

The vanilla Vikings are just superb units. Surprisingly powerful but not so overpowered as to be ridiculous.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sensei Warrior

Martok: God I hate Spanish Jinnettes. I modded my Projectile Stats to give them a little more range so the AI can actually use them. They are a terrible pain in the hoop. My current game as the English and the Spanish backdoored me. The comp AI has absolutely no reservations about spamming these guys mercilessly. Javelins everywhere, I honestly dont know how I got through it. Dont care how useful they are, they are at the absolute bottom of my list of fav units ATM.

---

Javelins are deadly in STW/MTW, combine that with the mobility of cavalry and you have a dangerous unit. What makes Jinettes so powerful is the javelin volley followed by charge combination. The first severely damages morale (while obviously killing a lot) and then combined with a decent charge is sure to rout most light to medium non spear infantry. Units also tend to run out of formation to pursue missile cavalry which causes the exposed flanks penalty to come into play.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sensei Warrior

Nice mix so far, haven't seen JHI once. There is hope for us all.

---

I've never really rated JHI, they're slow and I've not found much use for them in battle. They don't really match the rest of the Turks highly mobile and missile based units. I've really only ever used them in some defensive situations against western knights or Kataphraktoi. Even then I can make do without them or with Ghazis as "can openers".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YourLordandConqueror

Peasants - The worst unit in the game but one of the most useful! Almost everyone uses to hold down provinces, or uses the for fodder. I use them as the Turks - which leads me to my second favorite - although the tactic may be seen as cruel. I generally have a line of JHI with Siphai(sp?) and peasants. I send the peasants foward to engange the enemy, while I spread my Siphai out. When the peasnats get close enough, I rout them. The computer charges foward blindly after my peasants, ignoring the fact they are become surrounded in a inverted defensive hexagon. Of course, they run right into my JHI and begin engaging them, while my Siphai nail them with arrows, eventually leading the charge into the rear.

---

I really can't see any use for peasants. The AI spams them and they're useless in battle, and vanilla spears or UM make a better garisson unit. They're better off modded out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YourLordandConqueror

Siphai (or Boyar) - Hands down in my opinion. A very useful compination of a ranged attack and decent melee.

---

Sipahi of the Porte? The little 20 man bodyguard units? I don't rate them. Ottoman Sipahi are not armed with bows in Vanilla.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YourLordandConqueror

Gallowglasses - Infantry spam thats better in some cases the CMAA. Need I say more?

---

Good flankers with an AP attack, but poor morale and non elite. Moreso the Ghazis of the west. I prefer FMAA.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YourLordandConqueror

Woodsmen - Better then peasants, armor piercing, and have a better stomach then UM.

---

Agreed. :2thumbsup:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YourLordandConqueror

Pikemen - Sorry can't help myself. I just cant get over these guys.

---

Standard Pikemen? Chivalric Sergeants are better value for money and take less teching up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YourLordandConqueror

Gothic Units - Ever fight a unit that just refuses to die? Only Jedis, Siths, Varangians and Gothic Units.

---

Uber units yes, but the teching up take eons and costs an arm and a leg plus they're extremely slow.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YourLordandConqueror

Mamluk Cavalry - My personal Catholic Can-Openers

---

But only as charge withdraw flankers. In sustained melee they start to die horribly.

:bow:

My favorite units are, from XL, most of the Serbian roster, including Voynuks(Bladesman and Swordsman), Caska Guarda(early version with bows), Serbian Cavalry(early version with bows) and I think they have Serbian archers, I can't remember, I haven't played for a while.

I asked myself "What do I always buy when it comes up on a mercenary roster?"

Simple answer is "anything I can't build myself" when I'm feeling rich, or "anything at all" when I just need bodies to stand in the way of arrows.

"Must haves," though include:

Longbows: Even if I'm playing England I buy them to stop them going over to the other side. Though I've since read that the AI doesn't use the merc roster so maybe that's a waste of time.

Druzhina Cavalry: Nothing like a long row of foot knights bought cheap and selling themselves dearly. Rubbish on horseback though.

Organ gun: The range is so pathetic you don't always get to use it, but oh boy, when you do...

Gallowglasses: Had a bunch of these guys chased into a forest by some Pronoiai Allagion so left them to rout or die. When I next checked that side of the battle it was the Byzantines who were routing and my gallowglasses - a little worse for wear - were in pursuit.

Turcopoles: Playing as the English you don't get a mounted skirmisher option - until you reach Outremer that is. Not the best horse archers there are, but handy for some factions.

Steppe Heavy Cavalry: slow, not as tough as the price tag suggests, but versatile. Again, great if you are playing a faction short on mounted skirmisher options.

Muwahid footsoldiers: Just got the hang of these in my last Almohad campaign. Versatile and swift-footed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caravel

I've never really rated JHI, they're slow and I've not found much use for them in battle.

---

You're either on multiple varieties of hardcore drugs or you've never actually used them, bro.

Janissary Heavies are fast infantry with one of the best attack ratings for foot soldiers in the whole VI game. Plus they're polearms, so they slaughter cavalry and heavily-armoured Catholics without blinking. If anything, they're overpowered.

I can only assume that you're a n00b who's stolen Caravel's account somehow and begun posting as him.

Oh, and using Ghazis against Western knights or Kataphractoi (as you've suggested above) is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard of.

Good day, sir.

No longer will I post whilst drunk and argumentative.

This is my solemn promise.

:oops:

Teutonic Knights, obviously. Because they're just... so cool! Pity you can't train them in vanilla.

I've generally found that Naptha Throwers can be quite deadly little beggars if you use them effectively. Cheap as well, as I recall. (Correct me if I'm wrong here.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Roark

You're either on multiple varieties of hardcore drugs or you've never actually used them, bro.

---

Indeed. (hint: re read your statement carefully :laugh4:)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Roark

Janissary Heavies are fast infantry with one of the best attack ratings for foot soldiers in the whole VI game. Plus they're polearms, so they slaughter cavalry and heavily-armoured Catholics without blinking. If anything, they're overpowered.

---

They are, but they also fall easy victim to missile units, and they're anything but fast. :yes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Roark

I can only assume that you're a n00b who's stolen Caravel's account somehow and begun posting as him.

---

Perhaps the Caravel/Cambyses II/Caravel/Cambyses II/Caravel/Cambyses II/Caravel/Cambyses II/Caravel/Cambyses II/Caravel/Cambyses II/Caravel/Cambyses II/Caravel/Cambyses II/Caravel/Cambyses II/Caravel/Cambyses II/Caravel/Cambyses II/Caravel/Cambyses II/Caravel/Cambyses II/Caravel/Cambyses II/Caravel account is much like the TosaInu one in that different Caravel's take over the account as time goes one, hence the inexplicable inconsistencies, changes of opinion and rantings etc? :thumbsup:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Roark

Oh, and using Ghazis against Western knights or Kataphractoi (as you've suggested above) is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard of.

Good day, sir.

---

You Sir are a fellow... :furious3:

They make mincemeat of Kataphraktoi and MHC, but only as flankers. Head on they're dead of course.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Roark

No longer will I post whilst drunk and argumentative.

This is my solemn promise.

:oops:

---

Ever heard of the edit button? :inquisitive: :laugh4:

Edit: eh who posted all this and hijacked my account? :inquisitive:

Vikings and Clansmen. Vikings are stout, dependable troops, able to hold the line and cause serious damage. Clansmen are fast and cheap, and can be used to flank or disrupt lines (especially archers), with the added bonus of being usable in deserts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Caravel

They are, but they also fall easy victim to missile units, and they're anything but fast. :yes:

---

Wrong, dude.

JHI are as fast as infantry can get, which is speed 6/12/13

Additionally, they have a large shield to protect from missile units. They don't "fall easy victim" to missiles any more than any other unit with a large shield, and they are better protected than units with a small or round or no shield.

:inquisitive:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Roark

Wrong, dude.

JHI are as fast as infantry can get, which is speed 6/12/13

---

I stand corrected.
:bow:

i think my favourite units are:

Longbowman:I just love this guys, huge range, incredibly deadly. What can be better than that?

Spanish Jinnetes:Now this guys are good. VERY good. They just throw their javelins and problem solved. They are deadly and fast, put them in the flank our rear and you have an enemie's army destroyed.

Bonnatchs: They are as deadly as the Jinnetes. Don't have such mobility but are more resistent, I love them *-*.

at last,

Gallowglasses: I don't know what to say about them, I just like them. They are pretty fast, very usefull.

I like steppe heavy cavalry:
I had to use them out of necessity while playing the Volga-Bulgars. Like said before their versatility is their greatest asset. They're decent heavy cav (somewhat lacking in charge though), due to their armour can win any missile duel in early and they have AP missiles. Just don't get tempted to skirmish knights with them unsupported, they just can't get away fast enough.

Hmm... I actually fell in love with the Swabian Swordsmen. I know I know, they're not the best heavy inf, they're not the cheapest unit around but they're lovely to watch...

I'm still new to the game and i've only played with a couple of catholic factions but here are my favs:

1. Mounted sergeants: Relatively easy to produce, massive charge bonus makes them capable of delivering serious damage to already engaged units, even heavier cavalry untis like Royal knights that happen to be wailing on your foot untis. Fast, manuverable and able to both give and take a punch. These guys remain useful for a really long time, firstly as shock troops, then later as light cav.

2. Vikings, V. Landsmen and Huscarles: Vikings of all types rule the early age and remain useful for long into the high age. All three units are armour piercing, and all have good morale. Vanilla Viking can be produced from just a fort, meaning you can have three untis of 3 attack, armour piercing good morale warriors produced by the time you can produce your first Urban Militia normally. Add to this that Norway gives you +1 Valour Vikings and you have units that rate up or above FMAA right from the get go, but without having to build a bunch of other building to get to produce them.

Viking Landsmen for the same reason as Vanilla Vikings. The difference here is that they are just stronger Vikings, but again available so fast that producing a swarm of them to ovverrun your enemies forces isn't hard. Because they are almost always facing the inferior troops available to other factions, they also take fewer loses and Valor up pretty quickly. Combined with a decent leader, and early viking rush is tough to deal with. Add to this the fact that you can start producing them right away in your conquered province (as long as it has a Fort) and you can replenish losses fast and keep the onlaught rolling.

Huscarles simply rule the roost. They are simply better than basically every other early infantry and most High era infanty. 4 attack, 4 charge, 4 defense plenty of armour, high morale and armour piercing attacks mean they carve up almost everything they come up against. It annoys me that I can't build them in the High era, because they remain better than CMAA despite requiring far less infrastructure to build them. If I could use then in High Era I would and devote my building time to upgrading my castles and other buildings. In the early campaign I will conquer scandinavia asap and start spamming these guys as a priority so I have enough to last me intot he High era as well.

3. Gallowglasses: Massive charge, armour peircing, huge base attack stat and cheap. They are also ALWAYS valour +1 beciuse they are only available in Ireland. The +1 valor gived then a very important morale and defense increase. They are also very reasonably costed allowing for large numbers of them. With effective stats of Charge 8 Attack 6 (armour peircing) defense 1 morale 2 Armour 2 as well as being Elite they can really dish it out. ideal as flankers, but capable front liners against everything but heavy cavalry charges.


For my money, the most under rated unti is the humble vanilla Viking.
Perfect untis for Zerg rushing. Fast to make, pack a big punch in the early game and remain solid for a very long time, easy to get the valour +1 version. basically an arse kickign looking for someone to happen to. Supported by some cavalry once you get it from other provinces and some archers they provide a cheap but capable army very fast.

I don't think anybody who played with or faced the danes (or other Scandinavian faction) will underestimate viking units. They are as you say excellent flankers when compared to there tech requirements and cost. Huscarles are one of the best infantry in early together with Varangian guards and such. They are however costly and can't be kept in big numbers with a normal economy.

One note on the Gallowglasses: They are ideal for desert fighting due to their low armour stat (vikings to BTW).

For a long time I looked at slav javelinmen with contempt. I killed them in large numbers when the A.I spammed them. I never built them until, forced to do so one day, they slaughtered a large army of Danish royal knights that I thought was going to steamroller me.

They are cheap, fast and deadly to expensive armoured units. There are no better katank killers in the early game. Properly supported they can even occupy mounted archers.

I love the scrawny little guys and usually build them, even if only for variety's sake...

Gosh, I've posted so much today. I've been really enjoying reading back through the threads and posting my bit to each, it seems. Pray don't think me a spammer - it won't always be like this. I couldn't resist adding something to this one, even though it seems everyone has had their say.

I was a little shocked at Caravel's remarks about JHI. I guess it's just from not using them. So they are a favourite unit, although really I find them too powerful. I think the discussion about under-rated units was more interesting.

Once the JHI appear in my Turkish army I know it's all over for everyone else. If I've come through from Early there will be a Master Armourer in Constantinople to help them along. Really, I do find them too powerful - so usually limit myself to 2 per army, unless its taking the Mongols head on in big numbers. I've used them on everyone - and chew up Halberdiers and CMAA with them.

Perhaps Caravel should try out this Turk army combination - 6 JHI, 3 Xbows, 2 THA (+2 from Tripoli), 2 TF (+2 from Anatolia), 2 AHC (+2 from Armenia) and one Ghulam BG General. Go head on against army you choose.

Position the THA wide and advanced, with the AHC behind them. (Scorpion is good for this, but leaves the missiles in the wrong place, so you have to bring them up before advancing - plus the JHI are too deeply formed. It's good to use as it is sometimes, though) Place the TF wide and advanced in front of the infantry lines, next the XBows centre and front, with the JHI behind them. Leave space between the Xbows for the JHI to come through.

First flank with the THA, with the AHC moving up behind them, and bring the foot up. If the enemy, as usual, brings missile units to the front keep the TF moving up while the Xbows start firing - the JHI should be still out of range. Then charge any enemy archers with the TF, followed by the JHI pointed at the enemy infantry and cavalry. If the TF engage with infantry withdraw them, and stop them just behind the action.

Don't give the enemy archers time to target the JHI with leisurely missile exchanges. Point one JHI unit at the RK king or general and keep them advancing. Use the THA, who should be flanked to be slightly behind the enemy line, to pursue routers, and clean up archers halted behind the infantry lines. When not busy they can fire at any available targets. The AHC, also flanked and behind, following the THA, will take any RKs or Arbs that have kept out of the action. Also use them to pursue, or to break heavy infantry that's engaged from the front with JHI. The Turk Xbows should now be behind everyone else, targeted at any non-engaged enemy units. Battles can be over in 5 minutes.

Like I say - too powerful really.

You may need to pause and micro manage a bit at first, keeping the THA from getting too entangled. With practice this is one oiled fluid attack that rolls over everything.

******************************************************
I've just set this up as a Custom Battle, on Flatinland01, Arid, as described:

the French, all silver armour: 1 RK +3, 1 RK 0, 1 CK 0, 2 MS 1, 2 Halbs 0, 2 CS 1, 2 CMAA 0, 2 Archers 1, 3 PXBows 0 (no Arbs available... Hmm) - Cost 78,000
- that's better than any crusade army I've ever seen

Turks, all silver armour: 1 GB +3, 2 AHC +2, 2 THA +2, 2 TF +2, 3 XBows 0, 6 JHI 0 - Cost 75,000
- that's weaker than any Turk army that I'd have brought through from Early

The French immediately ran into the top right corner as I was setting up the Turks, as described - that took a little time. I positioned them while the French waited, then moved the whole army in front of the French with Ctrl A, and Alt on a lateral movement, fine tuning the placement one everyone was over.

I couldn't flank on the right as planned, due to the French in a corner. There I had to bring up a JHI as the French advanced a PavXBow then sent a CS chasing the Turk cavalry on the cramped right hand side. Engaging the CS with the JHI I moved the THA and AHC around behind them.

On the left the French advanced Archers and Halbs, and somehow a Halb found the AHC over there as I was repositioning them, so I let them fight, and charged them from the rear with the THA. I did that a few times. The other Halb advanced, in line with the French CMAA and CS coming forward.

Centre and left the Turk infantry advanced as described, with the JHI coming through the XBows to engage the advancing French CS and CMAA and other Halb. I had grouped them, and clicked behind the French line to advance them in line. The French CK charged in, while their missile units went behind. I attacked these with the THA and AHC now behind on the right, with the GB now threading through to do the same. The MS pushed through on the left, trying to get at the XBows and TF. Then the French general (RK Val 3) charged through the centre.

The battle was over in about 5 minutes.

Turks - killed 649, taken 314 - Men Lost 353. French routed, general killed.

The CMAA were simply shredded. The CS lasted a bit longer before fleeing. The Halbs did ok, but the centre one broke and ran, stopped, and was the last unit to flee in the end, fairly intact. The AHC and THA vs Halb battle lasted the longest, with the AHC losing half the unit before the Halb broke.

I did have to Pause more than usual, and lost most of a TF who was caught by an advancing CMAA. The JHI lost over a third of their numbers - 225 casualities. I would usually expect to do much better than this, and lose more like 60 - 100 max in such a high octane battle. I'm a bit out of practice, and this was rushed for demo purposes. (That's my excuse. Heh).

As I said, I grouped the remaining 5 JHI and clicked for them to move behind the French line. As a result they didn't charge, and the initial contact showed the CS, CMAA and CK winning their battles - but that soon changed - the JHI ate them. Ditto the Knights. The French simply collapsed.

I've saved the battle, and taken a screen shot ... if there's anywhere to put such things. Anyways, you can try this out for yourself, if you're interested. It's not personal Caravel - I'm just keen for you to see what an amazing unit the JHI are.

If I've bored anyone with this - sorry.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sharpshooter

I was a little shocked at Caravel's remarks about JHI. I guess it's just from not using them. So they are a favourite unit, although really I find them too powerful. I think the discussion about under-rated units was more interesting.

---

Hmmm... how to get my point across regarding JHI...

Firstly I'm mainly an early period player, so I'm usually in a very strong position by the high period anyway and haven't needed JHI thus far. They can only be trained in one province in the vanilla game, that is the province with the Grand Mosque and Military Academy (unless you demolish the mosque and rebuild it etc). It takes quite a while to tech up to them also. Secondly they don't really fit my style of battle and the tactics I use. As the Turks my armies tend to be heavy with Saracen Infantry and skirmishers such as Futuwwa and Turcoman Foot, but cavalry such as AHC and Turcoman Horse make up the bulk of my forces. I like to have a very mobile force, and not one made up of heavy infantry units (this is probably what I meant by "slow", bad choice of wording on my part.). When the Janissaries do become available I will train a few, mostly JI rather than JHI. Thirdly I'm not a big fan of uber units. I find units such as Viking Huscarles overpowered and unchallenging to use.

Really I suppose it's down to personal preference.

-Edit: Almost forgot my manners there. Welcome to the org, and the main hall in particular, sharpshooter. You clearly know your stuff.

:bow:

Thanks for the welcome Caravel.

Ya, I do agree with what you say - the JHI are an uber unit that easily takes away the challenge.

There's a number of elite units I do like, but it's the underdog/lesser known selections that are the most interesting - and I do have a taste for the hybrids and auxilleries. Each unit has its time and a best way of using them, and its the phase of the game that often determines their effectiveness. Armour and valour can transform apparently mundane units.

Which leads me to the subject of this thread - no surprises that there's a few Turks there. I'm gonna lean to the Islamics, since they've not been as covered.

Turcoman Foot (TF) - fast, versatile, a good archer able to melee. I like the rabble formation somehow, and they stay in my Turk armies right the way through. Hard nuts when +2 out of Anatolia with an MB.

Bulgarian Brigands - similar to TF, I use them with Byzantine Cavalry in Byz armies in the same manner as TF/THA symbiosis I find in the Turks - shame the Byz don't have a fast spear unit. Unfortunately their build requirements (MB) are too high - they should be at Castle level, so don't get used as much as they should. They're great in deserts, too.

Crossbows (XBows) - underrated, and always in the shadow of Arbs. I didn't appreciate them until the Turks gave me no option since they don't get Arbs. They do a surprising amount of damage given time, and they're great on bridge defences. I put them out front against Horse Archers, especially the MHA, and against Jinetes. Even with Catholics I'm not in such a hurry for Arbs now. I've often killed over 100 with these in long battles.

Armenian Heavy Cavalry (AHC) - ok, an elite unit, with no need to say much about these. Simply the bomb when +2 from Armenia with the MHB.

Urban Militia +1 from Tuscany (TM) - the Italians secret weapon very early in the game.

Polish Retainers - another elite unit, only available to the Poles in High and Late. They're at their peak when the High period starts - you don't need to count the turns for the Royal courts to get built. Get an MHB first, (the AI rewards that with Acumen) and at +1 they're better than FK0's. They wilt a bit in the end game of High and in Late.

Mounted Crossbowmen - so easy to build, and so useful. Fast and versatile, and at their peak in Early and very early in the game. Pull enemy defensive and offensive positions apart, even if you're not doing much damage with them. Use them as light cavalry to run down the routers, and charge Archers with them. Snipe at the general, and uber units. Behind the defensive line as a missile unit they'll also kill over 100 in a long defensive battle.

Those 2 uber Kats that hang out in Greece? They'll retreat to the Castle at the sight of a single Mounted XBowman advancing while the rest of your army camp on a hill. Hire one for the job if you can't train them. Take them to Switzerland for the SAPs in Late.

Funny how you can have the mounted version 120 years before the foot version.

Muwahid Foot - another fast and versatile unit, with a brilliant charge, and good attack for spears. Able to pin knights for someone else to attack if you don't leave them too long at it. High morale (4) means they'll stick at the job, and be around even with 2/3 of the unit gone. Mangle Militia Sergeants and Feudal Sergeants with the charge - and if there's Ghazi or AUM nearby its all over in the local fight. Chase archers. Be the first to the top of the hill with this unit, and if you've got fast bows no one can push you off it. Confuse the enemy with a criss cross movement when advancing ...

Every Muslim army should have a couple - and they come into their own for the Turks (yes, again), filing up behind the TF and THA. Put them ahead of the Futs, and keep the Ghazi (also fast) wider and level with the Muw's.(Put the Futs and Ghazi on Hold Position to restrain them even when moving - both will charge Knights head on given the slightest opportunity). Have the AHC wide and level with the TF. Give everyone lots of space, with the Saracen Infantry, maybe only 1, at the bottom of a long loose V shape to protect the bows against cavalry charges. All wings and no centre, loose and fast - a killing machine! Get Turkish! Heh.

Get the Muwahids some decent armour and +1 from an MS, and watch them shine. Get sunglasses.

**********************************************************

There's lots more (can you tell I'm enthusiastic?) and ... errr ... the Ottoman Sipahi do have bows in vanilla, and dismount to TF for sieges. With Ottoman Foot (naturally the Sipahi are +1 from Edessa) they're another way to do the TF/THA thing, but a bit chunkier in keeping with the Late season.

Berber Camels - yes yes yes - take the time with them - use them to charge archers as well as flank cavalry. They can fire arrows when not doing anything else. Jinetes really don't like them, and find them hard to get around, being peppered with arrows as they try. Camel Warriors - yes yes yes - build that Fort in Syria and have a Bowyer just so you can armour them up while you build your spy centre. Throw them head on at those early unarmoured crusading RKs - flank the Kats, and demoralise the Mounted Sergeants to the point of desertion. Swat archers. Watch out for a few coming through with +3 for Pride.

I'm gonna give Vikings a bit more attention after their write up in this thread. I've been taking them for granted. (Did I mention Slav Warriors, especially the ones through the metalsmith in Bohemia? Look out for a couple with Pride with these, too)

Of course, I do like the elite units: Boyars, JHI, Huscarles, Varangians, Kats, Lancers - it's just a shame they have so little real opposition ... and I like the Halbs and Arbs that make the backbone of my High and Late catholic armies ... and the Pecheneg Cav that Gregori mentioned for the Byz in BKB's mod - fantastic, you can charge enemy archers across the front of their lines and they stand up in a fight ... and Swiss Pikemen - so strong before you get SAPs you wonder if you need them ... but I've surely said enough now, or even a few para's back ...

Heh.

Ok, enough. I greatly enjoyed reading the forum's selections. Good to bring this thread up like you did Sensei - it's one that should be dusted down every so often - regularly. Next time tell me I can only choose 1 favourite unit.

*puts some ketchup on his words, trying to make them palatable to eat*

Oops - was I having a brain spasm?

Ottoman Sipahi don't have bows in Vanilla - or in VI. I was wrong (and Caravel, of course, was right). They do dismount to Turcoman Foot in sieges (why with bows dismounted and not mounted - maybe because there's no real Turk sword unit?)

Anyway ----- *munch* *munch*

Ottoman Sipahi do have compound bows in the Pocket Mod and are called "Timarli Sipahi". They're also a lot stronger but are only available in the late era and don't dismount to anything.

:bow:

my favourite unit is jinetes
theyre fast so they can chase down routers
good against armour (i think) so they can weaken men at arms quite well as well as sergeants and when theyve got a bit of valour can make for some awesome battlefield assassin units to kill the generals
decent in melee when charged into the flank or rear

main use of them from me is to go around the back of the enemy army and throw a few javelins at the generals units then retreat and have another unit or 2 come from the other side to throw into the rear again then when they tuirn around charge with the first lot 75% of the time it destroys the generals unit with minimul casualties and lets you get out leaveing the army to reeling while your charge of royal knights feudal men at arms and yet more jinetes (this time fresh) to mop up with

Jinetes themselves don't have an AP attack, it's the javelins that are AP. These are very effective against armoured units.

yeah i ment the javelins had the armour piercing attack.
nothing beats a bit of spannish jinete spam coupled with some javelinmen and el cid with castilian title :)

Except maybe some AUM, Muwahid Foot and Murabitin Infantry. :2thumbsup:

Congratulations on promotion to member predaturd.

-Edit: And sharpshooter too. :2thumbsup:

:bow:

woohoo at last no more 5 minute wait :)

ill just charge your murabitin with jinetes pepper the aum with jinetes and pepper and flank the muwahid after :)

I have always held a fondness for Fyrdmen - a VERY useful spear unit in VI/early.

Also Celtic Warriors, once teched up and valored up can be quite amazing.

Jinetes, as has been noted by more than one, can be a very useful armour/AUM stopper. I had very little regard for them initially, but once I got to play with them a touch, found they can be a very dangerous unit on the field.

Beserkers are fun. One of my fave parts of my Pict VI campaign was to send a unit of beserkers into the flank/rear of any large enemy formation and watch to see if any bad guys survived to run away.

Pictish cav, Wallachian cav (XL), and Steppe cav are all very useful for disrupting an advancing enemy, hacking through unprotected archers, and running down the routers.

Turning the discussion around ever so slightly - some units that have really caused me some grief (and as a result I would love to one day have on my side) - Bashkorts...absolutely destroyed my beautiful mtd xbows...and anything else that got too close. What are they? Javelin men on steroids?....Vikings...I have watched in horror as they shredded royal knights that had charged their rear, and woe betide anything that had to hold their charge.

Cuman heavy cavalry were frighteningly difficult to stop as well...and, JHI's are one of the main reasons that I so often think to myself, gee I have to give the Turks a go some time....

My most hated unit would have to be HA (on the receiving end, of course). I have never mastered the fine art of catching the buggers, and nothing irritates me more then losing a battle to the Golden Horde or Turks because they only have HA.

@ Predaturd and Caravel re Jinetes vs AUM

Berber Camels!

If I'm the Almos going against that horde of Jinetes the early Spanish use I take 3 -4 of these along - they stop the Jinetes going round the flanks (they take up so much space). The Jinetes seem to back off quickly when these guys amble into their space, pushing them back and away from the Almo infantry.

Jinetes are great, though. I look forward to getting them if I'm England or France, and don't have any mounted missiles from the start. I've got a special soft spot for the 2 star Jinetes that you get at the start of Aragon Late - he gets the Aragon title, and usually ends up with 8*.

Indeed a well balanced Almohad force will should easily be able to deal with any Castilian one until the high era, when the catholic factions really start to gain the edge over their muslim and orthodox neighbours.

and if i decide to use jinetes to stop aum advances and move my army inch by inch closer so i can rain down some arrowry death at your camels then charge the rear with feudal knights?

While your amry is inching close the berber camels would already be on your flanks peppering your forces and destroying morale. Desert Archers would be returning fire onto your infantry and archers. Your Feudal Knights charge would be recieved my the Muwahids that are ideal gap pluggers. Murabitin would hit them with a volley of javelins and AUM would then be deployed onto their flanks, and finally the camels would charge them down from the rear and mop up the routers, making maximum use of the camels vs horses bonus, allowing the AUM to move on to tackling your infantry.

The Almohads, properly managed, are a highly effective force in the early era.

:bow:

and when i charge out my feudal knights when you attempt to peper me then charge my jinetes into your desert archers with some javelinmen peppering your muwahids and militia serjeants smashing into your aum what do you do then?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by predaturd

my favourite unit is jinetes
theyre fast so they can chase down routers
good against armour (i think) so they can weaken men at arms quite well as well as sergeants and when theyve got a bit of valour can make for some awesome battlefield assassin units to kill the generals
decent in melee when charged into the flank or rear

main use of them from me is to go around the back of the enemy army and throw a few javelins at the generals units then retreat and have another unit or 2 come from the other side to throw into the rear again then when they tuirn around charge with the first lot 75% of the time it destroys the generals unit with minimul casualties and lets you get out leaveing the army to reeling while your charge of royal knights feudal men at arms and yet more jinetes (this time fresh) to mop up with

---

Jinettes are insanely brave but a unit of lowly archers backed by spears will beat them every time. Much better in the hands of a human player though.

I've taken a liking to Cuman Warriors, great bow unit but also pretty good in melee. In my latest campaign they stood firm against repeated charges by Mongol Heavies and defeated them. They had a couple of armour upgrades and high morale from shrines but I was still surprised how well they did.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by predaturd

and when i charge out my feudal knights when you attempt to peper me

---

AUM in held formaton will deploy forward to absorb the charge then switch back to engage at will once in melee. Muwahid and a Murabitin will hit the flanks and berber camels move to the rear to charge and clean up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by predaturd

then charge my jinetes into your desert archers

---

As above, though you'll have difficulty as my desert archers tend to be under the watchful eye of my AUM and Muwahid units, who know only too well that they are, with the camels, their best hopes against the Jinetes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by predaturd

with some javelinmen peppering your muwahids and militia serjeants smashing into your aum what do you do then?

---

Quickly deploy some Saharan Cavalry around onto the flanks of the MS and hold them there to trigger "worried about flanks" morale penalty, then move the Murabitin into position and hit the MS with a few javelin volleys to soften them up and drive the Saharan Cav home. Result: Morale disintegration and chain rout. The berbers whom should now be free will then volley and chase down the javelinmen.

:bow:

Edit: -

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gregori99

Jinettes are insanely brave but a unit of lowly archers backed by spears will beat them every time. Much better in the hands of a human player though.

---

The AI is hopeless with Jinetes because it cannot turn off skirmish mode. Skirmish mode will always cause the unit to break off a split second before ready to throw javelins.

OK, this could be considered anm exploit, but does anyone else use Druzina Cavalry for the express purpose of dismounting them into a 60 man unit of Feudal Footknights?

I'm thinking of starting a game as Russia or Novgorod just so I can build these guys and use them as my staple Infantry.

My favourite MTW xl units is the rare Angevin infantry purely for the novelty, there not desperatly great and the development is a pain, Before I tried NTW I kept building vast quantities of artillery in MTW, I like to soften the enemy before sending in my lads.

https://img528.imageshack.us/img528/...nfantrytk1.png
https://img528.imageshack.us/img528/...7fa674893b.jpg

https://img528.imageshack.us/img528/...tillerymx4.png
https://img528.imageshack.us/img528/...95a66ab4e0.jpg

someone please enlighten me to agevin infantry

They're a unit included in, unless I'm very much mistaken, the XL mod.

:bow:

Aye, they are in XL. They are only trainable by the English. A pretty good heavy infantry, but are rather hindered by ridiculous training requirements.(A county militia and a chapter house) Hence, when I use XL, I usually mod the requirements down to the next lowest militia building, so that they can actually be trained at a reasonable time.

Ha - I think Predaturd as the Spanish and Caravel as the Almos should have an MP battle, and save the result for us all to see.

That would be entertaining.