Breaking enemy alliances (?)

Hi all, playing as Pontus in the later parts of the 3rd century BC, I've secured Asia minor and I am currently "turtling" and developing my economy and homeland, and more importantly, my military buildings before I go on major expeditions.

My problem is this - the damn Ptolemies and AS are allied. Hayasdan still lives but is a protectorate of AS. The sauromatae are also the ally of the AS and threaten my bosphoran holdings even though they are way too poor to be a real threat ATM...i dont want to let them build into full armies of their elites though.

I want to throw the middle east into war. I am never going to take Antiocheia because if i do, thats a relentless attack from those damn egyptians and the AS at a city that is not in a very good position to be defended (fighting on 2 fronts at once).

Should I just wait for them to start fighting and then swoop in during the conflict? or is there any way for me to disrupt the power balance, because I really want to help my baktrain and carthaginian allies but the grey and yellow death have a firm and profitable chokehold on the whole area. Any advice would be great!!

This is a really epic feeling as my alliance takes on the 3 allied successor kingdoms (but macedon is currently protectorated and locked down in little Tylis by my friend epeiros). I will post my games' progression so far as soon as I get home, and I think you all will really find it interesting with the amount of unexpected success of factions that usually fail.

The only "easy" way of breaking an alliance or protectorate between two factions is to ally with one and then attack the other. Unfortunately this doesn't work if you're at war with a faction and can't ally with their allies.
You could however try to get a peace, then quickly form some alliances and restart the war. Especially the AS often wants me to become a protectorate, if you agree and in the next turn tell them the alliance is cancelled, you're at peace with them and don't loose any money. RTW diplomacy is tricky...

You could try to pay them to attack by diplomacy, but whether they go through with it is not sure, even unlikely.

Ha,I can feel your pain.In my Makedonia campaing I was allied to Epirus and fighting Romans.Epirus owned Capua and Taras,while I owned Rhegion and Sicily.And all of a sudden Epirus got a ceasefire with Romans and 2 turns later allied to them,and attacked me.I was so pissed off...gotta love RTW AI.

When I play Pontos....I break the alliance with AS with my diplo, and then attack them before they attack me....they instantly break alliances with baktria, parthia and hayasdan....

Im my current pontos game, the as is at war with all four of us, as well as the Maks and Ptolemies. Needless to say, they're screwed, and I've taken they're western asia minor holdings at my leisure. :yes:

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Originally Posted by bovi

You could try to pay them to attack by diplomacy, but whether they go through with it is not sure, even unlikely.

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Actually in my experience I've found the opposite. If the AI agrees to attack another faction, I've noticed that 90% of the time it does, just don't expect any full on invasions (getting a unit of pandapadoi to cough on an enemy settlement is probably the best to expect, but at least it'll break up the alliance).
I wouldn't worry about it, alliance or not everyone will turn on you in the end anyway :laugh4:

Ah, yes: AS & Ptolemaioi allied and the Hay meddling ... That's why I try to smash the Hay AFAP with Pontos.

My suggestions:

- Smash the Hay ASAP/AFAP. BTW, you get some cities with mines (their capital and Georgia & the city north of their capital I'd guess are their's).
- Monitor/watch the Sauromatae with watchtowers & spies. If you can afford it, use spies to set up unrest in their cities bordering yours.
- Take a look at the diplo-screen: who are the ennemies of AS & Ptolemaioi? If any (else than you/ ;-) ), try to make an alliance with them. The old "My ennemies' ennemies are my friends" work fine here.
- Depending on your frontline with AS, use 1 or 2 "Mobile Defence Forces" with, say 1 (better 2) FMs/Generals, 2 medium cavs and say, 4+ HAs. Your budget might suffer though.
- But to improve it a bit, gather a decent/good infantry army with at least 6 Pantodapoi Phalangitai (yes, I know this is singular), 6-8 slingers (hellen ones are cheaper than eastern ones, if I remember well), say two skirmishers and 2 or 4 spearmen/swordsmen. Take a FM or General that is dependable/has no gouvernor qualities/has a good potential as general and put him in command, et voilà: your sucuide raiding army is ready for action. Pay the dear AS some visits, get into their cities, slaughter all and everything, destroy all the buildings (exept unique ones, you are never able to rebuild those & I simply cannot behave that ... "barbarian") and continue your "AS raiding tour". At a certain point, if available, you can/could reinforce your army by mercenaries and thous prolonging your tour. But remember, this army is meant to finally die after giving you what you need most: cash & a crippled AS.
- Feel free to repeat this with the Ptolemaioi.

Yours, Treverer

P.S. if you roleplay your faction, you might switch the killing to enslaving: you offer them shelter & ... whatever in your Kingdom. Well after all, these old Persian lands should be ruled by your King and his decendants, one day ...

What's AFAP? If you only wrote it once, I'd think you misspelled ASAP, but you even put it next to ASAP. As Fast As Possible perhaps, meaning the same as ASAP?

conquer a few cities give it to an Ally of the Selceudics who are not allied to the Ptolimaio and see what happens. You'll get a new ally or they'll break the alliance and after a while you can ask assistance from one of them against the other.

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Originally Posted by Treverer

Ah, yes: AS & Ptolemaioi allied and the Hay meddling ... That's why I try to smash the Hay AFAP with Pontos.

My suggestions:

- Smash the Hay ASAP/AFAP. BTW, you get some cities with mines (their capital and Georgia & the city north of their capital I'd guess are their's).

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Yeah those bastards have 3 (or 4?) cities. since its nearly 50 years into the game, I'm guessing that they are probably quite well developed inspite of their protectorate tax. They don't seem to be exactly thriving, though...

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Originally Posted by Treverer

- Monitor/watch the Sauromatae with watchtowers & spies. If you can afford it, use spies to set up unrest in their cities bordering yours.
).

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These guys are a joke. They have a quite expansive empire but are poor as the dirt they lord themselves over. I have seen the random rebel uprisings put them to shame...in fact one even took a settlement from them, with no hint of reprisal yet.

I also like to keep FOW off, because it leads to very fun end of turns....you can see exactly the battles the computer is fighting in far off lands, better than just watching the names and symbols of factions scroll by. I don't consider it cheating in the least. Now I wish that I could actually WATCH the computer battles (as in battle map battles)

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Originally Posted by Treverer

- Take a look at the diplo-screen: who are the ennemies of AS & Ptolemaioi? If any (else than you/ ;-) ), try to make an alliance with them. The old "My ennemies' ennemies are my friends" work fine here.

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Carthage and Baktria and Rome, who are also my buddies...The whole alliance situation is very World War I-like. Carthage and Baktria are threatening the Ptol and AS empires respectively and I think that if they can push through it will destabilize power enough to get break the AS/Ptol/Mak alliance. Mak is at the protectorate mercy of Epiros anyway....

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Originally Posted by Treverer

- But to improve it a bit, gather a decent/good infantry army with at least 6 Pantodapoi Phalangitai (yes, I know this is singular), 6-8 slingers (hellen ones are cheaper than eastern ones, if I remember well), say two skirmishers and 2 or 4 spearmen/swordsmen. Take a FM or General that is dependable/has no gouvernor qualities/has a good potential as general and put him in command, et voilà: your sucuide raiding army is ready for action. Pay the dear AS some visits, get into their cities, slaughter all and everything, destroy all the buildings (exept unique ones, you are never able to rebuild those & I simply cannot behave that ... "barbarian") and continue your "AS raiding tour". At a certain point, if available, you can/could reinforce your army by mercenaries and thous prolonging your tour. But remember, this army is meant to finally die after giving you what you need most: cash & a crippled AS.

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I've got tons of cash, I'm literally rolling in it as all my settlements are at the foremost of technology (I've gotten the most advanced faction a lot). THey are all becoming huge cities soon, with ALL the public order/happiness, military, and economic buildings built or in progress. I don't want to cripple the AS yet just make the Ptols abandon them so i can sack egypt and then take my victory conditions. THose egyptians are really gonna get it, I hate them so much.

And i do destroy unique buildings sometimes. I tore down the colossus of Rhodes (along with every other building I could tear down) after the KH betrayed me in a bizarre order of events....I completely decimated Rhodes in buildings and population (TWICE!)and then left it to give back to the treacherous Greeks.

But on the other hand, I kept the Galatian forest and I will likely keep all other wonders...though I'm still debating what I'm going to do with the Egyptian wonders, I hate them so much.

I've always noticed that the Greek factions (except for Epirus, he's cool with me) are always betraying me and being general jerks. :furious3:

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Originally Posted by Treverer

P.S. if you roleplay your faction, you might switch the killing to enslaving: you offer them shelter & ... whatever in your Kingdom. Well after all, these old Persian lands should be ruled by your King and his decendants, one day ...

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Yeah I avoid killing and enslaving if the lead general is "unselfish". If he is "selfish" though, and "loyal", the screams will definitely be loud if the enemy crimes warrant it.

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Originally Posted by Karo

conquer a few cities give it to an Ally of the Selceudics who are not allied to the Ptolimaio and see what happens. You'll get a new ally or they'll break the alliance and after a while you can ask assistance from one of them against the other.

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How do you give cities to allies? I can never get them to accept. Do you have a method or do I have to use the "force diplomacy" mod?

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Originally Posted by gurakshun

I've always noticed that the Greek factions (except for Epirus, he's cool with me) are always betraying me and being general jerks. :furious3:

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The greeks are in no way unique in doing this, thye just happen to be the closest to you, so the AI atomaticaly attacks you if you share a border, basicaly.

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Originally Posted by gurakshun

How do you give cities to allies? I can never get them to accept. Do you have a method or do I have to use the "force diplomacy" mod?

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Try offering them as a gift, not as an exachange (which is default).
AFAIK if you offer as a gift, the AI will always accept.

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Originally Posted by Pharnakes

The greeks are in no way unique in doing this, thye just happen to be the closest to you, so the AI atomaticaly attacks you if you share a border, basicaly.

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I already knew that, but in all my games the Greek factions save for a few have always backstabbed me way more often thatn the other factions, I say this from playing as the gaulish factions and rome...its always the greek factions that backstab and nearly half the time they never even share a border with me. Believe me, I have a decent understanding of the AI but this is just a funny observation that is probably specific to me only.

I have had the AI refuse a gift of a settlement before, but in all fairness I had reduced the settlement to rubble, so maybe the AI will check the condition of the city before accepting.

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Originally Posted by gurakshun

How do you give cities to allies? I can never get them to accept. Do you have a method or do I have to use the "force diplomacy" mod?

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Use the force diplomacy mod but give it to an ally of the Selceudics; cities of the ptolles you have conquerd recently. what ever happens you'll win. They'll break the alliance, win ptollie tries to conquer back the cities or you'll have an new ally in the area.

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Originally Posted by bovi

What's AFAP? If you only wrote it once, I'd think you misspelled ASAP, but you even put it next to ASAP. As Fast As Possible perhaps, meaning the same as ASAP?

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Or As Far As Possible? :juggle:

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AFAP

Never rely on RTW diplomacy people. CA already confirmed that it was programmed separately from the military AI. If you want it to work, you have to devastate the military of your target faction so that it shouldn't take precedence, which already rules out the need for diplomacy in the first place doesn't it?

In my recent campaign I got ceasefire and trade rights plus the settlement I had besieged just to be attacked again the next turn. The military AI is the working one and it doesn't even know there is diplomacy built into the game, let alone regard it. :wall:
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Originally Posted by bovi

What's AFAP? If you only wrote it once, I'd think you misspelled ASAP, but you even put it next to ASAP. As Fast As Possible perhaps, meaning the same as ASAP?

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You're right with both conclusions. Please do not forget that English/American is not my mother... -tongue (or mother-language ??). And after having written all of it down, I was in a hurry and had not the time to re-read and correct it all.

T.

Edit: P.S.@ Mouzafphaerre: thank you for this really, really useful link.

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Always a pleasure. :bow:

mother-toungue or first language I suppose. ~:)
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Originally Posted by gurakshun

Yeah those bastards have 3 (or 4?) cities. since its nearly 50 years into the game, I'm guessing that they are probably quite well developed inspite of their protectorate tax. They don't seem to be exactly thriving, though...

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Take the Hai out of the game AFAP. IT's better that way ... :yes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gurakshun

These guys are a joke. They have a quite expansive empire but are poor as the dirt they lord themselves over. I have seen the random rebel uprisings put them to shame...in fact one even took a settlement from them, with no hint of reprisal yet.

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I had complet(e)ly forgotten to mention that the Sauromatae usually are at war with either or both the Pahlav-i/oi/s & Saka-i/oi/s, which lets their attention turn toward the steppes and not toward the Chersonesos/Krim. :beam:

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Originally Posted by gurakshun

Carthage and Baktria and Rome, who are also my buddies...The whole alliance situation is very World War I-like. Carthage and Baktria are threatening the Ptol and AS empires respectively and I think that if they can push through it will destabilize power enough to get break the AS/Ptol/Mak alliance. Mak is at the protectorate mercy of Epiros anyway....

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What is your western-most province? Are you already in Europe or in Asia Minor yet? You surely know of the rich mines of Makedonia (Pella) and Dalmatia (??), each giving 1,800 on level 1 (at least when playing with the City-mod ...)?

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Originally Posted by gurakshun

I've got tons of cash, I'm literally rolling in it as all my settlements are at the foremost of technology (I've gotten the most advanced faction a lot). THey are all becoming huge cities soon, with ALL the public order/happiness, military, and economic buildings built or in progress. I don't want to cripple the AS yet just make the Ptols abandon them so i can sack egypt and then take my victory conditions. THose egyptians are really gonna get it, I hate them so much.

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After only 50 years of playing, whow! You probably know ... nay, you surely know, but use the Galatian Swordsmen against Hellenic Native Phalanxes (or whatever the AS/Ptolemaioi counterpart is named) & Tindanotae against the better ones. In my Epirote game, I've used this with splendid results: :brakelamp: :charge: :duel: ... Hehe, I feel like a real general now.

A question about your Homerules and what Victory Conditions you use: do you use Homerules and, concerning your game with Pontos, do yougo after the games' VC or do you have personal ones (e.g. re-establish the old Persian Empire)?

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Originally Posted by gurakshun

...

I've always noticed that the Greek factions (except for Epirus, he's cool with me) are always betraying me and being general jerks. :furious3:

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In my last games with Pontos, they were rather peacefully, at least towards me, as they ripped each other's throats out. In my actual game, KH looks like the winner, Makedonia's down to two provinces (both of the islands) and Epiros has its two Hellen(ic) homeprovinces.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gurakshun

Yeah I avoid killing and enslaving if the lead general is "unselfish". If he is "selfish" though, and "loyal", the screams will definitely be loud if the enemy crimes warrant it.

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An interesting Homerule ... I should adapt it.

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Originally Posted by Mouzafphaerre

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...

mother-toungue or first language I suppose. ~:)
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That's one of the so-called "false friends" to me, as in my first language it is "mother-language" / "mamme sprooch".

Yours, T.

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Originally Posted by Treverer

That's one of the so-called "false friends" to me, as in my first language it is "mother-language" / "mamme sprooch".

Yours, T.

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Same here! ~D ana dili

But dil stands for both tongue and language. ~;p However, there's always the Arabic loanword lisan for the latter, in cases of confusion. But then, dil also is a loanword (poetic) from Persian for heart so... :dizzy:
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Originally Posted by CaesarAugustus

I have had the AI refuse a gift of a settlement before, but in all fairness I had reduced the settlement to rubble, so maybe the AI will check the condition of the city before accepting.

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I think the AI will refuse a gift if it's considered "too big".
I quite often gift the AI regular tribute of say 100 a turn when I'm running a profit in the vain hope it may stave off undue agression, however I notice the AI (except in the case of long term allies) will virtually never accept a gift of anything over 100 mnai for twenty turns. I try to offer thirty, twenty five or twenty one turns and they tell me they can't match my proposal or something :no:

Cheers

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Originally Posted by Treverer

What is your western-most province? Are you already in Europe or in Asia Minor yet? You surely know of the rich mines of Makedonia (Pella) and Dalmatia (??), each giving 1,800 on level 1 (at least when playing with the City-mod ...)?

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Byzantion is my western most city. I know about those mines and I've seen how rich other people get with them but I really dont need it that bad...All my cities that can have level 1 mines have them and i think only 1 or 2 dont have the level 2 mines done (yet). I only have 1 army that I use to kill the rebels and other weird threats, like I said im turtling, saving up, and building my home infrastructure until I can get all the troops and upgrades for them I want before I start marching out.

That means I have to get the bosphoran heavy archers, the pontic elite phalanx, maybe the galatian heavy cavalry before I start actually recruiting armies. And the small gymnasiums and blacksmiths must be constructed too. I already have access to the galatian wild men, galatian heavy spearman, and the celtic slingers (who I will phase out with the bosphoran heavy archers later).

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Originally Posted by Treverer

After only 50 years of playing, whow! You probably know ... nay, you surely know, but use the Galatian Swordsmen against Hellenic Native Phalanxes (or whatever the AS/Ptolemaioi counterpart is named) & Tindanotae against the better ones. In my Epirote game, I've used this with splendid results: :brakelamp: :charge: :duel: ... Hehe, I feel like a real general now

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Do you mean those galatian short swordsmen? If so, I love those...you can run them around the whole map and they will not get tired. its too bad their armor is so miserable that you have to watch for enemy missles constantly. I used to use them for flanking operations before I got the wildmen (who now, by their simple presence running behind the enemy, rout them before even killing them, rofl)...The galatian element of my army is currently the wildmen and the heavy spearmen, the heavy spearmen are flank guards, while the wildmen flank. I don't have much use for the shortswordsmen now, since although they are awesome the wildmen and heavy spearmen do their job much better.

Heres a question for you though, should I use the Galatian heavy cav or the Skythian noble cav? Any experiences with either?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Treverer

A question about your Homerules and what Victory Conditions you use: do you use Homerules and, concerning your game with Pontos, do yougo after the games' VC or do you have personal ones (e.g. re-establish the old Persian Empire)?

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Nah, I've got no interest in establishing the old Persian Empire. I definitely change my goals with game occurrences though, for example after my experiences with the Ptolemaioi I plan on sending an landing force down to Alexandria and just sacking the entire nile river mainland egypt, destroying everything but the ancient egyptian artifacts and alexander's artifacts.

I am also going to invade the peloponnesus and take sparta in a blitzkrieg naval assault later on too, but I'll be much nicer to greece than what's gonna happen to the egyptians.

So those are just my current plans, I probably will get new ideas as I continue. Especially I am not sure how the Romans or Germans are going to turn out and how they are going to behave to me in the future.

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Originally Posted by Treverer

In my last games with Pontos, they were rather peacefully, at least towards me, as they ripped each other's throats out. In my actual game, KH looks like the winner, Makedonia's down to two provinces (both of the islands) and Epiros has its two Hellen(ic) homeprovinces.

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The KH has recently mounted a counteroffensive and taken Thessaly, and even sieged Pella! The Epirotes are severely undergarrisoned in mainland greece, their attention seems to be well to the north defeating the rebel cities. At least they allied with Rome now, so that war is over...but their forces are still milling about in Greater Illyria....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gurakshun

Byzantion is my western most city. I know about those mines and I've seen how rich other people get with them but I really dont need it that bad...All my cities that can have level 1 mines have them and i think only 1 or 2 dont have the level 2 mines done (yet).

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Yes, Byzantion is good as kinda "spearhead" in Europe and has a mine, btw. Their faction & regional MICs also give some nice troops. Yesterday, I saw these "Thracian Elite Infantry" rushing towards my Epirote troops. Boy, they have a turbo, maybe two, and 24 valves and I-don't-know-what-more. Once outside the town, they were within seconds near my troops ... hadn't even the time to re-arrange them properly. But they fell, thanks to the Tindanotae (hired two Mercenary units) and the Slingers (4 of them), they fell rather quickly.

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Originally Posted by gurakshun

...

Do you mean those galatian short swordsmen? If so, I love those...you can run them around the whole map and they will not get tired. its too bad their armor is so miserable that you have to watch for enemy missles constantly. I used to use them for flanking operations before I got the wildmen (who now, by their simple presence running behind the enemy, rout them before even killing them, rofl)...The galatian element of my army is currently the wildmen and the heavy spearmen, the heavy spearmen are flank guards, while the wildmen flank. I don't have much use for the shortswordsmen now, since although they are awesome the wildmen and heavy spearmen do their job much better.

Heres a question for you though, should I use the Galatian heavy cav or the Skythian noble cav? Any experiences with either?

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Yep, Galatian's very, very useful, especially against Hellenic troops.

Cavalry: Well, to tell you the truth, I even use my Kinsmen Heavy Cavalry (and my FMs) as kinda "light" cavalry purchasing and slaughtering/capturing rooting ennemies. Lol ... A bit expensive for their job, ain't 'em?

As you by now can imagine, I'm an "infantry proponent" (neither a "cavalry proponent" nor a "combined arms proponent"). I win and lose battles with infantry, maybe I'm still too stuck in Vanilla RTW Roman factions in this point. My ideal Pontic army

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

maybe one or two more, as I cannot remember the max-unit-number for armies

consists of:

- 4 slingers
- 2 archers
- 6 hellenic native phalanxes

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

If you manage to let survive the original "six", they'll have 3 chevrons, or maybe one - even a second at best - silver chevron after some 20 years of playing. In my experience, they now have a chance against better, if unexperienced troops.

- 2 hellenic spearmen (or hellenic heavy skirmishers or greek classical hoplites)
- 2 skirmishers
- 6 Galatian Shortswordsmen

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

After the previously describded battle with them, I find them extremly useful in early years as flanking troops.

- a FM

Battle array:

...............sk...........sk..............
...sp..ph..ph..ph...ph..ph..ph..sp...
.............sl...ar....ar..sl...............
..gs..gs........sl.....sl.........gs..gs..
..gs................FM................gs..

With such an army, I'll get my wins in the first 20 to 30 years of gameplay.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gurakshun

Nah, I've got no interest in establishing the old Persian Empire. I definitely change my goals with game occurrences though, for example after my experiences with the Ptolemaioi I plan on sending an landing force down to Alexandria and just sacking the entire nile river mainland egypt, destroying everything but the ancient egyptian artifacts and alexander's artifacts.

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EDIT: YOU BARBARIAN, YOU HUN !! HOW CAN YOU DARE DESTROYING THE BIB ???

There were enough madmen in history who voluntarely and deliberatly destroyed books et all.

Well, I'm less concerned about the books or scrolls themselves (though they might be treasures of their own), BUT TO THE KNOWLEDGE THEY CONTAIN.

EDIT: Never, ever destroy knowledge, capice? Comprende? Compris? Verstanden? Understood? Verstannen?

EDIT: In my eyes, destroying knowledge is a sin.

EDIT: For a formal apology to gurakshun, see my next post.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gurakshun

I am also going to invade the peloponnesus and take sparta in a blitzkrieg naval assault later on too, but I'll be much nicer to greece than what's gonna happen to the egyptians.

So those are just my current plans, I probably will get new ideas as I continue. Especially I am not sure how the Romans or Germans are going to turn out and how they are going to behave to me in the future.



The KH has recently mounted a counteroffensive and taken Thessaly, and even sieged Pella! The Epirotes are severely undergarrisoned in mainland greece, their attention seems to be well to the north defeating the rebel cities. At least they allied with Rome now, so that war is over...but their forces are still milling about in Greater Illyria....

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Building the Roman Empire of, say Justinian before his conquests, eh? :2thumbsup: After seeing what provinces are gov2, I established a new homerule for Pontos:
- the Persian Faction & the Anti-Persian Faction within the Pontic nobility/royal family.

Meaning: there are those, who want to re-establish the old Persian Empire (= gov1 & gov2 provinces) and there are those, who give a <bleep> to all this and who want to conquer ... say, in a more "VC"-ish way.

Yours, Treverer

EDIT:
P.S. Forgive me my outburst concerning the Great Library of Alexandreia, but destroying knowledge just ... lets me get :furious3:
P.P.S. The exclamation "Hun" was spontanious and I meant it in the way like the UK meant it toward Germany in WWI (after KW2's [in]famous speech to the expeditionary force bound for China).
P.P.P.S. (the last one) Even the book of a certain Mr H. born in Austria does not deserve to be destroyed. IMHO its content is totally <bleep>, <bleep> and <bleep>, at least the passages I read before closing it and explaining my tutor why I refuse(d) to use it as a source.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Treverer

As you by now can imagine, I'm an "infantry proponent" (neither a "cavalry proponent" nor a "combined arms proponent"). I win and lose battles with infantry, maybe I'm still too stuck in Vanilla RTW Roman factions in this point. My ideal Pontic army

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

maybe one or two more, as I cannot remember the max-unit-number for armies

consists of:

- 4 slingers
- 2 archers
- 6 hellenic native phalanxes

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

If you manage to let survive the original "six", they'll have 3 chevrons, or maybe one - even a second at best - silver chevron after some 20 years of playing. In my experience, they now have a chance against better, if unexperienced troops.

- 2 hellenic spearmen (or hellenic heavy skirmishers or greek classical hoplites)
- 2 skirmishers
- 6 Galatian Shortswordsmen

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

After the previously describded battle with them, I find them extremly useful in early years as flanking troops.

- a FM

Battle array:

...............sk...........sk..............
...sp..ph..ph..ph...ph..ph..ph..sp...
.............sl...ar....ar..sl...............
..gs..gs........sl.....sl.........gs..gs..
..gs................FM................gs..

With such an army, I'll get my wins in the first 20 to 30 years of gameplay.


YOU BARBARIAN, YOU HUN !! HOW CAN YOU DARE DESTROYING THE BIB :book: ???

:furious3: :furious3: :furious3:

There were enough madmen in history who voluntarely and deliberatly destroyed books et all.

Well, I'm less concerned about the books or scrolls themselves (though they might be treasures of their own), BUT TO THE KNOWLEDGE THEY CONTAIN.

Never, ever destroy knowledge, capice? Comprende? Compris? Verstanden? Understood? Verstannen?


Building the Roman Empire of, say Justinian before his conquests, eh? :2thumbsup: After seeing what provinces are gov2, I established a new homerule for Pontos:
- the Persian Faction & the Anti-Persian Faction within the Pontic nobility/royal family.

Meaning: there are those, who want to re-establish the old Persian Empire (= gov1 & gov2 provinces) and there are those, who give a <bleep> to all this and who want to conquer ... say, in a more "VC"-ish way.

Yours, Treverer

P.S. Forgive me my outburst concerning the Great Library of Alexandreia, but destroying knowledge just ... lets me get :furious3:
P.P.S. The exclamation "Hun" was spontanious and I meant it in the way like the UK meant it toward Germany in WWI (after KW2's [in]famous speech to the expeditionary force bound for China).
P.P.P.S. (the last one) Even the book of a certain Mr H. born in Austria does not deserve to be destroyed. IMHO its content is totally <bleep>, <bleep> and <bleep>, at least the passages I read before closing it and explaining my tutor why I refuse(d) to use it as a source.

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That army is good for fighting in the hellenic style but possess a severe disadvantage against the missle-heavy eastern factions! not to mention the successor phalanxes!!! I do not know how you carried that army without retraining it every few turns due to casualties...especially considering the galatians can only be retrained in ancyra.

also, the galatian kluddolon are on the whole very effective and cost-effective but are much less effective in open plains! they are best used to hide in forests and spring traps, thereby making them invisible to annoying persian/whatever eastern type archers. also once the trap is sprung due to the huge size of their unit and incredible stamina, they are guaranteed to do their job against enemies who are most likely weak in forests...enemies such as that are common in pontos' area

(which is why i love the whole concept and result of the celtic mass migration to the east in 279 BC. ancyra is my favorite town by far! over here in the east, they are completely and undeniably superior to any infantry any other factions possess. which is why with them, you will win sieges always.)


and WHEN did i say i was destroying the library at alexandria! I said i was planning to sack it as in shortly removing ANY trace of ptolemy trash - i already promised not to touch the many special artifacts in the region like the pyramids, alexander's buildings...i believe i said that!!! maybe you missed the "BUT" in my original sentence.

but yeah, i am not too interested in taking greece anytime soon because 1) i love watching the 3-5 player (Mak, KH, epirus, then comes getai and the romans) drama there 2) i do not want to fight the romans, this is a rule of mine...thats part of the reason why i picked pontus, that i dont have to destroy the romans to win. now that i think about it, maybe i will recreate the persian empire but perhaps not so far east - i dont want to own and have to deal with vast miles of desert but i am definitely interested in the rich areas of antiocheia (syria and its surrounding areas). and i will probably gift the original phoenician city back to carthage as a gesture of goodwill.

Dear gurakshun,

after calming myself down and re-reading what I've written, I think I should apologize formally to you for being THAT rude. So:

Please, dear Madame/Sir, accept my apologies for calling you both a "barbarian" and a "hun" in the manner I did. This was neither fair, as I do not know you good enough, nor was it a sign of good manners. And, as you said, it lacked any reason, as the "Great Library" was an "Alexandrine Wonder".

Yours, Treverer

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gurakshun

That army is good for fighting in the hellenic style but possess a severe disadvantage against the missle-heavy eastern factions! not to mention the successor phalanxes!!! I do not know how you carried that army without retraining it every few turns due to casualties...especially considering the galatians can only be retrained in ancyra.

...

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Sorry, my fault for not precising that this is my army for conquering Asia Minor and Hellas. Before discovering the Galatian Shortswordmen as superb flanking troops, I used Greek Classic Hoplites & Hellenic Spearmen. When I turn towards the the AS or Ptolemaioi, I use a better army.

I should emphazise again, that I'm far from being a "good general": my standard method in battles is letting the enemy approach and using the 2 archer/4 slingers to weaken them, my phalanxes to hold them, my flanking troops to attack from the flanks/back and my FM to pursue routing ennemies. Not very imaginative and not always successful. But a lot of archers/slingers are an essantial part of my troops-use (not only in EB).

And I should add that the army mentioned was my standard army from EBv0.81v2 (and yes, I had to retrain VERY often). With EB1.0, I'll still experiment to find an "optimal" army composition. Well, I should say two of them: one for the "old Persian Empire" lands (= AS & Ptolemaioi) and one for Hellas/Europe. Experiments with Pontic Elite Phalanxes/Pontic Elite Swordsmen weren't that satisfactory. The Tindanotae are still - IMHO - the most valuable units for Pontic players.

As I already said, I'm not a "cavalryman", so my experience with HA, Skythian Nobles, Galatian Heavies & Royal Kinsmen and what-ever-else are neglectable. I see them purely as support troops for my infantry. Even when fighting a bigger army of the spawned eleutheroi, I use infantry. The "Mobile Defence Forces" of 1 Heavy/1-2 Medium/4 HA cavalry units are just for eleminating weaker stacks (see them as a sort of "Mounted Police").

Yours, T.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Treverer

Sorry, my fault for not precising that this is my army for conquering Asia Minor and Hellas. Before discovering the Galatian Shortswordmen as superb flanking troops, I used Greek Classic Hoplites & Hellenic Spearmen. When I turn towards the the AS or Ptolemaioi, I use a better army.

I should emphazise again, that I'm far from being a "good general": my standard method in battles is letting the enemy approach and using the 2 archer/4 slingers to weaken them, my phalanxes to hold them, my flanking troops to attack from the flanks/back and my FM to pursue routing ennemies. Not very imaginative and not always successful. But a lot of archers/slingers are an essantial part of my troops-use (not only in EB).

And I should add that the army mentioned was my standard army from EBv0.81v2 (and yes, I had to retrain VERY often). With EB1.0, I'll still experiment to find an "optimal" army composition. Well, I should say two of them: one for the "old Persian Empire" lands (= AS & Ptolemaioi) and one for Hellas/Europe. Experiments with Pontic Elite Phalanxes/Pontic Elite Swordsmen weren't that satisfactory. The Tindanotae are still - IMHO - the most valuable units for Pontic players.

As I already said, I'm not a "cavalryman", so my experience with HA, Skythian Nobles, Galatian Heavies & Royal Kinsmen and what-ever-else are neglectable. I see them purely as support troops for my infantry. Even when fighting a bigger army of the spawned eleutheroi, I use infantry. The "Mobile Defence Forces" of 1 Heavy/1-2 Medium/4 HA cavalry units are just for eleminating weaker stacks (see them as a sort of "Mounted Police").

Yours, T.

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I play the same way you do! and you give yourself a lot less credit than you deserve, you are merely capitalizing on your units' strengths....there is no shame in that, there is no point in running around units like crazy in hopes of fancy manuevers. the acronym that i hear in a lot of military strategy circles is this "K.I.S.S." = Keep It Simple Stupid. Phalanxes are designed to hold, flanking infantry is to flank. The only time I do all the crazy fancy manuevers is sieging, where manuevering is the most important because there are many important location objectives to capture quickly. It is not the same in field battles.

I like to use archers/missles in general as well...i cannot wait to get my full upgraded theurophontes toxotai shipments soon. Why was your experience with the Pontic Elite phalanx not satisfactory? They are vastly superior to the levy phalanxes in every area and will not need to be babied and retrained so often. The pontic elite swordsman, I agree, are not so great at all....the lethality is only 0.1 and the unit size is only 80. Had it been a size of 100 I would have given them a second though.

Yes, the tindanotae are the most valuable units by far. galatian heavy spearmen also perform admirably in scaring off enemy cavs while the tindanotae really throw the enemy into the meat grinder - sandwiched between the tindanotae on one side while trying to fight off advancing chalkaspides is certain doom.

I really want to get the skythian nobles soon. They cost much less than the galatian heavy cav and have better stats, for the most part - I only use them as quick strike charging hammers to break heavy armored opponents on my phalanxes (where the tindanotae would actually have a challenge).

HAs as a mobile defense force is a wonderful idea. I will have to incorporate that.

Well, "K.I.S.S." sounds good. I never served in an army and my knowledge base concerning strategy/tactics/et al. is
- trying to implement what I've read of (or is it "from" ??) men being Generals,
- watching / observeing what other players do, and
- learning from own faults.

One of the first strategy games I've played was an old SSI game "Battles of Napoleon" for the Commodere C64. What I've learned there, is until today useful: missile, defence, flanking ...

This evening I started a new game with Pontos on H/M and with large unit size. The later brings my computer to its limits (AMD Sempron 3000+, 480MB RAM & 64MB onboard graphic). The first takes me to kinda new level of experience, but I wanted to raise the difficulty and bringing it closer to what the EB-team recommands.

What was wrong with the P. Elite Phalanx? Had not enough of them, and too many P. Elite swordsman. I guess, an army of similar to the one I've posted earlier could do the match. So:

- 4 slingers
- 2 archers
- 6 P. Elite Plalanxes
- 2 Galatian Heavy Spearmen (=> roleplay)
- 2 Tindanotae (=> roleplay)
- 2 skirmishers

The "roleplay" in this context is to limit the Galatian influx, as you have only 2 provinces (Galatia & ... the province north of Byzantion) that IMHO have a major (or perhaps even minor) population of, well, Galatians.

If I remember well, the maximum units a stack can have is 20, we now have 18. One FM as CO, and maybe a second would do the match more than anything else.

One last word to the M.D.F.: I wish, there were an option to dismount them before battle ...

Yours, T.