Greek Hopolites with a twist

Just before my thread gets locked again by an over eager admin, let me ask the same question again.

Were there Greek Hopolites made up entirely of gay lovers? The reason I ask this is because I have just watched a documentary on Sparta and they talked about a battle where the Spartans were defeated by a larger theban force. During this battle there was elite phalanx units made up of men who were lovers and they were noted for their extreme dedication to each other in battle due to the fact they were lovers..

As I said in my other post a man in a phalanx had to trust the guy next to him not to run for the phalanx to keep its cohesion as the over lapping shields meant the guy next to you protected you from the enemy.

If this is historical fact wouldnt it make for another interesting unit the Greeks could use in the next EB patch?

Just a thought and a question because I love this game mod and the hard work EB guys have put into this project to make it so historically accurate.

Your thoughts lads?

Denbo

Yes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_band_of_thebes

I believe it was the Thebians who were reported to have a homosexual unit of hoplites. Thebes is dead at EB's point in history.

Sexuality in ancient history is a giant topic, but most people will tell you that the Greeks, including the Spartans, were bisexual in some sense.

wow thats mental an entire military unit created on sexuality thats genius when you think about it because of the dedication of the troops to each other.

Shame the time line doesnt fit in with EB, could have had a few laughs in battles with these guys never mind the naked barbarians we see in game!

I wonder what their voice mod would have been hehe "Go on Hector, keep your shield up and pass the lippy"

Our veiw of homosexuality isn't the same as it was in EB's time period, a love between two men was a noble thing to the Greeks as long as it was not purely lust. Although, the Romans were a bit more conserative, for the most part, although there was exceptions, as with most things.

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Originally Posted by The Internet

Our veiw of homosexuality isn't the same as it was in EB's time period, a love between two men was a noble thing to the Greeks as long as it was not purely lust. Although, the Romans were a bit more conserative, for the most part, although there was exceptions, as with most things.

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Cultures can change, but you gotta find a mans asshole attractive to be homosexual. Its not noble its gay

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Originally Posted by artavazd

Cultures can change, but you gotta find a mans asshole attractive to be homosexual. Its not noble its gay

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Okay, it is gay, but there is nothing inherntly wrong with that. Maybe it is noble? Why not?

People will do many things contrary to sense, or their nature, to increase their status. Such as buying a near useless, fancy car for much more money than they can afford without complications, or homosexuals creating families and having children for the sake of appearing "normal". As those in the latter example have been doing so for centuries in christian culture condemning the practice, I don't see why some heterosexuals wouldn't bend the other way in a culture that looked up to homosexuality.

What one reads of the matter suggests it was more of a normative thing - behaviour considered for diverse convoluted reasons appropriate for men in certain positions. AFAIK both the Greeks and the Romans were quite hierarchy-conscious around the issue too; it being more or less acceptable or even commendable for a man in a status of seniority to be, to use yaoi parlance, the seme ("top") in such a relationship and for the junior (in terms of age, social status, whatevah) partner the uke ("bottom"). Going about it the other way - the "senior" partner as the "bottom" - was apparently considered right peculiar.

The Japanese warrior class seems to have had similar practices and norms, and more-or-less comparable traditions in diverse at least partially ritual contexts apparently haven't been all that uncommon in other cultures, particularly warrior circles, either by what I've read of anthropology.

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Originally Posted by bovi

People will do many things contrary to sense, or their nature, to increase their status. Such as buying a near useless, fancy car for much more money than they can afford without complications, or homosexuals creating families and having children for the sake of appearing "normal". As those in the latter example have been doing so for centuries in christian culture condemning the practice, I don't see why some heterosexuals wouldn't bend the other way in a culture that looked up to homosexuality.

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So homosxuality is a lifestyle one is not born as one. or can it be both? I think its more of a life style because of the reasons you gave.

AFAIK it was more of a mentor/pupil thing, think about it more like the love between father and son (and for gods sake dont think I mean the sex too, I guess they figured if babies didn't come out s'all good or something :inquisitive:).
And ps as you questioned in your original post (much more eloquently put this time btw :laugh4: ), I think I remember reading the Spartans did not think about it as a sex thing, it was purely an emotional/educational bond, despite the pants in 300.

Cheers

Given that homosexuals kept turning up even in societies where being exposed as one led to an execution in some distinctly painful manner... now that's definitely nature not nurture.

The way quite a few other cultures seem to have regarded it as a perfectly good and acceptable way of, shall we say, "male bonding" and mentoring (for some reason particularly characteristically among warrior classes) is a different issue.

I do not know what causes some to prefer the same sex and others to prefer the opposite. However, there are obviously specimens of each, as well as some who are not quite so particular about their choice.

I believe, but may be wrong, that many who do prefer a particular sex would be able to void their preference in given circumstances, from having their life count on it via it giving elevated status to giving immediate gain such as money. The level necessary for this will vary between individuals of course (some probably simply won't do so, for any reason at all), and I also think the general views of their culture will affect the level, as said in my previous post.

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Originally Posted by artavazd

So homosxuality is a lifestyle one is not born as one. or can it be both? I think its more of a life style because of the reasons you gave.

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Not wanting to start a discussion on sexuality here (which, even if it stayed sensible, wouldn't be appropriate to this board). It looks like both: you are born with natural tendancies but the culture you are brought up in adjusts them to fit its own shape.

Regardless of the topic, please watch the language and graphic content.

I have two questions.

1. Was homosexuality common and accepted with just the greeks, or did it occur with other grecco nations like the selucid empire, ptolemeic kingdom, etc? What about the Romans?

2. Did this type of behavior occur with germanic or celtic tribes?

I'm sure someone can tell you about the Greeks. I'll try to explain the Roman view.

Roman view on homosexuality is quite complicated. First you have to realize that the Romans had a slightly different way to defining the gender of a person. There's the natural element of man and woman but the cultural point of view is very very strong in Roman society. There were certain things expected from a man like being brave, honesty, such things...

If you did not fulfill this as a man you were easiliy stigmatized as a woman. When you look at some of the most famous examples of senatorial propaganda like Tacitus, Suetonius or the Historia Augusta you'll noticed that emperors disliked by the aristocracy are always marked with female attributes: soft, greedy (yes greed was a female thing!), love for arts and many more things.

The same worked the other way around, women active in politics recieve comments like "although she was beautiful and blablabla, she behaved like a man".

Why do I tell you that? Roman view of homosexuality was generally defined like that as well. It was ok as long as you are the "penetrator" (then you are a man and use your male power, are active, dominant) but the one who is disliked is the passive one (who is not manly but female, or slavish).

So part of the propaganda against Caesar was that people said he was Nikomedes' boy when he was young So they said Caesar is not a man but is weak. No one would have taken offence if Caesar would have taken a slaveboy because then he would just satisfy his male needs.

So Romans don't take offense in general it just depends on who is doing what.

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Originally Posted by Denbo

Just before my thread gets locked again by an over eager admin, let me ask the same question again.

Were there Greek Hopolites made up entirely of gay lovers? The reason I ask this is because I have just watched a documentary on Sparta and they talked about a battle where the Spartans were defeated by a larger theban force. During this battle there was elite phalanx units made up of men who were lovers and they were noted for their extreme dedication to each other in battle due to the fact they were lovers..

As I said in my other post a man in a phalanx had to trust the guy next to him not to run for the phalanx to keep its cohesion as the over lapping shields meant the guy next to you protected you from the enemy.

If this is historical fact wouldnt it make for another interesting unit the Greeks could use in the next EB patch?

Just a thought and a question because I love this game mod and the hard work EB guys have put into this project to make it so historically accurate.

Your thoughts lads?

Denbo

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I will respond to this, but not now as my sis is getting married.

Some prelim. answers...

1. Ancient greeks were pretty open about sexuality issues as can be seen on their statues.

2. Homophobia wasn't something that existed back then. A lot of people existed who would do ANYTHING for money/power, men or women. As ancient greeks kept their women sequestered, that left men "ready for everything".

3. Romani propaganda at its finest. First thing you hear so far as Ancient greeks is concerned is that Thebans were all gays, and Alexander the greek was gay, and he wasn't a greek to begin with etc. Not many speak of the fact that Trajan, the greatest Romani emperor for me, was a pedophile who couldn't keep his hands off any boy he met. That for me means nothing, as I consider the man and his actions in history, NOT his sexual orientation.

4. Denbo, try to understand that most people consider the ones living next to them as smelly, ugly, bigoted, liars, gays, etc. To speak for something close at home, what you "lads" consider the "frogs". It has to do with the "us against them" ideology.

5. Arts, Mathematics, Statues, Music, Epics, city building, architecture, engineering, catapults, scorpions, tetremes, mosaics, etc. Look up who invented those. Once you do, research the term "reverse superiority complex" or "inferiority complex". It's a good start to understand.

6. Ancient History we have is mostly Romani propaganda. Celts and Qarthadastim are a prime example. The first weren't savages and the second didn't sacrifice their children. Still, Romani propaganda says so, it became history, thus all is judged by that. as the saying goes...WINNER TAKES IT ALL, or as the Romani would put it... "Woe to the vanquished".

7. EB if anything tries to "shake off" Romani propaganda so that the truth might emerge about all those magnificent people, the Celts, the Qarthadastim, the sweboz, the Pahlavan, even those puny people whose civilization is often thought of as Romani, the Greeks.

8. If you are going to make something up about someone and post it, at least write their name right. It is HOPLITES, not hopolites.

On point 8, its a shame you didnt read the link posted by the guy who posted after my first initial post in the threat, as you would see I wasnt making it up and that there really was a phalanx unit called the Sacred Band of Thebes that was made up of homosexual lovers for the reason I outlined. They defeated a Spartan army as part of a larger Theban army that faced the Spartans on open battle.

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Originally Posted by Denbo

On point 8, its a shame you didnt read the link posted by the guy who posted after my first initial post in the threat, as you would see I wasnt making it up and that there really was a phalanx unit called the Sacred Band of Thebes that was made up of homosexual lovers for the reason I outlined. They defeated a Spartan army as part of a larger Theban army that faced the Spartans on open battle.

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You honestly believe Keravnos doesn't know about the Thebans? :inquisitive:

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Originally Posted by keravnos

3. Romani propaganda at its finest. First thing you hear so far as Ancient greeks is concerned is that Thebans were all gays, and Alexander the greek was gay, and he wasn't a greek to begin with etc. Not many speak of the fact that Trajan, the greatest Romani emperor for me, was a pedophile who couldn't keep his hands off any boy he met. That for me means nothing, as I consider the man and his actions in history, NOT his sexual orientation.

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Well the Romans weren't homophobic like the people of the industrial revolution are/were. So there wouldn't be much point in them making up a story about the Sacred Band of Thebes being gay.

Besides, AFAIK they were described in very positive terms during Roman times. The Romans had no reason to make up propaganda against the Thebans, especially not the Sacred Band which was wiped out by Macedon - not exactly the best friends of Rome. As they say, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

My opinion is the same as that of Artavazd on this one.

I would say that the Olimpic games were 'homosexual' ina way actually, you had Olimpic villages that were 'closed' .. then we have many Greek units and armies that had gay's there, even Spartans were gays but just some of them.... Like in Nomad's land and Scythia - we have Women fighting by their Men .. The same is In some African tribes or if you see the Army of Israel.. i think that girls make men fight more no matter what!

What is it with Armenians and Homosexuality?

Do you people have a very homophobic society, or something?

I dont think that anyone really knows the whole story when it come to the ancients (we have very very good ideas). I myself have no problem with anyones' sexuality. I served in the military myself and when you spen 24 hours a day with the same 10 guys you learn two things very quickly 1) is you hate them all 2) You love these guys and know more about each other then your families do.
In the dirt no one cares what you preferance is, your in it together and to hell with the rest. Gay or straight, band of thebes or band of brothers, one thing i know is unit cohesion is how battles are won. We sink or swim together dosent matter how the unit got the cohesion just as long as they have it, you will never face a more determined force. Hoah

Not having anything historical to add in keravnos' and others threads, I just want to say that when we say: "Ok the Sacred Band were gay", people imagine gay as we view them today, men talking and walking in a womanly way and behaving like that as well.

The Sacred Band was able to beat the SPARTANS for God's shake in a way of warfare that would make most people nowadays cry like 5 year old girls. There is nothing more manly and brave than this.

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Originally Posted by Vorian

There is nothing more manly and brave than this.

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maybe except for slaping those heavily armed Spartans to death with their...

i think i'd better go and try to get that pic out of my head

Not to sound butthurt (pun intended given the name of the thread) but I hope Artavazd got banned for his comments in this thread... I was once banned for as little as having a family guy quote in my sig which had the words "Sex" and "Boob" in it.

Mind you, it wasn't in the EB part of the forum, but still. I think the moderator that did it was just trying to impress though, either that or on a power trip with an itchy ban finger because there were other people in the forum with things in their sig that could have been considered "offensive" to some. Perhaps they were friends of his.

Still, it's a shame that particular unit wasn't in EB. I had an AAR planned for when they got added (i thought they would be) in which i would recruit a single unit and follow their adventures (on the battlefield) until the unit was either too old and had to be disbanded or was destroyed. I even had a name for it... I was going to call it "Band of Bummers".

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Originally Posted by Dayve

Still, it's a shame that particular unit wasn't in EB. I had an AAR planned for when they got added (i thought they would be) in which i would recruit a single unit and follow their adventures (on the battlefield) until the unit was either too old and had to be disbanded or was destroyed. I even had a name for it... I was going to call it "Band of Bummers".

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Too bad that Alexander ran them over about 66 years before the start date for EB. And for some reason, the idea didn't catch on.

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Originally Posted by Sakkura

Too bad that Alexander ran them over about 66 years before the start date for EB. And for some reason, the idea didn't catch on.

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As i said, i'm no expert on ancient history. If i were i'd have been helping the EB team, instead i'm just playing their mod.

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Originally Posted by Sakkura

Too bad that Alexander ran them over about 66 years before the start date for EB. And for some reason, the idea didn't catch on.

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I understand the Thebans had something of a reputation as being a bit idiosyncratic in many ways. Anyway, given that Alex later ended up razing the city for being rebellious scum...

However, as mentioned at least semi-institutionalised homosexuality hasn't exactly been uncommon in warrior circles in particular the world over. It actually kind of makes sense when you think about it, given the amount of close male companionship warriors and soldiers tend to keep out of necessity on campaign... Not that there didn't tend to be any number of right odd and often more than a little misogynist ideas mixed in mind you.

Well the Greek culture in itself did have a tradition for homosexual relationships. But the apparently rigid and premeditated organisation of it in the Sacred Band isn't something I have heard of anywhere else.