How do [B]you[/B] utilise Thureophoroi and Lonchophoroi?

That's the question, how do you use your Thureophoroi (Hellenic Spearmen)? As Flankers, or flank guards, or as extra heavy skirmishers that can be used in melee?
And what about Lonchophoroi Hippeis (Hellenic Medium Cavalry)? Do you use them to hold the enemy cavalry, or to attack skirmishers, or for anything else?
I, at the beginning of a campaign, use Thureophoroi as flank guards and flankers, but later on, when Thorakitai (Hellenic Heavy Spearmen) are widely available, I use them as reserves to catch cavalry that has coem behind my liens or for holding the Back of a flanking Thorakitai unit so that thye themselves won't get flanked.
My Lonchophoroi Hippeis have the role to block off enemy cavalry and wear them down in ongoing melee, where they excell, so that my hard hitting cavalry can smash into the rear of the enemy.
I would really like to see, how you use these units, so that maybe we can refine our tactics:2thumbsup:

Edit: Oops, could an admin please delete the brackets from the title? I thought that that way, I could make "you" bold.

Dear sir,

would you please be so kind and post the other, English name for those units. I'm pretty sure not all of us playing EB know the Hellen/Persian/Celt/whatever-original-name when referring to units. I, for a start, simply cannot remember these names, even if I try.

Yours,
Treverer

Oh, I apologise. Thureophoroi are the "Hellenic Spearmen" and Lonchophoroi Hippeis are the "Hellenic Medium Cavalry"

Are Thorakitai really better as flankers than Thureophoroi? They have more armor but their attack value is much lower. For a flanker, killing is more needed than defense.

Thureophoroi, and Thorakitai (or even Peltastai when you are short of money) can be very usefull in any situation and can be used like Roman Legionars when you don't have enough Phalanxes (or these are to weak) for them to become the backbone of your army. They are best used on the flanks of a phalanx, but they can also be used without Phalanx, while the Phalanx can hardly survive without those flankers.

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I usually try to aviod Lonchophoroi. They are not much better than common Hippeis but much more expensive. I would prefer Prodomoi instead.

I have never really realised that Thureophoroi now have a higher attack than Thorakitai, thanks for the information Konny, it makes the Thureophoroi much more useful even later on.
And I ever thought that way about Lonchophoroi Hippeis...
Ok, they are slightly better than Hippeis, having a better charge (but with less normal damage, but that's not important as you'll always want them to switch to their secondary weapon) and an AP sword as well as higher moral. But they are really expensive for what you get...

I use the Thureophoroi/Hellenic Spearmen first and above all as flanking guards for whatever phalanxes. For flankers/shock/reserve troops I prefer regional units, like the Galatian Wildmen or the Agrianian Assault Infantry. But for the first few years of campaign, I've learned to love the Galatian Shortswordmen.

I use rarely more cavalry then my FMs'. EDIT: in field armies. As M.D.F. (kinda R.C.M.P.) I use only cavalry and use them against spawning Eleutheroi.

Yours,
Treverer

Why no cavalry?

Just cause it is so easy to exploit the AI, or for some other reason?

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Originally Posted by Pharnakes

Why no cavalry?

Just 'cause it is so easy to exploit the AI, or for some other reason?

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I don't know exactly. Maybe it's a rational calculation: for one "good" cavalry unit I get two "medium" infantry ones. And I'm more at ease when the enemy attacks me ... probably some old routines from early strategy games in 80's.

I happen to use both Thureophoroi and Lonchophoroi Hippeis in my primary army in my Arche Seleukeia campaign.

Here's my army composition:
https://img228.imageshack.us/img228/6209/as1rabm9.jpg
You might notice that my Thureophoroi have unusually high experiece, but this is only because they are the oldest units in my campaign. (I trained them in 271, 270 and 269. The year of this screenshot is 235 if I'm not mistaken.) My Basileos' somatophylakes is usually at 100 men.

And this is the order of battle:
https://img75.imageshack.us/img75/9256/as1raoobsl2.jpg
I use my prodromoi mainly as a cavalry screen. With their high experience they have no problem at all routing other medium cavalry without taking more than 10 casualties. (They're also excellent at hunting down routing enemy soldiers!) My Thureophoroi are guarding the Phalanx' left flank. Depending on the size of the enemy forces they are also used as flanking forces. My Phalanx has its strongest units on the right and its weakest units on the left. This is because I'll always try to break through the enemy left flank. Hence my Thorakitai are on the right. The Toxotai Syriakoi are also on the right. Their job is to weaken the enemy left flank during the skirmish. The same goes for the Peltastai really. Finally I use my Lonchophoroi Hippeis and Somatophylakes Strategou as shock cavalry.

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Originally Posted by Treverer

I don't know exactly. Maybe it's a rational calculation: for one "good" cavalry unit I get two "medium" infantry ones. And I'm more at ease when the enemy attacks me ... probably some old routines from early strategy games in 80's.

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If you have no cavalry, how do you deal with routing enemy soldiers? 80% of the kills my Prodromoi make are routing soldiers. Most of my battles end in all of the enemy's units routing at the same time.

I always use Thureophoroi as flankers & flank guards but mainly use them as my leading flanking assault infantry force. Thureophoroi & Thorakitai are some of my favorite troops playing as the KH and with a nice little mixture of them i kind of make up my own little "KH Legion" to fight alongside phalangites and hoplites.

I don't really use the Lonchophoroi much, but when i do, i'll use them to harass flanks and skirmishers nothing to heavy or earth shattering for them.

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Originally Posted by Folgore

If you have no cavalry, how do you deal with routing enemy soldiers? 80% of the kills my Prodromoi make are routing soldiers. Most of my battles end in all of the enemy's units routing at the same time.

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I send my two FMs/Generals after them, they have horses, haven't they? At least with the factions I use to play.

The Greeks (Koinon Hellenion) have hoplite generals, now dun' they?

A comparison:

Missle:
Thureophoroi: 6 (x3)
Hoplitai: -------
Principes (Camillan): 4 AP (x2)
------------------------------------------------
Spear attack :
Thureophoroi: 14
Hoplitai: 14
Principes (Camillan): 14
------------------------------------------------
Armour
Thureophoroi: 10
Hoplitai: 11
Principes (Camillan): 7
------------------------------------------------
Defense skill
Thureophoroi: 8
Hoplitai: 8
Principes (Camillan): 8
------------------------------------------------
Shield
Thureophoroi: 3
Hoplitai: 4
Principes (Camillan): 3
------------------------------------------------
Moral
Thureophoroi: 11
Hoplitai: 12
Principes (Camillan): 12
------------------------------------------------
Upkeep
Thureophoroi: 334
Hoplitai: 344
Principes (Camillan): 364
------------------------------------------------



The Thureophoroi should the standard medium infantry of any Hellenic army. When you are not able to field at least three units of Phalanxes in an army you should consider to abstain from Phalanx in this stack at all and use Thureophoroi instead.

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Originally Posted by The General

The Greeks (Koinon Hellenion) have hoplite generals, now dun' they?

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Indeed they do sir......and quite the bad-asses they are i might add.

Currently i am playing KH on VH/H.

Hellenic Spearmen (Thureophoroi ) is a great unit, i use them as a "jack of all trades". Normally they comprize a 1/4 of my army and get positioned on the right wing of main battle line, with auto fire on. They can withstand a great deal of damage and for some reason AI always goes for them (when i am on defense) while avoiding my pike line. That actually enable me to use my pike units as flankers in some situations.

Lonchophoroi Hippeis (Hellenic Medium Cavalry) i have yet to use, simply because i am absolutely addicted to Successor Cavalry (Prodoromoi). I have yet to see a better mounted unit period. It will be safe to say that 90% of my victories are due to them. They make outstanding "Hammer" for any faction that can recruit them.

Roman.

I use thureophoroi for flanking or for flank guarding according to the situation and what other units are in the army.

I have only ever recruited one unit of lonchophoroi hippeis, and I doubt I will recruit any more. They suck so bad - for the quick flanking/chasing down skirmishers/mowing down routers role, prodromoi are better, yet far cheaper; for the role of heavy cavalry, smashing into elite infantry or breaking the enemy cavalry, there are much stronger alternatives, such as hippeis thessalikoi, hippeis xystophoroi or hetairoi. Plus various elite cavalry units and, of course, cataphracts in some cases.

This is my basic successor infantry core for the main army:

https://img57.imageshack.us/img57/63...trycorebj5.png

The phalangites on the left are either Pantodapoi, Deuteroi or Klerouchoi. With Macedonia Thorakitai are replaced by Thureophoroi, which is then replaced by usually a Thracian unit.


Edit: With Seleucids the Hypaspistai on the left is replaced by Thorakitai Agematos Basilikou. That's a mouthful.

I have found Lonchphoroi to be exceedingly effective cavalry: light enough for more mobile duties such as mopping up fleeing armies; heavy enough to face enemy general cavalry with confidence - and particularly reliable anti-cataphract cavalry. Their second arm deals some nasty AP blows to early Parthian cataphracts who refuse to be slain by anything but the most elite / AP of infantry or the lochphoroi. (Granted one could try to send Hetairoi after them, but this will prove a logistical and financial nightmare - not to mention the fact that you will encounter plenty of other similarly difficult targets to tackle; most notorious undoubtly: the Daha nobles. Kinsmen Cavalry will also be very useful against such foes - albeit a bit more expensive. On the plus side: their AOR is more suitable for sending them against Parthians since they are available from Armarvir to Karkathiokerta to Ekbatana to Hekatompylos to Persepolis in short: just one or two regions away from your Parthian enemies.)

Lonchphoroi are though, reliable mobile yet well armed and armoured cavalry - and most importantly they are both 'widely available' (to a certain degree, but one must keep in mind that the recruitable hellenistic generals are lonchphoroi too albeit one notch better and more expensive) + affordable in terms of heavy cavalry cost.

Thorakitai are more heavily armoured Thureophoroi and this shows: defending something and you''ll want Thorakitai; attacking or out-manoeuvring something and you'll beg for Thureophoroi.

Why? Both are exceedingly reliable spearmen for the cost- you can count on them to fight till only very few of them have been left. But the Thureophoroi don't carry quite as much stuff with 'em so they will tire less quickly. Especially in difficult terrain (steep slopes most notably) or complex manoeuvres this will be very useful. On the other hand if you simply want to defend aforementioned terrain or you expect a charge of (exceedingly) heavy cavalry you'd better deploy Thorakitai.

Hmm, good post Tellos.

It has made me think of a few questions about RL thurephroi/thorakitai:

To what extent where they interchangable? ie. where there ever "mixed" units that would use whichever armour appropriate to the task, and could thus be regarded as both? (obviously not possible in game)

Did anyone ever field signifigant numbers of them against the Romans?

If so, how did they fare?


Thanks

For taking out cataphracts, I prefer to catch them with heavier cavalry, such as hetairoi, hippeis thessalikoi or, I suppose, hippeis xystophoroi (I haven't had them facing an army with cataphracts yet though). And then rush in some AP infantry, or spearmen if that's all I have on hand. I love getting my infantry into prolonged melee against cavalry.

Prodromoi have a better charge than lonchophoroi hippeis, and are more resistant to annoying missile fire, so they can run around all over the place, making lots of little charges where it really hurts the enemy. And once the enemy breaks, they are the fastest/hardiest cavalry, so they can keep pursuing stuff till the cows come home, even if you have had them running and charging a lot during the battle. And they too have a fairly wide recruitment area. I would only ever recruit lonchophoroi hippeis if all the cities where prodromoi are available were busy recruiting units and I needed even more cavalry.

Well that's more a question for the Historians on the team (which means I am not, and therefore which means you shouldn't just take my word for it ~;))... *but* Thorakitai seem to have been a bit of a rarity until the Romans started raising large amounts of such units. (I.e. Legions.) Obviously this is because of the cost of such equipment: I imagine it didn't differ that much from full Hoplite equivalent as far as the money is concerned. And given that the Hoplites did have that bit of pedigree...

Now Thureophoroi as do Peltastai wear pretty much a (lighter) version of Phalangitai style armour slightly adjusted to allow for more speed/agility or somewhat heavier protection to account for the fact that the formation itself would be less protective.

(One can shed some weight in the phalanx because the sheer formation itself offers good protection from the front; on the other hand Thureophoroi do not fight in such a protective formation - indeed their roles a widely different. Phalangitai defend & hold the line; Thureophoroi carry out agressive punches against the enemy flanks & rear + they cover for 'surprises'.)

So to me both units would very much not have been interchangable.

Instead there would probably have been members from the Phalangitai (especially the wealthier ones such as Argyraspides) who were re-equipped to fight as Thorakitai or Thureophoroi or Peltastai. (Because the wealthier member practically already wore Thorkakitai armour, so it was simply a matter of 'downscaling' - always the easy way to go.) On a side note this seems to be an explanation for the rather large numbers of Peltastai in some battles. (Who often are explicitly mentioned under that name - a rarity in itself since other troop types usually get a more general name (i.e. cavalry, galatians, allied infantry...)) If I understood some of my 'fellow barbs' correctly the term Peltastai seems to be Makedonian nomenclature for Elites also (from a linguistic point of few: it refers to carrying a light shield - so any soldier carrying a light shield may be called a Peltast), *but* in the Seleukid armies seems to simply mean phalangitai equipped to fight in a different manner.

As Pontos, I use Thureophoroi as standard infantry, because I can't recruit medium phalanx (only levy or elite). They can hold the line against most infantry units and cavalry, only when facing elite units they have to be supported by superior Galatian forces (like naked fanatics or heavy spearmen). However, even against Hypaspistai or Ptolemaic elite phalanx they don't die too quickly.
I can't contribute to the discussion about differences of Thureophoroi/Thorakitai because Pontos' Thorakitai have swords instead of spears and are as a result used in other roles on the battlefield.

Lonchophoroi were my enemies sometimes, but they didn't seem to be strong. Usually easy prey for Galatian heavy spearmen (which are one of my favourite units).

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Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios

If I understood some of my 'fellow barbs' correctly the term Peltastai seems to be Makedonian nomenclature for Elites also (from a linguistic point of few: it refers to carrying a light shield - so any soldier carrying a light shield may be called a Peltast), *but* in the Seleukid armies seems to simply mean phalangitai equipped to fight in a different manner.

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My impression is that the term peltastai at one point became almost synonymous with mercenary.

@Konny: Just checked, Thureophoroi have 14 Attack, 21 Defense and 11 Morale, whereas Thorakitai have 15 Attack, 24 Defense and 13 Morale. Thureophoroi have good stamina though, which the Thorakitai lack. So it seems Thorakitai are better for fighting the enemy head on so that the Thureophoroi can attack them from behind. Oh man, it is really time that multiplayer becomes playable again, I really have to find out if I have gotten better with my armys and see how these units are used the best.

Thanks for that Tellos, I know you're not one of the historians, I wasn't really aiming the questions at you, but thanks for answering them anyway :2thumbsup:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Meothar

Lonchophoroi were my enemies sometimes, but they didn't seem to be strong. Usually easy prey for Galatian heavy spearmen (which are one of my favourite units).

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They're shockingly expensive though, more than hypaspistai!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Meothar

Usually easy prey for Galatian heavy spearmen (which are one of my favourite units).

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Exactly the sort of enemies you'd keep your cavalry away from unless being a crazy Parthian whose horse + himself + armour weighs about as much as 7-10angry Galatians with some Mail and pointy sticks. ~;)

The lonchphoroi are a bit of a reserve cavalry; you do not actively send them pursuing stuff across the entire battle field (too heavy for the task when the enemy are still fresh) and you do not send them to break an enemy immediately.

Rather you'd tie your enemies into melee and use the Lonchpohoroi to hack through the enemy ranks (they seem to hack an awful lot faster and more agressive than Hetairoi for instance) - preferably to break a general's unit. Prodromoi are different breed altogether: they acitvely hunt down. The Lonchphoroi on the other hand are more of a screening and entrapping unit. From experience I know that enemy Sacred Band cavalry for general's bodyguards or Early Parthian Cathaphracts can be dealt with effectively by a clever use of your own Hellenistic Recruitable General.

To be fair, I've not played successors much so haven't extensively used their various heavy cavs but in my experience, Lonchophori are pretty solid.
They have good charge, good melee, good defence & with single handed spear, they are easier to get a proper charge from.
A jack of all trades cavalry equivalent to the Theureophori is how I see them.

Code:

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              SL S
LP LP LP Hop Phe Phe Hop Pez Pez
                A
TH TH                    Pel  Pel
                FM
          The The Pod

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A = Argyraspides
SL = Slinger
LP = Levy Phalangites
Hop = Hoplites
PH = Pheraspides
Pez = Pezhetairoi
Th = Thureophoroi
Pel = Peltastai
The = Thessalian Hippies
Pod = Podromoi



The Center is Heavy inf in Defense mode, who can Hold out some time on their own, The Argyrapidae are behind them.
After some time I order The Argyraspidae to march through the heavy info towards the enemy. In the same moment i turn defense mode off for my heavy inf, and togehter they push the center of the enemy battley line until it breaks.
The Phalangites are making sure that the complete enemy line is busy fighting. The Thureophoroi protect the left flank, if the path is clear they flank the opponents of the Levy Phalangites.
The Pelatastai flank the opponents of the Pezhetairoi and get backup from my cav. If the enemy outnumberes me, they only protect the right flank.
The slingers are their to figth any enemy missile units, and retreat behind the line before the contact.

This is my Standard "conquering" Makedonian Army and its tactic. Proven against many battles against the, well the AI ;-)
The units change a bit, depending on availability and money (Thracian Peltasts/ Hetairo/ Hypaspistai, regionals etc..) but the main concept always stays the same.

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The = Thesallian Hippies

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Thessalian Hippies, yes? =D

I cannot resist pointing out another spelling mistake:
Argyraspides! Pheraspides! -es! :clown:

If your going to I'll be a hypocrite and follow suite:


Phalangites

Doesn't seem to be your lucky day, Bonny.:laugh4:


God, I can't wait for the day that I spot Tellos making a spelling mistake...

@ Folgore and Thaatu

how did you make those deployment sketches ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thaatu

With Seleucids the Hypaspistai on the left is replaced by Thorakitai Agematos Basilikou. That's a mouthful.

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Is that a new unit, or simply a rename of the thorakitai argyraspiadai?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pharnakes

God, I can't wait for the day that I spot Tellos making a spelling mistake...

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Enjoy your corpses... ? :idea2: :laugh4:

Now as for your question the Thorakitai Agematos Basilikou [Thorakitai among the Royal Squadron] is indeed a rename of a previously already existing (and quite frankly cumbersome) unit. By the time you can afford them you may very well have a Large Gymnasion in place, and a nice Chalkeon. Now those two buildings + the Homeland Governement + the raw stats will add up to a whopping 36 defence points. Only Catraphracts (elite, late ones at that) can surpass that. The attack values aren't exactly low either.

And I'll point it out yet again: Argyraspides! -Ai is about as whole as your back will feel after the T.A.B. have had a go at you for it! :whip:

Enjoy my corpses? Am I being stupid here? I don't get that at all.


And I am sure it is (or was) spelt ai in the edu, at least, and that is theonly place where I haveto be abe to spell the units, so the edu entreys tend to be the ones that I learn to spell. (even though I am certain I have found mistakes in the edu, not that it really matters)

Well the last time we had a discussion on the T.A.B. I managed to misspell the plural of corps as in "elite corps"....

You gotta start posting yourself instead of having that slave of yours making your posts up. :wink:

Excuse me, my sig is there for a reason, you know.:laugh4:

My use. Thureophoroi, in as large numbers I can without it feeling ridicoulus, mostly on the flanks of my phalanx. Lonchophoroi I hardly use, yet, mainly the because of the price, though in my QartHadast game the Lonchophoroi type cavalry they have is the main cavalry unit for me (for one thing is, atleast still in 1.0, relatively cheap unlike the Lonchophoroi who aren't quite as cost-effective). However my use of Lonchophoroi is steadily increasing (I have trained one unit with Makedonia).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Poulp'

@ Folgore and Thaatu

how did you make those deployment sketches ?

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I used Paint. Folgore probably used some more high tech thing.

I read something about Prodromoi being more resistant to missiles. This is wrong. Lonchophoroi have a shield wich, if you don't make them run around, will make them quite effective against arrows. If they're under fire, make them walk and run only for the charge. I like them a lot. I use thureophoroi as flanking troops where they excell... I use Thorakitai either as flank troops or, in armies where I'm going for mobility, I use them as the main infantry line.


Cheers...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mAIOR

I read something about Prodromoi being more resistant to missiles. This is wrong. Lonchophoroi have a shield wich, if you don't make them run around, will make them quite effective against arrows. If they're under fire, make them walk and run only for the charge. I like them a lot. I use thureophoroi as flanking troops where they excell... I use Thorakitai either as flank troops or, in armies where I'm going for mobility, I use them as the main infantry line.


Cheers...

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Prodromoi have 11 armor and no shield. Lonchophoroi have 8 armor and 3 shield. This means prodromoi are more resistant to missile fire, on average.

as Baktria I use thereuphoroi mainly as shock troops and mobile anticavalry, maybe are not the best in this role but in the east there's plenty of archers, cavalry and light infantry but only few heavy units; they are usually the infantry with most kills done. I have much less thorakitai, I deploy them at the flanks of the phalanx in a mainly defensive role. Never used the lonchophoroi.

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Originally Posted by Sakkura

Prodromoi have 11 armor and no shield. Lonchophoroi have 8 armor and 3 shield. This means prodromoi are more resistant to missile fire, on average.

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Weaker against slingers, though.

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Originally Posted by Pharnakes

Weaker against slingers, though.

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Only from certain directions. Against slingers it's a mixed picture, against archers the prodromoi are better. And to be fair, he was talking about archers specifically.

Quote:

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If your going to I'll be a hypocrite and follow suite:

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Three seater & a recliner? Or maybe split-level duplex? :balloon2:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sakkura

Prodromoi have 11 armor and no shield. Lonchophoroi have 8 armor and 3 shield. This means prodromoi are more resistant to missile fire, on average.

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Shield bvalue doubles against arrows I believe. Also, against AP missiles, it isn't reduced.



Cheers...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Poulp'

@ Folgore and Thaatu

how did you make those deployment sketches ?

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Took me about 3 minutes to make in photoshop.

Lonchophoroi have armor/shield stats that are much too low for how they are depicted. they pretty have have full hoplite armor and an aspis. I have bumped them up in my campaigns...

Yeah, I was supried when however it was siad they ahve 8 armour. 3 shield is reasonable, though, as the sheild dosen't protect the horse at all, only the man.

Shield values in EB have always only applied to the man

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mAIOR

Shield bvalue doubles against arrows I believe. Also, against AP missiles, it isn't reduced.

Cheers...

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The shield still does not protect the ass.