Reading The Field

Beyond having somewhat mastered organization and control of your troops, and gaining some skill at correctly matching them against your opponent’s, next is to learn to read the battlefield correctly.

In an old movie called “Kim of India”, a street urchin is trained to be a spy reporting on troop movements. A tray with different quantities and colors of rocks (could have been sizes too) are flashed before him, and he is then expected to remember and report on how many and what kind he saw. In the movie he practices and practices, developing his abilities to instantly annualize enemy strengths and movements.

Being able to do this correctly is an invaluable asset, but has unfortunately always been a weak point in my game. In a single instance this last weekend I misread both an enemy and a team member’s movements at the same time, that caused me to move to quickly to an unsupported situation. This has focused my attention on trying to find ways to do better assessments, and make better judgments in the future.

Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Tomisama

Thoughts?

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When the enemy moves to flank you in force, don't move your army further out to that flank because that tends to isolate your army where the enemy can overwhelm it with a stronger force. It shortens the time before contact with the enemy and simultaneously lengthens the time of arrival of allied support units. It also incurs fatigue for your units and for allied support units which can significantly reduce the combat ability of the units.

To be effective, supporting units have to arrive before your army is routed, and while the morale level chosen does provide for the separation of units and armies in order to allow for angles of attack, it is possible to have too much separation. Judging the maximum safe separation distance is very important and depends upon making good estimates of how long units will fight, how fast supporting units can traverse the distance and how quickly you or your ally is likely to respond to the developing situation. If an ally is slow to respond, you have to stay closer to him than to an ally who is quick to respond.

When under attack the team should concentrate on repelling the main attack rather than some team members staging their own counterattack on some other part of the enemy position. The defenders should be able to bring more units to bear on the main point of attack unless they have stretched out their line to the extent that there is too much separation between the units or armies.

Hello Tomisama,

There are different techniques, some will work for a person, others don't.

I think these are good things to focus on:

Monitor your allies and keep your army nearby your allies.
Monitor your allies and assist, not only when he's doubled by 32 units, but also when he is attacked by two units controlled by two opponents (that could be just a defensive move to protect one of his flanks).
Don't move too much, as you don't want to provoke a response.
Don't move too little, you need more than one spearunit to block 4 JHC.

Throw all of the above overboard when you are ready for it.

On the very simplest levels of this (my level), I take the time to see what colors my team mates have, and of course who they are. I say each name out load, to insure that I am not just skimming the group, and if I can, I will check to see what units they have. I also note who my closest opposition is, and again if I can, count units to be sure that none are in hiding.

Lately I have been able to keep one eye on the enemy back field shifts, and as possible (and as quietly as possible), made compensating balances. Most of the time this works to some advantage, and occasionally provides critical support in place “before” it is needed (the only way to fly :wink: ).

While I am on simple, let me wheel out my old “10 Always For Team Multiplayer” to read again myself, and for anyone else who might find a review of some basic stuff helpful.

The Ten “Always” Basics For Team Multiplayers

"There are exceptions to every rule. Discuss the exceptions in deployment, but other than these temporary agreements, consider these rules as Always being understood.

As much as possible:

..1. Always stick together.
Move to link up, then move together as one coordinated killing machine.

..2. Always search for your enemies weakness.
Be ready to take advantage of their over confidence, latency, or forgetfulness. Given enough time in the battle, everyone is subject to these errors. Be on guard for yourself and your team mates.

..3. Always take the high ground first.
The “number one” objective is to provide this base of operations for the team. If there is a highest hill, you must have it, victory will follow.

..4. Always protect your generals.
Keep them out of the action. The loss of your armys leader lowers your whole army’s morale for the rest of the battle. For lack of a general an army was lost, for lack of an army a battle was lost. Keep him safe.

..5. Always look to double team a single, or triple a double.
The old hammer and anvil. One or two armys fix the enemies attention, while the others out flank and smash them.

..6. Always leave the isolated enemy army until last.
This is pure logic, go after the most of them with the most of your own. The straggling enemy army presents a juicy target but don’t be fooled. The battle is where the majority of the enemy is.

..7. Always remember that you may have to become the rear guard for the group.
Moving to link up always leaves a part of the front empty. The army on the most exposed flank will be at risk of being out flanked. If that should happen, it could mean disaster for the whole team. Be ready to fulfill the rear guard roll should it fall to you. Consider it in your deployment, and stand ready to move to face the flanking enemy as the others move forward.

..8. Always regroup before entering another phase of the battle.
Don’t get carried away with small victories. Whatever kills might be earned in chasing are offset by the fatigue it cost you. If you get a moment to breath, take it and regroup.

..9. Always keep some units ready to help a team mate if needed.
Be ready and looking for the need long before it happens. It will take you time to get there.

..10. Always consider that the battle will be long and difficult.
Keep an eye on your energy bars, and always consider fatigue a major factor in your plans. And never underestimate your enemy, no matter who they are. Consider all who oppose you, heavily armed, and extremely dangerous......

Any corrections or expansions on the above are welcome.

:bow:

Hi Tomisama

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Originally Posted by Tomisama

While I am on simple, let me wheel out my old “10 Always For Team Multiplayer” to read again myself, and for anyone else who might find a review of some basic stuff helpful.

The Ten “Always” Basics For Team Multiplayers

"There are exceptions to every rule. Discuss the exceptions in deployment, but other than these temporary agreements, consider these rules as Always being understood.

As much as possible:

..1. Always stick together.
Move to link up, then move together as one coordinated killing machine.

..2. Always search for your enemies weakness.
Be ready to take advantage of their over confidence, latency, or forgetfulness. Given enough time in the battle, everyone is subject to these errors. Be on guard for yourself and your team mates.

..3. Always take the high ground first.
The “number one” objective is to provide this base of operations for the team. If there is a highest hill, you must have it, victory will follow.

..4. Always protect your generals.
Keep them out of the action. The loss of your armys leader lowers your whole army’s morale for the rest of the battle. For lack of a general an army was lost, for lack of an army a battle was lost. Keep him safe.

..5. Always look to double team a single, or triple a double.
The old hammer and anvil. One or two armys fix the enemies attention, while the others out flank and smash them.

..6. Always leave the isolated enemy army until last.
This is pure logic, go after the most of them with the most of your own. The straggling enemy army presents a juicy target but don’t be fooled. The battle is where the majority of the enemy is.

..7. Always remember that you may have to become the rear guard for the group.
Moving to link up always leaves a part of the front empty. The army on the most exposed flank will be at risk of being out flanked. If that should happen, it could mean disaster for the whole team. Be ready to fulfill the rear guard roll should it fall to you. Consider it in your deployment, and stand ready to move to face the flanking enemy as the others move forward.

..8. Always regroup before entering another phase of the battle.
Don’t get carried away with small victories. Whatever kills might be earned in chasing are offset by the fatigue it cost you. If you get a moment to breath, take it and regroup.

..9. Always keep some units ready to help a team mate if needed.
Be ready and looking for the need long before it happens. It will take you time to get there.

..10. Always consider that the battle will be long and difficult.
Keep an eye on your energy bars, and always consider fatigue a major factor in your plans. And never underestimate your enemy, no matter who they are. Consider all who oppose you, heavily armed, and extremely dangerous......

Any corrections or expansions on the above are welcome.

:bow:

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I thought this reading looked familiar. :book:

I see that it is taken from Appendix (ii) of the Academy Guides for MultiPlayers on the ^Nomad Alliance^ forum. See Here

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Originally Posted by Tomisama

..3. Always take the high ground first.
The “number one” objective is to provide this base of operations for the team. If there is a highest hill, you must have it, victory will follow.

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I basically agree to this but I also feel that the advantage a hill offers can be deceptive. The reason is the backkills you may suffer from a position on a hill. If my teppos shoot uphill at yours the bullets passing through the ranks, missing your teppos, have to come down somewhere. Most probably they'll hit the units positioned on the backslope.
On the other hand, I experienced this last weekend where we attacked a hill, I may be able to position my spears almost directly behind my teppos without risking any backkills because your teppos are shooting downhill at mine and the missed shots would just go into the ground.
It is of course true that archers profit from being on higher ground and that it is always best to charge downhill at the enemy.
Just be careful, there's no equation hill=good position. It's relative.
Yuuki would probably say it's an indication that we've a good balance because it is actually possible to take the hill from the defender as an attacker.

R'as

I would caution about over reliance on those axioms. There are too many exceptions to them.

Surely they should be read as 'not set in concrete' but to be kept in mind when carrying out different parts of the gameplay.

Basic things to consider when deploying, advancing, engaging, retreating etc.

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Originally Posted by TosaInu

There are different techniques, some will work for a person, others don't.

I think these are good things to focus on:

Monitor your allies and keep your army nearby your allies.
Monitor your allies and assist, not only when he's doubled by 32 units, but also when he is attacked by two units controlled by two opponents (that could be just a defensive move to protect one of his flanks).
Don't move too much, as you don't want to provoke a response.
Don't move too little, you need more than one spearunit to block 4 JHC.


Throw all of the above overboard when you are ready for it.

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Again, this is advice not said as...must do.




Players read situations in different ways. A lot depends on the individual player. Some people react quicker than others, some 'see' what is happening better/quicker than others. A lot depends on the individual skills of players otherwise there would not be any reason for the game. There would be no 'winners' or 'losers'

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Originally Posted by Tomisama

While I am on simple, let me wheel out my old “10 Always For Team Multiplayer” to read again myself, and for anyone else who might find a review of some basic stuff helpful.

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The Always list was first written about five (or six) years ago as a beginners guide for new players coming into the Ronin Warlords Clan. It has undergone a few changes over the years, but was never intended to be more than a handful of basic concepts for the uninitiated. I realize that some of the points addressed are antiquated (STW), but I posted anyway to hopefully provoke some folks to hoist up new views on the subjects listed, and maybe even bring some new concepts to the list.

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Originally Posted by Tomisama

Any corrections or expansions on the above are welcome.

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Just wanted to be clear about my purpose :book:



Edit:P.S. One of the Always that fell off the list along time ago, but that I though was worth reviving at least one more time :smile:

Always trust that your team mates have done the best that could be done, according to the battle as they saw it. Each of us comes with different experience, and each has a unique point of view of the battle. Each has different skills and different weaknesses. It is in teamwork that these things get welded together to the advantage of all.

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Originally Posted by Tomisama

Being able to do this correctly is an invaluable asset, but has unfortunately always been a weak point in my game. In a single instance this last weekend I misread both an enemy and a team member’s movements at the same time, that caused me to move to quickly to an unsupported situation. This has focused my attention on trying to find ways to do better assessments, and make better judgments in the future.

Thoughts?

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Its been a very long time since I played any kind of MP. I have played MP with STW many moons ago. That said I have 2 cents to add.

In my time playing MP with various games I have always assumed a defensive position 1st.

"Invincibility lies in the defence, the possibility of victory in the attack" Sun Tzu

Once you have a secured defensive position then the allies and enemy must react to you this should help your assesment abilities multi fold as half the equation is dictated by you (you know what they are reacting to).

While this isnt a complete team strategy, it does ensure your ability not to affect the team negatively initially.

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Originally Posted by Odin

"Invincibility lies in the defence, the possibility of victory in the attack" Sun Tzu

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I too believe in deploying back in a solid defensive stance, at least until I can see the enemy positions. But the option to stay there until attacked will most likely only rarely exist in our 4v4 battles.

Thanks Odin, you should come join us on Sundays for some Samurai Warlords fun :charge:

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Originally Posted by Tomisama

I too believe in deploying back in a solid defensive stance, at least until I can see the enemy positions. But the option to stay there until attacked will most likely only rarely exist in our 4v4 battles.

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I understand it isnt ideal for 4v4 battles. However attaining a defensive position would aleviate your issue instantly. The field would be read from one singualr view, how the others move to you. That should make it much simpler for counter moves and thereby negate the weakness.

This should be able to be negotiated at the 4v4 level. Also its not a permanent situation, its simply a tool to be employed until you can make a successful read. Then move at your leisure.

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Originally Posted by Tomisama

Thanks Odin, you should come join us on Sundays for some Samurai Warlords fun :charge:

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I live in a fairly secluded area. Also by choice I do not have cable so all I have is a diail up at my residence. I dont think you guys play with guys who have dial up only. I have the ability to upgrade but my families chosen lifestyle at this time is to not include cable/high speed access to the web.

While at work I can log on and surf the web with ease but I cant play games here.

Thanks for the offer though. :medievalcheers:

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Originally Posted by Odin

I dont think you guys play with guys who have dial up only.

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This game works fine over 56k dial-up.

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Originally Posted by Puzz3D

This game works fine over 56k dial-up.

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Really? Its been nearly 6 years since I did MP. I have the samurai beta 8 downloaded and am playing SP.

Let me take a look around the forum for specifics on the MP game, I might be up for it. :medievalcheers:

Great :grin:
We are playing the Beta 5 version on line. You will need a separate fresh install of VI 1.02, and the downloads from Yuuki’s signature above.

To get back more directly to the thread topic. What brought about remembering of the Always list was my statement:

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Lately I have been able to keep one eye on the enemy back field shifts, and as possible (and as quietly as possible), made compensating balances. Most of the time this works to some advantage, and occasionally provides critical support in place “before” it is needed (the only way to fly ).

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Reminded me of:

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..9. Always keep some units ready to help a team mate if needed.
Be ready and looking for the need long before it happens. It will take you time to get there.

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And I guess that in all observations of the battlefield beyond unit identification and counting when possible, is the judging of distance, and understanding the relative time to maneuver involved.

One example is the in-range distance required for bows and guns to begin firing. To me it seems difficult on relatively flat plains to judge how close I am to the enemy. I think I’m there, but am not and have to move up a bit, then a bit more, etc., etc..

Sometimes, with a range group in motion, I will monitor my mouse-over of the enemy units, watching for the green arrow to signal when to halt my advance. Not often needed but I do use it.

Counting squares, if you can see them on a particular map, might be useful to determine more exact relationships. Does anyone have any rules-of-thumb that they employ to whatever degree of success, in prejudging time/distance relationship?

Not that I know that anyone does. Just fishing here :smile:

56K should work fine. IIRC it depends a bit on the quality of the line and overall ping between players. Only way to know would be to join us on Sundays :beam:


CBR

Hi Odin

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Originally Posted by Tomisama

You will need a separate fresh install of VI 1.02, and the downloads from Yuuki’s signature above.

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A clean install of MTW/VI with patch v2.01 and downloads from Yuuki's signature.

Yes, come and join us on Sunday evenings 19.00 GMT.

Happy hunting..:2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by CBR

56K should work fine. IIRC it depends a bit on the quality of the line and overall ping between players.

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The typical ping time for 56k dial-up is about 450 ms, and that will work ok for a joiner. Trying to host 3v3 or 4v4 games over 56k dial-up does lag. If your ping is up around 900 ms or higher, that won't work well.

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Originally Posted by Tomisama

Quote:
Lately I have been able to keep one eye on the enemy back field shifts, and as possible (and as quietly as possible), made compensating balances. Most of the time this works to some advantage, and occasionally provides critical support in place “before” it is needed (the only way to fly).

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This is critical to success when defending. Each defender is responsible for countering the enemy units in the army that's opposite him in the battle line. He's "your guy" to cover unless your team agrees to switch to different opponents. If "your guy" moves units to some other part of the battleline, you should cover that move if you can. Since the two sides are essentially equal in combat power, the Oblique Order will often be used by attackers to create a local superiority on one flank. The proper defense against this attack is to refuse the flank (to bend or curve back the flank units of a military force so that they face generally to the flank rather than the front). Allied units should be arriving to help with the defense of the refused flank. Sometimes the defenders decide to stage a counter offensive on the attacker's weak flank instead of defending their own weak flank. Success then becomes a race to see which side can break the other's weak flank first.

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Originally Posted by Tomisama

Quote:
..9. Always keep some units ready to help a team mate if needed.
Be ready and looking for the need long before it happens. It will take you time to get there.

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Don't anticipate enemy moves because that can lead to wasted movement, and you might actually strip yourself of units that you need to hold your position. Definitely react to enemy moves. The gameplay is designed to allow enough time to react to enemy threats within a certain limit of distance. That distance depends upon the specific kind of threat.

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Originally Posted by Tomisama

And I guess that in all observations of the battlefield beyond unit identification and counting when possible, is the judging of distance, and understanding the relative time to maneuver involved.

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Right. And, the enemy may make feints designed to draw out some of your units beyond the distance from which those units can be effectively supported. They may also position their entire army in what they hope appears to you to be an untenable position when, in fact, their position is still defensible.

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Originally Posted by Tomisama

One example is the in-range distance required for bows and guns to begin firing. To me it seems difficult on relatively flat plains to judge how close I am to the enemy. I think I’m there, but am not and have to move up a bit, then a bit more, etc., etc..

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I raise the camera as high as possible and point it downward to help with estimating distance. When moving my teppo line up to engage the enemy ranged units, my first move is close to but intentionally outside of open fire range. That makes it easier to estimate the next move which will be to get the whole unit just inside open fire range.

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Originally Posted by Tomisama

Sometimes, with a range group in motion, I will monitor my mouse-over of the enemy units, watching for the green arrow to signal when to halt my advance. Not often needed but I do use it.

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I use the red/green arrow to measure how far to move forward on the second move. Since I'm not trying to stop right at the edge of the open fire range, I can have a margin of error and still end up within open fire range after the second move. Usually, I don't have to make a third move. You can use the ranges-2 map which has a checkerboard tile pattern to get a better idea of how large enemy units appear at 100 meters (2.5 tiles), and this should help in visually estimating that distance.

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Originally Posted by Tomisama

Counting squares, if you can see them on a particular map, might be useful to determine more exact relationships. Does anyone have any rules-of-thumb that they employ to whatever degree of success, in prejudging time/distance relationship?

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I don't try to count tiles because they are too difficult to see. I estimate visually by looking at the size of the men or the size of the unit. If a unit needs support, I would say ideally that support should arrive in not more than about 30 seconds after the unit needing support is engaged. In some cases a unit that is loosing may survive considerably longer than 30 seconds, but it's still loosing men all the time so the sooner the support arrives the more useful the unit will be subsequently.

NA runs at 2.2 m/s. It can cover 66 meters in 30 seconds.
YS runs at 2.8 m/s. It can cover 84 meters in 30 seconds.
YA runs at 3.4 m/s. It can cover 102 meters in 30 seconds.
NC runs at 5.6 m/s. It can cover 168 meters in 30 seconds.
YC runs at 6.7 m/s. It can cover 201 meters in 30 seconds.

1 tile = 40 meters.

Outstanding explanations Yuuki-san. Thank you :bow:

And I was so glad to hear you talk about “refusal” tactics. I was first introduced to the concept by Tangent, many years ago. He had a difficult time trying to explain the idea, which seemed instinctively incorrect somehow at first.

And I have had some difficulty trying to explain it to others myself, but maybe my example was not good enough. I would say that it is like in martial arts, where you use your enemy’s strength against them. The harder they push on that flank, the more you recede, until you force their weight to that side (as they seek to reinforce their "perceived" winnings there). And then while they are off balance, attack and push their other now weaker other flank, folding it over on top of them, forcing their total collapse.

Anyway, it does somewhat give a picture. But maybe more like a judo match I guess :wink:

Salute!

Pulling back to let my opponent(s) hit thin air is one of my favorites, especially when Im using my weak inf/strong cav armies. If opponent does not have total control of his army, it ends up being disrupted and it becomes easier to counter attack and overpower individual enemy units.


CBR

Ok, I could not find a ranges-2 map, so made my own test map with three map squares showing. Then I remembered that I had done something like this before, and discovered that I had. Yup, as I went through the process again and verified that the width of one unit of three deep Japanese Teppos, is the same as one map square (40 meters). That provides a pretty good on-field reference to judge some distances anyway.

Then a really surprising thing happened. I was done with my measurement check and about to bail out of the test game, and I accidentally witnessed something that I did not think could happen.

In setting this test up I had chosen the players army to have only one unit of Teppos, and gave the opposition one unit of Yari Ashigaru. My thinking was that even if I let the Ashis run loose (no pause), that they would not interfere with what I was doing (taking pictures of the screen).

Once the pics were taken, I selected control/T to let the engagement finish up naturally (I had advanced my men to shoot the spearmen). But the opposite happened! The Ashis under AI control, charged the Teppos head on, and destroyed them!

I tested this several times to be sure, and then remembering Yuuki’s list, and understood what was taking place. The Ashis covering over 100 meters (shooting range I believe) in 30 seconds, only had to endure one to two volleys from the three ranked guns. And the damage incurred (5 to 7 kills), was not enough to force them back. They easily over whelmed the shooters, and sent them packing (even running up hill in one instance).

I would have bet that would never have happened :chucks:

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NA runs at 2.2 m/s. It can cover 66 meters in 30 seconds.
YS runs at 2.8 m/s. It can cover 84 meters in 30 seconds.
YA runs at 3.4 m/s. It can cover 102 meters in 30 seconds.
NC runs at 5.6 m/s. It can cover 168 meters in 30 seconds.
YC runs at 6.7 m/s. It can cover 201 meters in 30 seconds.

1 tile = 40 meters.

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40 meters = width of one three rank teppo unit.

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Originally Posted by Tomisama

I tested this several times to be sure, and then remembering Yuuki’s list, and understood what was taking place. The Ashis covering over 100 meters (shooting range I believe) in 30 seconds, only had to endure one to two volleys from the three ranked guns. And the damage incurred (5 to 7 kills), was not enough to force them back. They easily over whelmed the shooters, and sent them packing.

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OMG! Teh Ashi rush!!1!!! :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by R'as al Ghul

OMG! Teh Ashi rush!!1!!! :laugh4:

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Ya, the Ashi-gah-rush :2thumbsup:


Thanks CBR for the ranges-2 map :smile:

Further study reveled that the Teppos in motion did not stop on their own to fire until they were approximately 50 meters from the enemy. That’s half their range potential. Worse, they were not ready to actually shoot until the walking enemy was 20 to 25 meters closer. Manual control is a must :yes:

(I believe someone had posted about the above part before.)

Also, Ashis “just walking” into (single unit three deep) Teppo fire, will continue through three volleys, charging on their own on the third one. And still overwhelm the guns, with a three to one kill result :ahh:

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Originally Posted by Tomisama

I would have bet that would never have happened :chucks:

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Teppo in two ranks. Hold your fire until the ashi get close. Then....BLAMMM !!

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Originally Posted by Puzz3D

Teppo in two ranks. Hold your fire until the ashi get close. Then....BLAMMM !!

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Again, I would have bet on the Teppos in a dual rank also.

But because in that configuration, even though more guns fire in a single volley, they don’t fire as often enough to repel even walking Ashis.

In a quick test last night before I went out for dinner (no chance to verify). The guns took eleven kills in one shot, but the humble but nimble Yari Ashigaru were still all over them before they could fire again.

Go figure :stupido2:

Disclamer: In both cases (dual and triple ranks), the lack of support troops behind the JTs, that may under normal circumstances intimidate (by proximity) the YA into running after a certain number of kills, were not present. So I would not count on the same thing happening in a real battle.

Yesterday I did a couple of tests with PT on hold formation in two ranks. FAW was on and they managed two salvos which in both tests routed the YA.

If the YA had been running from the start (typical player tactic) the result would have been the same as the second salvo would have been more devastating. The second salvo is just happening at even shorter range.


CBR

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Originally Posted by CBR

Yesterday I did a couple of tests with PT on hold formation in two ranks. FAW was on and they managed two salvos which in both tests routed the YA.

If the YA had been running from the start (typical player tactic) the result would have been the same as the second salvo would have been more devastating. The second salvo is just happening at even shorter range.


CBR

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I was able to duplicate this to a point.

The first several times I tried it, the results were devastating for the YA.

But successive trys, and then with variations of AI settings, yielding mixed results.

The major key in every case was proximity of the two units.

If the guns fire too early, the total of the volleys wont be enough to rout.

And it seems that fighting the same situation over and over adds another variable.

The AI seems to gets smarter or gets a break in numerical results somehow, the more times you fight under the same circumstances. And if you change the setting from Normal to Expert, things also change, or at least seem to, along the same lines :huh:

There is of course some randomness for casualties per salvo and changing difficulty above normal will increase morale for AI units IIRC.


CBR

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Originally Posted by Tomisama

The AI seems to gets smarter or gets a break in numerical results somehow, the more times you fight under the same circumstances. And if you change the setting from Normal to Expert, things also change, or at least seem to, along the same lines :huh:

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Expert setting gives a strong morale boost and a considerable melee bonus to the AI. All tests are skewed under Expert.

I ran the PT vs YA test 3 times in custom battle on normal difficulty. I took the PT as defender and set them in 2 ranks, hold formation with fire at will turned off. The AI had a YA general's unit (which gets +2 morale), and it ran the YA in close formation toward my PT to attack. When the YA was 40 meters away, I switch on fire at will which made the PT unit fire it's full 60 man volley when the YA was approximately 30 meters away. In the 3 tests I got, 10 kills, 11 kills and 9 kills respectively with the single volley. The YA routed in all 3 tests.