Your most overrated/underrated unit

DISCLAIMER:in no way is this a criticism on EB. But obviously, when you have such a wide variety of troops and often many different troops competing for the same role in your army, there are naturally going to be better choices and worse choices for who you want in your army.

In this thread, post your faction and the most overrated troop(s) you can recruit, as well as the most underrated troop(s) you can recruit.

We all know elites who cost an arm and leg in upkeep rock in EB, but what about your favorite troops who can provide close to the same level performance without costing so damn much!

And what about the troops that you COULD recruit but perform way below your expectations and most importantly, $$ value?

I'll start:

Faction: Pontos

MVPs of the underrated

• Keltohellenikoi Hoplitai - cheap as hell galatian soldiers from Ancyra, who not only have the same attack as greek classical hoplites, but have only 4 less defense than the greek classical hoplites. Instead, you get the ability of throwing 2 javelins (which are to be used throwing into pinned cavalry before they charge and destroy them in melee), and the "hardy" attribute. Also, on the defensive, they can stand a enemy cavalry charge quite readily since they always keep their spears out. Absolutely highly recommended, and well suited for guarding your flanks.

• Persian Archer-Spearmen - well, these are already well publicized as being extremely effective and cost efficient, but i cannot stress it enough. The only issue is that they are a little far off from my starting zone.

• Bosphoran Heavy Archers - extremely well armored and shielded, possess a very decent missle attack number and to top it off, come with the "hardy" attribute. All of this for 10xx mnai, and will perform very well in providing missle support for your units while taking very few losses.

The UGLY.
It is a shame that this list is so populated, and even so i think I am forgetting some.

• Galatian Heavy Cavalry - UGH, the definition of overrated. Not only are they extremely expensive, they possess a miserable armor rating and miserable charge lethality/charge value. the West at the time was not famed for cavalry, and these guys definitely show it be being totally outclassed by their eastern counterparts. Instead, take a trip one province over and recruit the far superior kinsmen heavy cavalry, who have very good charge lethality, charge damage, and armor ratings. Not to mention can be recruited with a lower level MIC.

• Galatian Heavy Spearmen - absolutely overrated. Since the sword is the primary, they are crap at receiving cavalry charges. Although the spear attack is quite hefty, it's only 2 more than the classic hoplites/celto-hellenic infantry, both of who are much more cost effective and perform much better.
  Not to mention they are not even 'hardy', so they get tired pathetically fast. Their armor rating is good but their offense and staying power is very bad for so called "elites" or even 'semi-elites'.

• Pontic Thorakitai - they require a level 4 factional MIC, have only 80 men per unit, have bad armor (most of their 20 defense goes to defense skill, not armor. So much for 'Thorakitai'). For offense, they have a good javelin but its range is only 35 . Then when it comes to melee, they are armed with kiddy safe toothpicks with 0.1 lethality. Not to mention they are not even 'hardy' - so much for being mobile. Their recruitment cost isnt so bad but the requisite infrastructure makes these guys leaving you lacking more.

• Honorable Mention- Chalkaspides. In addition to costing a lot, they seem to have a really bad problem NOT routing. Probably because they get exhausted so easily (not having 'hardy'). I keep mentioning 'hardy' because as far as traits go, this one is the most valuable in that it determines how quick your men get tied and how quick they recover.

The Caucasian units are very nice considering the Hai start dirt poor and that they cost only as much as the inferior (looking at you pandas) units around them. Caucasian Archers are a great bang for the buck.

I have to agree on those archer-spearmen - Saba get an Arabian version in their Factional MIC - one of the best (range+attack) archer units in game, plus they're cavalry killers in melee.
Same goes for Arabian light infantry (basically javelin skirmishers armed with spears). Cheap and effective.
I dunno if you can call them underrated, but I also love Drapanai. Fast and absolutely LETHAL (AP+very high lethality) for dirt cheap.

As to the underperformers, I haven't had much luck with any of hellenic spearmen (thoratikai or theurophoroi).


EDIT: If I wasn't such a slow typist, we'd only have 1 of these threads going right now!:juggle2: :laugh4:

A unit that is terribly overrated IMHO are the Germanic horsemen. They are just skirmisher cavalry without the skirmish or circle ability and cost a lot more than comparable horsemen from the neighbouring factions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by konny

A unit that is terribly overrated IMHO are the Germanic horsemen. They are just skirmisher cavalry without the skirmish or circle ability and cost a lot more than comparable horsemen from the neighbouring factions.

---

The only thing that I remember about them is their high cost, really. I didn't find them to be very good during my Sweboz campaign, and just after conquering my initial realm I disbanded them along most of my armies, and never build more. All infantry is quite slow and somewhat boring, but they just don't seem worth the money invested in them... I'd rather just hire Sarmatians/Skythians etc from the east, or something.

Armenian FMs rock!
at the start of the campaign i always get a few in the army to execute infamous, lethal hammer and anvil. no other cavalry required.
did i mentioned they're also free:laugh4:

Galatian Heavy Spearmen are awesome. I've got a massive Pontic kingdom right now (Ptolemy, Armenia, Saba are gone, Selucia is on the ropes) and these guys have been in the thick of it. They are best on the flanks so their low numbers don't cause problems. They hack through anything and will fight despite the odds. I've only had 2 units of these guys rout and that was the same battle when my entire army was destroyed, it was only them left surrounded and still killing. I've had a unit knocked down from 120 to 6 and still holding on Shaken.

Galatian Heavy Cavalry: Thracian's to the West, Kinsmen to the East, Greeks to the South, all are better than these but until you get them these guys rock. Even afterwards they can handle themselves. They are more of a charge and then hang in melee for a while cavalry. There are better options but I still find a place for them in some of my armies

Pontic Elite Infantry: These guys are nothing special and are pretty much the Greek spearmen but with swords instead. Same attack, defence, cost. The name Elite is miss leading, they are just basic troops more geared towards fighting infantry. The infrastructure needed and the small recruitment zone makes them a rare sight in my armies these days, I just use them because they look cool and I have some hardened units from earlier wars. But when it comes down to it the Greek so called lighter version has a wider recruitment and does the job the same just as well.

Bronze Shields: Yet to have a unit of these rout. A rock hard phalanx unit that can fight with swords if needed. Considering Pontus doesn't have access to higher end phalanx troops these guys are gold. With experience they slaughter all. One unit with 6 experience held against a unit of Ptolemy elite Phalanx and 3 units of Egyptian pike men all at the same time. Lost 90 men but they did it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gurakshun

Faction: Pontos

---

I just laid my Pontic game to rest, so this is a most interesting post. :)

Quote:

---

MVPs of the underrated: Keltohellenikoi Hoplitai, Persian Archer-Spearmen, Bosphoran Heavy Archers

---

A "hell yes" for the Keltohellenikoi Hoplitai, they're cheap and hardass. Shame about the limited recruitment.

Both archer units are nice for archers, but I'm an AP slinger guy at heart. I don't mind my slingers taking some missile casualties -- they're cheap, they're recruitable, it builds their experience which helps them more than most units.

I'll add a plug for that most unassuming of units, unsung backbone of the Pontic military, the Pantadapoi Phalangitai. They're not as good as most of the pike phalanxes you face, but they're good enough to pin them while somebody else flanks. They're cheap and they have an excellent recruiting zone. Apart from specialist jobs like grinding down mainstreet in a siege (get merc Pezhetairoi or Chalkaspides), they do pretty much everything an elite phalanx does for half the money. They're a unit that wins wars, not just battles.

Another bargain: Horse Archers. Cheap, dangerous to infantry spam, good feinters to pull the enemy out of shape, good rout chasers, and they suffer very low casualties if used conservatively so it doesn't matter if they're a long way from their MIC. I use the level 1 regional MIC at Kotais and some mercs. I wouldn't bother with the lance version, they may be better in a charge but HAs have no business charging in a Pontic army; plus they're harder to come by and they mess with logistics (can't merge the two sorts).

Quote:

---

UGLY: Galatian Heavy Cavalry - UGH, the definition of overrated.

---

Yep. They really suck. They're abysmal. Probably historical, but that doesn't mean a discerning King of Pont should hire them. And the hugely expensive MIC you need to build them almost nowhere can't recruit any other unit. Head east, get Kinsmen, and have your FMs work for a living.

Quote:

---

Galatian Heavy Spearmen, Pontic Thorakitai

---

Not actually bad units, just overpriced and under-recruitable for what they do. A mix of Hellenic Spearmen, Karian Warbands, Classical Hoplites and whatnot does the same job cheaper and with way better MIC/merc recruiting.

Quote:

---

Honorable Mention - Chalkaspides. In addition to costing a lot, they seem to have a really bad problem NOT routing. Probably because they get exhausted so easily (not having 'hardy'). I keep mentioning 'hardy' because as far as traits go, this one is the most valuable in that it determines how quick your men get tied and how quick they recover.

---

Now I haven't had that problem at all, not even a little bit. Maybe my Chalky Spiders are all with good generals who keep their morale up. Maybe it's because of my fencing style, I try to pull the enemy apart and destroy them in detail in a series of small engagements which give the troops time to rest.

Since the other thread is only about the good units, I'll chime in on units I've found not worth recruiting.

Toxotai - no explanation needed. ~:)

Armenian Skirmisher Cavalry, Armenian Horse Archers - Hayasdan can trivially acquire Scythian HA in level 1 regional MICs (Kotais, etc.), so there's really no point to these units. The Skirmishers are far weaker than the HA, and the Armenian HA are identical to the Scythians with a substantially greater upkeep.

Scythian Axemen - similar stats to all the other axemen in the east, but a smaller unit size.

Pontikoi thorakitai and galatian heavy cav are among the most redundant units (IMHO) I've experienced so far...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jhhowell

Toxotai - no explanation needed. ~:)

---

Still better than .80 :laugh4:

Great timing on the post. Just finished my KH campaign and now playing as Hai.

Underrated unit = Scithian horse archers. Outstanding cheap unit for both charge and chase or rain of arrows from one heck of a distance. Also one of the best units to harass and draw out units from formation.

I have Persian spear man / archers man my forts (cheap cost being primary reason), because i use slinger and above mentioned Scithian horse archers as my primary range units. I have yet to try them in a main battle line. One unit got almost wiped out after receiving a charge from Seleucid FM cav. unit. Do they automatically switch to spears once enemy is engaging them in hand to hand?

Roman.

Thrakian pelatastai and Thrakian prodromoi are the best. Also sycthed chariots.

Over rated?

All galatains, jav cav, horse archers with knives, elephants.

lol, S drgaon is in direct opposite of the OP.:laugh4:

Just have to defend the units being down played that I've used for 100 years. :P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jhhowell

Toxotai - no explanation needed. ~:)

---

What's wrong with Toxotai? OK, they are not as good as their Asian counterparts but basicly do what they should for a reasonable price.

Most Underrated: The old pre 1.0 Pontic bodyguards. Those guys were great, but no one liked them. I wish I had them still instead of the Cataphract-like monsters Pontos has now.

I absolutely hate the "Doryphoroi Pontikoi - Pontic Light Spearmen" - very expensive crap mercenaries... >.<

Underrated? Just about every archer from the East. Particularly devastating are the archers from Khotan, and the Arabian tribal levies (who can outshoot even eastern slingers!) Pantodapoi phalangitai (often more useful than klerouchoi because of the AP axe), peltastai, Caucasian spearmen. Oh and those axemen. Akontistai: 120 javelins at the same time hits hard.

Overrated: the Anatolikoi Phyletes and the Skythian equivalent; balearic slingers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Callicles

Most Underrated: The old pre 1.0 Pontic bodyguards. Those guys were great, but no one liked them. I wish I had them still instead of the Cataphract-like monsters Pontos has now.

---

They kinda looked like they were wearing pjamas though :beam:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pharnakes

the best. Also sycthed chariots.

---

Sir, you have mastered an art which eludes me. I salute you.

Quote:

---

Over rated? jav cav,

---

God yes.

Quote:

---

horse archers with knives,

---

Deadly attrition machines. Don't expect them to end the battle, just to tip it (for less than 5% casulaties, which wins you the prolonged war far from home).

Quote:

---

elephants.

---

Strictly for lightning city assaults on turns 1-4.

the good: the eastern archers, every one has its use (the archers-spearmen are a very good all-round, the standard persian archers are very cheap and with a great range, the subeshi have an even better range and a 1.0 leathality shortsword, and last but not least the more expensive heavy persian archers); peltastai, lots of javelins, good armor, great flexibility; classical hoplites, almost overpowered IMHO; campanian cavalry, expensive but much better then most skirmisher cavalry

the bad: velites, good armor, good morale, good ranged attack but a crappy dagger that pales against the spear of the camillan leves; thorakitai, too expensive considering the limited upgrade from thereuphoroi; pontikoi thorakitai, almost useless atm, too close to the widely available thereuphoroi

In my Getai campaign:

MVPs:

Drapanai - These guys'll plow armored units over when given some heavier support (i.e. these guys are the best damned flankers). They'll take on most light and medium infantries, and you can pay them in pork. Their problems are missiles and being left to hold off anything alone, but they're remarkably useful.

Komatai Epilektoi: These guys are beasts, and they'll also accept pork as payment. Their stats are godly for the price (I've heard it's a mistake, so if it is I'll make damned good use of it before 1.1), and that's pretty much it for them. They may be technically skirmishers, but they'll do anything you'd normally do with heavy swordsmen.

Thraikioi Romphaiaphoroi - You all know why these are on here. Worth every penny of their affordable price. They'll plow through most anything with minimal losses, and they look really cool.

Bosphoroi Toxotai and Scythian Foot Archers - Ditto with the OP. Cheap and good, just how I like it. Oh, and hardy.

Iosatae - We all know.

Hoplitai - Very good infantry for a moderate price. I send these guys with the drapanai to do flankings.

Thraikioi Doryphoroi - These guys are amazing. Cheap, reliable, and good. You get 240 of them for a fair price, and they'll perform any medium infantry task you should like to give them. They'll fill holes in the line, protect your flanks, provide spear protection for missiles, garrison cities, etc. A good all-round unit.

Costobocii Axemen - Their stats aren't that impressive, and neither is their price, but they never cease to make me proud. I can use these guys for anything; they'll take on cavalry, duke it out with infantry, flank, chop any stray unit that may have tried to flank you, storm walls, storm gates, etc. Mine are all silver-chevron now because I love them so much, even with seemingly superior options.

LVPs:

Dacian Heavy Phalanx: Less bang for the buck than the light phalanx. You get I think one point extra in both defense and attack for a handsome price. There may be hidden stats in there to justify it, but I've ditched both phalanxes by now anyway.

Thraikioi Peltastai - Now pretty much useless with komatai epilektoi on the cheap.

Komatai - (See: Thraikioi Peltastai)

And that's it.

Has anyone used the Scythian Axemen to any extent? I have them readily available, but I've avoided them because of their stats and I wish to know if they're hiding something or if they really are just light infantry with axes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Morte66

Now I haven't had that problem at all, not even a little bit. Maybe my Chalky Spiders are all with good generals who keep their morale up. Maybe it's because of my fencing style, I try to pull the enemy apart and destroy them in detail in a series of small engagements which give the troops time to rest.

---

Yeah, they are great in Field Battles, but when it comes to sieges (especially where your guys must run around for like 5 minutes to get to the town square because you attacked the city at an inconvenient place), they cause me a lot of troubles when it comes to subduing the square defenders. Sieges are timed and require your units to perform really well to capture the square. Having all exhausted units because your so-called elites have the physical fitness level of a bucket of lard does not make this easy.

On this, I would rather take Kleruchoi Phalangitai over the Chalky Spiders - the Kleruchois cost less, have only a little less defense (which is made up by the type 3 gov't exp bonus that you need to recruit them with), and most importantly: have the 'hardy' attribute.

even the weakest of the levy phalangites can perform well in a field battle, all they have to do is stand still more or less and wait for the hammer attack! the real test of whether your phalangites are good or not is how well they perform sweeping the streets and playing the anvil to your hammer in siege battles.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sdragon

Galatian Heavy Spearmen are awesome. I've got a massive Pontic kingdom right now (Ptolemy, Armenia, Saba are gone, Selucia is on the ropes) and these guys have been in the thick of it. They are best on the flanks so their low numbers don't cause problems. They hack through anything and will fight despite the odds. I've only had 2 units of these guys rout and that was the same battle when my entire army was destroyed, it was only them left surrounded and still killing. I've had a unit knocked down from 120 to 6 and still holding on Shaken.

Galatian Heavy Cavalry: Thracian's to the West, Kinsmen to the East, Greeks to the South, all are better than these but until you get them these guys rock. Even afterwards they can handle themselves. They are more of a charge and then hang in melee for a while cavalry. There are better options but I still find a place for them in some of my armies

Pontic Elite Infantry: These guys are nothing special and are pretty much the Greek spearmen but with swords instead. Same attack, defence, cost. The name Elite is miss leading, they are just basic troops more geared towards fighting infantry. The infrastructure needed and the small recruitment zone makes them a rare sight in my armies these days, I just use them because they look cool and I have some hardened units from earlier wars. But when it comes down to it the Greek so called lighter version has a wider recruitment and does the job the same just as well.

Bronze Shields: Yet to have a unit of these rout. A rock hard phalanx unit that can fight with swords if needed. Considering Pontus doesn't have access to higher end phalanx troops these guys are gold. With experience they slaughter all. One unit with 6 experience held against a unit of Ptolemy elite Phalanx and 3 units of Egyptian pike men all at the same time. Lost 90 men but they did it.

---

Boy, I am surprised to find anyone with anything good to say about those galatian heavy cavalry! Responses to your comments -

Galatian Heavy Spearman - your measure of their performance seems to be based on how good of a general you are, not their true effectiveness. Just because they are well armored doesn't mean they are worth their 2012 recruitment cost and 503 mnai upkeep. Compare that to celto-hellenic infantry, which will come with 80 men, 1248 recruitment cost, and 312 upkeep. The celto-hellenes come with javelins, 'hardy', and a spear attack only 2 less than the galatians! not to mention 20 extra men!. The fact that they didnt rout those times seems to be more your generalship/FM's morale ability, because these galatians have only 13 morale. Nothing awe-inspiring, which leads me to believe your tales of their bravery is more related to something else in your game rather than their real ability.

Galatian Heavy Cavalry - do you REALLY think these guys are worth their 3476 recruitment/ 869 upkeep? When you get inferior armor and inferior charges? Compare that to Kinsmen heavy cav, only 1 province over, which only cost 13 mnai more in upkeep (x4 for recruitment), who have a whopping 0.07 more charge lethality, ELEVEN whole more charge, and more armor?

Remember, these units do still have some value but way less value than their cost would indicate.

Pontic Elite Infantry - WHY? why would they be more suited to fight infantry? thureophoroi come with 80 men and 0.125 lethality, and compare that to pontic 'elite' infantry who come with the same amount of men but with crap 0.1 shortsword lethality. They do look cool, but they are sadly worthless. And hardened (exp'd units) are always worth a lot, even the lamest of levies.

Pontic Elite Phalanx - read what I said above to Morte66 and compare them to Kleruchoi Phalangitai (who also get a +1 exp boost from the type 3 gov't, so dont forget).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Morte66

Sir, you have mastered an art which eludes me. I salute you.

---

Use the scythed chariots against enemy heavy cav,enemy FM's, and loose formation enemy infantry (usually the AI loose formations its skirmishers and archers). Against the heavy/FM cavs, they will probably rout, but not before causing major casualties AND tying up the enemy general for a good bit. Remember what happens when cav tries to chase routing scyhted chariots too? And once the battle over, the scythed chariots have a strange tendency to recover a very good amount of their losses.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dyabedes of Aphrodisias

Thraikioi Peltastai - Now pretty much useless with komatai epilektoi on the cheap.

---

The Thracian peltasts still have the bugged insanely high lethalities (0.285!!!!) and come 80 men per unit with AP swords, and not to mention the javelins. I bet the thracian peltasts would smash in the komatai epilektoi any day of the week until EB 1.1 :smash:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pharnakes

All galatains, jav cav, horse archers with knives, elephants.

---

Why DO you hate galatians so much? If you don't mind me asking...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gurakshun

The Thracian peltasts still have the bugged insanely high lethalities (0.285!!!!) and come 80 men per unit with AP swords, and not to mention the javelins. I bet the thracian peltasts would smash in the komatai epilektoi any day of the week until EB 1.1 :smash:

---

Wait...are you serious? God...damnit. I need to make an investment...

Underrated

Indian longbowmen and the guys with the big pot leaf on their helmets (Guild warriors)

In my Pahlava campaign my cats just sit back and watch in awe.

Once all the arrows are gone, the bowmen charge and the potheads flank.
None can withstand them.

Overrated

No, I love them all.

Ok...Elephants, but I still love them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Callicles

Most Underrated: The old pre 1.0 Pontic bodyguards. Those guys were great, but no one liked them. I wish I had them still instead of the Cataphract-like monsters Pontos has now.

---

I have to agree on this, the new bodyguards just aren't the same. Used to have fun using these guys as skirmishers and then charging the flanks/backs when the enemy got tied down in battle. Being a little bit different to the rest doesn't hurt!

Most overrated:

Elephants, no matter how big or how much armour they go down like clay targets. I once defended Pella against Epeiros (first turn attack) who had the big fella and his full army with elephants attacking. I had a unit of the very basic hellenic skirmishers (can't remember the name) and nothing else in the town. One volley of javelins, the elephants panicked, routed, wiped out Pyrrhos (sp) and trampled a few other units on the way home. Battle over.
I tried the new armoured elephants in my Baktrian campaign (very, very nice looking btw)... 5700 upkeep per turn, one unit routed them in the first battle with less then 25% casualties :no:
I have seen (no joking) units of archers/slingers trying to shoot elephants while still in hand to hand combat with infantry, and detroying the elephants in the process.
Everything is stacked against them, no point whatsoever in using them except as instant battering rams against wooden walls, and even then they cost far too much to be cost effective.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Perturabo

Most overrated:

Elephants, no matter how big or how much armour they go down like clay targets. I once defended Pella against Epeiros (first turn attack) who had the big fella and his full army with elephants attacking. I had a unit of the very basic hellenic skirmishers (can't remember the name) and nothing else in the town. One volley of javelins, the elephants panicked, routed, wiped out Pyrrhos (sp) and trampled a few other units on the way home. Battle over.
I tried the new armoured elephants in my Baktrian campaign (very, very nice looking btw)... 5700 upkeep per turn, one unit routed them in the first battle with less then 25% casualties :no:
I have seen (no joking) units of archers/slingers trying to shoot elephants while still in hand to hand combat with infantry, and detroying the elephants in the process.
Everything is stacked against them, no point whatsoever in using them except as instant battering rams against wooden walls, and even then they cost far too much to be cost effective.

---

I agree wholeheartedly. About as much use as tits on a kipper!

Reading recent comments I had to add this.

Most underrated:
Elephants

Its true that this unit is fragile. Used by AI is almost no threat(unless You forgot Your missile units ).
You have to be carful how You use it and it has limited use.
For example I would never bring Elephants against celts.

But it is also only unit that routs enemy army in like 20 seconds.
It provides one sided victories that lets You to plow through enemy armies with minimal casualties.

I just miss them so much in my Haysadan campagne.
If I could get one unit of this beasts I would just devastate Ptolemies numerous armies.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by konny

What's wrong with Toxotai? OK, they are not as good as their Asian counterparts but basicly do what they should for a reasonable price.

---

They're basically slingers without the AP. Real archers come in larger units with much higher attack values. I find it puzzling that their zone of recruitment extends east of the Sinope-Tarsus line, and even in the west I'd prefer sphendonetai...

Another underrated unit: Georgian Medium Infantry. Not as good as Srakir Martikner, but they appear as mercenaries who can later be retrained in northern Hayasdan cities. I found that very helpful to sidestep the question of how to build up my armies without stunting population growth.

Possibly overrated: the top-end Hayasdan noble units (infantry and cataphracts). The infantry doesn't seem enough better than the Srakir Martikner to justify the effort, and the upkeep cost has kept me away from the cataphracts so far. Especially since the cataphract HA and Kinsmen are both such outstanding units.

Hold on a minute... you mean you can retrain those factional-unit mercs in MICs? O.O

Overrated: Ridanz. The Sweboz cavalry are really poor, compared to the similarly equipped Leuce Epos. Only 2 javelins as opposed to the Leuce Epos' 6, and with practically identical stats, it means they die fast for not as much value-addedness.

Belgae Milnaht. They simply don't cut it. They die faster than similar-level infantry from mainland gaul or even similarly half-naked Germans, and their unit size of 160, in a region swarming with 240 and comparable 200-man battalions, simply doesn't cut the cake except that they fill up a small recruitment gap, and even then not by much.

Underrated: Iaosatae, for sure. 'nuff said.

Appea Gaedotos: Cheap, with very great holding power, decent armour, reasonable upkeep, and instantly available once you conquer the Rhaetic provinces. Compared to the agony of creation you have to go through to get Mori Gaesum in just one province, they are much more worth the price.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gurakshun

{of Chalkaspides}Yeah, they are great in Field Battles, but when it comes to sieges (especially where your guys must run around for like 5 minutes to get to the town square because you attacked the city at an inconvenient place), they cause me a lot of troubles when it comes to subduing the square defenders. Sieges are timed and require your units to perform really well to capture the square. Having all exhausted units because your so-called elites have the physical fitness level of a bucket of lard does not make this easy.

---

Ah, I play unlimited time sieges. And I make a specific point of resting my units during protracted battles.

BTW, if you do this, I recommend binding keys for single and triple speed in the options. It makes standing around less painful.

Quote:

---

On this, I would rather take Kleruchoi Phalangitai over the Chalky Spiders - the Kleruchois cost less, have only a little less defense (which is made up by the type 3 gov't exp bonus that you need to recruit them with), and most importantly: have the 'hardy' attribute.

---

I wouldn't especially mind which I'm using. They're both good enough to pin anything, and neither will take much missile damage. It's more about where the nearest MIC is -- I built spiders in Armaseia and Klereuchoi in Seleukeia/Alexandreia. [I wish I'd gone for Antiocheia or Sidon instead of Seleukeia to get them sooner, but such is hindsight.]

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pezhetairoi

Hold on a minute... you mean you can retrain those factional-unit mercs in MICs? O.O

---

Depends how the mercs are set up, but often yes. If they have "Mercenary" or ancient language equivalents (Misthophoroi, Mizdagan(?), etc.) in the name or just have a different name than what they obviously are (Curepos/Leuce Epos) you can never retrain. Otherwise, you're good to go. Ones I've seen so far that could be retrainable for the right factions are the Georgian Inf., Mardian Archers, Shipri Tukul, Iaosatae, Cretan Archers, and assuming nothing has changed in Italy from 0.8, the two Samnite infantries. I'm sure there are plenty more elsewhere on the map.

Goodness, i never knew that. That's cool stuff to know.

By the way, does anyone ever use those Baltic archer units? lankininkas and medininkas? Curious to see if any one has ever used them and their impressions of them...

I don't think anyone really bothers with the baltics, though I have heard horror stories of them chewing theough full stack post marians...


My new favourite unit: Machimoi hippeis, those AP axes are just the thing to deal with seleukid heavies, cavalry and infantry.

ok, my most under-rated unit would have to be the Indo-Iranian LC- they are very fast and not very weak, for LC. there is at least 1 unit in all of my armies, kind of as a shock unit.
as for over-rated.... i dont know- yet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gurakshun

By the way, does anyone ever use those Baltic archer units? lankininkas and medininkas? Curious to see if any one has ever used them and their impressions of them...

---

I had hired some of them as mercs in my last Sweboz campaign. In fact I had a small Baltic army of mercs that refused to cross the Rhine or the Alps (roleplaying, I considered them to be allies). They had a fair conduct in the few fightings I had with them against random rebells and one smaller Roman army; but nothing special after all, avarage Barbarian units - save for their very low upkeep.

I busted a gut to get the Gallic heavy spears as Pontos and I'm going to keep using them! Probably over-rated though.

As the Getai I couldn't wait to get those Agrianian archers, and boy was I dissapointed. As archers they made great medium inf, except not. They did have the very hardy stat, so they could run away all day.

I always underrated the classic hoplite: its just so retro. However a session as the KH taught me this unit could be the backbone of any empire. Cheap, die-hard, moderately versatile, I've been sold on the spearmen in mini-skirts.

The one unit that really does live up to the hype is the naked boys. Their faults are well known: a weakness to javelins and really poor dress sense. Aside from that, they are pure gold.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cyclops

I always underrated the classic hoplite: its just so retro. However a session as the KH taught me this unit could be the backbone of any empire. Cheap, die-hard, moderately versatile, I've been sold on the spearmen in mini-skirts.

The one unit that really does live up to the hype is the naked boys. Their faults are well known: a weakness to javelins and really poor dress sense. Aside from that, they are pure gold.

---

i also like the hopolites and naked mercs, athough the naked guys are almost 8000 to hire.

for overated i would say spartan hopolites. in the tests ive done they can be beaten by alot of other elite units.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Perturabo

I have to agree on this, the new bodyguards just aren't the same. Used to have fun using these guys as skirmishers and then charging the flanks/backs when the enemy got tied down in battle. Being a little bit different to the rest doesn't hurt!

---

Yep. With the new bodyguards, I don't think Pontos deserves the "nigh impossible" qualification in the faction selection screen. I remember reading that the EB Team has recognized this though, and has planned some more changes to Pontos for 1.1.

I ignored zradha shivatir in my first campaign as the Pahlav, focusing instead on building a powerful charging force around grivpanvar and sahigan pahr. This was a mistake.

Zradha shivatir are tactically flexible, heavily armoured and have an extremely good kill rate. As a result of these qualities, they rapidly become very experienced units that can charge every bit as hard as the grivpanvar while out-shooting their unarmoured brethren 3-to-2.

Their high kill rate also means that, as expensive as they are, they actually make for an economic core unit for Pahlav cavalry armies. A half stack of them is enough - there are very few armies that can withstand being hit by 40,000 arrows and then charged by 1,000 elite heavy cavalry.

Unless everyone else has these guys at or near the top of their "most feared" list, then they're definitely underrated.

On the other hand, Gaesatae are overrated pansies. I have a half stack of zradha shivatir who are willing to prove it.

Zradha Shivatir are at the top of my "most feared" list. When they gallop over the horizon, I usually decide to travel in the same direction as them. And call for reinforcements, many reinforcements.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mrtwisties

Unless everyone else has these guys at or near the top of their "most feared" list, then they're definitely underrated.

---

Those are the Parthian version of the cataphract horse archer? I don't think anyone would class those as "underrated" - they're pretty clearly an awesome unit, arguably the best in the game. I'd build more of them as Hayasdan if I could afford them. One per army, supported by ~3 basic HA works fine though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CirdanDharix

Zradha Shivatir are at the top of my "most feared" list. When they gallop over the horizon, I usually decide to travel in the same direction as them. And call for reinforcements, many reinforcements.

---

How do you kill these bastards short of getting your own cataphract HAs? Would a line of phalanxes with a whole row of siege weapons behind them (the arrow-ballista type) put the hurt on them any?

One way. The other way is throw cheap AP infantry at 'em. Babylonian Heavy Infantry are sure killers (nice armour rating, not too expensive, AP side-arm, and as with all such units they use their side-arm more often than their spear). Hyrkanian infantry. Pantodapoi Phalangitai + Klerouchoi Phalangitai. (Pantodapoi P. on their own do not have enough staying power, you should use the Klerouchoi as fodder because they will hold much longer; whilst the Pantodapoi with their AP axes hack down the horsie-men.)

As always: avoid them in the open; combat them in the streets.

If you must insist on fighting them on the open then your best HA bet would be the Pahlava Shivatir (the light horse archers, with some serious bite) + slingers as always. Kinsmen cavalry are quite lethal as well, and actually fast enough to catch & kill such units. Median Medium cavalry is another sure go, though they might suffer from lack of armour. Also you would want to play on the defensive: a solid line of cheap phalanx troops as a wall for your archers & slingers to shoot from behind. Make sure to have the high ground (reduces friendly fire).

on my parthanage one i kinda gave up cause it seemed that arrows wouldn't do anything to the selicuid phalaxes. and id end up fighting infantry with calvary. was this a dumb idea?

while we're on the topic a question...

why does it seem infatry always beat calvary in melee? even without stirups u'd think the guy on the horse could easily take on one or two unmounted soldiers. did they have small horses or somthing?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by quackingduck

on my parthanage one i kinda gave up cause it seemed that arrows wouldn't do anything to the selicuid phalaxes. and id end up fighting infantry with calvary. was this a dumb idea?

---

While you certainly can take on phalanxes with melee units (you'd want some sort of sacrificial infantry on the pike side of the phalanx while the cavalry hits them), carefully employed horse archers can easily demolish a phalanx. Do not fire at a phalanx from the front with any unit short of siege artillery. What makes horse archers so awesome is their mobility. A pure infantry army (as the AI so often uses) cannot prevent horse archers from circling around the flanks. A human player might mitigate this by corner-camping, but the AI won't. Once you've got a shot at the rear or right flank (no shield there), fire away. With large numbers of horse archers you can guarantee that some of them always have that flank/rear shot, no matter what the enemy does. It takes a bit of micromanagement, but it's absolutely devastating. Kill ratios on the order of 100:1 are routine - your main concern is enemy missile units, phalanxes are just target practice.

Quote:

---

why does it seem infatry always beat calvary in melee? even without stirups u'd think the guy on the horse could easily take on one or two unmounted soldiers. did they have small horses or somthing?

---

Horses were smaller then, as I understand it. That's why chariots were so popular and powerful in ancient (1000+ BCE) warfare - horses weren't bred up to the size needed to support a warrior and his gear until sometime in the first millennium.

As to your game question, much depends on the units in question. Extended melee is suboptimal for cavalry since they get so much benefit from charging. Many infantry get the spear bonus against cavalry, while the latter have no special bonus after the charge wears off. And of course cavalry are always less numerous. There could very well be a unit density effect at play as well. Individuals from a cavalry unit often end up within the enemy infantry formation after the charge, so a fair number of infantry attacks will be going against the rear of the cavalryman where he only has his armor, not his defense skill or shield (if any). Still, really tough cav like cataphracts will do just fine in melee, they'll just do even better if they pull back and charge again.

This question of how to defeat HAs reminds me of something I was thinking about the other day. In real life, why did they never invent phalangite archers? Kleruchoi phalangitai with composite bows would be impossible for a HA army to defeat.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mrtwisties

This question of how to defeat HAs reminds me of something I was thinking about the other day. In real life, why did they never invent phalangite archers? Kleruchoi phalangitai with composite bows would be impossible for a HA army to defeat.

---

Heard about Los Tercios de Espa&#241;a? Its pretty much the same or better.

http://www.elpais.com/recorte/200608...pepucul_13.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mrtwisties

This question of how to defeat HAs reminds me of something I was thinking about the other day. In real life, why did they never invent phalangite archers? Kleruchoi phalangitai with composite bows would be impossible for a HA army to defeat.

---

Bit hard to carry a pike and a footbow and a shield and arrows. IIRC there was a book (from about 1625 a quick google tells me) called the "double-armed man" which was a plea to combine the english longbow tradition with the dominant spanish/swiss inspired pike revival, but I don't think anyone took it seriously.

Best bet is "combined arms" forces, with a spear element to repel shock from elite/heavy HA's, a missile element to shoot the HA's ar range, and a light cav element for pursuit.

As pointed out, the tercios combined pike with ranged fire effectively. I think the Achaemenids had 2 man shield/bow teams as a standard infantry. I think the best of the Byzantines had a fine assortment of archer, HA, spear and light cav.

Eventually the ring bayonet made every musket a mini-pike too. From that point, HA forces were toast.

The formations of a phalanx unit is incompatible with archery. The phalanx would need to be densely packed, the archers need space to shoot. Not to mention that a feigned charge would leave the guys in a rut:

* Holster or drop bow
* Pick up shield and pike
* Run to get into phalanx formation
* Get all spears pointing right
* oh crap they wheeled around, let's get back to shooting!
* loosen up
* drop pike and shield
* hey, there they turned and come again!
* Pick up shield and pike
* SPLAT

The Romans used massed archers fairly well against the Parthians. The only thing phalangite archers would by you is flexibility which is pretty much the antithesis of the phalangite. You need something like archer Hypastai or something like that.

Under Alexander, I think they were trained in a variety of fighting methods and the Persians had archer/spearmen type so I don't that something alogn those lines supporting the phalanx would be out of the realm of possibility.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios

One way. The other way is throw cheap AP infantry at 'em. Babylonian Heavy Infantry are sure killers (nice armour rating, not too expensive, AP side-arm, and as with all such units they use their side-arm more often than their spear). Hyrkanian infantry. Pantodapoi Phalangitai + Klerouchoi Phalangitai. (Pantodapoi P. on their own do not have enough staying power, you should use the Klerouchoi as fodder because they will hold much longer; whilst the Pantodapoi with their AP axes hack down the horsie-men.)

As always: avoid them in the open; combat them in the streets.

If you must insist on fighting them on the open then your best HA bet would be the Pahlava Shivatir (the light horse archers, with some serious bite) + slingers as always. Kinsmen cavalry are quite lethal as well, and actually fast enough to catch & kill such units. Median Medium cavalry is another sure go, though they might suffer from lack of armour. Also you would want to play on the defensive: a solid line of cheap phalanx troops as a wall for your archers & slingers to shoot from behind. Make sure to have the high ground (reduces friendly fire).

---

Yeah, that's about all you can do if you don' t have your own. I'd advise strongly against using artillery against them: when it hits them it kills them, but generally it misses. You'll probably get more kills from a quality foot archer unit, such as Syrians or Cretans (Bosphorans probably also, I just haven't tried them). And of course, uber-slingers. Also, in an archer fight, the high ground isn't so much good to avoid friendly fire, as to give your archers a huge advantage against the enemy archers.

But in any case, defeating cataphract archers is going to cost you a fair number of troops. That's why I fear them: no unit is invincible, but most can be defeated fairly easily if you have the right counter whereas the armoured HA will make you bleed no matter what you do.

Elephants, armoured elphants if you are rich, then just lure the AI into charging range. (no very hard task, AI being what it is)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eduorius

Heard about Los Tercios de España? Its pretty much the same or better.

http://www.elpais.com/recorte/200608...pepucul_13.jpg

---

Outstanding picture, looks like quite risky reenactement or is it from a movie?

I think Cretian archers or their Syrian and Bosporian variant would make good Mangas when using phalanxes as Tercios. In an Epeirote campaing I had used Hastati on that position after the conquest of Italy. They also did very well with their AP pila. On the other hand, Tercio tactics are somewhat limited in EB because of the AI's habit to run around all the time. It is best used when facing the enemy head on when your army has only limited or weaker phalanxis, in particular when the enemy's army is stronger in cavalry:

The correct deployment would be:


M___M
__PP
__PP
M___M

P = Phalanx. Can be 4 units or one or two in a square
M = Mangas. Historicaly musketeers, what we don't have, so use swordfigthers with missle ability (minimum Peltastai, best Cretian Archers)

Because that is somewhat difficult to deploy and moved around without much micromanagement I would use this variant:

M PP M M PP M

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pharnakes

Elephants, armoured elphants if you are rich, then just lure the AI into charging range. (no very hard task, AI being what it is)

---

I just tested that: for less than the money to field 181 Unarmoured Elephant guys I could field 2021 Cataphract Archers. Expensive idea.

Ahh, but its all about the style.

Plus, you guys set the prices, so :shrug:

That's true. The only two other downsides are that nearest elephant country is India which is ususally not your turf yet at the moment you have got to deal with both the Pahalva and/or Pontos and/or Baktria.

And that the war is expensive enough already.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by konny

Outstanding picture, looks like quite risky reenactement or is it from a movie?

---

Its from the movie Alatriste and the scene is the Battle of Rocroi.

I lost a major sabean mercenary army once to a bunch of indian guild warriors. I didn't look at their stats, and hadn't fought in that area of the world before, at that time. If I remember, these guild warriors had AP AND a high attack rating... many AP units have less than stellar attack ratings, but not these guys. They chewed up my better-armored mercenaries something fierce.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eduorius

Its from the movie Alatriste and the scene is the Battle of Rocroi.

---

Thank you. Haven't heard of that movie before, but it is since November on DVD. Will look out for it next year on pay tv.

I've played Carthage, Iberia, and am currently playing Eprieros. And man do I miss my Iberian Medium Spearman! Javelins, hand to hand, they can hold the line against just about anybody AND they've got pace. They may not be the core of an army, but - in my book - they are the best flank units. Cavalry runs up against their spears, they are more numerous then any elite Western units and have I mentioned they can move? And they only get tired AFTER the battle has been decided. Yes, I miss them greatly.:candle:

Under-rated: Keeping in mind the 3 factions I've played (Carthage, Iberia, and Epeiros), front line skirmishers are underrated. Numidian, akonisti and the Iberian skirmishers. Keep in mind their roles as skirmishers and they have turned many a tense battle by a quick flanking move. And the numidians have grinded many a cavalry unit up. Used well, these guys are phenomenal bang for your buck.

Over-rated: Elephants. Not that they are not awesome, but you really have to use them right. I find that they can turn the tide on an open battle field once all units are engaged (more or less). But they are shockingly vulnerable to javelins. I won't throw them against phalanxes and dread the mass of Eastern archers.

I second the nomination for the Iberian Medium Spearman, iberian infantry truly is great. I don't agree with your rating of skirmishers, however....maybe for factions that start and fight in the far west, and stay there - once you get to factions that like to field any sort of missle troop (even slingers), you're gonna have a lot of trouble.

On another note, which are better in quality: hellenic slingers, celtic slingers, or eastern slingers? Disregard the AOR and the cost, which would you prefer? I know that there are many subtle differences between the 3 in points allocated to armor, shield, etc...I don't have the Iosatae unit card from where I am right now, so I cannot study the expanded details of the unit. Which are better?

Because that is somewhat difficult to deploy and moved around without much micromanagement I would use this variant:

Are you including the use of custom formations when you say "much micromanagement"? I mean custom formation by when you group units, change their formation around, hit their group number, ungroup, then group.

Quote:

---

If I remember, these guild warriors had AP AND a high attack rating

---

Another critical factor is something else. It is because they have .265 something lethality.

Lances, AP, with a measly 5 at .4 can still kill enemies from the front, some times after awhile. A specialized AP infantry unit that can flank around your units, hit them in the left and right and rear, AND has that high a lethality, will be carving people up. That's why the Getai with their 10 armor falxes are so valuable. Their lethality is only slightly lower than the Indian guild warriors/longbowmen, but their armor means they have plenty of time to kill enemy infantry.

Personally, I underrated the Indian Guild men and the Indian Longbowmen because the stats for the Getai AP units were better and cheaper. That was until I saw that the Longbowmen had the same lethality as their higher cost guild infantry (which were both higher than the Getai units), and when I put them up against pezhetairo by lining them up behind that phalanx and charging, the pezhetairo lost 20 men in 2-3 seconds. That lethality rules the field right there. They would go through those annoying skirmishers like nuke through glass. Now I had a unit that truly was a "shock unit".

Back to original topic.

The P Phalangitai that Baktria gets is very flexible and it can be recruited in an extremely wide area. It gets a secondary axe weapon with base 5 (6 upgraded) at 16.5% lethality. Costs only about 355 in upkeep, compared to the Polybian Principes (totally ineffective against Ptolemaic EXP 8 18 armored family bodyguards) that cost about 342 in upkeep.

Going off memory here so cannot guarantee total accuracy in upkeep numbers.

I say very flexible, which isn't the same as best in my view, given that I want to be able to use my phalanx for more than pinning enemy soldiers. It would really simply my logistics if I can use phalanxes for flankers, front line infantry, and anti cavalry flankers. The morale of this unit is only normal, not disciplined, which is why it can't be depended upon when surrounded. The Potolemaic elite phalanx was experience 6 and it was surrounded by 3 Baktrian cataphracts at near full strength (80%) for the cats. It didn't break even when the phalanx got down to 22 men. That's dependability right there. But that dependability comes at a cost of flexibility.

In my Romani campaign, I was able to make good use of the Helvetti phalanxes, both the 12 base armor one and the Appea phalanx. The Appea phalanxes had 80-82 men and also had an axe as a secondary weapon. At times when I was facing heavily armored cavalry, such as the Ptolemaic family cats, they were the only unit I had that could pierce the armor. Aside from the Pedites Extraordinarii, which has an extremely long supply, long to mention their high upkeep. This mattered a lot since breaking the enemy morale requires that you surround them and move large numbers of friendly forces near or into engagement with enemy forces at "Wavering". This was in the woods, so I really couldn't see jack to use my cavalry correctly. They were liable to run into skirmishers and spearmen if I take my eyes off them for more than 10 seconds. Using the radar map to give orders would have been a nice solution, except the Epeiros had colors that blended in with the green forest map. So I needed to move my forces quickly to surround and hammer the enemy, before reinforcements could come and make this battle from a quick instant route to a sludge fest. The phalanxes can't move very quickly in formation, so taking them out as my only solution. The plus for using secondary AP axe phalanxes is that their axes can actually kill enough people to rout a unit. Especially from the back and left.

My strategy also requires a strong logistics supply line, which allows me to recruit low level units and provide them fast experience with auto resolve battles. The low end phalanx for Baktria is perfect for my purposes. They won't be able to stand up to the elite phalanxes, what are recognized as "best" out of the box, but at 3 silver or 1 gold, they will be far more useful for the amount of money I use. Not to mention the amount of stack space they take up. Regular battle line infantry are ineffective against phalanxes from up front, which means they can't pin them effectively for my cavalry (they could, I've done it with Pedites, but it is just a cobbled up solution. Phalanx should hold other phalanx) The Pan phalanx can pin other phalanxes, it can also negate enemy heavy swordsmen/hoplitai, as well as stop missile attacks very well (5 shield). The Elite phalanxes only have swords, around base 9 attack I believe, with a lethality of 13 percent. The elite phalanxes are much less versatile to me, and they can't be recruited in the numbers necessary to build up a full stack of 3 silver or 1 gold phalanxes, which is what my strategy requires for success.

The Pandodapoi Phalanx can't kill as fast as Alpine phalanxes, but they still allow me to use them to sweep around an enemy battle line and take them in the rear. This, along with their defense against missiles, their defense against Galatian naked fanatics and other heavy swordsmen, and also against other phalanxes (two phalanxes can't kill each other quickly), means that I can get far more use out of a Pando phalanx from Baktria than most other phalanxes. Also the fact that it has more 40 more men than the Alpine phalanx makes up for the 3 loss in axe attack.

When it is time to expand, only having to build a low level barracks for that phalanx makes my offensive push much more effective. Good for garrisons too. Numidian skirmishers cost about the same in upkeep. (checked, numidian 340, Pant phalanxes cost 320) When I was Roman, I conquered Carthage and its surroundings, but could only build local barracks (year 220BC). Those Numidian skirmishers were freakishly expensive, and very little good in a siege or open field battle. Except for their numbers, which was only 100 for large unit size, when it is 120 for Baktria's levy phalanx. Had to get a lot of them since I didn't have many 10 influence governors at that time.

Quote:

---

<B>Over-rated: Elephants. Not that they are not awesome, but you really have to use them right. I find that they can turn the tide on an open battle field once all units are engaged (more or less). But they are shockingly vulnerable to javelins. I won't throw them against phalanxes and dread the mass of Eastern archers.</b>

---

If I ever use elephants in my Baktria campaign, it will be because I want a tactical challenge. Keeping those big uns alive battle after battle gets to be a very game in itself. Also, I love sneak attack and shock tactics. I've found units that demoralize the enemy, such as Naked Fanatics and spearmen, to be excellent units to include in my army. One is all you need. Better to get more naked fanatics, but the costs are rather extortionist after awhile.

Because Elephants (armored, I probably won't use anything else except for the unarmored bow's attack, which is ridiculous since I have better bowmen) are fragile, meaning they can get killed by sufficiently high level archers/slingers/skirmishers, I will probably hold them in reserve a long long distance away. Probably use them to guard my bowmen or pair them up in a combined arms flank attack. It will take a lot of tactical skill to be able to engage and neutralize everything that can kill an elephant. Which makes sense, Scipio Africanus and Julius Caesar proved that elephants are useless when faced against capable counter-tactics.

I like to think that I'm playing a battle within a battle. I think it will be a sufficient test of skill for me, and as for the upkeep, I pay 10k to 20k in naval upkeep to stay onpair with the Ptolemaio, as the Romani. So, it is worth it to me to pay 5k for one elephant unit as Baktria or Seleucid. I tend to develop my economy very quickly through using cheap units and extermination policies. It is definitely a unit for the end game though, when you are fighting the other "superpower" empire on the other side of the world. Battles in which 4 armies fight it out, can truly benefit from an kataphract elephant. Then your battles will not be decided by who has the "full stack" since both sides have full stacks. Now the problem is "which unit do we choose".

Quote:

---

<B>On another note, which are better in quality: hellenic slingers, celtic slingers, or eastern slingers? Disregard the AOR and the cost, which would you prefer?</b>

---

Personally, I prefer the slingers with the longest range (190), and the largest ammo. The cost isn't that large a problem since I won't ever use them to garrison a town to keep their loyalty up. I would use them for sieges though.

Quote:

---

<B>I don't have the Iosatae unit card from where I am right now, so I cannot study the expanded details of the unit.</b>

---

The celtic slinger, the I, has a three attack. The Eastern slingers have a base attack of 2. The unit recruiter didn't have a range for the Ios, but my use of them implied that their range was just a slinger longer than sotoaroas, which the unit recruiter also didn't have a card for. I don't think their range was max though (max is around 190.4 I think).

There may be some differences in ammo count as well. Eastern has 30. The Hellnic slingers, I recall, had 20 or 25, lower on the whole.

Hetairoi Aspidophoroi /Campanion calvary is a very underrated unit I find, very flexible, and for what they can do, not too expensive, surprised no one mentions them

Apparently there are some weird things going on versus the Iosatae and the Shuban I-Fradakshana (eastern slingers)

Iosatae - 2 missle (30 ammo), range 190, AP. Secondary weapon, 8 atk sword with lethality 0.1, AP (? weird, but according to the official unit cards with everyone's EB 1.0). Defense 9 - 0 in armor, 7 in skill, and 2 in shield. Morale 9, Recruitment cost 193x4. Terrain bonuses: +4 vs chariots, -2 vs. elephants, -2 vs. horse, -2 in forest, -1 in snow. Also, hardy attribute, along with the tree in the unit cards, but the Iosatae don't have bonus in forest? weird.

Eastern slingers - 2 missle (30 ammo), range 190, AP. Secondary weapon, 9 atk knife with lethality 0.04. Defense 9 - 1 in armor, 7 in skill, and 1 in shield. Morale 8, Recruitment cost 179x4. Terrain bonuses: +4 vs chariots, +1 vs elephants, -2 horse, +1 forest, -3 snow. Strange how the eastern slingers fighter better in the forest than the celtic slingers. Also, these eastern slingers have 'hardy' but do not have the tree on their unit card, yet still have a bonus in the forest.

Any opinions on who is better now? I'm thinking the Iosatae, not for their weird AP swords, but because the 2 shield cannot be upgraded, but you can upgrade their armor to 1. Same with eastern slingers, but the eastern slingers, but their shield is only 1 defense. Also, it does strike me odd how the terrain bonuses/penalties are distributed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CirdanDharix

Yeah, that's about all you can do if you don' t have your own. I'd advise strongly against using artillery against them: when it hits them it kills them, but generally it misses. You'll probably get more kills from a quality foot archer unit, such as Syrians or Cretans (Bosphorans probably also, I just haven't tried them). And of course, uber-slingers. Also, in an archer fight, the high ground isn't so much good to avoid friendly fire, as to give your archers a huge advantage against the enemy archers.

But in any case, defeating cataphract archers is going to cost you a fair number of troops. That's why I fear them: no unit is invincible, but most can be defeated fairly easily if you have the right counter whereas the armoured HA will make you bleed no matter what you do.

---

Cataphract archers are amazing.

I'm playing a game as the Saka where I disbanded my entire army and am relying purely on my family members. For those who aren't familiar with them, Saka Armoured Nobles are some of the best cataphract archers in, like, ever. I thought I'd try and see whether anything could stand in their way (and save some money for the perenially poor Saka Rauka).

So far I've wiped out the Parthians and the Baktrians. There are two unit types that have been a particular headache: phalangitai (who are hard to kill by shooting and harder still to engage in melee) and other cataphract archers (who are hard to kill by shooting and harder still to engage in melee). Neither of these really helps the other side to win, but they do have good survivability against cataphract archers which is what makes them such a headache.

There have been two battles where I suffered heavy casualties. The first was against a balanced Baktrian army, which had a bunch of phalangitai, slingers, peltasts and heavy bodyguard cavalry. I suffered something like 28% casualties in that engagement (I was outnumbered by about 6 to 1).

The other tough battle was against Gedrosian rebels, who fielded around 10 Eranshar Arshtbara and some light lancers against three depleted bodyguard units (there were roughly 15 enemy soldiers for every guy I had). The sheer volume of arrow fire was problematic, and if they hadn't retreated every time I charged at them then the arrows would probably have finished me off. As it was, I engaged them in a brawling melee in which I had to work constantly to keep from being surrounded. If the light lancers had charged through the ranks of spearmen when I was pinned down they'd probably have finished me off. In the end, I kept charging and charging until, with 45% casualties on my part, and 55% on theirs, they broke for some unknown reason.

If I was going to design a cataphract archer killer from the ground up, it'd be a heavily armoured archer-spearman. Something like the old school Persian Immortals, or hypaspistai with composite bows. Those guys could go toe to toe and come out on top, for sure.

Since those troops don't exist, my key recommendation for anti-cataphract-archer-duty would be to take a swarm of archer-spearmen with a stiffening of phalangitai (drawn thinly through your lines) and some lancers (heavy or light) for crushing counter-attacks once the enemy are pinned.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gurakshun

Apparently there are some weird things going on versus the Iosatae and the Shuban I-Fradakshana (eastern slingers)

---

Iosatae are two for the price of one:
1) Slingers;
2) Light infantry, well able to deal with cavalry.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mrtwisties

Cataphract archers are amazing.

I'm playing a game as the Saka where I disbanded my entire army and am relying purely on my family members. For those who aren't familiar with them, Saka Armoured Nobles are some of the best cataphract archers in, like, ever. I thought I'd try and see whether anything could stand in their way (and save some money for the perenially poor Saka Rauka).

So far I've wiped out the Parthians and the Baktrians. There are two unit types that have been a particular headache: phalangitai (who are hard to kill by shooting and harder still to engage in melee) and other cataphract archers (who are hard to kill by shooting and harder still to engage in melee). Neither of these really helps the other side to win, but they do have good survivability against cataphract archers which is what makes them such a headache.

There have been two battles where I suffered heavy casualties. The first was against a balanced Baktrian army, which had a bunch of phalangitai, slingers, peltasts and heavy bodyguard cavalry. I suffered something like 28% casualties in that engagement (I was outnumbered by about 6 to 1).

The other tough battle was against Gedrosian rebels, who fielded around 10 Eranshar Arshtbara and some light lancers against three depleted bodyguard units (there were roughly 15 enemy soldiers for every guy I had). The sheer volume of arrow fire was problematic, and if they hadn't retreated every time I charged at them then the arrows would probably have finished me off. As it was, I engaged them in a brawling melee in which I had to work constantly to keep from being surrounded. If the light lancers had charged through the ranks of spearmen when I was pinned down they'd probably have finished me off. In the end, I kept charging and charging until, with 45% casualties on my part, and 55% on theirs, they broke for some unknown reason.

If I was going to design a cataphract archer killer from the ground up, it'd be a heavily armoured archer-spearman. Something like the old school Persian Immortals, or hypaspistai with composite bows. Those guys could go toe to toe and come out on top, for sure.

Since those troops don't exist, my key recommendation for anti-cataphract-archer-duty would be to take a swarm of archer-spearmen with a stiffening of phalangitai (drawn thinly through your lines) and some lancers (heavy or light) for crushing counter-attacks once the enemy are pinned.

---

Drooling at the thought of "Thorakitai Argyraspidai Toxotai" (combination of Hellenic Heavy Armored Spearmen and the Archers) or something of the sort, we've got Thureophontes Toxotai now, but these in spite of being very well armored have neither AP missle attack nor a secondary AP or spear weapon.

These guys were touted as being the new HA killers but they will only slaughter the lowest level of HA, once the HAs even BEGIN to get armored they become vastly superior in missle AND melee ability to the thureophontes toxotai.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios

Iosatae are two for the price of one:
1) Slingers;
2) Light infantry, well able to deal with cavalry.

---

Do they really have that AP sword? or is it a card typo? Cause if they do, yeah they can own cavalry. Even so however, their melee ability is not so impressive as to convice me to send them into melee after they have spent their shot - their poor armor and their primary nature as excellent missle units forbid me from losing even a couple of them in melee fighting.

Another unit of the Celts that can be used (much limited) in mulit-roles are their archer-spearmen. The cavalry in Western-Europe isn't so strong, save for occasionaly Brihentin, Equites Extraordinarii and the Iberian heavies. When I play one of the Celts or the Sweboz (they have the same unit) I throw these archers in the cavalry vs. cavalry fights all around after using all their arrows. That makes a fast decision in these fights to my favour without weakening the main combat line.

But these units shouldn't be sent against other infantry. I have jet to see a Barbarian melee unit that will not cut them to pieces within the shortest time.

Basic Gaeroas are tough as nails in close up combat - good attack, defense, large mass, lots of men, good morale, mince cavalry, and a storm of javelins when needs be. They start to falter once they face lots of missile units, but since I'm aware of that weakness, I've got them more than covered.

Can't fault them so far. I use Hellenic tactics in sieges with them and it works well. In wooden wall provinces, I expend my slingers, draw the enemy to the walls and funnel them into a narrow street, then pin them down with a single unit of Gaeroas on Guard and shower them with javelins from outside the walls. If needs be (such as when I failed to see the 700-strong force marching down the alley to meet them) I get a fast moving sword unit in to carve in the enemy mass from the rear.

By the time I've pushed the fight back to the central square, I'm usually around 2% casualties for around 70% enemy casualties in a 2500 vs. 2500 battle. It's a shame that the Central Square has that damn instant rally effect so it becomes a war of attrition - that's when I suffer the majority of my casualties.

Overrated
1.Galatikoi Lavotuxri/MarhathegnozMediocre armour and charge (for shock cavalry), and their sword isn't even AP! Meh. At least Brinhentin cost 1500 less...
2.Peltastai, who, again, have a crappy 9 atk no AP sword; Theureophoroi, by contrast, are an excellent and efficient unit who can fill any infantry role (except long range)

Underrated (Tougher than U might think)
1. Theureophontes Toxotai. An amazing unit, easily the best archer in the game. ~1000 mnai gets you a unit of these guys. Cross Greek linothorax armour with Skythian panoply and you get these guys.
2. Persian/Arabian Archer-Spearmen. Incredibly cost-efficient; many reasons. They are 800 with upkeep 160 or so, and serve as both a cheap meatshield for cavalry (I've beat Azad Asavaran in melee, no missile with 2 of these) and they have composite bows, much better than Celtic crap.
3: Druhitz Bastarnisku are simply amazing shock infantry; fairly cheap and crack armor really well, no problem. The only better ones IMHO are the Kluddargos, who fight the Dosidataskeli for the title of best infantry.
4 (Had to stick these guys on) I cannot commend these guys high enough: the Zradha Shivatir. 3500 gets you 100 elite heavy cavalry plus 100 horse-archers that can take a hit. 4/41s is awesome for 3500 even without the bow. I'm too impressed to not leave them off this list. Prolly best (non-general) unit in the game. Roxolani nobles do the same thing with better stamina but less durability.

Honorable Mentions: Slingers, Roxolani Nobles, Most Hoplitai, Theureophoroi (the Greek ones)

Question: did Alexander disband the Immortals, I forget. They'd have their iconic spear and composite bow. Historically, they had thin scale armour under their tunic, which hid their face with a veil.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gurakshun

Do they really have that AP sword? or is it a card typo? Cause if they do, yeah they can own cavalry. Even so however, their melee ability is not so impressive as to convice me to send them into melee after they have spent their shot - their poor armor and their primary nature as excellent missle units forbid me from losing even a couple of them in melee fighting.

---

it's a card typo, check out the EDU

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gamegeeek2

Overrated
2.Peltastai, who, again, have a crappy 9 atk no AP sword; Theureophoroi, by contrast, are an excellent and efficient unit who can fill any infantry role (except long range)

---

To be honest, these guys aren't bad since their main job is lobbing a butt load of javelins at people and flanking.

Peltastai are indeed fine flankers. 9 non-AP sword is the standard sidearm of Hellenic infantry of the line, even Pezhetairoi don't do better with their secondary weapon.

I might not go as far as to say over-rated {then I might and you will never know Muhahahah} , however Balearic Slingers have supprisingly low range and ammunition loadout {especially given their historical reputation as the Kings of 'em all} .

Range 165 , ammo 20 .
Compare that only Accensi and Arab Slingers have lower range {160} and 20 bullets is the lowest slinger loadout also . Sphendoneti have 5 more range and ammo of 30 , Celtic slingers have range 190 with 30 bullets as do Eastern Slingers . The only advantage Balerics start with is higher attack {however it doesn't take long to get Celtic slingers one experience point} and higher moral .

I'm wondering if their range and loadout is a mistake ?
Granted , I've read that they used ceramic bullets instead of lead {not sure if that is correct however} still that shouldn't mean a smaller loadout , but rather a larger one {lighter ammunition that is easier to aquire - clay is cheaper and more abundant than lead} .







As for other units , I could say allsorts , but for now I'll just echo the general concensus that Gaesatae are made of win :yes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pezhetairoi

Belgae Milnaht. They simply don't cut it. They die faster than similar-level infantry from mainland gaul or even similarly half-naked Germans, and their unit size of 160, in a region swarming with 240 and comparable 200-man battalions, simply doesn't cut the cake except that they fill up a small recruitment gap, and even then not by much.

---

I had other experience with this guys. They fought quite well against my pricepes, had to send in pedites extraordinarii to throw them back. But maybe they were veteran troops, so you could be right.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jhhowell

They're basically slingers without the AP. Real archers come in larger units with much higher attack values. I find it puzzling that their zone of recruitment extends east of the Sinope-Tarsus line, and even in the west I'd prefer sphendonetai...

Another underrated unit: Georgian Medium Infantry. Not as good as Srakir Martikner, but they appear as mercenaries who can later be retrained in northern Hayasdan cities. I found that very helpful to sidestep the question of how to build up my armies without stunting population growth.

Possibly overrated: the top-end Hayasdan noble units (infantry and cataphracts). The infantry doesn't seem enough better than the Srakir Martikner to justify the effort, and the upkeep cost has kept me away from the cataphracts so far. Especially since the cataphract HA and Kinsmen are both such outstanding units.

---

Well toxotai are still usesful on city walls setting rams and towers on fire.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Imperial Fist

I had other experience with this guys. They fought quite well against my pricepes, had to send in pedites extraordinarii to throw them back. But maybe they were veteran troops, so you could be right.

---

When playing Casse those men had done very fine in assaults on towns. In one battle a unit of Milnaht cut down about 500 foes at the gate (the result was submitted last month as screenshot) by the loss of some 80 own.