[OOC] This thread is for players in the King of the Romans PBM to post in character public deliberations in the Imperial Diet. All out of character debate should be conducted in the OOC thread.
Full sessions of the Diet have two main functions: to elect a Chancellor, who manage the Empire, and to pass Edicts or Charter Amendments that will direct the Chancellor.
The Diet will be chaired by the Kaiser, the Prinz or the Diet Speaker.
Edicts need to be formally proposed as follows:
Edict 14.1This House directs the Chancellor to occupy province X.
where 14.1 refers to the first proposed edict of the eleventh session of the Diet.
Edicts need two seconders (who should explicitly use the word "second" when supporting a motion) before they can be put to the vote. Where edicts conflict, the one with more votes takes precedence.
*****
Elberhard: Electors, we meet together at a new Diet for the first time in many a year. And, by God, those years have been @#$%^&!!! @#$%^&!!!ing sons born of @#$%^&!!! @#$%^&!!!ing mothers.
We meet together in Nuremburg, historic capitol of Bavaria, not of the Reich. The Reich’s ancient and proper capitol lies a shattered and ruined city under the oppressive rule of the Byzantines. The great urban populations of Rome, along with those of Antioch, Bologna and Venice have been mercilessly exterminated – man, woman and child – by the Greeks.
We meet together to govern a diminished Reich, with less than half the number of provinces it spanned at its height. Each House has been humbled and beaten down. Outremer is no more than a Citadel, alone and defiant.
We meet together battered, but still the most powerful nation on God’s earth. However, our power attracts few friends and many enemies. The great nation of England, home of our Empress, still stands by us. The Papacy also stands with us, although its opinion of us is sorely tried by the blasphemy and destruction of the religious extremists who have plagued our lands. So, we have few friends. But our foes are legion. We struggle to fend off multiple invasions. – not just from the Byzantines, but also the French, the Danes, the Poles, the Hungarians, the Venetians and the Sicilians. The @#$%^&!!!ing Mohammadens would like to get a piece of us, but complain they can’t get through the crowds of our Christian foes hammering at the gates of our Citadels!
We meet together, each and every Elector of the Reich. But there are empty chairs in the debating chamber. The seat at my right – the seat of the Reich’s greatest general, one of its most successful Chancellors, the late Duke of Swabia and Hans, is vacant. My brother was cut down – like Kaiser Siegfried - not by a foreign invader, but by one of our own! By one of our own! Think on this, Electors – most of those Electors who have died during the past cataclysm have not died at the hands of outsiders, but at the hands of Germans. They were not killed by strangers, but by brothers. We killed them. I have sworn to Duke Lothar that I will let the past be the past, so I will not dwell on this. But the lesson is stark – we are the greatest nation on earth and there is no greater threat to us than that which comes from within.
Electors, we meet in trying times but we do meet. We are here. We are back – together. We have an opportunity to plan, to unite and to turn the tide. Our enemies come on at us without imagination, strategy or guile. We must elect a Chancellor who can outthink and outfight our enemies. One who can restore and deploy the great resources of the Reich – above all, the many talents of our generals.
We also meet to pass legislation. But I urge you not to succumb to the temptation to promote petty individual ambitions and seek personal glory. Nor should you scheme to promote the interests of one House above the others. Worse still would be attempts to fundamentally change our Charter. Electors now is not the time for Constitutional Reform! Now is a time of crisis, a time for action – we cannot afford to fritter away our energies on the work of lawyers and any reconstruction we attempt in haste under the present duress will surely be botched. If we pass legislation, let it be focussed, enabling legislation – Edicts that allow the Chancellor to do what must be done for the good of the Reich.
And so, with those opening remarks, I now declare the 14th full session of the Diet open. There will be a five day period of debate. The deadline for Edicts and Charter Amendments to receive two seconders is 3.30pm Wednesday (UK time). All candidates for the position of Chancellor must declare themselves by that time and have proposed manifestoes here. There will then be a 24 hour period of voting.
I would like to begin the business of the Diet by proposing:
Charter Amendment 14.1:Antwerp is formally incorporated into the Reich.
The disastrous civil war in Swabia has greatly weakened our western flank, but it has brought one benefit – the city of Antwerp is now in German hands. It is a rich city and potentially protected from invasion by land Bruges and Hamburg. Unless CA 14.1 is passed, we will have to abandon it. Do I have two seconders?
12-14-2007, 16:50
econ21
Re: Imperial Diet VII
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Written by AussieGiant
Standing to address the Diet chamber, Duke Arnold is unusually attired in fine cloths rather than his traditional Obsidian Armour.
Covered from head to foot in predominately black, the Duke's coat of arms is embroidered on his black tunic, his Fathers sword hangs at his belt. For all intense and purposes he looks rather normal as apposed to his more intimidating self.
MY KAISER, PRINZ of the REALM, NOBLE LORDS!!!
The Duke's voice is as commanding and as near a physical force as always. The scribes and serving staff are rooted to the spot for some moments while his opening line seems to die slowly in the chamber.
Sweeping his gaze across the room the Duke can be seen smiling and seems in an expansive mood. He walks steadily onto the chamber floor, his spur shod riding boots chinking in a steady rhythm.
Regarding the position of Chancellor...recently I've placed great thought on the matter after being cooped up in Ragusa for some years.
There is a pause of some moments as he seems to contemplate a few thoughts.
I believe I am the perfect candidate at this time, therefore I am formally announcing my candidacy for the position!!
Silence is the immediate response.
Into that silence can be heard a clear but almost inaudible response from the Dukes Priest sitting some distance at the back of the Austrian benches.
My god have mercy on us all.
A raised eyebrow is all the response the Duke gives away.
Now, I know some of you might have reservations about me and my reputation, certainly my own Priest's comments maybe the first thought that has come to many of your minds, and I can't say that I am displeased with that type of response.
Because it is that very response, doubt and terror, that we must instill in our enemies, that I will certainly inflict on them as Chancellor.
We have been weakened, critically so, and like vultures circling a wounded lion our enemies have only blood and victory on their minds.
What I can guarantee, without a shadow of doubt, is that with my election to the position of Chancellor every King, Prince, Doge and Sultan on this earth with take stock for just a few moments before continuing their war against us, and it is in these moments that we will hold our lines then strike back and begin the rebuilding and reconquest of our LANDS!!!!
Striding purposefully across the Diet floor the Dread Knight Bane hands his Duke a parchment. Clapping his hands on the Dark Knights shoulder they confer for a few moments. As the fully helmed and armoured figure returns to the Austrian benches the Duke turns to address the assembly.
Without going into too much detail here are my credentials and strategy.
Reading now from the parchment the Duke continues.
I've marshaled the Eastern Front in what I would arguably say was a text book “Fighting Retreat” against enormous odds.
Raising his hand to indicate the Lord of Austria in attendance.
I'd like to personally pay tribute to my most senior noble and friend Lord Zirn. He actions and bravery were legend to me and I had only heard about them in letters from my sister...he is everything and more she has ever written.
Lorenz Zirn, as crazed a man as I've ever met, loyal to the end and always looking for a fight. He has all the qualities I could ask for!
Count Karolinger and Sir Tancred.
The Duke scans the Bavarian and Franconia benches before making eye contact with them both.
I've written to you both privately and as you know I've sent my heart felt thanks to your respective Dukes. In acknowledgment of your service to Austria I have had two head stones installed in the Austrian Chamber to forever engrave your contribution to the House.
I must also thank the Kaiser most recently for his assistance in Zagreb.
Finally my Lord Becker, who, even though we have had our differences managed to find common ground with me and resolve our issues without spilling German blood. His contribution to the defense of Austria was isolated but no less important to both the Houses of Franconia and Bavaria.
The Duke pauses, the memories of the crisis seem to linger in his eyes, clearly he has been greatly affected by the events that have unfolded. Finally he blinks away the memories and continues to read from the parchment.
I was the only senior noble NOT to get involved in that disastrous civil war in Swabia!!
I've been governing multiple provinces and men since I was a young man. The scale of the Empire is not beyond anything I have not done to date.
Essentially my lords the goals are clear and obvious.
Recover from the disastrous events of the past few years, restore the economy, and
retake our lost territories.
The difficulties we face in returning to our previous standing in the world will be immense but I firmly believe I am supremely qualified and have a clear track record of diplomacy, governance and military success to draw on.
Looking up from the parchment the Duke lets it fall to the floor. Placing his hands behind his back he begins to walk slowly around the chamber floor.
I'm not going to promise anything at this time. The economy is beginning to reorganise itself and I have no doubt that the military must be reorganized. Combine this with the need to reconstruct an enormous number of destroyed buildings and I am simply not going to make economic promises that I have no ability to guarantee. This includes recruitment and reinforcement!
Again the Duke pauses.
Pacing across the floor he begins to absorb a sense of increased energy, there is a fierce feeling of intensity and drive emanating from him.
At last he stops, raising his head suddenly he seems to lock eyes with everyone present, giving the impression that he is talking directly to each noble in the chamber on a personal level.
As he begins to speak, his voice is so quite that even the scribes lean forward to catch the words he is saying.
I want to be very clear at this time. I'm taking a clear stance on the Cataclysm, the Swabian Civil War AND the War of Reformation...it's over, they are in the past and I'm not interested in discussing them or attaching blame. There is an enormous amount of work to be done and I will only engage and work with those of you who are focused on the future and the goals I have outlined. If you bring up the past with me, expect me to end that debate with the resolve and fire I am famous for.
I'm not a forgiving man nor am I someone who forgets and I'm not asking you to...but to do anything but focus our energies on the future will simply jeopardies our ability to recover...AND THAT...IS ALL...I AM INTERESTED IN!!
In a sudden and blinding move his fathers sword flashes before the Diet chamber, arcs for a split second over his head and with enormous strength cleaves the Imperial Scribes desk in two pieces. Both scribes proceed to faint completely unharmed in their seats.
This type of action needs to be directed at our enemies and not against each other. If anyone is not with us then as Chancellor I will ensure anyone's...”alternative” approach to rebuilding will look something like the desk here in front of me.
Reaching into his pocket the Duke proceeds to flip and coin clear across the Diet floor to a page boy.
Be a good lad and get the Imperial Carpenter to replace this mess will you.
Swinging back towards the chamber the naked blade of his father sword reflecting in the light, Duke's smiling face seems at odds with the violence of only a few moments ago.
The glittering threat of violence in his eyes is unmistakable and makes the next sentence sound more of a warning than anything else said before.
We must be united my Lords!! It's clear in my mind, it is the right thing to do, and it's the only OPTION we have in our present circumstances.
Elect me Chancellor, and I will lead the Reich forward to rebirth, to reconstruction and to revenge!
With that the Duke sheaths his sword and returns to his seat. Upon finally taking a seat he leans forward in his chair for one last comment.
I look forward to discussing any details with you all. I now open the floor to any other candidate or questions.
12-14-2007, 17:20
_Tristan_
Re: Imperial Diet VII
A young man, visibly French from his garments and complexion, makes his entry in the Diet. His tabard is travel-worn but through the dust a red cross can be seen on a field of once-pure white. Following close, behind him, a grizzled man in armour and wearing the same travel-worn tabard is bearing the young Lord's helm. He looks somewhat lost but eager and goes to take a seat on the benches reserved to Swabian Electors.
12-14-2007, 17:34
Privateerkev
Re: Imperial Diet VII
Dieter von Essen:
A young man enters the Diet. It is clear that he is awed by it's awesomeness. He makes his way to the center. While attempting to show courage, it is clear that he is uneasy. Once at the center, he summons the conviction to speak without letting his voice shake too much.
Noblemen of the Reich! I am here to officially present myself before this august body. My name is Dieter von Essen and I have just married Count Zirn's eldest daughter. I am here to serve the Reich and Austria in these trying times. I will now officially swear fealty to the Kaiser and Duke Arnold.
Dieter walks up to the Kaiser's throne and kneels.
Mein Kaiser, I present myself to you as a noble of the Reich. May you use me as a humble servant to smite our enemies. God bless you and God bless the Reich!
Dieter then stands up and walks to the Austrian benches. He kneels before Duke Arnold.
Mein Duke, I present myself to you as an Austrian noble. May you use me as a humble servant to smite Austria's enemies. God bless you and God bless House Austria!
Dieter stands up, walks to the Austrian benches and stands before his new father-in-law.
Count Zirn, thank you again for giving me your daughter's hand in marriage. I hope I make you proud and do justice to the Zirn name.
Finally, Dieter sits in an Austrian seat and watches the proceedings with anticipation and excitement.
12-14-2007, 17:51
_Tristan_
Re: Imperial Diet VII
The young Templar Lord rises from the benches of Swabia and reaches the center of the chamber.
Clearing his throat, he starts speaking in a soft but commanding voice.
Mes Seigneurs, pardon my poor command of your language but I was until now a Franc by name and heart but things have changed in my country and I have been forced to seek shelter somewhere else and where better than in the Empire.
I shall be known in these walls by the name Hugo von Holland.
Please do not ask questions if you think that name sounds strange, somethings are better left unsaid.
Falling with a knee to the ground, and head bowed, he continues.
Mon Empereur, I wish to express my most heartfelt thanks for the offer you made me and for accepting me among your Lords.
I did not expect such a welcome from our long-time enemies.
Mon Duc, I also wish to express my thanks for accepting me in the House of Swabia, thus allowing me to regain one day what is now lost to me, or at least have revenge for the wrongs done on me and mine.
To show my gratitude to you my Emperor, let me be the first to second your Edict.
The young Lord then walks back to the Swabian benches, getting a smile and a nod from the grizzled old warrior standing behind his bench.
[EDIT] : I had forgotten the name part...
12-14-2007, 17:54
FactionHeir
Re: Imperial Diet VII
Ruppels sifts somewhat lost through all those papers and stops for a mere moment to speak before he returns to his read
I second the emperor's charter amendment
12-14-2007, 18:46
OverKnight
Re: Imperial Diet VII
Matthias enters the Diet looking tired and travel worn, almost as if he has come fresh from a battle. He kneels before the Kaiser and then rises to speak to the Chamber.
My lords, it is good to be back. I had forgotten what it was like to have all of us in one place.
Matthias pauses as if a bit overwhelmed.
I, with the assistance of Sir Andreas von Salzgitter, have stemmed the Greek advance in Outremer. Their forces, which had been driving on Acre, have been thrown back. This has allowed me to attend this session personally.
While the Kaiser has wisely spoken about refraining from changing the Charter, I am afraid that the new situation in Outremer is something Kaiser Henry never envisioned when he authored the Charter of Outremer. A new Charter is needed to cope with these difficult times.
Believe me, I'd rather be driving the Greeks into the sea than proposing law, but is necessary.
Therefore I would like to propose:
Charter Amendment 14.2: A new Charter for Outremer is to be adopted, what is proposed below will completely replace all previous legislation relating to the Kingdom (Changes are in bold).
The Revised Charter of the Kingdom of Outremer
1. The Kingdom of Outremer will consist of Antioch, Acre and Adana as its core territories, they cannot be given or bartered away. If they are lost, they must be reclaimed as quickly as possible. The Kingdom may also include up to three more territories, with preference given to Aleppo, Damascus and Edessa. However, no conquest is allowed of any territories belonging to an ally.
2. The Kingdom of Outremer is an integral part of the Reich. It is not a fifth House.
3. The function of the Kingdom is mainly defensive: to safeguard Jerusalem and protect the gateway to Christendom. However, conquest is permitted against heathens and schismatics as long as it does not endanger the defense of Jerusalem. If a Pope assumes power who excommunicates the Reich, Jerusalem may be taken, if needed, as part of his removal, but it must be immediately donated back to the Church upon reconciliation.
4. The Kingdom will be overseen by a Viceroy of Outremer, who will be selected by the Emperor from among the current Crusaders. A Viceroy is appointed by the Emperor at each regular Diet Session. Viceroys may be reappointed. The Viceroy will renounce all loyalties to his House for the duration of his appointment. The Viceroy of Outremer is permitted to resign, if the Emperor is willing to accept the resignation, upon which a new Viceroy is appointed by the Emperor. If the Viceroy of Outremer is deemed incapable of his assignment, he may be impeached by the Emperor and two Dukes, by the Prince and three Dukes, or by the agreement of all four Dukes. Upon removal, the Emperor will appoint a new Viceroy.
5. The Viceroy will command an Army, equivalent to a Household Army with the Viceroy assuming the role of “Duke”. If the Kingdom is larger than or equal to three territories, a second such Army will be placed at his disposal. He may delegate the day to day command of the Army or Armies to other Generals.
6. Outremer’s provinces will be governed by Crusader Counts, except for the designated capital, which is the personal domain of the Viceroy. The Crusader Counts are appointed by the Viceroy and serve at his discretion. They will gain +1 influence, but only if they are not already a Count in their Duchy, and only for the duration of their appointment. The cap of 6 influence for all but the Emperor remains. If any County is left unassigned, the Viceroy will set the build queue for it.
7. Both the Viceroy and the Crusading Counts must be physically located outside Europe for the duration of their appointments.
8. All four Houses of the Reich have a stake in the Kingdom. While the loss of many of the original Outremer Counties currently negates apportionment by House, assignment of Counties will ensure that each Duchy is represented by a Crusader Count if one is present. All efforts will be made to assign a Swabian to Acre and a Bavarian to Adana. Once there are two newly acquired territories, they will be governed by representatives of Franconia and Austria. While historical precedents will be respected, priority will be given to Crusaders who are in Outremer.
9. The Viceroy of Outremer is allowed to propose two pieces of legislation per Diet Session related to Outremer. Prior to being tabled in the Diet, these must be seconded by two Crusaders, or if there is less than two Crusaders, one will suffice.
OOC: The Viceroy will have +2 influence as presently given to the King. All references in the Reich's Charter to the King of Outremer are to be changed to the Viceroy of Outremer.
Matthias pauses after reading the amendment.
I realize that the Kingdom now only consists of Acre, and that this proposal seems a bit odd considering the circumstances. But I swear that Outremer will be rebuilt, and to do so will require a strong foundation. This Charter provides that.
I would be glad to answer any questions about the Charter.
Matthias seats himself at the edge of the Bavarian section.
12-14-2007, 19:01
Ferret
Re: Imperial Diet VII
I second CA 14.2
12-14-2007, 19:19
Privateerkev
Re: Imperial Diet VII
Dieter von Essen stands,
Count Matthias,
I hereby second CA 14.2.
With Duke Arnold's permission and blessing, I wish to be reassigned to Outremer as soon as is practical in order to serve as Austria's representative in the Holy Land. My new bride has told me many tales of her life growing up in Damascus and it is my wish that Damascus once again come under the loving protective embrace of the Reich.
Dieter sits
12-14-2007, 20:27
Ramses II CP
Re: Imperial Diet VII
I would urge that all members of the Diet take the words of Matthias Steffen to heart. Outremer is the key to the eventual defeat of the foul Byzantines, the very source of much of our latest difficulties. Despite being utterly abandoned by his companions, including his Kaiser, Matthias Steffen has, with vision and forethought, made the best of a terrible situation. Ask yourselves this, gentlemen, if we should abandon the homelands of Jesus to the Muslim and Orthodox hordes what wrath might fall upon the Holy Roman Empire from the heavens?
Matthias Steffen's amendment should be passed without pointless bickering from those of us hundreds of leagues distant from the situation.
I would further ask, of the Kaiser, is it really necessary to have two edicts to incorporate Antwerp into Swabia? Simply tie the two together in a single edict and it will have my support. Otherwise one must ask what exactly it is you intend to do with the city.
:egypt:
12-14-2007, 21:07
_Tristan_
Re: Imperial Diet VII
Hugo von Holland stands from the Swabian benches and clears his throat.
King Steffen,
I have fought many battles against the Muslims from my Temple chapter house in the Levant.
If you would have me, I would gladly join you in the defense of Outremer.
Guillaume, that you can see behind me, will also come with me as well as my own retainers, Templar brothers all.
My sword is yours to command.
I hereby second CA 14.2.
France is too near for my own good at the moment... Too many memories...
Hugo sits back down, a sad and faraway look upon his face.
12-14-2007, 21:07
Ramses II CP
Re: Imperial Diet VII
Fritz von Kastilien sweeps a sheaf of papers into a battered leather case, rises to his feet and raises his voice above the low rumble of varied discussion.
I stand now to announce my own candidacy for the position of Chancellor of the Reich.
While the lordly Duke Arnold has preceeded me in listing his admirable qualities, he has, as is his wont, settled rather single mindedly on a single possible course of action. 'Strike our enemies, drive fear into their hearts, and conquer them!' Very well said, one cannot help but concur and even cheer such a course.
And yet... if the cataclysmic events of the last few years have taught us anything, it should be that our enemies do not fear us, our armies are not immune to defeat, and our own decisions are sometimes more threatening than any external opponent. The Dread Duke is a fearsome and valiant warrior for the Reich, but his approach to the other aspects of governance reveal that his penchant for force extends well beyond the battlefield.
Here Fritz pauses to gesture gently at the broken remnants of the scribe's desk.
What the Reich needs in truth is a not merely a man who inspires fear in his friends and enemies alike, but a man whose experiences and characteristics mirror those of the Reich itself.
A man like me.
Again Fritz pauses to look across the chamber, well aware of a few discreet snickers and coughs.
Yes, like me, a man who has demonstrated valor in the field and at the walls.
A man who has conducted difficult negotiations with a dedicated foe, and brought home a ceasefire.
A man who has managed to remain devoutly faithful in a trying religious time, who has held steadfast his loyalty even in the face of horrific errors by the leadership of his nation, and who has made great sacrifices for the good of his House and his Empire.
Again Fritz pauses, just long enough to meet the Kaiser's gaze.
A man, too, who has erred, whose own mistakes have cost him personally just as the mistakes of the leadership of the Reich have had terrible consequences for us all.
I am that man who has suffered with the Reich, who has been wrong as has the Reich, and I am the man who has sought out the reasoning of his error and redeemed it in sacrifice.
Now Fritz's gaze travels across the entire room, quickly seeking out every noble and man of consequence.
Just as we of the Reich must all redeem ourselves.
It is early to speak of policy, but let me be clear that we will not retreat. Where Germans have planted our flag, there will the line be drawn. If any of us falter at the line let another arise to take his place. If any of us rebel, let every hand be raised against him and every face turned from him. Now is the time for solidarity. Now is the time for our return to glory and the path of righteousness. Now is the time for victory!
God be with you, nobles of the Reich!
Fritz returns to his seat, his face dark but unreadable.
12-14-2007, 21:22
_Tristan_
Re: Imperial Diet VII
Hugo von Holland stands again and bows to Matthias Steffen, looking a bit flustered.
Lord Steffen, some people have made me remark that I shouldn't have called you King.
I hereby wish to present my excuses to any people who saw any malice in this.
Nevertheless, out of respect for the Lord I hope to serve, and in the light of the Charter Amendment you proposed, let me call you Viceroy.
So Viceroy Steffen, command me and I shall obey...
Hugo sits back down, with a look of assurance about him.
12-14-2007, 21:41
Zim
Re: Imperial Diet VII
Another young man enters the Council chamber. He is somewhat above average size, with wide shoulders and a square jaw. He is wearing a traveler's cloak, a tabard with a crusading symbol, and chainmail armor, as well as the dust of a long travel. He moves to take a seat in the Outremer section by Matthias Steffen. Before he sits, he nods to Hugo and Dieter von Essen.
Hello gentlemen. I hope to fight by you in Outremer someday. It is a difficult situation, but quite satisfying to serve the Lord in such a way.
12-14-2007, 22:17
Stuperman
Re: Imperial Diet VII
I fully support My Brother-in-Law's ideas about the outremer, Our mission as the HRE is to protect the church from threats within, and without. This legislation gives us the legal tools we need to enforce God's will in the holy land.
12-14-2007, 22:17
Privateerkev
Re: Imperial Diet VII
Dieter sits in silent awe as the Crusader nods at him. To him, these men are giants. Larger than life. He nervously nods back.
12-14-2007, 22:23
Warluster
Re: Imperial Diet VII
Duke von Salza enters and takes his place at the Swabian bench, the place is different to Rome, but he soon takes it in his stride.
I have guaranteed my support, so I second CA 14.2.
I hear the Kaiser's call for past differences forgotten, so I willhave to, though with extreme difficulty...
Athalwolf glares at the bavarian bench.
While I congratulate the two men already putting themselves forward for such a difficult job, I wish to question their motives. Both men seem to have a, war like past, as Chancellor, would you rule the Reich through war? And would you take enough in to also control the government side of things?
I am assured, and reassured, that you would rule us greatly with military, but with resources...
Duke von Salza sits, and awaits a long answer.
12-14-2007, 22:57
Stuperman
Re: Imperial Diet VII
Fredericus summons a paige, hands him a hastly scribbled note, and sends him towards the Swabian Deligation
12-14-2007, 23:00
gibsonsg91921
Re: Imperial Diet VII
Ha, I see we have two strong candidates for Chancellor this term. I would vote for my friend Arnold, or my brother Fritz, on the basis of the spoils system. Of course, in times like these and in all others, the spoils system is complete and absolute folly. The Chancellor should be elected on the basis of merit. Perhaps a debate is in order to determine who is best suited to the position?
12-14-2007, 23:18
Ramses II CP
Re: Imperial Diet VII
Duke von Salza I would hope that my negotiation of a ceasefire with the Russians and my gathering of overwhelming support for the Anti-Unification proclamation have proved that I have skills and experience beyond the battlefield. I concede that Duke Arnold has run a larger territory than I, but given the nature of Franconian politics in my lifetime I would hardly say he has managed a more complex set of circumstances than I.
Management of a nation's resources is not within the experience of any of the current candidates, so I claim to be as qualified as any.
:egypt:
12-14-2007, 23:21
gibsonsg91921
Re: Imperial Diet VII
Tell me brother, and Duke Arnold, what will you do to bring the finances of the Reich into the black once again?
And trust me, my inquisitive attitude is not questioning your merit or the Duke's. Both of you seem very strong candidates and great warriors, but who shall garner the support of the masses?
12-14-2007, 23:26
Stuperman
Re: Imperial Diet VII
By selling Greek slaves perhaps? what else would they be good for, I tried strapping a few to my plow, but 8 of those wastes-of-food couldn't do as well a single German Ox.
12-14-2007, 23:27
Cecil XIX
Re: Imperial Diet VII
While Count Fritz has more experience dealing with foreign powers, it is Duke Arnold who has the better record of dealing with his fellow electors. I know from first-hand experience that he is quite capable of negotiating with any and all parties of the Reich with an even-handed but stern attitude.
12-14-2007, 23:33
Northnovas
Re: Imperial Diet VII
The eldest member of the chamber rises and slowly makes his way to the floor from the Austrian benches. He acknowledges familiar faces on his way to the floor but there are also a lot of fresh new faces. This was becoming the new Reich.
My Kaiser, Electors, it feels good to be in a chamber and to discuss the business of the Reich. It has been a long time since we have gathered and though it is not Rome this building and city serves the purpose that is on hand. I have seen much in my years and it is good to see things come full circle and the stage of rebirth.
We have come through some dark times and there are very few here to remember how it all started. Let us take a moment and remember those brave nobles who are no longer with us……..
I am not here to talk about the past those are tales to be told elsewhere. I am here to talk about the future one that I will not see.
I am here to announce publicly my support for Duke Arnold. Why? It is his time. I have watched this boy become a man and mature into a statesman. Just think of the situation in Prague. His father Leopold was a fine Chancellor for us and it’s now it is his sons turn. I don’t support him because he is Austrian and family. No I support him because of his ability to manage in a crisis. Just look at how Austria had faced adversity and remained united. We need a man who will lead us through the difficult situation we found ourselves. We are not out of the woods yet. There are armies at our borders and cities. We have to fight to get some breathing room. Rebuild our infrastructure and then seek our vengeance one step at a time. Reclaim what is rightful ours and punish those that took advantage of us in a weak moment. Duke Arnold is our man to lead us in this time of renewal.
Noble Matthias Steffen, comrade warrior, a man of principles. He needs our help. I have spent my whole live in the Outremer defending the faith, recapturing the Holy City of Jerusalem in the Second Crusade from the heathens that occupied it. It is our duty to protect that city and what it represents. This Diet should not be bickering when and if and how much. We should be saying now, who and at all cost. I must caution those that think they are for the call to serve. It is a long and laborious journey, you may not return. You are taking on a special mission to serve God and the Kaiser to protect the faith. It takes a special individual. It was only God’s work that I left and ended up having to defend my own lands and if I could I would be leading the call back to the Outremer and assist Count Steffen.
Nobles, we have a lot of work to do lets focus on electing the right man for Chancellor answering the call of God and rebuilding this great nation. I pass the torch on to this generation to carry it proudly and let be your guiding light to correct the wrongs that have been done and make the Reich greater then it has very been.
The old man bows towards the Kaiser and slowly makes his way back to his seat.
12-14-2007, 23:35
Zim
Re: Imperial Diet VII
If I may, my lords, what are your policies towards Outremer? It is in a difficult position, and it would take a strong Chancelor to improve it's situation.
12-14-2007, 23:43
Ferret
Re: Imperial Diet VII
I am pledging my support to Fritz, despite the many disagreements we have had. I do not see how you can say that Arnold handled the Prague incident well, after failing to have enough men to attack, as he wanted, he was forced to simply accpet the insult to his rule and lose a County. Does the fact that Becker rebelled in the first place not suggest that Arnold's politics are not as efficient as you seem to think Karl? Perhaps your age has blinded your judgement.
Fritz, on the other hand, has made an entire nation of bitter enemies of the Reich bow to our knees in peace! The Russians were set on revenge and no man other than Fritz could have stopped their tides of warriors with his skills in the art of Politics. As for finaces I see Fritz as the superior in this area as well, not many can field an entire army of treasure hungry mercenaries and fund the lot from his own success!
Fritz is also far more helpful to other members of the Reich. He has benefited the entire House of Franconia and saved it from destruction many times, thus blocking the path for three of the Reich's greatest enemies into the rest of our Empire. Arnold has barely managed to hold on to his castle and made no attempt to help his fellow electors of Austria when almost of all the Counties there were threatened. No Karl, Fritz is the man to lead us to glory, greater glory than ever before!
12-14-2007, 23:54
vpmd
Re: Imperial Diet VII
A man walks into the Diet, staring at the assembly of great, established noblemen around him as he walks somewhat awkwardly in the general direction of the Bavarian section with an scribe following him looking very nervous as well. Trying not to be too noticeable, he takes a seat in the Bavarian section, nodding at Matthias Steffen, clearly intimidated by the great Crusader. He sits down, hoping he will be assumed to be a new Bavarian elector and that he need not summon the sbility of speech to introduce himself.
12-15-2007, 00:08
Cecil XIX
Re: Imperial Diet VII
My reasons had nothing to do with Duke Arnold's abilities as a leader. More importantly, the resolution of that situation came about because Duke Arnold was smart enough to want to avoid a repeat of the tragedy at Bran, as well as patient enough to continue negotiations until both parties were able to get what they wanted.
If anyone else besides Arnold had been Duke of Austria during the cataclysm, more German lives would have been wasted in fratricidal conflict and/or I would be before you putting forth a charter amendment recognizing the succession of Bohemia.
12-15-2007, 00:31
Ignoramus
Re: Imperial Diet VII
Maximilian von Hapsburg rises to his feet.
Before I put forward mein edict, I must declare mein support for Arnold Salian, Duke of Austria, for Chancellor.
I now propose Charter Ammendment 14.3: "The Kaiser is granted authority to strip a Duke of his Duchy if a majority of electors of that House agrees."
Electors, we must not blame the current Kaiser for the woes of the last 40 years. It is true that he continued his predecessors policy of pursuing unification on religion with the Greeks. However, this was Kaiser Siegfried's policy, not Kaiser Elberhard's. Kaiser Elberhard's hands were tied. If he pulled out of the negotiations, then the Greeks would have a just causus belli against us. Doubtless, what was left of our already pathetic reputation would be shattered, and we would find even our allies, the English, joining the fray against us.
Nein, the greater blame must be attached to the Houses during this period of disaster. Electors hadn't enough respect for the authority of the Kaiser, that nothing held them back from rebelling from their Dukes.
I would fain propose another edict, but, alas, Diet procedure forbids me from doing so. Nevertheless, I will state what I think.
We must redistribute provinces in the Reich. Had we not such stark geograpical divisions amongst the Houses, then no rebellion would ever succeed. How would Herr Hummel have fared if Bruges had belogned to Bavaria? Or if Metz belonged to Franconia? We must overcome past sentiments and rebuild the Reich.
Maximilian begins to sit down, but hastily regains his feet.
And I also second Charter Ammendment 14.1.
12-15-2007, 00:41
Northnovas
Re: Imperial Diet VII
To address young Dieter's remarks.
I thank you Edmund for your input. I am not disputing Fritz's ability has a general he absolutely saved the Franconia House from collapsing with the enemies at the gates and internal strife. You know nothing of Duke Arnold's ability to support his nobles with the best troops. He defended the citadel in order for us to gain professional troops to continue the fight. He shared his wealth. He may not have been at all fighting but he was there for support. Without his leadership their would be no Austria!!
He lead through diplomacy with Edmund in Prague. It was not about having sufficient men it was about priorities. He also stayed out of the Swabian ordeal.
Andreas your question the plan of the Outremer is in the documentation of this Diet. The goal is protecting Jerusalem and we learned the hard way. Duke Arnold is the one to get us back on footing in the Outremer.
12-15-2007, 00:50
econ21
Re: Imperial Diet VII
Elberhard: I wish to publicly endorse King Matthias's revision of the Outremer Charter. Matthias was gracious enough to consult me on the draft and I agreed that it adapts my father's vision for Outremer to these more desperate times. I also congratulate Matthias on his great victory over the Byzantines. He is, of course, formally re-appointed as King of Outremer (or, if CA 14.2 passes, Viceroy).
I must inform the Electors that Duke Arnold is taking the opportunity provided by his breaking of the siege of Ragusa to conduct diplomatic negotiations with neighbouring powers. I believe he will return to the Diet on Monday.
Finally, I was remiss in not welcoming the many new Electors to their first Diet. I confess, there were so many new faces, I did not know all your names. Now, however, my wife ... I mean the scribes ... have provided me with a proper Electoral roll, so let me make good my earlier lack of manners.
Count Ehrhart Ruppel - I see in you the sword arm of the Duke of Swabia. You have already been of invaluable service against our enemies - both external and internal.
Count Ludwig von Bohmen - the return of a prodigal son is always most keenly felt.
Andreas von Salzgitter - may you grow to love the sun and sand of Outremer as much as I did. And if you happened to find any elephants, write me ... we can work something out.
Hugo von Holland - I was going to welcome any aid you could give us against the French, but your service in Outremer would be just as valued.
Count Dieter von Kassel - you have just attained full manhood and yet already your service to the Reich has been immeasurable.
Lukas Godwinson - Franconia must be reborn; it is well that we have young captains such as you to assist in the labour. Just watch those castle steps, they can be mighty slippery this time of year...
Count Lorenz Zirn - thank you for your services during the cataclysm and especially for assisting in the relief of Prague. Those Poles had me worried about Count Becker's militia army for a while...
Maxmillan von Hapsburg - I like the sound of your name, it seems to promise great things. Welcome, soldier! It is good to see you here.
Dieter von Essen - It is most welcome to see Austria emerge at last with so many prominent Electors. And congratulations, son! (sotto voce) At least that's one Elector who won't be sniffing round my daughter.
Hans von Bavaria - I heard you might be considering a life in the diplomatic service, but you made the smart choice, lad - diplomacy is for pussies. What House are you in, by the way?
@#$%^&!!!ing hell - you newcomers seem to outnumber us old timers! While you may make me feel old, your presence here makes the Reich young and strong! Welcome all!
12-15-2007, 00:58
gibsonsg91921
Re: Imperial Diet VII
In response to Dieter's charges and Count Zirn's responses, I would say that Arnold's duties in during the cataclysm were not cowardly or incapable in the least. I will grant that Arnold possibly would have attacked Bohemia if he could, I concede that he was wise not to when he would have damaged his loyal Counts. He is blameless as far as I can see.
Fritz is very noble as well, saving his rival Dieter from being outnumbered in Magdeburg, as well as slaying large numbers of our enemies, saving Franconia when all seemed lost. His fortitude kept all Duchies safer. There are countless heroes of the cataclysm, sung and unsung, and Fritz is certainly amongst those numbers. He can lead the Reich just as ably as Arnold.
This will be a very close race. If one does not come out as a far better candidate than the other I will abstain from voting to keep the peace.
12-15-2007, 01:04
deguerra
Re: Imperial Diet VII
After a long hard ride through French lines, Ludwig enters the Diet at Nürnberg. He looks around somewhat sheepishly at all the mighty men sitting in his midst, but there is a slight gleem of despise in his eyes as well
Mein Kaiser, I thank you for your kind remarks, and hope I prove as good a subject as you can wish for. I have lost my father some years ago, and it would do me honour to call you father, in symbol only of course, as you are father to all of your subjects, Dukes, Counts, Lords, Knights and Commoners.
I wish to briefly publically endorse the new charter for Outremer as well. I am in no position to do any more, but home that any small contribution I can give will help the most courageous and brave amongst us, who choose to fight for the Empire there.
I also fully agree that Antwerp should be incorporated into the Empire. Before now, I have considered it my duty to protect both Flemish cities, Bruges and Antwerp alike, but under the threat of French invasion I find myself incapable of guaranteeing the safety of Antwerps citizens, while I struggle to hold Bruges. I therefore fully endorse placing Antwerp into Eberhardts sheltering hands.
12-15-2007, 01:07
GeneralHankerchief
Re: Imperial Diet VII
Alexander Luther:
*Noticing Elberhard's empty chair, he smiles. It appears that the Kaiser has gone out for a quick rest. "So much the better," he mumbles.*
Electors! Good people of the Reich! It warms my heart to see you all here, in Nuremburg, safe and organized. Finally, after the all the turmoil of the past years, I do hope that we are ready to rebuild our great Empire once again.
I have been invited to the Diet here, albeit in a non-voting capacity (he glares at the empty chair) to present my views and hopefully bring a formal end to the religious conflict that threatened to tear what was left of the country apart.
However, it is clear to everyone that I am no longer a simple theologian. Ever since early on in Siegfried von Kastilien's fateful reign as Chancellor, I, for the most part, have been around military men, political men. Men who were concerned with far more than religion. These people had more temporal strategies, strategies for winning battles, wars, strategies on how to go about the little politics that took place during the Cataclysm. Electors, it is safe to say that I have picked up a little bit of their thought patterns and knowledge.
And from what knowledge I do have, one thing is clear: We need to unify, and we need to show the world that we are unified. We need to show the world that there is no longer a Swabian Civil War, which I regret to have ever been a part of. We need to show the world that, once again, our House Armies will rise up and threaten all of those unfriendly nations that border our superior one. We need to show the world that, once again, we are united under Kaiser and Chancellor!!!
*His eyes darken.*
Most notably, we need to show the Byzantines.
These traitorous scum betrayed us. We had a good alliance going for over a century. We had a mutual defense pact in Outremer that seemingly only we, thanks to Matthias Steffen, honored. We even had damn fool of a Kaiser, God rest his soul, ready to "rule" with a much older, wiser Emperor whispering in the shadows through his daughter. But it was not enough!
Electors, they wanted Italy. They wanted Outremer. They wanted Austria. And by all accounts, they cared little for merely taking over the place. When they invaded, they killed. Slaughtered thousands, tens of thousands of innocent women and children. Electors, this was by no means a simple war of conquest. This was a war of extermination, a war to wipe us off the face of the map for some unknown offense we committed to them. A war of extreme greed.
Well, I say it's payback time. We need to show them, militarily and morally, that we are the stronger. We need to show them that we can conquer them and still be civil to their innocents. We need to show them that you can never threaten the Reich and get away with it!
I propose, along with the support of Kaiser Elberhard himself, a resolution that will focus our efforts for the next several decades, on eradicating the Byzantine menace once and for all!!!
Charter Amendment 14.4: All Byzantine settlements are to be conquered and incorporated into the Reich by 1500. To demonstrate the moral superiority of the Reich, no captured Byzantine settlements may be exterminated and all loot from them must to be donated to the Papacy.
Yes, this war will be long. Yes, it will be costly, and in more ways than one. But, Electors, there are some things worth the cost. There are some things that nobody can forgive. Rome, Bologna, Venice, Antioch; they lie in ruins, nearly deserted except for the unholy barracks that house Satan's instruments of destruction.
The first steps to this are to, naturally, take back what is ours. But then, we shall continue. We shall keep striking, keep fighting, keep pushing until Greece, and Turkey, and Constantinople itself once again is taken!
And then, Electors, when the last city falls, the world will shake. The world will tremble at our power, our might, our wrath. And the world will know to never anger the Reich again!
Siegfried von Kastilien had a dream. He wanted the Roman Empire reunited. And he shall see his dream occur. We will be reunited - through conquest! Under the golden Eagle! Where every Byzantine, still living in prosperous cities that pay taxes to Rome, kneels before their true ruler: The Kaiser of the Reich!
Electors, what say you?!
12-15-2007, 01:12
Zim
Re: Imperial Diet VII
Andreas briefly has a deer in headlights expression, as if trying to both process the shock of being addressed by the Kaiser and the oddness of his words. He recovers and bows.
Mein Kaiser, thank you for the welcome. I miss the snow in my homeland, but otherwise I find the climate in Outremer quite pleasant. Should I see any elephants, I will report it to you immediately.
Andreas then bows respectfully to Zirn.
Lord Zirn, I am very pleased that both candidates are such clear supporters of Outremer. I do not doubt Duke Arnolds devotion to guarding Jerusalem. I only wished to draw specifics from them with my question. Perhaps it is an unreasonable question given that circumstances could change drastically and alter both the needs of the Reich as a whole and those of Outremer.
Count Ludwig receives a nod.
Hail Count Ludwig. It is a pleasure and privelege to meet the Count of my parents' adopted city. Would you happen to know them?
12-15-2007, 01:29
flyd
Re: Imperial Diet VII
Lukas Godwinson had been present in the Franconian section during most of the debate. He acknowledged the Kaiser with a nod after being addressed, and was red in the face and visibly shaking with rage during Luther's speech, but has not said anything.
12-15-2007, 01:51
Stuperman
Re: Imperial Diet VII
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignoramus
We must redistribute provinces in the Reich. Had we not such stark geograpical divisions amongst the Houses, then no rebellion would ever succeed. How would Herr Hummel have fared if Bruges had belogned to Bavaria? Or if Metz belonged to Franconia? We must overcome past sentiments and rebuild the Reich.
I do not understand...You advocate a policy that would provide support for such a rebel? This is nonsense! You advocate a policy that by your admission would make the riech weaker and more suseptable to attacks and brigandry. This after we have seen the devistation that such things can breed.
The Reich has lost almost half her territory in just 40 years, land that took more than 300 to amass, and we are by no means in the clear. We still have limited control in some provinces, and enemy armies run rampant on our lands. Gentlemen we still have much work to do before we can call ourselves true Germans and Guardians of the Church. Electors that encourage further weakening of the Reich should be dealt with harshly.
And Luther, We should conquor the Greeks, although I'd advocate more of a Kill them all Let God work it out Strategy.
12-15-2007, 02:09
Zim
Re: Imperial Diet VII
Herr Fredericus, I believe that Herr von Hapsburg is saying that in a Reich where political power is less regionalized, it would be harder for a rebel to muster the resources to cause her harm. If Bruges were Bavarian, A Swabian pretender like Hummel would have had trouble controlling them.
I disagree with his assessment. Having territories assigned to Houses almost randomly, without thought to giving well organized regions to the Dukes, would hurt the Reich, I think, and have made it all but impossible for the Dukes to have marshalled their forces against foreign invasion during the Cataclysm.
12-15-2007, 02:31
GeneralHankerchief
Re: Imperial Diet VII
Alexander Luther:
Count Erlach, as you have probably gleaned from my writings, I'm inclined to agree with your assessment. However, in the spirit of unity and reconciliation Kaiser Elberhard and I have agreed that the no extermination caveat be added.
I once again implore the Electors to support this important CA. We cannot let the Byzantines get away with what they have done.
12-15-2007, 02:48
Privateerkev
Re: Imperial Diet VII
Dieter von Essen perks up when he hears the Kaiser speak his name. But his cheeks go red when the Kaiser brings up Princess Eue.
Mein Kaiser!
I swear I would never do such a thing! I am a happily married man! All men wish they could be so lucky as I!
Dieter puffs out his chest and pounds it to accentuate his point. It is obvious that the young man is not used to such lewd language coming from the Emperor.
12-15-2007, 02:49
vpmd
Re: Imperial Diet VII
Hans, who has become more comfortable with his surroundins, stands upon being addressed by the Emperor.
Mein Kaiser, I belong to the noble house of Bavaria, as you may guess by my surname, which I hope I can represent well in the years to come.
Hans pauses and then adds as an afterthought;
I second Amendment 14.4. We must show the people the mercy the Greeks have not shown, particularly, for mighty and lasting empires are built on mercy, kindness, and trust of the people in the wisdom and nobility of their rulers, while massacres invariably are the downfall of the greatest empires.
Thinking this statement to be sufficient, Hans sits again.
12-15-2007, 03:20
Ramses II CP
Re: Imperial Diet VII
I second Charter Amendment 14.4 as well. The Byzantines are far from my House lands, but they are at the root of all the troubles that have bedeviled the Reich.
Furthermore, I wish to say that my run for Chancellor must not become divisive! I am deeply grateful for your support Dieter, which shows wisdom and loyalty in equal measures. Yet while I may question if Duke Arnold is the most qualified contender, I do not question whether or not he is capable of the role. It seems clear to me that I am best prepared to take on the role of Chancellor, but I am not prepared to win at any cost, and if I were to be victorious over the Duke I would ask that nothing during the run be done or said in my favor that might alienate or disaffect any of the noble Dukes of the four Houses.
Onto to further questions:
Prinz Peter, as any who have been by the local bar can attest I have been studying the economic and other governmental reports continuously since my arrival in Nuremburg. There are thousands of details I have yet to grasp, but my general policy shall be one of consolidation of resources and and a careful examination of expenditures. I am not yet prepared to issue a detailed plan, but be assured it is in the works.
Crusader von Salzgitter, as our private exchanges should make clear, my policy towards Outremer is unmitigated support. What the Holy Lands need, they shall get, so long as it is within the means of the Reich to provide. God has entrusted us a sacred burden there and it is not for men to decide to set it aside. I swear that even if Acre should somehow be lost the Reich's commitment to the Levant would be unwavering under me.
Sir von Hapsburg, if you will forgive me, your plan sounds like a guaranteed way to drive more chaos and disorder into the heart of the Reich. If not for your services to date I would question whether you have the best interests of the Empire at heart. I suggest you reconsider your statements and reissue them. If the power of the Kaiser had not been far too great the madness of the attempted Unification could never have even begun, and you now propose to entrust that position with even more far reaching power. What's more your curious version of events does little to match the facts of the matter, most specifically including the Byzantine kidnapping and subsequent years of torture experienced by Matthias Steffen. It was only the steadfast intelligence of a few loyal Germans which narrowly averted the utter destruction of our whole people. Give them your thanks for your life, and withhold your petty insults.
Father Luther your comments are insightful as ever. I am pleased you were able to attend the Diet and look forward to more discussion of the Byzantine problem with you.
If there are further questions I shall assemble my notes and attempt to answer them in a timely manner.
:egypt:
12-15-2007, 03:33
Ignoramus
Re: Imperial Diet VII
Von Hapsburg rises to feet, with disdain evident on his face.
We Hapsburgs thank no one for our protection. We are perfectly capable of defending our estates, even when others can't.
I find it alarming that you advocate sending more men to the Outremer, when we can't even recruit more soldiers at home. For the Reich to survive, we must leave the Outremer to fend for itself. King Matthias is quite capable of holding the citadel at Acre, and now that the English are settled in the Levant, we should not fear Greek subjectgation.
Von Hapsburg resumes his seat.
12-15-2007, 03:57
GeneralHankerchief
Re: Imperial Diet VII
Alexander Luther:
I disagree. If we continue to support Outremer then we open up a legitimate second front against the Byzantines. The Levant was the former location of some of our most advanced troop training centers. If we can get, say, Adana back then we can put pressure on the Greeks from the East as well as the West.
12-15-2007, 04:10
Ignoramus
Re: Imperial Diet VII
Not bothering to stand up, von Hapsburg leans forward with a serious expression on his face.
The age of crusades has passed. While I, as any good Catholic, am glad to see the Holy City in Christian hands once more, I am not blind to the dangers of the Reich at home.
Should we strengthen the enemies of Christendom? It is true that the Greeks could hardly be called Christians, yet even they are more tolerable than the infidel.
12-15-2007, 04:24
vpmd
Re: Imperial Diet VII
Overhearing von Hapsburg speak, Hans von Bavaria reply.
Perhaps I am too unfamiliar with the customs of the diet, but those words have a faint ring of treason to me. Forgive me if I am mistaken, but you seem to suggest that we should abandon a great opportunity to wipe out the hated Byzantines. Why should we show an ounce of mercy to them, when they could not find any mercy for the innocent people of half a dozen of our cities? They are vile and wicked and are preferable to none.
12-15-2007, 04:29
GeneralHankerchief
Re: Imperial Diet VII
Alexander Luther:
Tolerable?
Tolerable??!?!
With all due respect, von Hapsburg, where have you been the past several years?
These... Byzantines lied to us. Betrayed us. They launched a full-scale invasion of Italy and Outremer, exterminating every city in their path. Murdering innocent women and children by the thousands. They sought to have every single solitary settlement in the Four Houses and Outremer burned to the ground! They sought to make the entire Western half of Europe a hollow ruin of itself!
Tolerable?!
No, von Hapsburg. The great Muslim Empires, worshipping an unholy figure, have not wrought this much combined destruction upon Christendom in their collective centuries of existence than the Byzantines have done in a few short years. They must pay.
12-15-2007, 04:39
Ignoramus
Re: Imperial Diet VII
Von Hapsburg rises to his feet.
Hyprocrite! Did not your words tear the Reich assunder? You caused the the Greeks to commit these atrocities, and you alone. You stirred up Peter von Kastilien and urged him to sack Constantinople. We could hardly expect mercy from the Greeks after that.
Your followers included Dietrich von Dassel and Wolfgang Hummel, both of whom wrecked Swabia and have brought the Reich to a precarious position.
You Lutherans are the curse of the Reich; we would be well rid of you.
Von Hapsburg resumes his seat.
12-15-2007, 04:48
flyd
Re: Imperial Diet VII
Unable to remain quiet, Lukas Godwinson stands and speaks.
The Greeks were not the only ones to have wrought destruction. Internal fighting and...
Godwinson looks at Luther
... Religious conflict have claimed as many, if not more, lives than the actions of the Greeks. Yet, we have agreed to put that aside, and rightly so. And if old grudges against our own can be put aside, perhaps other forms of blind hatred can take a rest too.
Yes, what has been lost, must be regained. What is a threat must be eliminated. That is clear. But to call for a war of conquest for... revenge, at this hour... is... is...
Godwinson starts to lose his composure. If he could, he would hate Luther to death! He regains some composure, and finishes.
Well, Mr. Luther. You were allowed to speak freely in this Diet, the least you could have done is left your violent fanaticism at the door.
12-15-2007, 04:53
Zim
Re: Imperial Diet VII
A curious expression falls over Andreas' face at the mention of religious conflicts.
Herr von Hapsburg, while I do not share the religious...sympathies that Herr Luther professes, I see little point in dredging up religious conflicts that have finally ended while the Reich is imploding. Luther has expressed regret over events in Swabia, and I was in Bruges when I saw the fruits of his penance. He helped raise the army used to free that city from French rule. The War of the Reformation has ended, and guilt can be assigned for it after the Reich recovers.
The Byzantines have shown no respect for civilian life, exterminating many of the largest cities in the Reich. I, for one, would hardly consider them "tolerable". Even now they march south on Acre, intending to take it and thereby control the Pope. This would be both a blasphemy and a danger to the Reich. If moral or religious reasons are not enough for you, surely the security of the Reich is a good enough reason to support the project of Outremer.
12-15-2007, 04:56
Ramses II CP
Re: Imperial Diet VII
The War of Reformation was explicitly launched by the actions of a German who supported the Unification effort and returned to the Reich with the intent of making war on Father Luther and his disciples. History will not be lied about in these chambers! No one can force another to commit an atrocity, no more than I can force you to say such foolish things as to undermine your own cause. You do that on your own, just as the Byzantines exterminated our cities and slaughtered our citizens on their own.
Father Luther spoke the truth, revealed the Byzantine treachery, and on hearing it discussed openly the Greeks advanced their plan to destroy the Reich. It is only because of his foresight that the Reich still exists to this day.
Ask yourselves, gentlemen, what contributions have you made to the Reich, aside from slandering her supporters and applauding her butchers?
:egypt:
12-15-2007, 05:26
flyd
Re: Imperial Diet VII
I should clarify my position. I do not care to blame either party for the war, or otherwise engage in historical discussion. What I take issue with is certain persons who bring up their own personal political and religious agendas at this time. Luther proposes that we conquer the entire Greek empire by 1500. Yes, we get it, he hates the Greeks. We've known that for a while now. What he fails to realize is that there may not even be a Reich by 1400, much less by 1500. He brings polarization into this body, when it is of critical importance that the soldiers of the Reich discuss in detail how we are to defend our homelands, which are still under great threat from all sides. I am interested in hearing that; I am not interested in hearing about how much Luther hates the Greeks.
Well, I shall retire for the night. Hopefully, tomorrow we shall have soldiers discussing important military matters.
12-15-2007, 06:00
gibsonsg91921
Re: Imperial Diet VII
Peace, friends. A united Reich is a strong Reich.
The newcomer Lukas Godwinson is correct. Welcome to the Franconian benches.
While I am not a closet Lutheran and I believe strongly that the Greeks should be rid of in this world, we must consolidate our own borders before we make our rash vengeance.
Many years ago, I did what I felt should be done and left Franconia with the intention of sacking Constantinople with my best friend Tancred von Tyrolia. I stand by the fact that what I did was necessary, but I admit I my actions have much consequence. Hopefully in this Diet session my rashness should be repaid in the blood of our foes.
Not the blood of our friends. This next twenty years, we shall reclaim what was lost!
Our enemies will tremble at the thunder of our cavalry and the blast of our trumpets!
We shall be victorious!
And then, we will conquer the Greeks!
12-15-2007, 06:03
GeneralHankerchief
Re: Imperial Diet VII
Alexander Luther:
Squire Godwinson, you question the timing of the Charter Amendment proposed by myself and the Kaiser. You are not sure whether this Diet Session of 1340 is the proper moment to declare to the world that we are ready to strike back.
Why not? Clearly, the first steps to putting the Greeks in their rightful place once and for all is taking back what was once ours. After the stunning victories wrought by Bavaria in recent months, the Byzantines are now holding a defensive position in Italy.
The only way that these people would threaten the Reich's very existence now is if we let this line stand and allow them to reinforce themselves from their remaining Italian territories and Greece. Now, they are on the defensive. Why should we not begin the reconquest now?
12-15-2007, 06:14
GeneralHankerchief
Re: Imperial Diet VII
Alexander Luther:
*nodding to the scribes*
Apologies for speaking twice in turn, but I request that on the official list of the proposed edicts and Amendments that Kaiser Elberhard's name be listed under "Proposed" for CA 14.4. He was just as much of an architect of it as I was.
12-15-2007, 07:01
Privateerkev
Re: Imperial Diet VII
Dieter just waits as everyone is yelling and insulting each other. He waits for a quiet moment and then raises his hand. When everyone turns and stares at the young man, Dieters asks plainly,
CA 14.4 dictates that we must turn all loot from captured Byzantine settlements to the Pope.
But... what if we need the money?
12-15-2007, 10:29
econ21
Re: Imperial Diet VII
Elberhard: Let me clarify my position on CA14.4. I do second it. Alexander Luther approached me with a draft proposing simply the conquest of Byzantium. Like Lukas Godwinson, my first reaction was dismay at the prospect of extending and amplifying the current bloody war we are experiencing. Even to this day, I confess I will not be heart broken if the proposal fails. It is, in part, to provide an outlet for the energies of our many young Electors and if they are content with a more pacific Reich, then I - as an old man - will not send them off to war.
However, you will note the extremely long deadline for this conquest. It need not interfere with the proper defence of the Reich or imply over-extending ourselves. Think on it - 1500 AD. You may almost consider it an aspiration.
I insisted on a clause banning extermination of conquered cities, otherwise we would become no better than those damnable sons of whores. Indeed, it was Byzantine extermination of our major cities that convinced me of the need to remove once and for all the threat that they pose to the Reich.
As to the requirement to donate all loot to the Papacy, that is to ensure that our new Greek subjects recognise that we act from the highest motives. We will not ransack their cities as freebooters and if some of generals are unable to restrain their men, the Reich will make full reparations to the Papacy for such dreadful acts.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
OOC: CA 14.4 is partly "something to do" - a sort of glorious achievement that we can work towards for the rest of the game. If the majority of people don't want it, that's fine by me. The no loot clause is partly to stop us blitzing the AI too easily. Sacking is extraordinarily lucrative and if we restore the Reich to 30+ provinces, we will already be rolling in cash.
On another matter, I know I agreed to let the past be the past, but yet again I must challenge Fritz von Kastilien's absurd representation of history. He sees nothing, learns nothing and knows nothing. Jan von Hamburg was not crusading against Lutherans. In Swabia, Lutherans were only ever pawns in a secular struggle for power. I humbly suggest Fritz talk to his brother and fellow Lutheran Peter for a proper appreciation of the relation between Lutherism, the War of in Swabia and indeed another most grave matter that we have corresponded privately about.
The War of Reformation was an unintended byproduct of a grab for power by men who used Luther's teachings for their own ends. The late Jan von Hamburg, like myself, need make no apologies for defending the rightful Duke of Swabia - any Duke alive today would rightly expect such support from all the Diet if a rebel tried to kill them and usurp their position. When it comes to defending the Charter from overthrow by force of arms, one cannot be neutral.
Finally, I second Charter Amendment 14.3. Discussion has focussed on von Hapsburg's off the cuff opinions of the territorial coherence of Duchies, however, the amendment says nothing of that. It says that a Duke may be replaced if he loses the confidence of most of his Counts. I see some virtue in this. Consider, again, the Swabian civil war. The worst thing Hummel did was show that rebellion was possible - nay, not just possible but that a nobody could by force of arms march in and seize the Citadel of his Duke! Hopefully, Hummel's eventual fate - and that of von Dassel - will give would-be rebels pause for thought about the likely effect of rebellion on one's life expectancy. But the point remains - Electors may rebel and in rebelling gravely weaken the Reich.
CA 14.3 provides an alternative way of settling grievances. I cannot pretend that - had CA 14.3 existed - I would have forced my brother to step down in favour of Hummel or von Dassel. However, it might have provided an opportunity to intercede and perhaps reach an understanding not unlike that which Duke Arnold negotiated with Count Becker. I see CA 14.3 as strengthening the Reich, not weakening it.
12-15-2007, 10:45
Privateerkev
Re: Imperial Diet VII
Dieter gulps before speaking after the Kaiser,
With all due respect my Kaiser, but the Reich is broke. And part of the reason why it is broke is because of the Byzantines. But they are not only our attackers, they are our neighbors. It is their settlements that are closest to some of our fronts.
A clause to demand the handover of loot hamstrings us right when we need the money most! How else are we going to get out of a deficit? I understand the spirit of the CA and see some merit in it. But why limit ourselves when we basically need to go all out?
If we are truly going to completely cut off a possible supply of money, I implore the Diet to think of some other way to make up the short-fall.
But I say lets fund our rebuilding from the coffers of our enemies. I see a certain symmetry...
But that's just my opinion sir...
Fearing he said too much too forcefully, Dieter yields the floor and heads to that new tavern he keeps hearing about.
12-15-2007, 11:11
OverKnight
Re: Imperial Diet VII
Matthias listens to the debate in the Diet. He is pleased at the Kaiser's endorsement, and smiles when Karl Zirn speaks. When Fritz von Kastilien mentions his torture, a hand unconsciously comes up to the patch covering his ruined socket. Taking notice, Matthias puts it back down. His expression grows grim at von Hapsburg's "The age of Crusaders has passed" comment.
Rising, he addresses the Diet.
I thank those of you who have spoken in support of the proposed revisions. As for the one person who has spoken against it.
He fixes a one-eyed stare at Maximilian.
It saddens me that you were named after the patron Saint of Outremer. I ask for no more men from Europe for Outremer. If a few young nobles wish to join my cause, I cannot stop them. As for soldiers, we are capable of recruiting what we need in Acre.
I do not ask for special treatment for the Kingdom. All I ask from either candidate for Chancellor is a fighting chance. I understand that every part of the Reich faces challenges and resources are scarce. In fact in the battles I fought recently, I aimed to conserve my men, as I realize reinforcement may not come even with central authority restored.
A detailed reading of the proposed revision will reveal that Outremer is only due one army as long as it remains under three territories. After that, it would be two, the same as the Duchies receive and as the Kingdom has been granted in the past.
Matthias pauses.
Speaking of new Crusaders, I am heartened to hear that Hugo de Cervole and Dieter von Essen wish to take the Cross. But I must add my own advice to that of my friend Karl. The journey is long, the outcome is uncertain and there may not be Counties or commands waiting for you when you land. I wish to make Andreas a Count, but I cannot as long as I have only Acre. I wish to give Andreas an army, but I cannot divide our forces just yet in face of the large Greek armies. Also, with regards to Swabia, one of her noblemen is already in my service, and I do not wish to deprive the Duchy of another General in these troubled times.
I know such material things are of little concern when compared to the spiritual rewards of Crusading, but they should be considered. I would advise both of you to speak with your Dukes, consider their counsel and perhaps gain some battle experience before coming to Outremer. This is not a refusal, I will never turn away the faithful, but I do not have much to offer new arrivals just yet.
If you do come, you have my gratitude, but consider yourselves forewarned.
Matthias again pauses.
As for some of the legislation that has been proposed. I find CA 14.3 an invitation to mob rule. Each House should be able to solve any problems internally. I might reconsider if majority was changed to a super-majority of two thirds.
I agree with the spirit of CA 14.4, as I have good reason to hate the Greeks, but I find the terms of it too binding. The amendment will, in my opinion, require too much of a focus on them. The Reich has other enemies, we should leave ourselves the flexibility to deal with all of them. Also, the Church's financial standing is better than our own at this time. We will need florins to rebuild, and I believe this amendment requires too much money to go to the Pope. Again we should have flexibility in how we proceed in the future.
I will state that any lost Imperial lands I reconquer will be occupied, not exterminated or sacked. I wish to liberate Antioch and Adana, not destroy them.
Thank you my lords.
12-15-2007, 13:23
_Tristan_
Re: Imperial Diet VII
Hugo von Holland stands and bows deeply at the Kaiser on hearing his name spoken aloud.
Mon Empereur, I thank you for your welcoming speech.
I take this opportunity to point out that I have received news from my network of agents still in that country.
Our cities there are under threat and though I long to follow in the footsteps of my templar brothers and defend Outremer, I think that my skills would be put to better use in defending the Reich from the French.
Bowing at Count Matthias Steffen, Hugo goes on.
Thus, if Count Steffen allows, I will meet him in Outremer once the French threat has been dealt with.
I know I'm not an Imperial Knight yet but I would request the command of a small force of men and lead them against the French General Roger de Mauchaut who my informers tell me is out in the open with men in his retinue. I have a personal revenge to take on that man and will in doing so further the interests of the Reich.
I eagerly wait on your authorizing such a foray on French soil.
Hugo then sits down, visibly content to have made this point.
12-15-2007, 15:11
vpmd
Re: Imperial Diet VII
Hans von Bavaria has been silent, but now feels that he should put forth his opinion on 4.3:
With all due respect to the Kaiser, I believe 4.3 will bring chaos to the Reich. It can just as easily be a route for, say, power hungry electors and vengeful Emperors to depose a noble Duke. The bad effects outweigh the good.
I also disagree with Herr Matthias's assessment of 4.4. We will be dead and our sons will be dead, and many of their sons will be old men by the time we need to take the last Byzantine city. There is plenty of time.
12-15-2007, 15:43
gibsonsg91921
Re: Imperial Diet VII
Lords, I have here the new arrangements for Franconia, which I shall now make public.
Three cities remain in our control - they are the capital Frankfurt, Hamburg, and Magdeburg. Frankfurt shall be under my control. Magdeburg will continue to have Dieter Bresch as her able Count. Hamburg shall be run by the hero returning from Outremer, Dieter von Kassel.
Four cities are incorporated yet not under our control. As they return under our power, Thorn shall be given to Tancred von Tyrolia, Stettin to Fritz von Kastilien, and Krakow to Lukas Godwinson. Breslau shall remain under my authority while there is no one else to govern it.
Also, as I shall now take command of the Prinz's Army, the First Franconian Household Army, known as the Prussian Army, shall be commanded by my brother Fritz von Kastilien. It shall be stationed to defend Hamburg from the north and east. The Second Franconian Household Army, or the Saxon Army, shall be commanded by Dieter Bresch. Its zone of control shall be Magdeburg and east.
With the Prinz's Army, I shall attempt to bring our borders back to our normal strength as well as assist any Duchy that is in dire need.
Thank you.
12-15-2007, 18:20
Ramses II CP
Re: Imperial Diet VII
My Kasier I truly wish that I had the same starry eyed optimism about the pure and honest motives of the Exterminators of Rome that you have managed to find, but I see the world as it is. The Byzantines lured the Reich into a hideously unfavorable agreement by corrupting our then Kaiser, my brother. When we had entangled ourselves too deeply to escape they murdered our Emperor, my brother, your brilliant'I have other suspects' rebuttal aside, and they kidnapped Matthias Steffen as the first steps in their plan to destroy us. Subsequently they have stolen the Reich's treasury and exterminated several German cities. The idea that they can be defended in these very chambers, even somehow held up as more pure than we, is repugnant and intolerable.
It was only the valiant and necessary actions of a few, in defiance of you and your insistence on carrying forward the mad plan of Unification, which prevented the Reich from falling, in the space of a few bare years, from the greatest nation of Europe to the lapdog of the Greeks. I myself was unable to take that action, trapped as I was by my foolishly optimistic loyalty to you, my Kaiser. Seeing the deaths of tens of thousands of my fellow Germans in the years since has washed away my stupidity. I regret to see that you have not yet been cleansed.
In any event I note that again you do not dispute the fact that Jan von Hamburg, your fellow in supporting the Unification, returned to the Reich with the sole goal of killing his fellow Germans. In that he succeeded beyond any scope he might have imagined, as well over a hundred thousand German souls fled this mortal coil at his instigation.
That he or his actions could be defended is similarly astonishing to the reverence with which you still speak of the Byzantines. Hapsburg's mindless statements can be excused as his inexperience, for yours... I will refuse to speculate out of respect for the office you hold.
Prinz Peter, your redistribution of territories appears quite ideal, however as I have conceded my failures in the governance of Stettin it may be best to assign me elsewhere. I will discuss the matter with you personally at some later date.
:egypt:
OOC: Just as an FYI, Econ, I know Fritz isn't 'right' but his version of events, setting aside OOC information, matches what a good Luthern with his knowledge would think, I believe. Plus it's much, much more fun this way. :laugh4:
12-15-2007, 18:24
Ramses II CP
Re: Imperial Diet VII
One further note, regarding CA 14.4, if nothing else it will stand as a public declaration of our intent to redeem ourselves against our greatest foes. The time frame is so large it may well be that none of us here live to see it accomplished, so I do not believe it will affect, in any way, the funding or commission of our other wars and reclamations of territory.
:egypt:
12-15-2007, 18:28
gibsonsg91921
Re: Imperial Diet VII
I will concede your points, Fritz, but leave Jan von Hamburg at peace. He returned to defend those loyal to the Reich, as did Elberhard and Dieter according to my assumptions. Let him rest in peace!
Those who will not rest in peace, are the Byzantines. What is in the past is over, do not cast the finger of blame any more. We are all to blame.
We shall drive them into the Black Sea! The waters will be choked with purple armor and red blood, and with their deaths prosperity shall return.
12-15-2007, 19:50
Stuperman
Re: Imperial Diet VII
Perhaps this:
If a Byzantine held city is a former part of the Riech then the richest Greeks will have their assets siezed, and be made examples (OOC: Sacked, possible exception Rome) all other Greek cities are to be occupied with as little destruction as possible to show our moral superiority. With Possibility the same type of agreement on the French Front as well?
12-15-2007, 20:19
Ramses II CP
Re: Imperial Diet VII
Fritz von Kastilien stands with a momentary look of pain.
I would warn electors from believing that the sack of a formerly German city can be limited to damaging only it's occupiers. This sounds quite promising and even just, but it works quite differently. I would suggest nearly the reverse, that we peacefully occupy the territories which were formerly owned and still have large German populations while sacking those cities in which the perfidious foe alone lives.
If we are to demonstrate moral superiority, however, we should, as suggested in the CA, refrain from sacking any of their cities.
:egypt:
12-15-2007, 21:28
_Tristan_
Re: Imperial Diet VII
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuperman
With Possibility the same type of agreement on the French Front as well?
Count Erlach, the French will get no quarters from me, whatever wrath I might incur in those chambers...
12-15-2007, 21:55
Ferret
Re: Imperial Diet VII
It is good to see a change in ehaviour Fritz, I was shocked to discover the news of Stettin being sacked by yourself and it is nice to know that such atrocities will not take place again, at least by you. We do not need to take venegence on any citizens, especially not our own. War is a soldiers proffesion and they should be punished for any wrong-doings, not innocent bystanders.
12-15-2007, 22:50
Zim
Re: Imperial Diet VII
Andreas waits for a lull in the conversation about the start of the Cataclysm, then rises and clears his throat. He has a paper in front of him, and as he talks it is obvious he is reciting a speech from it.
Excuse me, fellow Electors. I have just recently been honored with the responsibility to make a list of questions for our candidates for Chancelor. A few days hence, this list will be used to interview them, enabling the Electors to make an informed decision for who should lead the Reich. Should you have any questions in mind for one or both candidates, please inform me.
Looking nervous at what kind of reaction his speech might engender, Andreas sits down.
12-15-2007, 23:39
Privateerkev
Re: Imperial Diet VII
Dieter is sitting in his chair rubbing his temples. It is clear he is under the weather. For what seems like an eternity, he finally speaks when he gets enough saliva in his mouth to wet it.
Now we're attempting to legislate morality? Didn't Jan von Hamburg try that once at the 1260 Diet? It didn't work then and I don't think it would work now.
No, take the sacking and exterminating clauses out of 14.4. Let us make those decisions for ourselves. Like we even need a peace of paper to demonstrate our moral superiority. Who are we trying to convince that we're superior to the Greeks? Ourselves?
In fact, take the timetable out of 14.4 as well. Wars on timetables never work out well. If we wish to legislate this war against the Greeks, lets at least do it through edicts which are more... measured.
Come to think of it, there is no real reason for 14.4... at all. None. We're already at war with the Greeks so it is really kind of redundant once you take out the hamstringing clauses.
I say that every Duke/King with Greek territories in their areas of responsibility should put forth edicts to take Greek settlements this term, if they want to. What happens to those settlements is more up to the Lords who will govern them.
12-16-2007, 01:05
GeneralHankerchief
Re: Imperial Diet VII
Alexander Luther:
*softly chuckling*
Young von Essen, just because we are at war with a country does not mean that we automatically finish it off. Look at France, Poland, Hungary, Sicily, Egypt, and Venice. Venice especially. We've been fighting against these people since Sigismund der Stolze was Chancellor. We let 'em up after we knocked them off the Adriatic, and look what happens.
The Byzantines do not deserve this type of leniency. They must be eliminated.
12-16-2007, 01:06
econ21
Re: Imperial Diet VII
Elberhard: But of course, Dieter von Essen - I see now you are right. We must legislate amorality! We must let our generals run freely around, exterminating at will like beasts! Damn it, man - why stay in Outremer and serve the cross? Go further east and find some of those @#$%^&!!!ing Mongols to serve. I think you would find their way of warfare more to your taste!
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Note 14.4 does not require occupation, so no one will be forced to pick up chivalry points. Nor does it rule out execution of prisoners, so generals fighting Byzantines can still easily acquire dread points.
It is not a matter of requiring a piece of paper to show our moral superiority over the Byzantines. It is a matter of being moral. If we slaughter civilians - unarmed men, women and children - then we are are committing a crime so foul, where we stand in relation to the Byzantines, the Mongols or anyone else is irrelevant. We are going to hell, whether alone or in their company.
Jan von Hamburg only failed in 1260 because the flower of chivalry was waning in the Reich. I had hoped that the blood and chaos of the cataclysm might bring us back on a more righteous and ordered path. Luther and I reached an accommodation that we believed could satisfy both those like him who earnestly desire the anhilation of Byzantim and those like myself who are keen that we observe the most minimum standard of decency. If we all wish to run off like wolves, and fight our own little wars, then we are not a united Reich that aspires to lead Christiandom. We are just a gaggle of self-serving warlords.
As for Fritz's absurd statement that Jan von Hamburg came back to the Reich because he wanted to kill Germans, Jan came back to uphold the rule of law. Suppose villains comes into your neighbour's house and try to kill him, to steal his possessions. Would you do your duty and come to your neighbour's aid? If yes, then beware! For Fritz von Kastilien would accuse you of just wanting to kill Germans! Jan started no war. War was started by Hummel and then by Dietrich. Jan marched only to defend the rightful Duke of Swabia.
And for all his attempted re-invention of history, Fritz also knows that the war with Byzantium was started by the sack of Constantinople - painful as admitting that culpability may be to many here. Much easier to forget about history, to blame outside "corruption", to defame the dead, even to malign our own Kaisers than to accept that we too are not without sin.
12-16-2007, 01:28
Privateerkev
Re: Imperial Diet VII
Dieter comes back into the Diet just in time to feel the stinging rebuke from the Kaiser.
My Kaiser, I fear you misunderstand me. I am not the sort to exterminate. I do however sometimes see the necessity to sack. We need money. And to sign something that "mandates" that we give up money we need seems unwise.
But I also hesitate at telling others what to do. I rather try to lead by example. I follow the chivalrous path because it feels right and I serve the Lord. Others may feel differently. Who am I to tell them what to do? I will live my life the best I can. If someone happens to draw inspiration out of that, that is great.
But I fear we get in trouble when we dictate through laws what people can and can not do.
With all due respect, I think you are too used to arguing with your political opponents. Not everyone who disagrees with you is automatically a butcher.
I don't have to prove my morality to you or anyone by signing a piece of paper. I've earned it through my actions on the battlefield! (OOC: has fair-in-rule trait)
Fearing going too far, Dieter sits.
12-16-2007, 01:30
GeneralHankerchief
Re: Imperial Diet VII
Alexander Luther:
Essen, do you want the Byzantines gone or not?
12-16-2007, 01:40
Privateerkev
Re: Imperial Diet VII
Of course I do. But I rather leave tactical and strategic decisions to the men on the ground. The Dukes and King have a better view of their corner of the war and can make decisions that are right for their situation. Trust in them to put forth edicts that will dictate measured and appropriate moves that fit with our available resources.
I'm a soldier and an officer. I know first hand that war is better fought by giving a measure of initiative to your local commanders. Study the Austrian front and what has gone on there for the last few years and you will see a good example. Duke Arnold was given command of the area, he delegated to local lords, who then delegated farther down. Central decisions were made from up high but they took local considerations into account.
Your CA threatens that. It basically legislates war with no flexibility. Just let us fight the war and support edicts that direct us towards recapturing territory.
If you are so concerned with the Reich fighting the Byzantines Father Luther, I suggest you join the army and help us fight them!
Dieter pounds the table to make his point.
12-16-2007, 01:42
GeneralHankerchief
Re: Imperial Diet VII
Alexander Luther:
Do not lecture me on how to fight a war. I have seen as many campaigns drawn up as you. All that this CA does is say that Byzantium must cease to exist by 1500. That's it.
If you want to see things done in detail, then I suggest you use your personal Edict and actually do something about it.
12-16-2007, 01:51
Privateerkev
Re: Imperial Diet VII
Oh and how much actual fighting have you done Father Luther?
Dieter points at his scar.
Unlike you, I have actually been fighting for the Reich. Like all of the other nobles here. Your just a spectator.
Hell, rumor has it that you ran like a scared little girl from Bern.
Speaking of Bern, how many Byzantines were there anyways? Oh wait, there weren't any!
You were too busy preaching war against Catholics to be bothered fighting the Orthodox.
So don't come in here and lecture soldiers how to fight a war. I'm only 16 and I've fought more war than you've watched from the sidelines.
As for my edict, I will not use it for such a thing. It is Duke Arnold's decision on what settlements get taken in Austria and it is only proper that such a decision be left to him, since he is Duke of that realm. When he returns, he will tell us what we are retaking and when. If he needs my edict to support his strategy, then I will gladly give it.
The same for Outremer. King Matthias is in a far better position to know what settlements to take back than I am. I would not dare to be so presumptuous in second-guessing him.
So Father Luther, sit back, and watch the proceedings. Soon you'll be gone and we can go about the business of actually governing without having to worry about our proceedings being colored by your religious fanaticism.
12-16-2007, 01:52
econ21
Re: Imperial Diet VII
Elberhard: Essen, it is you who misunderstand me. I have not called you a butcher or chastised you for wanting to exterminate anyone. I am criticising your absurd view that laws should not tell people what they should or should not do. What the @#$%^&!!! else does a law do?
What would your laws look like?
Thou shalt not murder.
Well, ok, if you really want to, I guess that would be fine.
But I really, really hope you don't and instead are inspired by the radiant light that shines out of my arse!
YOU may not tell people what to do. But the Diet does. Our armies are OUR armies. They are not those of the generals who happen to command them. If they slaughter and rape, then the Reich slaughters and rapes. And we, the Diet, bear full moral responsibility for what is done by our soldiers, in our name and with our florins.
And for @#$%^&!!!s sake stop taking about pieces of paper that prove morality or I am going to have to add them to my copies of Fritz's proclamation in the smallest room of the Diet. We are talking about Edicts and Charter Amendments here, not pieces of paper. If you dismiss them as mere pieces of paper, then go back to the Tavern and leave the legislation to men who respect it for the sacred authority it embodies!
Oh, @#$%^&!!! it. I am through with this. I am off to the Tavern myself.
12-16-2007, 01:58
Privateerkev
Re: Imperial Diet VII
Satisfied that he just gave the uppity priest a whumpin, Dieter realized that arguing with the Kaiser would be pointless.
You hear Dieter muttering something about "well he can just shove his pieces of paper up his arse then..."as he heads to the tavern.