What is the best Phalanx unit?

Hello

I've been playing as Carthage (old time favourite faction ever who I haven't played in about a year) and I think that the Elite African Pikeman are probably the best phalanx unit I have come accross.

No Roman, Iberian or occasional Greek can get through their spears and they are very good at clearing the way into the town square. Also if needs be they are more then capable then storming walls and acting as very good sword men (they really showed up the Heavy Iberian Infantry in about the 3rd seige of Arse) who can beat principes.

Anyway I am not a person who looks at stats but having placed all phalanx factions apart from the Ptolomies and Selucids and I was just wondering if anyone knew who was the best phalanx and if I was right or not.

Thank you for your time.

Elite African Phalanx is a good unit for sure.
However, i am playing as Romani and i have been fighting with Hellenic factions and Carthage.

And i have to say Makedonian Reformed Elite Phalanx is the best phalanx unit i have ever seen as enemy. They could kick ass:smash:

The various elite phalanxes are not that far apart. I think functionally they're pretty much the same -- they can all stop/pin anything, and killing isn't their real job (that's for their flanking partners).

The Carthaginian Sacred Band are phenomenally armoured, but more of a showpiece unit (small numbers, limited recruiting).

Of the phalanxes you might see used substantially in a war, the Seleucid Agryaspides (Hellenic Elite Phalanx) have the best stats of any phalanx I've noticed. Though whilst I was playing Pontos the Ptolemaic elites gave me more trouble, perhaps because they seem to come in twos and threes whilst the Seleucids are spread thinner.

Mac reformed phalanx/KH reformed phalanx since they both are really widespread and pretty tough.

The latter is basically copy-pezhetairoi from my experience, and the latter is simply not as good as Argyraspides.

I think Argyraspides at least if you play as the AS, are the very best as a unit of the entire game: relatively wide AOR (Alexandreia, Antiocheia, Charax, Babylon, Seleukeia in the East + East shore of the Aigean, and Pella + Demetrias in the west) and basically just as capable as any other elite phalanx.

But the absolute best are the Misthophoroi Phalangitai: they are extremely widespread and very capable too.

If were talking about a phalanx unit with a relatively wide AOR, then i agree with TA. However, if were talking about just one unit regardless of recruitment and just pure stats....IIRC, The Chaeonion Agema may very well be the best. Top 5 for sure.....( Unless i'm completely confusing their stat line with another unit...:dizzy2: )

[I didn't see the other topic about underrated units, which is what my comment would be more relevant towards. Going to move the relevant sections about Baktria's levy phalanx over there]

In general, the best phalanx units to me are also the most versatile. Which is why I really want a phalanx with AP secondary weapons, like axe, with that .165 lethality rating. A lethality of .1 or .13 is just too low. They can't kill fast enough to serve as flankers. So I can only use the elite phalanxes to hold the middle or during sieges (which is not the best place to use them in my view). That is why I mention the Pandotapoi Phalangitai from Baktria and the Alpine Phalanx from Helvetti. The Helvetti phalanx wasn't too bad either, since their armor was 13 upgraded. Didn't need to send back for reinforcements much when I was conquering Iberia with one of them in an army. They were great for defending river crossings. Total kill fest.

The mercenary phalanxes were a god send playing as a Roman, btw. They had problems, of course, but logistically they were almost perfect. If you did what I did, which was to transfer men from wounded units to another wounded unit to bring it back up to strength, they were. Garrisoning the mercenary phalanx (useless with only 20-50 men) back behind the front lines somewhere kept them safe. Then it only takes bringing them out a short way to resupply my main field army. Nice staying power, only problem is, it is rather expensive and the mercenary regeneration rate is rather slow. Not feasible unless your economy can support around 30k per season profits. Less if you are willing to let your building ques go idle while conquering, which I never was willing to do.

There was a tactic I sometimes used, but didn't have enough phalanx units to truly test it out as it should have been. I would sometimes take my phalanx out of formation, send them in as infantry, then activate the phalanx formation This would cause them to bring out the long spears and then sweep left/right while attacking the enemy. This caused some funny gyrations in the enemy infantry, but only if the enemy weren't many in numbers. I was wondering if this tactic was more effective if you used more phalanxes together.

I agree, the Elite African Pikemen seem to be the best unit in the game. I had them completely waste my Argyraspides without even breaking a sweat.

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Originally Posted by MarcusAureliusAntoninus

I agree, the Elite African Pikemen seem to be the best unit in the game. I had them completely waste my Argyraspides without even breaking a sweat.

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I pwned one unit of elite African Pikemen with one unit of mercenary hellenic pikemen + 44 (1/3 unit) Cretan Archers shooting at them from behind. :p

https://img441.imageshack.us/img441/816/pwnlb9.th.jpg

I do recall seeing a Ptolemaic elite phalanx surrounded by three Cats from Baktria. The phalanx didn't break even when they were down to 22 men.

That kind of dependability is nice to have. High morale and disciplined traits for phalanxes would be worth the large upkeep and long supply lines.

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Originally Posted by Intranetusa

I pwned one unit of elite African Pikemen with one unit of mercenary hellenic pikemen + 44 (1/3 unit) Cretan Archers shooting at them from behind. :p

https://img441.imageshack.us/img441/816/pwnlb9.th.jpg

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I had once killed one of that kind with nothing but three units of Equites (the Roman cavalry isn't really that bad).

Always a good phalanx are the classical Hoplites. If you use them the proper way in guard mode without making attacks that require changes of direction, (that is not like a Barbarian warband, what the AI always does) even Successor elite phalanx has serious problems to get through them. The Makedonian Phalanxes usually only win by superior numbers within the units against the classicals.

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Originally Posted by konny

I had once killed one of that kind with nothing but three units of Equites (the Roman cavalry isn't really that bad).

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Arent that bad??

every battle that I use them _all_ but 1-3 DIE and then route....

Equites are just...well I havent found a use for them yet :P

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Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios

The latter is basically copy-pezhetairoi from my experience, and the latter is simply not as good as Argyraspides.

I think Argyraspides at least if you play as the AS, are the very best as a unit of the entire game: relatively wide AOR (Alexandreia, Antiocheia, Charax, Babylon, Seleukeia in the East + East shore of the Aigean, and Pella + Demetrias in the west) and basically just as capable as any other elite phalanx.

But the absolute best are the Misthophoroi Phalangitai: they are extremely widespread and very capable too.

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Quantity has a quality all its own. :inquisitive:

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Originally Posted by Boyar Son

Arent that bad??

every battle that I use them _all_ but 1-3 DIE and then route....

Equites are just...well I havent found a use for them yet :P

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Equites doesn't have AP and only about .15 lethality or something, so I don't know how you can use them to kill Phalanxes, unless you rout the phalanx through double envelopment and shock tactics.

Far better to just use the equites extraordinarii.

Don't play a lot of AS or Pt but the Macedonian silver shields are a very satisying unit, and more widspread than the pre-reform pezhets.

Ymarsakar makes a great pouint about versatiluity and teven the humble panto phalanx does a job, especially morale/experience boosted.

Imho a phalanx is a phalanx, of course Argyspides and Sacred Bands are desirable, but if you use a Pantodapoi Phalangitai unit or something simmilar effectively, it'll do just as good a job for a hell of a lot less (just don't let them get flanked! :laugh4:).
Cheers

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Originally Posted by overweightninja

Imho a phalanx is a phalanx, of course Argyspides and Sacred Bands are desirable, but if you use a Pantodapoi Phalangitai unit or something simmilar effectively, it'll do just as good a job for a hell of a lot less (just don't let them get flanked! :laugh4:).
Cheers

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Actually the huge difference in armor from a levy phalanx (p. phalangitai) to a medium phalanx makes a HUGE difference in combat, levy phalanxes will get chewed up, even from the front, if they don't receive help in a short period of time where with the medium and elite phalanxes you have a lot more time and flexibility to break enemies that are pinned on your phalanxes. The medium and elites lose a lot less men on average per battle too, compared to the p.phalangitai. It's much better to use at least the medium phalanxe, since these don't have more than 2 to 3 points of armor difference from the elites.

"The only good phalanx unit is a dead phalanx unit"

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Originally Posted by Skandaz.Imperator

"The only good phalanx unit is a dead phalanx unit"

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QFT.

Classical Hoplite FTW

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Originally Posted by Skandaz.Imperator

"The only good phalanx unit is a dead phalanx unit"

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Except the barbarian ones.

The Sweboz, Getai and Helvetii for teh win.

Chaonion Agema, 'nuff said.


...


What? No, I'm not obsessed with Epeiros!

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Originally Posted by gurakshun

Actually the huge difference in armor from a levy phalanx (p. phalangitai) to a medium phalanx makes a HUGE difference in combat, levy phalanxes will get chewed up, even from the front, if they don't receive help in a short period of time where with the medium and elite phalanxes you have a lot more time and flexibility to break enemies that are pinned on your phalanxes. The medium and elites lose a lot less men on average per battle too, compared to the p.phalangitai. It's much better to use at least the medium phalanxe, since these don't have more than 2 to 3 points of armor difference from the elites.

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Agreed. Also, they are pure phalanxes in that they are dead if flanked. With The other units you have more time to react. But they do very well on hills. I took few casualties facing Kleuruch phalangites who just got mauled. It was painful to see them do a Dead Zone/Dario Argento like move. How can you keep walking up a hill with a pike through your chest?Ouch.

Pantadapoi Phalangitai or Mistophoroi Phalangites.

To me any phalanx that can hold the enemy is good. I waste my money and recruiting time in cavalry when I play as a Hellenistic faction.

All these people saying levy/cheap phalanxes do a good job, i think you're on drugs. I've been playing as Makedonia for weeks and levy phalanxes aren't worth a damn. They'll do fine against light infantry, but against any other phalanx, even one with merely 1 more point of armour/melee, they will get chewed up real quick.

They're cheap and it shows. They don't route so easily, their morale is fine, but they take heavy losses every single battle, even if they are put in the center of your line with other more armoured phalanxes either side of them.

Pantodapoi are excellent supportive phalanxes: their AP axes come in handy. And being cheap is a good thing when the main job you use them for is to survive the autocalc against lots of missile infantry the Eleutheroi come up with... :juggle: At least for me the Autocalc is a lot more easy on my armies if I stick a phalanx unit or two in my armies.

EDIT: Also with phalanxes it is about having the right formation depth. For example if you are up to superior phalanxes but do have the greater number it pays to double your formation depth: the phalanx will literally hold twice as long, and it'll push twice as hard too.

In all fairness to the elite loving guys, do you honestly think that the only way to use phalanx is head to head? Lets be realistic. Any unit that will hold the enemy for a good amount of time for them to be flanked is a good unit in my book and the better price/performance you get, the better they are.

Besides the Mac Reformed Phalanx looks the best right up there with the Epirote ones.

I've been cruel to the AI at times: hitting it from the sides with elit phalangitai; and literraly battering through its formations (which is more a job for levy phalanxes, btw). Sacrifice one unit at the right time - nothing is more effective and morale dropping for the enemy than to see its formations being ripped apart and find itself being envelopped from all sides.

You just need to resist the enough time for your superior cavalry to win over the enemy cavalry and charge against their enemy phalanx from the back.

You can even do them a Theban Oblique formation and many of your levies will not be touched, before the cavalry arrives.

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Originally Posted by Dayve

All these people saying levy/cheap phalanxes do a good job, i think you're on drugs. I've been playing as Makedonia for weeks and levy phalanxes aren't worth a damn. They'll do fine against light infantry, but against any other phalanx, even one with merely 1 more point of armour/melee, they will get chewed up real quick.

They're cheap and it shows. They don't route so easily, their morale is fine, but they take heavy losses every single battle, even if they are put in the center of your line with other more armoured phalanxes either side of them.

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It all depends on what you're using the phalanx for. I say pantodapoi phalangitai are the best phalanx because they're widespread and cheap, and any phalanx is as good as another in combat the way I play. They only take heavy losses if they face another phalanx for any length of time, which rarely happens with good cavalry support. As soon as something is pinned the cavalry swarms in behind and the enemy unit routs (doesn't much matter how good the enemy unit is, either). Every faction I'm aware of who can recruit their own phalanxes rather than using mercs has a very nice cavalry selection - Prodromoi and Hetairoi for the Hellenes, Kinsmen and cataphracts for the easterners. They are the decisive arm, and the ones on whom money should be spent lavishly, exactly like Eduorius said. Phalanxes, eh, who cares as long as they carry a sarissa. I'll bring in Klerouchoi sometimes if I'm playing one of the successor factions since they're also very widespread, but the so-called elites are just not worth the bother for me.

Any unit when outmaneuvered is defeated. Phalangites are too slow, and having Elites, unless this mod is about the Greek Classical Period, will not give you the win.

See Ilipa or Cynoscephalae as examples of why is better to go cheap with phalanx and crazy spending with flanks.

Last few replies share the point, I'm not saying the levy phalanxes are anywhere near as good 1v1, its the cheapness and availablility that count, like I said as long as you dont let them get flanked, and use them as support or well supported themselves they do the job, especially early on for obvious reasons.
Cheers

Yes, phalanx is best used when having many of them in a long line. 4 or 5 should be the minimum in a full stack. I usually have 10 units for the phalanx-line, that is 6 phalanxes, 2 swordfighter or axemen, one on each wing immediatly next to the phalanx, and one unit of non-phalanx spearmen next to the swordfighters. The rest are the support- and assault-forces: slingers, cavalry, more medium infantry.

When I am not able to field at least 4 untis of phalanx for an army plus all the support forces, I made it a doctrine to not use any phalanx at all in that army. From my experince, when you don't have enough phalanx to let these do most of the fighting against the enemy infantry, you are better off without them because then they just stand in the way of the more mobile units.

From that point of view the best phalanx is the cheapest - as long as you don't have to fight an enemy who has either more of them or the same number but better units.

What about the Chaonion Agema?

I like Pezhetairoi the best, probably.

Good looking, efficient, dependable, and not-too-expensive, they form a solid battle line to pin the enemy down with.

Of course, the elite ones are better 1v1, but they're usually also awfully expensive, and due to the fact that I usually start building a new army always when I get enough incomes I never get enough income to build elite-armies.

While I understand the pro's of the cheap levy-phalanxes, they usually suffer more losses, can't be trusted as well, and, well, (vanity FTW) they usually don't look that good, and thus be unfit for ze Imperial Legions.

So, I'm gonna go with Pezhetairoi.