Most difficult faction to win with?

So far I've played as the Germans, English and Danes managing victory with each. I'm temped to try a muslim faction like the Turks perhaps, or Egyptians but I'm wondering who the hardest faction to win with is?

I've just started a High era campaign as the Russians, dealing with the Golden Horde and their starting position should make it a solid challenge, but I'm confident my Boyar's, Steppe Cavalry and Druhzina Cavalry (dismounted into Feudal Footknights for my base infantry) will be enough to secure the wins.

I'm playing on expert difficulty and while this will prove a challenge I'm sure, I'm certain I'll prevail.

what have you veterans found? Who is the hardest to win with?

I wouldn't get too confident about your odds as the Russians. Don't get me wrong, Boyars are fine troops, as are Druzhina's. But in my experience playing that, money is incredibly tight, so tight that you really won't be able to afford druzhina's, on account of the fact that halbs serve the anti-mongol purpose much better and boyars are flat better as cavalry. And frankly, steppe cavalry just get trounced by Mongol heavy cav and mongol horse archers in melee, unless you have far, far superior generalship and tactics. My biggest advice would be this: DO NOT try to out-cavalry the Mongols. It doesn't work. Especially in high period when you just don't have enough time or money to pump out enough boyars. Rather, go for the classic arbs/halbs approach. Much cheaper, which you will need, and better suited to tackling the Mongol units. The only saving grace I've found is that the Mongols seem to have weaker emergences when you start on high period, but perhaps its just coincidence.

As for the hardest faction...in unmodded VI, I'd say the Holy Roman Empire. Just a ton of enemies to deal with, all at the same time, lots of bad provinces to start out with, not much money, and the royal pain in the arse that is the Pope. However, I'd say the Armenians in XL have the most difficult start, although it was vastly tougher in my experience before the 3.0 version came out.

In unmodded MTW, I'd have to go with the Polish based on my own personal experience. Their unique troops are outgunned by almost everything else in their class, and the economy is quite hard to build. It's been ages since I played them though, so maybe it had something to do with my n00b skillz as well.

I think I'd have to go with the Armenians for XL, although (as per above) I've only got an early version of the mod. The poor Armenians are surrounded by strong factions with faster, more versatile troops. I got absolutely hammered.

(XL), I vote the Volga-Bulgarians, as the Armenians, if you gather a momentous beginning, then you can conquer very easily into Georgia.
However as Volga-Bulgaria, you are forever teetering and tottering.
And then the Mongols arrive in your homeland!

If you are going to attempt a Russian Orthodox faction, start in Early as Novgorod or Kiev - both are very similar in challenge and units.
If you start in Early, like the Fatimids, you will have an advantage in strength over Catholic forces,
depending on your playing style.

Very well done on your campaign with the Holy Roman Empire - I have just finished destroying them at the head of Bohemia,
which will hopefully be my first AAR.
The English are not in a position I admire, Britain is very high maintenance to protect, ironically, and so I prefer, like I do the Germans, to conquer them.
As the Danes however, I prospered, and my campaign would have been successful had I not recruited a unit in each of my 12 provinces,
whom each had 1 Loyalty, under the rule of two Princes with 2 Loyalty.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Glenn

(XL), I vote the Volga-Bulgarians, as the Armenians, if you gather a momentous beginning, then you can conquer very easily into Georgia.
However as Volga-Bulgaria, you are forever teetering and tottering.
And then the Mongols arrive in your homeland!

---

I couldn't agree more. I haven't tried the Armenians yet, but the Voga-Bulgars are no easy faction either. The first 5 to 10 years are easy but then every neighbour starts to turn on you. You're struggeling to get those poor steppe provinces to yield you at least some revenue while you constantly have to field a few armies. Then the Scandinavians start to show up and go right for you with all their princes and vikingsunits (I don't care what units you have, if you face 3 units of huscarles you're going to bleed). And when you finaly have pacified your borders and have access to your best troops, then the Horde arives and you don't have Xbows.

The V-Bs rock! Bashkorts are the key. Spearmen with javelins, just remember to use them properly :2thumbsup: It's their economy that's tough, for sure....

I think in vanilla VI Poland is a tough one, too, and as outlined above HRE has a challenging time. The Muslim factions are all pretty easy, as they start so big anyway. Starting as a one-province muslim faction would be more of a challenge :bow: Of course, if you've only played Catholic factions so far, the change of style required for muslim armies will make it a little more difficult for you, though you will soon get into the swing of things.

I still have to try XL3, but in 2.1 I loved the Armenian campaign. Tight cash, surrounded by (potential) enemies, but once you've sorted the economy and have a couple more provinces, it's the kick-@ss superhighway to 1453 :2thumbsup:

Howbout Byzantium in Late? :D

Annie

I've gotta go with the Polish as being the hardest, and the HRE a pretty close second. I've not really played Novgorod/Russians enough to comment on them.

In XL, I definitely agree that the Armenians are the toughest, with the Irish right behind them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LadyAnn

Howbout Byzantium in Late? :D

Annie

---

I confess I almost never play in the Late period. I imagine they would be fairly challenging, however. They only have Constantinople & Nicaea, and their troops are surely at least somewhat obselete by then. :sweatdrop:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Martok

I confess I almost never play in the Late period. I imagine they would be fairly challenging, however. They only have Constantinople & Nicaea, and their troops are surely at least somewhat obselete by then. :sweatdrop:

---

As usual my old friend Martok is right - I am currently playing a late Byzantine XL and it is really fun. You have to play a different game to normal - especially early on - you expand in small bites, usually capitialising on other people's problems. You frantically build a trading empire and econ upgrades and buy as many mercs as possible. In my game Nicaea had an inn from the begining and there was a succession of quality troops available. Once you have got a bit more critical mass you can play a slightly more conventional game, but the mercs seem to dry up and you don't really have the real quality troops others have. Your army has to be large to counteract this and that makes for a constant budget pressure. Despite having the largest income I get the insufficent funds message virtually every move. The troop problem is best illustrated by the infantry - your main line troops are either Byz infantry or armoured spears - now there is a challenge!!

Wll for me (nd I thnk the rest of you) THEhardest faction in XL would have to be th Volga-Bulgars...in High. You literally have no advantages (no polearms, no xbows), your economy is horrible, your surrounded by enemies, and you will always be outnumbered without the blessing of a bridge either! Has anyone EVER managed to win as Volga-Bulgaria in High?

in vanilla the hardest to win with would be the germans

XL or MTW, the Polish are my favourite, and my most accustomed Kingdom.
I can win near to any battle with Polish units, I love their Political situation, their cavalry, they are close enough to the East to be influenced by the old Sarmatian ways, yet dear enough to the West to hold on to Catholicism and grand, Feudal armies.
Easy!

However, I am a very different player, I would feel uncomfortable as the French, English or Germans in any era - almost so that I would probably be defeated.
This is because I do not like the feel of being cast into an empire - especially not one under scrutiny - but prefer to use stratagem to create my own Kingdom out of little in a world full of empire.

I haven't played XL in a while, but I remember the Crusaders on High to have a challenging start. You start with good troops but no infrastructure to build more and no inns for mercenaries. You're also surrounded by enemies. Once you get past the challenging start, you're on easy street with the rich middle eastern provinces.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by King Kurt

As usual my old friend Martok is right !

---

Of course, he's right! I told him! :p

Annie

No mention of Aragon (for vanilla that is)? :inquisitive:

Of course, it's almost only the opening that's hard, after that it can be very hard to predict if it's going to continue to be difficult´, as it's dependant on that some faction have grown very strong.

aragon is easy if you get jinetes and take toulouse straight away and bribe el cid
then after that all you gotta do is ally with the spanish and kick the infidels off of iberia then conquer spain then youre as good as the spanish

For me Aragon is easy if you take out the Castilians as soon as possible and then deal with the Moors. The Castlians are by far your biggest threat.

Swiss in late then? :book:

All factions get easy after you've reached a suitable size so that the question is basically to assess what are the most difficult starting positions. The only post-start factor to take into account IMHO is whether or not you are close the Khazar (HUGE SPOILER: that's where the Golden Horde usually shows up !!!).

Based on that the most difficult factions for me are:

• Aragon (if you do not get rid of the Spaniard and Elmos ASAP you are trouble indeed)
• HRE (no money, not enough good generals, enemies all over and rebellion prone)
• Italy (enemies all over, non-stop crusades crossing your land, Pope fascinated by Tuscany)
• Poland (No moeny, Byz to the south and east, if managed to go eastward you're first in line when the Horde appears)
• Turkey (Byz West, Egyptians South, No East, if managed to go North you're first in line when the Horde appears)

On the other hand the easiest factions are the English (and their cosy little set up) and the Spanish (need to get rid of the Elmos ASAP but that usually a walk-over for an human player with a few jinettes).

I'd say it also depends on your play style to some extent. Every faction becomes easier if you do the early blitz, but some factions become considerably harder if you try to turtle. I imagine blitzing somewhat levels the playing field of difficulty, whereas turtling highlights the differences in the starting positions of different factions.

Irish in XL leave no room for error at all. The easiest faction would have to be the Byzantines in early, as you have lots of lucrative proviences and you can play off the Fatimids and Seljuks against each other.

Well, my first Expert High Age Russian campaign failed due to CTD problems, but I was already reeling from the Golden Horde onslaught anyway.

I recently restarted with the ruskies and have cleaned house. Slaughtered the Golden Horde after a tense standoff and a couple of pitched battles. Picked up most of Scandanavia from the Rebels, then moved on to Britain and dealt to them. The Almo's conquered Spain, france and most of the rest of western europe while Turkey wiped out the Egyptians.

It looked to be Russia vs Almohads going for the title and sooner or later we were going to have to clash so I bit the bullet and landed a massive army in France, Normandy and another in Provence. The idea was to force a retreat then bait the Almo's into a counter attack where I had the advantage of defending. they wouldn't bite however and just withdrew to other territories.

As a result, I've cleaned out most of western europe and I'm working on Spain. Almo provinces are rebelling everywhere and I think they must be in the throes of a civil war. Aragon and England have reappeared and are trying to make some gound against me but getting nowhere.

A couple of minor factions - Hungary, Denmark are trying to take advantage of the fact that most of my armies are away and are nibbling my borders without success. Only Turkey, Italy, Sicily, Pope and HRE are uncommitted at present but if they all joined the fight against me it could get interesting.

Currently Russia dominates most of the world, despite the best infantry attacking infantry I have access to being Militia Sergeants. No FMAA or CMAA's, no Vikings nothing expect dismounted Druzhina Cavalry which I can't build anymore because we're now in the late age.

Also, No Feudal, Royal or Chivalric Knights - nor even Mounted Sergeants!! The best strike cavalry I have is Steppe Cavalry or perhaps Boyars once they've used up their arrows.

I think it's time I tried out a muslim faction - Perhaps Turkey. Mother Russia has proven herself enough I think.

Has anyone else played Scots in High period XL?

I'm finding them very difficult. Very limited cavalry, no mounted archers, no Halbardiers, no knights except royals, no Chiv. MAA leaves you ata disadvantage against many european armies. The Scottish Warriors are nice, but low defense and can only be built in Scotland, aside from that you only really have FMAA's and Militia Sergeants for infantry or Gallowglasses. The Gallows are nice, but die rapidly due to nonexistant defense.

I really enjoyed Scotland in High but, yeah, the start is tough...

If you can ally with France early (to encourage an English/French rivalry), and focus on taking Mercia and Wales by land, it gets much easier once you have Bowyer's Workshop and Bowyer's Guild respectively in each province.

By the time you get to Flanders, you're a worthy world power.

Gallows are one of the few troop-types who actually do reasonably well against Bills, due to their low armour and high attack, but you have to massage their morale with religious buildings.

first time I played the high campaign, I chose russia. This was the first EVER time I had played. I didn't know what to expect that much, The mongols came and annihilated me.

I've done early with Germany, Aragonese and Byzantines.

Presumably, the Islamic factions are hardest to do, as you have to quench revolts due to the religion and if you dont use alims, and etc you will find your self surrounded by rebel provinces, especially when you get towards middle europe.

With VI, I haven't completed the game with scotland and Northumbria.

Welcome to the Org, Vladimir.Lenin.Returned! I'm pleased to see you've discovered the joys of MTW. :medievalcheers:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vladimir.Lenin.Returned

first time I played the high campaign, I chose russia. This was the first EVER time I had played. I didn't know what to expect that much, The mongols came and annihilated me.

---

That's not at all unusual. Indeed, you can take some solace in the fact that your experience is virtually identical to many people who played as the Russians for the first time. ~;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vladimir.Lenin.Returned

Presumably, the Islamic factions are hardest to do, as you have to quench revolts due to the religion and if you dont use alims, and etc you will find your self surrounded by rebel provinces, especially when you get towards middle europe.

---

Actually, the Muslim factions are generally quite easy to play as. The Almohads and Egyptians both start with some very good provinces income-wise, along with a decent starting position from which to expand and/or defend. The Turks are somewhat more challenging, as they're sandwiched in between the Byzantines and Egyptians (and must therefore go to war with at least one of those factions if they're to expand), but they're still not overly difficult.

Personally, I recommend playing as the Eggies. They're one of my favorite factions in the game. :2thumbsup:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vladimir.Lenin.Returned

With VI, I haven't completed the game with scotland and Northumbria.

---

If you're finding those two factions to be a little too difficult, then I would recommend playing as either Saxons or Mercians -- both factions are start with rich lands and a pretty good starting position. If you want to play a faction whose units are very different from everyone else's, then you might want to give the Irish a try; they still have access to decent lands, and can build up without as much interference from the other factions. :yes:

Quote:

---

If you're finding those two factions to be a little too difficult, then I would recommend playing as either Saxons or Mercians -- both factions are start with rich lands and a pretty good starting position. If you want to play a faction whose units are very different from everyone else's, then you might want to give the Irish a try; they still have access to decent lands, and can build up without as much interference from the other factions. :yes:

---

No I mean I've done it with every other faction. Mercians didn't take too long, onr did the saxons.

I've come to realise that you have to play Scottland very similarly to playing the Danes. Instead of getting Vikings from their Fort, , Scotland gets Gallowglasses from a Swordsmith. emans you can't spam them quite as much, the fact that you need a Keep other buildings before you can start producing your hallmark troops is a annoying, but hordes of Gallowglasses backed by the more stable FMAA's and a little cavalry makes a pretty vicious attacking army.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Roark

In unmodded MTW, I'd have to go with the Polish based on my own personal experience. Their unique troops are outgunned by almost everything else in their class, and the economy is quite hard to build. It's been ages since I played them though, so maybe it had something to do with my n00b skillz as well.

---

I agree, and their leader pool is uniformly stupid/timid. But, since you mention it, I was barely more than a noob the last time I played them - perhaps it's time to put my hard-won experience to the test in a REAL challenge?:idea:

well, at first, russia in high was REAL hard, yet I used my foreknowledge to avoid fighting the Horde (at first), Letting me expand west before tackling the horde.

french in early seems kinda hard too. poor infrastructure, no unique units, faced with rivals on all sides...good thing they have rich provinces(e.g. Flanders).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ravencroft

french in early seems kinda hard too. poor infrastructure, no unique units, faced with rivals on all sides...good thing they have rich provinces(e.g. Flanders).

---

Not that hard cause even though your location is not that great you get very quickly two very nice generals. Moreover, the fact that you can train holibars is a big advantage (just need a fort while most of the other catholic faction around - except the English - need a keep to build mounted seargents)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jxrc

Not that hard cause even though your location is not that great you get very quickly two very nice generals. Moreover, the fact that you can train holibars is a big advantage (just need a fort while most of the other catholic faction around - except the English - need a keep to build mounted seargents)

---

Not to mention the massive increase to Zeal very early on with the founding of the True Cross.

However, I believe that becomes a relative "wash" when you, only a few turns later, receive the "income halved across the whole of France" message due to the peasant crusade.

Hobilars are indeed a nice advantage...but comparing this to my Italian campaign : It's 1115 and I can now produce Mounted Sergeants, Royal Knights, Feudal Seargeants, Feudal Men at arms, Militia Sergeants, etc.

Any advantage the early Hobilars would have given the French, is gone that quick. Further, your main rival as the French, the English, has the same access to Hobilars from the get go. So this "advantage" is even further reduced.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ArtistofWarfare

Hobilars are indeed a nice advantage...but comparing this to my Italian campaign : It's 1115 and I can now produce Mounted Sergeants, Royal Knights, Feudal Seargeants, Feudal Men at arms, Militia Sergeants, etc.

Any advantage the early Hobilars would have given the French, is gone that quick. Further, your main rival as the French, the English, has the same access to Hobilars from the get go. So this "advantage" is even further reduced.

---

Perhaps I have been playing too much as the HRE ... :dizzy2: When I can only build mounted x-bows and have no money to afford a keep, holibar look real nice to me. :yes: True enough that all the other faction can catch up pretty quickly but then it is almsot true for all the other specific units that other catholic factions other than the Danes have very early in the game (Frydmen, Jinettes). I do not include the Swabian Swordmen and Italian Infrantry cause you need quite a few years to be able to produce those.

ok. Byz in high/late is Harder, couse if you don't expand, you're dead(either by the turks, or anybody else).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jxrc

Perhaps I have been playing too much as the HRE ... :dizzy2: When I can only build mounted x-bows and have no money to afford a keep, holibar look real nice to me. :yes: True enough that all the other faction can catch up pretty quickly but then it is almsot true for all the other specific units that other catholic factions other than the Danes have very early in the game (Frydmen, Jinettes). I do not include the Swabian Swordmen and Italian Infrantry cause you need quite a few years to be able to produce those.

---

You know, I'm sort of glad you mentioned that (regarding Italian Infantry)...

1133 of my Italian campaign and I have Royal Knights, genoese sailors Mounted x-bow men mercs, catapults, trebechous (sp?) artillery mercs, mounted sergeants and the entire line on down in infantry from peasants up to Feudal sergeants...etc etc etc...and still, I have at least 15 years until I have Italian Infantry.

It seems as if the general consensus is that these are "start up units" right from the get go in the early period...when in fact they take a significant amount of buildup.

Obviously being Italian only...I believe you have no way of recruiting them before you have castles...and these would have to be an infantry specialized province of yours considering how many climbs up the tech tree that is in just castle size and spear lines etc.

It's a climb indeed...

edit: (then again, my most built up province IS Venice and of course this is not an infantry specialized province to me...considering navy, trade, government, religion. Still...It would be at least ..I dunno, 25 years or so if you specifically shot for it with one province? At least?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ArtistofWarfare

edit: (then again, my most built up province IS Venice and of course this is not an infantry specialized province to me...considering navy, trade, government, religion. Still...It would be at least ..I dunno, 25 years or so if you specifically shot for it with one province? At least?

---

Could use Venice to build Italian Infantry fast but then you really want those badly since you'd have to give up the early improvement of the trade. Usually, I only use Venice to produce galleys (+1 valour) and get the master trading house asap...

IMHO the best province to build spear in Milan cause that's the only one with no trade (Tuscany is in the long term a better option because of the iron but you'd need more time for the same reason and because of trading upgrade). In any event, I prefer Milan cause that's where I "must" build the Cathedral (silly of me, but I just cannot imagine to get the title of archbishop of Milan for a cathedral built in Corsica :shame: )

I you go for spears in Milan and fully give up farm updgrades you would be able to produce Italian infantry in 1129 (2 turns for border forts, 4 for the fort, 10 for the keep, 12 for castle, 2 for the militia, 2+4+6 for the level three spearmaker) or about (unless I made a mistake regarding the time needed for a building or forgot anything necessary). Since you probably will want to improve the agriculture and build at least a church your start of production date would realistically rather be around 1153 (+4 for church - +20 for crop improvement).

Rather easier than the Swabian Swordmen since (i) you do not need the armour upgrade and (ii) as the Itilians, money is not an issue that could prevent you from moving ahead with the construction every turn ...

The Italian Infantry really are useful. In fact, they're better than Chiv. Sergeants, and they're available in early.

Money wont' be a problem, as you get lots of it from trade (just be careful and secure your trade routes).

I think then , that the Italians are one of the easier factions, but they're not the easiest, relatively speaking.