Will You Buy a SecuRomed Empire?

UPDATE: It has been announced here will be no SecuROM in Empire: Total War - it will use the Steam system. Good job by Creative Assembly, and I will now in all probability purchase the game.

Simple question. If Empire: Total War comes with SecuRom, or similar copy protection, under the presumption it is never released with a removal tool and is similar to SecuRom or StarForce.

Will you still buy it?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The purpose of this poll is both for my own interest and to show CA and Sega our opinions.

Note that CA has not yet confirmed if SecuROM will be included in Empire, but they have stated that SecuROM or alternate copy protection will be.

Didn't such a thread exist already in this forum?

I think so, but it wasn't a poll.

Polls make everything cool.

Except AIDS. Not cool at all.

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Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

I think so, but it wasn't a poll.

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Actually, it was a poll showing opinions.

Hmm, I didn't think it was. Well, maybe now that it's been thoroughly discussed in the M2TW forums some opinions will have changed.

no:no:

I've gotta say I'm stoked about ETW and I can't wait for it to hit the shelves. However the one big, big, big fly in my ointment is SecuRom. I was constantly on the Total War web page during the build up to Kingdoms but the SecuRom fiasco has so far put me off from buying a copy. I reckon like a true TW junkie I'll eventually give in and pick up a copy but so far I've been holding out until I see it cheaper enough to justify infecting my machine. I really don't want this stuff in my system but I suppose once I'm hooked I might not be so bothered by the copy protection on ETW so the honest answer is that yes I'll probably still buy it and then bitch about it later on these very pages.

:laugh4:

Sorry but this is laughable.
What good is a copy protection if you deliver it with a removal tool? :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

Hidden folders are also really scary (hint: Windows has some :laugh4: )

And I'm really surpried that the game is not supposed to be playable without the copy protection, that sounds as if they try to stop people from copying it. :laugh4:

Ubisoft released some patches that removed StarForce after the fact, to my knowledge. This poll operates on the presumption that CA will not.

OHH MMYY LOOORRDDD!!!!

STOP WITH THESE DAMN THREADS!!!

I'm not sure.-

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Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

Simple question. If Empire: Total War comes with SecuRom, or similar copy protection, under the presumption it is never released with a removal tool and is similar to SecuRom or StarForce.

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The particular version of SecuRom in Kingdoms does not bother me, so the answer would be yes.

But if it is StarForce, or similar then no.

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Originally Posted by RoadKill

OHH MMYY LOOORRDDD!!!!

STOP WITH THESE DAMN THREADS!!!

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Just curiosity. Relax.

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Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

Ubisoft released some patches that removed StarForce after the fact, to my knowledge. This poll operates on the presumption that CA will not.

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The evil about StarForce is not just that it has hidden folders, it can make optical drives deteriorate and become useless, if SecuROM did that as well I wouldn't buy SecuROM games but so far I haven't heard anyone claim that it does. SecuROM is not StarForce.

I don't know. I do know that I haven't purchased Kingdoms at least partially due to the DRM stuff. Ultimately, I think it would depend on how virulent such protection software was and how good Empires actually is judged by people here.

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Originally Posted by Husar

The evil about StarForce is not just that it has hidden folders, it can make optical drives deteriorate and become useless, if SecuROM did that as well I wouldn't buy SecuROM games but so far I haven't heard anyone claim that it does. SecuROM is not StarForce.

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What I meant by "hidden folders" was more that it hides the install from you than that the folders are simply hidden by default.

Yes, and when you install Windows it also creates folders that are hidden by default. Are you using Linux or a Mac because of that? :inquisitive:

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Originally Posted by Husar

Yes, and when you install Windows it also creates folders that are hidden by default. Are you using Linux or a Mac because of that? :inquisitive:

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No, but the Windows install folders are not my definition of malicious or invasive software.

Whether I am buying Empire or not depends entirely on battlefield and campaign AI, which has to be better than the ones for RTW and MTW2, and in that case they can put whatever securom they wish. Will remove it manually later.

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Originally Posted by Bruņurupucis

Whether I am buying Empire or not depends entirely on battlefield and campaign AI, which has to be better than the ones for RTW and MTW2, and in that case they can put whatever securom they wish. Will remove it manually later.

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There is only one way to have better "AI": restrict the players' controls...
Otherwise is to have an online/LAN campaign...

Voted undecided. I don't generally like more software installs, especially non-removable ones. I wouldn't mind plugging in some USB-thing every time I play a game as a form of copy protection, but software installs, if anywhere close to how dangerous starforce apparently has been reported to be, aren't very appreciated.

The difference between hidden folders in Windows OS and in a product like SecuRom is that the former hides them, as do MAC OS, other UNIX types and Linux by the way for convenience and security purposes. SecuRom and other copy protection software on the other hand hide them in much the same was as spyware or malware would: In order that the process and it's binaries be invisible to the end user.

I voted no, but that doesn't matter as CA ignore polls. I thought Everyone knew that by now.

Deleted

Undecided. On the one hand, I love me some Total War. On the other hand, I despise SecuRom. It has caused me major headaches on two recent legally (take notice, CA, it causes problems for your CUSTOMERS, not the pirates) purchased games, including the need to buy a new DVD drive. I'll know which one wins out on release day.

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Originally Posted by caravel

The difference between hidden folders in Windows OS and in a product like SecuRom is that the former hides them, as do MAC OS, other UNIX types and Linux by the way for convenience and security purposes. SecuRom and other copy protection software on the other hand hide them in much the same was as spyware or malware would: In order that the process and it's binaries be invisible to the end user.

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Yeah, that's for security reasons, otherwise they could just offer an uninstall button next to a "burn a copy for all your friends" button, I thought that was the idea behind copy protection, to make it harder for the average joe to copy games. Now if you find out it send packages with information to Sony or Sony can remote control your PC using it or that it destroys hardware or other software, I'd agree that it's malicious but I haven't heard such things about SecuROM yet and that's why I can't understand that people just say it's malicious because it's hard to find/remove. :dizzy2:

I've got Kingdoms on my laptop and desktop and haven't had any problems with securerom so far so I voted YES!

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Originally Posted by Husar

Yeah, that's for security reasons, otherwise they could just offer an uninstall button next to a "burn a copy for all your friends" button, I thought that was the idea behind copy protection, to make it harder for the average joe to copy games. Now if you find out it send packages with information to Sony or Sony can remote control your PC using it or that it destroys hardware or other software, I'd agree that it's malicious but I haven't heard such things about SecuROM yet and that's why I can't understand that people just say it's malicious because it's hard to find/remove. :dizzy2:

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SecuRom has had it's own CD authentication issues with popular titles such as FEAR and the Sims2, runs and installs a Win32 service on your system even if you're logged in as a limited user account (malware) and is effectively trojan or rootkit like in it's operation.

If you like surrendering your PC over to this kind of software then why don't you just disable your firewall and go and visit a few dodgy warez or pr0n sites with IE, you can get a lot of similar software for free. :beam:

Also you've hit the nail on the head when you said that this copy protection is designed to stop the "average joe" from making a copy for his mates and is not designed to deter the real software pirates. I find it disappointing though that you can support this kind of software. I take it also that if you had two PCs in your house and wanted to play TW with a friend over the lan using the same copy, that you'd gladly pay twice for this game? To the letter of the law? I hope you don't record radio broadcasts or TV programs either. And if you find Bill Gates' wallet in the street I expect you to hand it back to him with not a moth out of place. :yes:

I'm a firm believer in that you should install on your own PC what you want and only that. If a game requires a hidden copy protection program then that protection should be listed in the system requirements as is DirectX, windows version or any platfrom specifics. The fact that these companies can get away with this and that some people still will accept (and sometimes support) it so readily even if they know it's there, is a sign of the times. Sooner or later this software will get more and more invasive and restrictive. The problem with piracy is the wide proliferation of cracked copies over the .net via p2p networks and warez sites and not "average joe" burning a sly copy for his cousin "average john".

You're making a few assumptions there, SecuROM is not the only protection that doesn't allow you to play the game with a friend, I remember trying to play Operation Flashpoint on two computers and getting all sorts of errors(the way the copy protection is claimed to work) on the second install, but I do not remember any big outrage about the copy protection of the game, the outrage seems to be a sign of the times as well. :dizzy2:
And yes, I would obviously like to be able to do that, but in theory Communism is also great and all people are equal though for some reason it never really worked. So in theory no copy protection would be great but in reality, most people would still get illegal copies, maybe not many more than today but Publishers keep trying to prevent those who pirate today from pirating in the future which IMO is their right unless it goes as far as spying on me or destroying my property(StarForce and whatever can come by turning off the firewall count into this).

What makes malware malware is the malicious intent, isn't it? Now where exactly is the malicious intent of SecuROM? the purpose is to stop illegal activities and it does so far not really harm normal customers, I had some problems installing games before but then a new DVD ROM usually solvesd that and I have to say I had unknowingly used the old drive with StarForce games which may well have been the cause for those problems.

I just don't really see what StarForce destroys, except inviting your friend to play on your second computer(though I thought that is usually prohibited by the game itself when it checks the serial numbers of both clients), but then if I could afford a second computer.... ~;)

We've already been down this road many times Husar. Some of the reasons why this DRM is malware is listed in the Securom thread in the Citadel, I know I've told you dozens of times in the chat what else it does, and you can always Google for additional information. And the whole "It doesn't bother me therefore it's fine hurf durf!" is rather ignorant, to try and put it nicely (yes, that's the nice way of saying it). If it's on your machine, it can and will do Bad Things© and in certain situations can be greatly exacerbated, and can (in this case does) present a very real security exposure to your system and your personal information. This is like those people who argue that Starforce has "never done anything to them because they don't notice it". Ignorance does not equal bliss certainly does not mean that real damage hasn't occured.

Yet again, all this coming from someone who was arguing with me as to why they should put their PC behind a firewall/nat router, someone who ran Vista almost since launch on the raw Internetknowing FULL well MS's wonderful track record for releasing bug-free OS's. :smash:

I'm sure you know that most of this is said tongue-in-cheek, but I am also serious. I don't want people to get the wrong impression about what this DRM really is and what it actually does. There's a difference between protecting one's investments and invading another's privacy. Publishers have a right to protect their investments, but like anything is subject to limitations. Securom and Starforce go well beyond what is reasonable to a good majority of us, and also to those of us who are in the IT Security profession (which I am) as well if you read about it.

You may be right Whacker (though my memory has holes concerning our chat about SecuROM), but isn't it interesting how almost none of what you say is in the OP? :inquisitive:
All I was asking for was a decent reason to hate or avoid SecuROM, similar to the reasons you gave me to avoid StarForce, the OP certainly didn't provide any IMO. Now I think I'll be off to play some Kingdoms. ~;)

WHACKER LIVES!!!! I voted undecided.

Well, at least now I know why my optical drives keep failing.

Voted undecided as it'll be based upon the protection used at the time of release. Perhaps because at one time I was in the industry, I actually do own multiple copies of games that me and my friends play at my house on the network. At the same time, I generally rig things so I don't need CD's in drives as I dislike swapping them out all the time. (I've found that manufacturers are more than willing to sell you replacement CD's, but tend to refuse to replace a damaged one for free.) As such, it generally ends with 'how far' is the manufacturer willing to go to protect their game. There is definately a line that I will go up to and then no further, regardless of my interest in the game.

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Originally Posted by Husar

You're making a few assumptions there, SecuROM is not the only protection that doesn't allow you to play the game with a friend, I remember trying to play Operation Flashpoint on two computers and getting all sorts of errors(the way the copy protection is claimed to work) on the second install, but I do not remember any big outrage about the copy protection of the game, the outrage seems to be a sign of the times as well. :dizzy2:

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I've made no assumptions, nor did I state that SecuRom was the only copy protection of that kind. I'm well aware of safedisc, starforce and all the rest.

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Originally Posted by Husar

And yes, I would obviously like to be able to do that, but in theory Communism is also great and all people are equal though for some reason it never really worked. So in theory no copy protection would be great but in reality, most people would still get illegal copies, maybe not many more than today but Publishers keep trying to prevent those who pirate today from pirating in the future which IMO is their right unless it goes as far as spying on me or destroying my property(StarForce and whatever can come by turning off the firewall count into this).

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You're going off on a tangent, leave the political analogies out of it. You seem to be a subscriber to a certain ideology whereby paying, being spied on and accepting your lot is all part of being a good capitalist and then you are overcome with admiration when you hear of the big corporations' schemes to rip you off, whereas getting something free, getting a good deal and buying software that has value for money, isn't full of invasive malware is somehow wrong. A few years back many games had a facility where 1 CD would allow a few multiplayer clients to use it. This means not having to buy a CD for each PC if you want to play against someone on a LAN. ID Software's games were heavily pirated but had hardly any copy protection at all. You can install most of them on Linux and all you need is a CD key and the pak files from the CDs. The CD doesn't need to be in the drive at all. Despite this, and despite releasing the source for their older titles, ID haven't gone out of business but have pretty much gone from strength to strength. Generally this is because those that acquired the pirate versions would never have bought the retail version anyway, and for some of those that did download pirate versions there is a good chance that they went on to buy retail versions if they liked the game enough. ID always releasing playable demos of their early games probably had something to do with it as well. Generally if a game is good people will rush out and buy it, if a game is a buggy pile of crap that people want to play test before they part with their money the "try before you buy" piracy comes int it.

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Originally Posted by Husar

What makes malware malware is the malicious intent, isn't it? Now where exactly is the malicious intent of SecuROM? the purpose is to stop illegal activities and it does so far not really harm normal customers, I had some problems installing games before but then a new DVD ROM usually solvesd that and I have to say I had unknowingly used the old drive with StarForce games which may well have been the cause for those problems.

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Malware http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malware as described in wikipedia (we can rely on it here as we're not talking history or politics) is sotware that infiltrates or damages without user consent. Considering that SecuRom is not installed with the users consent and installs a Win32 service without administrative permissions, that makes SecuRom, like starforce, malware in my book.

Securom doesn't stop illegal activities it prevents legitimate customers from making backups, requires the disc to be in the drive when the game is launched and pirates will pretty much always crack and distribute the games eventually anyway. It is you "average joe" that is inconvenienced, you that paid for the game and you that is being treated like a thief from the moment you try to install.

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Originally Posted by Husar

I just don't really see what StarForce destroys, except inviting your friend to play on your second computer(though I thought that is usually prohibited by the game itself when it checks the serial numbers of both clients), but then if I could afford a second computer.... ~;)

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Depends on the game, some games publishers are anal about that, whereas many others are not. Personally I don't see what's wrong with allowing the user to install the same disc on two pcs in their own home. To me that doesn't count as illegal copying. As to what starforce "destroys" that's not the issue here, though it will probably contribute to wearing out your optical drive, the issue is the installation of hidden malware, that is both pointless and potentially dangerous. The majority won't know this is installed at all. It will be interesting to see if there will be any issues with the version on the ETW disc. The track record for this type of software has not been good so far.

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No, never, definitely not! :rtwno: And I'll do my best for other people not to buy it either, wherever my word counts. :yes:

When all these three conditions are met, I'll consider buying it depending on its quality:

1. It will come clean, without any invasive or malicious software;
2. Customers of Kingdoms will be offered the option to get rid of the malicious Securom, or at least a clean Kingdoms version will be released;
3. Kingdoms and MiNO will be properly patched.

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I am very uncomfortable with nothing but a hard copy, so I'll just buy Empire the normal, safer way.

My baseline assumption is no. I'm considering purchasing Kingdoms because CA has agreed to release a patch and because I feel comfortable going through with the known, unofficial procedure to fully remove the version of SecuRom it contains, but there is no way to predict what version will come with Empire or what new violations it will contain.

Let me be clear that I wouldn't steal it either. Refusing malware doesn't mean being a pirate.

:egypt:

It will be a hard decision. Undecided yet.

However, those, who have Kingdoms, already have the SecuRom on their machines. So, will buying empires change anything at all?

I'll still buy the game even if it came with a monkey and a crowbar.

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Originally Posted by Husar

You may be right Whacker (though my memory has holes concerning our chat about SecuROM), but isn't it interesting how almost none of what you say is in the OP? :inquisitive:
All I was asking for was a decent reason to hate or avoid SecuROM, similar to the reasons you gave me to avoid StarForce, the OP certainly didn't provide any IMO. Now I think I'll be off to play some Kingdoms. ~;)

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Well, sorry. Really, the SecuRom issue has been debated constantly. I gathered that most people would know what it was, which it seems that most people do.

I wouldn't even buy it if it did NOT have copy protection, let alone if it WILL have. I would STEAL it..... from the store of course :P

For those who haven't been following the SecuROM thread at the Citadel, these posts summarize it well in a nutshell:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=232

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=383

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=253

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=249

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Originally Posted by FactionHeir

For those who haven't been following the SecuROM thread at the Citadel, these posts summarize it well in a nutshell:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=232

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=383

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=253

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=249

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I was wondering why no one had posted links yet.

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Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

No, but the Windows install folders are not my definition of malicious or invasive software.

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Right you are. You have to get updates for the malicious software. Free of charge! :yes:


And no. If Empire has any DRM more complex than a cd check, I won't be getting it. I've gotten enough games with this crap on it, and while it doesn't cause me any problems particularly, I payed more for my computer than I payed for my truck. It's my property. Software shouldn't do things behind the users back.

Things didn't used to be like this. :no:

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Originally Posted by Bellum

And no. If Empire has any DRM more complex than a cd check, I won't be getting it. I've gotten enough games with this crap on it, and while it doesn't cause me any problems particularly, I payed more for my computer than I payed for my truck. It's my property. Software shouldn't do things behind the users back.

Things didn't used to be like this. :no:

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As soon as home technology develops to the point where games like this can be made open source, like some games used to be, I'll have a lot more praise for the gaming community. The problem is that companies, as always, get fat and bloated, and feel they should have a monopoly. I don't want CA to become another EA.

Alright alright, stop the bickering and let's get to the solution already! Fight it with fire. Buy the game and fight it with fire. It will help.

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Originally Posted by Bijo

Alright alright, stop the bickering and let's get to the solution already! Fight it with fire. Buy the game and fight it with fire. It will help.

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I agree Ive bought Kingdoms and removed securom and still enjoy the game...

No, you guys missed the point entirely. When you buy the game, you're directly supporting the DRM that we're discussing here. It doesn't matter if you remove it, or do whatever, you're supporting it period. If you want to make a difference, don't buy the game. Otherwise, you're just deluding yourselves into thinking that you're "sticking it to them" or "showing them".

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Originally Posted by Whacker

No, you guys missed the point entirely. When you buy the game, you're directly supporting the DRM that we're discussing here. It doesn't matter if you remove it, or do whatever, you're supporting it period. If you want to make a difference, don't buy the game. Otherwise, you're just deluding yourselves into thinking that you're "sticking it to them" or "showing them".

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Its the same thing as with RomeTW...it didnt have DRM and we bought it...if Kingdoms has a DRM and I can still play it while removing teh DRM it means that its like it didnt have the DRM in the first place...
Now if Empire has a DRM that cannot be removed and played I wont buy it simple as that...

I spit on every software distribution company which uses such software. It's a disgrace and should be illegal. Protecting your CD's or Dvd's and your interests is okay, but customers should have the right to protect themselves just as much. Thank god we still have some indie games.

Wow, I never knew this thing was so big an issue until I peeped in the thread and then started reading as it was interesting..........
:dizzy2:
Yup its making my head spin, because I was totally oblivious of the fact that Kingdoms had installed anything hidden on my system.......not that I've had any problems so far, but I haven't found the files yet either, but if there is one thing I hate in this world, then it is things that have more power over my PC than myself :furious3:
While I understand that the SecuRom whatever aren't really welcome, but they'd still deter a illegal copy won't they? I mean even if a guy uses a cracked game, he won't be able to copy it further isn't it?! I mean thats the whole point!!
Next, my dear sirs I live in India, there is a reason as to why I need to order my games over the internet and pay more in USD than I would have had to pay in my own currency, because the only PC game shop in my city, sells pirated games.......lord oh lord, the whole country runs on pirated games and movies.......and a select few people (considered a**h***s due it actually) buy the original DVDs/CDs of the games for ten times the price...........
Anyway, enough said.........
I'm uninstalling Kingdoms now, and I'm hurt that this is what CA gives me for my loyalty........far as ETW is concerned, I think I'll bycott it if it has the same rubbish alongwith it.

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Originally Posted by asj_india

While I understand that the SecuRom whatever aren't really welcome, but they'd still deter a illegal copy won't they? I mean even if a guy uses a cracked game, he won't be able to copy it further isn't it?! I mean thats the whole point!!

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Nope. There are cracked copies of Kingdoms floating all over the internet. It might take the pirates an extra couple of minutes, but in the end, it only effects us.

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Originally Posted by asj_india

I'm uninstalling Kingdoms now, and I'm hurt that this is what CA gives me for my loyalty and honourableness........far as ETW is concerned, I think I'll bycott it if it has the same rubbish alongwith it.

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iirc, the super secret securom files remain on your computer even if you uninstall kingdoms.

I won't buy Empire:TW if it has any form of invasive DRM protection.

I bought Kingdoms and played it on an old machine that I've since trashed. It isn't on my new machine - like Silent Hunter III (Starforce copy protection) it sits on my shelf, games that I payed good money for that are now unusable. And now today, whilst browsing through SecuRom articles on the web, I find that Heroes of Might & Magic V, which I did install on my new machine IIRC, also has SecuRom protection. :furious3:

I've been a PC gamer since the days of Civ I and F19 Stealth Fighter 20 years ago. I've just spent a lot of money building a gaming machine with a high spec graphics card so I could enjoy games like Total War, yet I find I cannot because of this <expletive deleted> DRM software. The next time I reinstall Windows HoMM V will join the others on the shelf and I may end up just playing Galactic Civilizations since Stardock now seem to be the only publisher I can trust not to infect my computer with hidden malware.

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Originally Posted by Lord of the Isles

I won't buy Empire:TW if it has any form of invasive DRM protection.

I bought Kingdoms and played it on an old machine that I've since trashed. It isn't on my new machine - like Silent Hunter III (Starforce copy protection) it sits on my shelf, games that I payed good money for that are now unusable. And now today, whilst browsing through SecuRom articles on the web, I find that Heroes of Might & Magic V, which I did install on my new machine IIRC, also has SecuRom protection. :furious3:

I've been a PC gamer since the days of Civ I and F19 Stealth Fighter 20 years ago. I've just spent a lot of money building a gaming machine with a high spec graphics card so I could enjoy games like Total War, yet I find I cannot because of this <expletive deleted> DRM software. The next time I reinstall Windows HoMM V will join the others on the shelf and I may end up just playing Galactic Civilizations since Stardock now seem to be the only publisher I can trust not to infect my computer with hidden malware.

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HOMMV doesnt have Securom DRM it has the older version...I dont know for latest patches cause my version is still the original...

No,plain and simple. :hmg:

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Originally Posted by Whacker

No, you guys missed the point entirely. When you buy the game, you're directly supporting the DRM that we're discussing here. It doesn't matter if you remove it, or do whatever, you're supporting it period. If you want to make a difference, don't buy the game. Otherwise, you're just deluding yourselves into thinking that you're "sticking it to them" or "showing them".

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Very true.
Regardless of anything they add, I want to see something worth buying in the first place. RTW, BI, M2TW were a waste of money imo. I decided not to buy Kingdoms and I will not be buying ETW

.......Orda

I will NOT be buying Empire if it has securom on it.

I've already made the mistake of buy M2tw Gold. I installed it thinking I didn't have to install the DirectX, but soon found out I had to. So installed DirectX from the CD separately.

After, I tried to start the game up and I got an error message saying the CD wasn't in the drive (of course it was) along with a securom message saying I was trying to play off a back up copy (#@!*&$). Now I'll have to uninstall everything and than re-install it. How much do you want to bet I won't be able to play it after that, because securom will say I violated its protection?

I am so pissed ! I can't continue, or they'll kick me off this forum for typing what I really think.

Rick

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Originally Posted by hellenes

I agree Ive bought Kingdoms and removed securom and still enjoy the game...

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How did you remove it?

Rick

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Originally Posted by Rick

How did you remove it?

Rick

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http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?threadid=203200

Nope. Didin't buy SecuRom Kingdoms, and won't buy a SecuRom Empire. Loved RTW and MIITW but there's a line been drawn in the sand that I won't cross. No money for malware. End of story.

i wont buy it at all /shrug

I bought M2TW Gold (haven't installed it yet/waiting for new PC still) which as we all know, has securom.

I'll buy Empires as well. The fact remains: I plan on buying a lot of PC games in the next few years. Securom is going to either wind up on my hard drive now, or some time in the future. Might as well just bite the bullet, accept it, and continue playing the games that I want to.

If Securom was some off beat, one time application- Sure. Maybe I'd just take a pass on any software it's a part of. The fact is that Securom and copyright protection software just like it, is being sold to almost every publisher and developer in the industry today.

I just don't see any way around it...other than to deprive myself of playing the games I want to. Which is just not an option.

edit: I'll also add that since I heard about this Securom issue here on the .org, I asked people I know who have lots of new games installed on their PC. They all have Securom on their hard drive already, yet none of them report any change in their system. I'm not doubting that Securom has caused people problems...I'm just saying that it seems to be thinly spread. Older hardware seems to be primarily at risk...which makes me wonder if this is partially a nasty way to get people to upgrade hardware.

Also, Securom is made by Sony. From what I hear, Optical Drives are the main component threatened. I have a Sony optical drive. I just think this would be too ironic heh...

Sorry guys, I don't get it: when I buy bread, I pay the guy who made it. Same for many things. Why wouldn't I pay for the guys who design and sell a game I will spend hours and hours on?

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Originally Posted by Caerfanan

Sorry guys, I don't get it: when I buy bread, I pay the guy who made it. Same for many things. Why wouldn't I pay for the guys who design and sell a game I will spend hours and hours on?

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Can somebody please tell me how this is relevant to the discussion?

I guess a more appropriate question is: Would you install a SecuRomed Emire: Total War?

There is Software that SecuROM provides if you write to them that removes the programme from your Computer.
A Bit confusing to use as it isn't a double click remove programme, it gives you instructions on how to remove SecuROM from your run text box.


But yeah, Quality deserves to be bought, I have Eras, Med 2 and Kingdoms and games are getting bigger and bigger so requires money, any Mod on here can tell you how hard it is to even do the basics that they do but Hard coding, that's something else:juggle2: .

Hello thebigbossnahhh,

The discussion isn't about not buying ETW as in obtaining illegal copies.

Not buying should, in this case, be seen as not willing to install.

It would be nicer when there was an option to deinstall SecuRom together with the game. That's the least a customer should get.

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Originally Posted by TosaInu

Hello thebigbossnahhh,

The discussion isn't about not buying ETW as in obtaining illegal copies.

Not buying should, in this case, be seen as not willing to install.

It would be nicer when there was an option to deinstall SecuRom together with the game. That's the least a customer should get.

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Well, I'm definitely going to go ahead and agree with you on that one.

Especially if contacting Sony yields free software to remove the program in the first place. If this is the case, there's absolutely no reason the software should not be able to be uninstalled like every other program in existance.

I do NOT see the purpose behind this...well, I guess I do. It just doesn't benefit the paying consumer one bit.

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Originally Posted by hellenes

Can somebody please tell me how this is relevant to the discussion?

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Can somebody please tell me first why I perceive this as agressive, and then what this Securom thing is? If it's somethnig to prevent you from copying the game, isn't that some "normal stuff"?

Which I illustrated with a simple exemple (well, apparently less simple as I expected, sorry about that): why ranting against anti-piracy stuff if not because you encourage it? I used the exemple of a "shop" where you actually BUY things and consider it normal. Then, oddly, when it's music or games or films, it's a shame to pay...

Then again, I could've missed something, I'm no computer geek, I know some things, but don't follow closely all the info, so if I misunderstood something about Securom, please explain... Is that some nasty independent softaware that sends information about your system or something?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Caerfanan

Can somebody please tell me first why I perceive this as agressive, and then what this Securom thing is? If it's somethnig to prevent you from copying the game, isn't that some "normal stuff"?

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SecuROM installs a shell extension that prevents Windows Explorer from deleting 16-bit executables. SecuROM is not removed when you uninstall the game, and it can cause other programs you may use to malfunction. In other words, compatibility issues can arise between SecuROM and other software, and you won't know that it's SecuROM that's causing the problem because it doesn't show up on your system as being installed. In fact, the game company conceals from the user that SecuROM is installed by their game. So, the user isn't even aware that SecuROM has been installed which makes it pretty damn hard to figure out why some program that it conflicts with isn't working.

Hello Caerfanan,

I believe it is a customers right to make a personal backup copy of software. Abuse a book and you can (normally) still read it, scratch a CD and you can not install or play the game (apart from the tiny scratches which are error corrected).

Of course publishers are allowed to protect their investments. But this already gives a conflict with the customer.

I recall something about crashing/locking hardware a couple of years ago due to playing a legal audioCD.

This SecuRom software is installed on the computer and remains there even after uninstalling Kingdoms.

One is not allowed to copy books, I still have to encounter the first copy protection there. Exploding copymachines? Exclusive reservation of a bookshelf even when the book is thrown away?

Granted, it's a whole different medium and one on one comparisons are odd.

I don't think there's a copyprotection that hasn't been bypassed. But for the honest customer it's becoming harder: require online activation and quit when you change hardware, phone in to some distant country to activate, damaged optical equipment, remaining software. Maybe it's time to focus on encouraging purchasing legal copies rather than devising harsh copy-protection.

This topic is not promoting piracy, it is about the anti-piracy measurements that do not hurt the pirates but the customers.

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Originally Posted by Puzz3D

SecuROM installs a shell extension that prevents Windows Explorer from deleting 16-bit executables. SecuROM is not removed when you uninstall the game, and it can cause other programs you may use to malfunction. In other words, compatibility issues can arise between SecuROM and other software, and you won't know that it's SecuROM that's causing the problem because it doesn't show up on your system as being installed. In fact, the game company conceals from the user that SecuROM is installed by their game. So, the user isn't even aware that SecuROM has been installed which makes it pretty damn hard to figure out why some program that it conflicts with isn't working.

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Oh... Ok, then that's another thing. Why on earth would a program prevent you from deleting a program? And then, yes, it should at least be easy to uninstall then... But, err, what does this have to do with a proctection against copy? I mean, why add this program to a game? And BTW, as my "gaming computer" is also my "working computer", I might not install that kind of stuff on it, then...

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Originally Posted by TosaInu

Hello Caerfanan,

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Konbawa Tosa Inu,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TosaInu

I believe it is a customers right to make a personal backup copy of software. Abuse a book and you can (normally) still read it, scratch a CD and you can not install or play the game (apart from the tiny scratches which are error corrected).

Of course publishers are allowed to protect their investments. But this already gives a conflict with the customer.

I recall something about crashing/locking hardware a couple of years ago due to playing a legal audioCD.

This SecuRom software is installed on the computer and remains there even after uninstalling Kingdoms.

One is not allowed to copy books, I still have to encounter the first copy protection there. Exploding copymachines? Exclusive reservation of a bookshelf even when the book is thrown away?

Granted, it's a whole different medium and one on one comparisons are odd.

I don't think there's a copyprotection that hasn't been bypassed. But for the honest customer it's becoming harder: require online activation and quit when you change hardware, phone in to some distant country to activate, damaged optical equipment, remaining software. Maybe it's time to focus on encouraging purchasing legal copies rather than devising harsh copy-protection.

This topic is not promoting piracy, it is about the anti-piracy measurements that do not hurt the pirates but the customers.

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Yup, with Puzz3D's and your explanation it's more clear. Thank you. I still think that functionning with "replaceable" 1 for 1 CD for very cheap would be best. Like you sell the first time the game to someone, and then the guy, if he has a problem with the CD can exchange it (literally) with a new one, for a price which should be then about the CD's + litttle time to burn it. Sort of a big "developper based backup". You bring back the CD that doesn't work and that you cannot play anymore with, and go with a new one. Would be simpler, wouldn't it? :yes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Caerfanan

Oh... Ok, then that's another thing. Why on earth would a program prevent you from deleting a program? And then, yes, it should at least be easy to uninstall then... But, err, what does this have to do with a proctection against copy? I mean, why add this program to a game?

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I haven't looked into SecuRom, but my guess: it's intended to block CD-emulation software, thus preventing ten friends to share one copy on different computers.

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Yup, with Puzz3D's and tyour explanation it's more clear. I still think that functionning with "remplaceable" 1 for 1 CD for very cheap would be best.

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This was an option with STW published by EA: it was a one time replacement for $25 (? will dig up the manual). The BI manual only mentions the 90 days warranty and states that the customer is not allowed to make copies (that includes your personal backup copy I think).

Edit:
From EA's STW readme: 12 months warranty, fll25,- ( ~$12,50) to replace 1 CD after 12 months, fl35,- for both.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Puzz3D

SecuROM installs a shell extension that prevents Windows Explorer from deleting 16-bit executables. SecuROM is not removed when you uninstall the game, and it can cause other programs you may use to malfunction. In other words, compatibility issues can arise between SecuROM and other software, and you won't know that it's SecuROM that's causing the problem because it doesn't show up on your system as being installed. In fact, the game company conceals from the user that SecuROM is installed by their game. So, the user isn't even aware that SecuROM has been installed which makes it pretty damn hard to figure out why some program that it conflicts with isn't working.

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That's nasty Puzz3D.

The discussion, at least partly, is about the need to be able to uninstall SecuRom when you uninstall the game, but software like this is simply something you don't want on your computer at all.

Right now it may sound like I say: 'SecuRom is ok when you can uninstall it'. It's not ok at all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Puzz3D

SecuROM installs a shell extension that prevents Windows Explorer from deleting 16-bit executables. SecuROM is not removed when you uninstall the game, and it can cause other programs you may use to malfunction. In other words, compatibility issues can arise between SecuROM and other software, and you won't know that it's SecuROM that's causing the problem because it doesn't show up on your system as being installed. In fact, the game company conceals from the user that SecuROM is installed by their game. So, the user isn't even aware that SecuROM has been installed which makes it pretty damn hard to figure out why some program that it conflicts with isn't working.

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That is the reason why I will definately NOT buy or install Kingdoms or Empire.

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Originally Posted by Jochi Khan

That is the reason why I will definately NOT buy or install Kingdoms or Empire.

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.
Is it confirmed that Empire will be shipped with it?
.

.

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Originally Posted by TosaInu

Maybe it's time to focus on encouraging purchasing legal copies rather than devising harsh copy-protection.

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:yes:
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The most ridiculous thing is that copy protection has failed for 3 decades.
No copy protection has ever prevented any software from being distributed freely. Yet almost every new game/software comes with copy protection in one flavour or another. What's even more, the protections have gotten so nasty that they harass the legitimate customer while only those who get the black copy can enjoy the product to the full extend (minus MP in most cases).
When will they learn? :no: