Jailbreak in Gaza

And the walls came tumbling down. :sunny:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/...aza/index.html

The Israelis were starving the population of Gaza, depriving them of food and fuel, so the Palestinians did what people should do when locked up illegally - they broke out.

If the other Arab countries have any brains at all, they'll ship supplies to the Palestinians right away, but that might be expecting too much. In any case, this is a wonderful taste of freedom for a people who have had their freedom stolen from them for generations.

I'm sure right now Israel feels just like the Soviets did when they saw the first part of the wall coming down and their prisoner-peoples getting a taste of freedom. They must be going bonkers.

Good for them.

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Originally Posted by Beirut

And the walls came tumbling down. :sunny:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/...aza/index.html

The Israelis were starving the population of Gaza, depriving them of food and fuel, so the Palestinians did what people should do when locked up illegally - they broke out.

If the other Arab countries have any brains at all, they'll ship supplies to the Palestinians right away, but that might be expecting too much. In any case, this is a wonderful taste of freedom for a people who have had their freedom stolen from them for generations.

I'm sure right now Israel feels just like the Soviets did when they saw the first part of the wall coming down and their prisoner-peoples getting a taste of freedom. They must be going bonkers.

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Sorry, Beirut, I missed when the East Berliners were blowing up Soviet school children and when the Poles continually fired rockets into suburbs in Moscow. Could you refresh my memory there, or was that analogy simply for dramatic affect?

But then I imagine the East Berliners and Poles weren't treated as badly as the Palestinians by the Israelis with supplies being cut, economy starved and brought to collapse with little hope of ever restoring it, daily raids with innocent civilians as casualties, airstrikes, and kidnapping of government officials.
Controlling the media to make their actions harmless as opposed to the oppressed was done in either event I believe.
On the other hand my history of that era isn't all that great either.

I can imagine this kind of approach being of more use to Palestinian propaganda than firing mortars into Israel.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

Sorry, Beirut, I missed when the East Berliners were blowing up Soviet school children and when the Poles continually fired rockets into suburbs in Moscow.

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I hear they had their own problems back in the '40s.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

Could you refresh my memory there, or was that analogy simply for dramatic affect?

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I's a scoundrel, ain't I? ~:smoking:

In any case, the oppressed are free and the oppressors have lost control. I'm loving it!

The problem with this comparison would be that East Berliners had Staatssicherheit and Poles had communists of their own.
Oh, almost forgot to mention: and those insidious barbaric russkies gave many more lives away in their struggle against communism than any other nation. A sad fact that would be very inconvenient for many people to acknowledge

So, perhaps it is not correct to compare these issues.

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Originally Posted by Beirut

I'm sure right now Israel feels just like the Soviets did

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Excellent analogy!

The Soviets never did return the land they took from the Germans sixty years ago. And never will. Nor will the German refugees ever return.

~;p

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Originally Posted by Beirut

I'm sure right now Israel feels just like the Soviets did.

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So the Palestinians are the defeated Nazis, except they still, weekly, launch attacks against the civilians of Israel?

No, wait. I remember now that if one side is defeated in a war they started, they get a free moral pass to kill as many innocents, civilians, and wedding guests as they can for eternity.

You do know that Gaza is cut off because the rulers, Hamas, continually launch rockets into Israel? That if the scum bag terrorists actually ceased trying to kill as many Israeli people as they could, they wouldn't be in this situation? That its their persistence in attempted genocide that has led to their current state?

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The Soviets never did return the land they took from the Germans sixty years ago. And never will. Nor will the German refugees ever return.

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Lol!

CR

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

...they took from the Germans sixty years ago...

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Oh, dear. One should pity those who's gave his vote for herr hittler. It really had some consequences for them after all

BTW, they were not the only one who took the land from Germany. Winners usually take land from Germany when Germany's losing a war. Elsass-Lothringen would a fine example.

'tis but a joke, MiniMe. Not a political statement about the SU. I's just a scoundrel, teasing Noam 'Beirut' Chomsky a bit. ~;)

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

So the Palestinians are the defeated Nazis, except they still, weekly, launch attacks against the civilians of Israel?

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Well, it was some future PMs of Israel, not Palestine, who were killing Allied soldiers (like the Nazis did) back in WWII, so I'm not really sure where to go with that. I guess I better stick to South African analogies for Israel from now on, eh? Silly ol' me.

In any case, I hope all this leads to something positive.

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

'tis but a joke, MiniMe. Not a political statement about the SU. I's just a scoundrel, teasing Noah 'Beirut' Chomsky a bit. ~;)

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sorry for misreading, my fault entirely. Me got involved in a dispute on .twc recently and must have lost my sense of humor completely.
Damn, me thought to have enough will to abstain from these mudpit disputes over there! me's an idiot :wall:

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No, wait. I remember now that if one side is defeated in a war they started, they get a free moral pass to kill as many innocents, civilians, and wedding guests as they can for eternity.

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So the Palestinians started the war? Isn't this there land that's now got other people living on?

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You do know that Gaza is cut off because the rulers, Hamas, continually launch rockets into Israel?

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Do you know that they do that because of continious Israeli.. *some pages long of aggravating actions* .. actions.

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That if the scum bag terrorists actually ceased trying to kill as many Israeli people as they could, they wouldn't be in this situation?

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They are just people who are not ok with the loss of their land. Oh.. that's the definition of "scum bag terrorists" there?

'Their land'? Why any more so than third-generation Israelis living there now? Whatever it was sixty years ago, it's not theirs now.

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Originally Posted by Beirut

Well, it was some future PMs of Israel, not Palestine, who were killing Allied soldiers (like the Nazis did) back in WWII,

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And are they still doing it to this day?

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So the Palestinians started the war? Isn't this there land that's now got other people living on?

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Several Arab nations.

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Do you know that they do that because of continious Israeli.. *some pages long of aggravating actions* .. actions.

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Like giving control of Gaza back to Palestinian groups? And by Israeli actions, you mean like trying to stop the ceaseless rocket attacks on their civilians without slaughtering innocents?

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They are just people who are not ok with the loss of their land. Oh.. that's the definition of "scum bag terrorists" there?

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Hell yeah it is. Guess maybe they shouldn't have kept on launching wars on Israel, or they would have more land then they do today.

The support of supposedly anti-war types for the Palestinians is mind blowing. But I guess the left just followed the Soviet Union's dictates and haven't stopped.

CR

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'Their land'? Why any more so than third-generation Israelis living there now? Whatever it was sixty years ago, it's not theirs now.

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So you do admit it got "conquered"?
And basing on that, validate their resistance?

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Several Arab nations.

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Which war you're talking about?

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Like giving control of Gaza back to Palestinian groups? And by Israeli actions, you mean like trying to stop the ceaseless rocket attacks on their civilians without slaughtering innocents?

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No. No.

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Hell yeah it is. Guess maybe they shouldn't have kept on launching wars on Israel, or they would have more land then they do today.

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Define "resistance".. "launch war" ?

In threads like this the safest thing to do is

Stop - Drop - and Roll.

I am outta here kids - waaaaayy too hot :dizzy2:

(ED runs like the coward he is)

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Originally Posted by x-dANGEr

So the Palestinians started the war? Isn't this there land that's now got other people living on?

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

Several Arab nations.

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It's also interesting to note that the Palestinians never actually had a nation, and only started claiming that status for themselves in reaction to the foundation of Israel and when surrounding Arab 'brothers' did astonishingly little to take them in. They were perfectly content to leave the Palestinians to fight a proxy war against Israel for their own territorial ambitions, and leave the mess for the rest of the world to sort out.

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Originally Posted by x-dANGEr

So you do admit it got "conquered"?
And basing on that, validate their resistance?

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To the first, quite happily. Big mess all around largely caused by the Brits taking over, and the later Israelis capitalized on a situation in which the area was basically up for grabs. To the second, no. Israel is there now and is not going to leave, and is home by now to a native third generation (at least); in my mind that is enough justification for it to take measures against those that attack its sovereignty.

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Originally Posted by Geoffrey S

'Their land'? Why any more so than third-generation Israelis living there now? Whatever it was sixty years ago, it's not theirs now.

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vs

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Originally Posted by Shoe on other foot

'Their land'? Why any more so than ninety-generation Palestinians living there now? Whatever it was since Roman occupation, it's not theirs now.

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Consider that there are reports of Palestinians tending Olive trees that there ancestors planted and that some of these tress are dying from old age, methinks they may be firmly rooted to their land.

Apartheid. Holocaust references. Facism. Yes, those nasty Israelis deserve all the scorn in the world, don't they Beirut? Why won't they just let those Palestinians blow up children at school and shut up about it? Why won't they just go away? Why won't they just shut up and die?

In all the years of arguing this topic with you, I've never once heard you offer a solution that doesn't coincide with the Palestinian solution... kill all the Israelis. Hmmm, and somehow, the Israelis are the thugs.

All I know is that the news tonight showed film of Palestinians buying food, getting fuel, and a couple of guys hauling a nice old Honda motorcycle over the remnants of the wall into Gaza. One family was all dressed up, just walking around, enjoying being free for a while.

It looked great! :sunny:

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

Apartheid. Holocaust references. Facism. Yes, those nasty Israelis deserve all the scorn in the world, don't they Beirut? Why won't they just let those Palestinians blow up children at school and shut up about it? Why won't they just go away? Why won't they just shut up and die?

In all the years of arguing this topic with you, I've never once heard you offer a solution that doesn't coincide with the Palestinian solution... kill all the Israelis. Hmmm, and somehow, the Israelis are the thugs.

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It's fairly typical. I see it from both sides here actually.

Once again, both sides are at fault. The Israelis are starving the people of Gaza, while the government in Gaza allows and most likely funds rocket attacks in Israel. No one here is really in the right.

I guess pointless bickering about who has the moral high ground works better though than finding a solution.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

Apartheid. Holocaust references. Facism. Yes, those nasty Israelis deserve all the scorn in the world, don't they Beirut? Why won't they just let those Palestinians blow up children at school and shut up about it? Why won't they just go away? Why won't they just shut up and die?

In all the years of arguing this topic with you, I've never once heard you offer a solution that doesn't coincide with the Palestinian solution... kill all the Israelis. Hmmm, and somehow, the Israelis are the thugs.

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they´re both thugs....both sides in that problem have long ago lost the right to call them selfs the "good guys"....I say try to keep the explosions to a minimum...and that´s as good as it´s gonna get.

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Originally Posted by Beirut

All I know is that the news tonight showed film of Palestinians buying food, getting fuel, and a couple of guys hauling a nice old Honda motorcycle over the remnants of the wall into Gaza. One family was all dressed up, just walking around, enjoying being free for a while.

It looked great! :sunny:

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Yes, I'm sure it did. I don't really think anyone enjoys seeing innocent civilians suffer.

And all I know is:

1) Hamas has admitted they played up the blackout/crackdown aspects http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...cle%2FShowFull

and 2) More rockets landed in Israel from Gaza today.

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...s00/rocket.jpg

Sorry, unlike you, I don't feel like smiling.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

Apartheid. Holocaust references. Facism. Yes, those nasty Israelis deserve all the scorn in the world, don't they Beirut? Why won't they just let those Palestinians blow up children at school and shut up about it? Why won't they just go away? Why won't they just shut up and die?

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I think you'll be hard pressed to find any post where I said that.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

In all the years of arguing this topic with you, I've never once heard you offer a solution that doesn't coincide with the Palestinian solution... kill all the Israelis. Hmmm, and somehow, the Israelis are the thugs.

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I think you wil be hard pressed to find any post where I said that either.

Anything else?

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

And all I know is:

1) Hamas has admitted they played up the blackout/crackdown aspects http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...cle%2FShowFull

and 2) More rockets landed in Israel from Gaza today.

Sorry, unlike you, I don't feel like smiling.

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If we're going to start exchanging photo albums of attrocities, this is going to be a long thread. I can dig up hundreds that show the Israelis being, shall we say, less than diplomatic with their Palestinian neighbours.

I never said you advocate Hamas's exterminate all Jews policy. I said you've never offered an alternative, just that you agree with their conclusions. I've offered a 2-state solution as a compromise, and you've rejected it. You seem quite fixed on the idea that Jews must leave Israel. Where, according to superior powers of logic, should they go?

This will never get solved by politics. This ends when the country's youth look at each other and judge, not on the other persons religion, but on the content of each others character.* If the Palestinians are Ghettoed inside a wall(that bitter taste in your mouth is called hypocrisy. The remedy is to apologize and to tear down the wall) than the Israelis will see rockets instead of the people behind the wall. Rockets don't create friendships, people do.


*I'm on a MLK Jr. binge right now. Isreal could really benefit from a King Jr. like figure right now.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

I never said you advocate Hamas's exterminate all Jews policy. I said you've never offered an alternative, just that you agree with their conclusions. I've offered a 2-state solution as a compromise, and you've rejected it. You seem quite fixed on the idea that Jews must leave Israel.

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I think the founding of Isreal where a population already lived was criminal. No bones about that. But I have said in the past, more than once, that since they're there, they're there, and they're going to stay there.

A two state solution is the way. I've said that before as well. But that means an independant Palestine, not a slave state permanently under the Israeli yoke and gun, which is what Israel wants.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

You seem quite fixed on the idea that Jews must leave Israel.

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You'll be hard pressd to find where I ever said that either.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

Where, according to superior powers of logic, should they go?

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Superior powers of logic? Arf! I think we'd need AdrianII in here for that. :toff:

This will never get solved by politics. This ends when the country's youth look at each other and judge, not on the other persons religion, but on the content of each others character.* If the Palestinians are Ghettoed inside a wall(that bitter taste in your mouth is called hypocrisy. The remedy is to apologize and to tear down the wall) than the Israelis will see rockets instead of the people behind the wall. Rockets don't create friendships, people do.


*I'm on a MLK Jr. binge right now. Plus, Isreal could really benefit from a King Jr. like figure right now.

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To the first, quite happily. Big mess all around largely caused by the Brits taking over, and the later Israelis capitalized on a situation in which the area was basically up for grabs.

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Why should the Palestinian people take the hit when Britain promises and gives what it doesn't own?

Don, are you telling me that depriving Palestinians of fuel and food is somehow going to deter attacks by radicals? You think sanctions which starve a populace is somehow going to make the average person LIKE Israel more, and thus diminish terrorist threats? Or do you think that getting revenge is more important than actually working towards peace?

Gaza is an independentally controlled area. It's Palestine, if you're looking for a Res Publica to assign it to. Israel has no control there. What Israel has done is establish a wall where no weapons will pass from Egypt to Gaza. Sooner or later, when your neighbor continues to shell you, you try to limit his access to weaponry.

But if anybody read the link I posted (and for the record, don't let the name fool you, the Jerusalem Post is no Olmert apologist), Hamas has decreed as long as shipments are inspected, they'll consider that a boycott and no goods will be allowed.

This is, for lack of a better word, a self-inflicted 'famine', blamed on who else? Those filthy Jews, yet again.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

Gaza is an independentally controlled area. It's Palestine, if you're looking for a Res Publica to assign it to. Israel has no control there. What Israel has done is establish a wall where no weapons will pass from Egypt to Gaza. Sooner or later, when your neighbor continues to shell you, you try to limit his access to weaponry.

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Israel has built a wall to control the people. Period. They want the Palestinians subjegated. Anything less is unacceptable. If the Palestinians "go free", it will show that Israel has been repressing an entire people for generations. Keep them locked up, keep them looking and acting like savages, then they can brutalize them at will and save face with the excuse of, "Oh, but they want to kill us all. Poor, poor us!"

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

This is, for lack of a better word, a self-inflicted 'famine', blamed on who else? Those filthy Jews, yet again.

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A self-inflicted famine? :inquisitive:

That's as extraordinary a statement as I have seen in my five-years at the Org.

And would you please stop calling them filthy Jews. The three kindest, gentlest, most humane people I have ever known were all Jewish, and none of them were filthy in any way.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

Gaza is an independentally controlled area. It's Palestine, if you're looking for a Res Publica to assign it to. Israel has no control there. What Israel has done is establish a wall where no weapons will pass from Egypt to Gaza. Sooner or later, when your neighbor continues to shell you, you try to limit his access to weaponry.

But if anybody read the link I posted (and for the record, don't let the name fool you, the Jerusalem Post is no Olmert apologist), Hamas has decreed as long as shipments are inspected, they'll consider that a boycott and no goods will be allowed.

This is, for lack of a better word, a self-inflicted 'famine', blamed on who else? Those filthy Jews, yet again.

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:inquisitive: Hmm? Did YOU read the article? A) I'm not sure I trust the Jerusalem post on an issue regarding Palestinians, B) It never stated ANYWHERE that Hamas inflicted any kind of famine on the people, only blackouts, and C) ITS HAMAS' JOB TO HELP THE PEOPLE THERE! OF COURSE HE'S GOING TO WANT THE SANCTIONS LIFTED, PEOPLE ARE GOING WITHOUT FREAKIN' FOOD, WATER, AND GASOLINE! Would you not expect your own regional leader to stand up for you if you were in the Palestinian position? And before you even go on about Hamas not being elected, how far do you think he'd get if he didn't get support from the populace?

Sounds like problem solved then. Egypt can surely take care of the oppressed Palestinians that they care so deeply about and with Gaza being abandoned, there will be no one to bother the Israelis. That was easy- should've done it decades ago. :yes:

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

[quotes]
Consider that there are reports of Palestinians tending Olive trees that there ancestors planted and that some of these tress are dying from old age, methinks they may be firmly rooted to their land.

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Clever. It might have been more useful if I'd been arguing that the Palestinians don't have a right to the land, which I wasn't.

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Originally Posted by x-dANGEr

Why should the Palestinian people take the hit when Britain promises and gives what it doesn't own?

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They took the hit, just as an incredible amount of other people(s) did in the postcolonial period. The Israelis aren't going to move anytime soon; deal with it. You might notice that the more successful Third World areas are those that moved on from their past rather than engage in a futile rage in which civilians lose the most.

And as I pointed out earlier, the blame for the shoddy condition of Palestinians is certainly not solely at the doorstep of Israel. The humanitarian crisis has been prolonged, exacerbated and in many ways caused by the actions of surrounding Arab nations who over the decennia have quite cheerfully used the situation for the own (internal) political gains.

I might also add, I think similar accusations apply to a lot of the motives of foreign backers of Israel.

Edit: Xiahou, sounds like a plan. Build up the wall again and keep them with their supportive Arab brothers. ~;)

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

Sounds like problem solved then. Egypt can surely take care of the oppressed Palestinians that they care so deeply about and with Gaza being abandoned, there will be no one to bother the Israelis. That was easy- should've done it decades ago. :yes:

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Egypt should help the Palestinians. So should every Arab country. It is shameful that the Arabs left the Palestinians to suffer under the Israelis for so long just to use them for political gain. With all that oil money they have, the Arabs (Iran as well) should be building schools and hospitals in Gaza by the dozens. Granted, the Israelis will blow them up as soon as they're built, but at least building them is a good start.

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Originally Posted by Beirut

Israel has built a wall to control the people. Period. They want the Palestinians subjegated. Anything less is unacceptable. If the Palestinians "go free", it will show that Israel has been repressing an entire people for generations. Keep them locked up, keep them looking and acting like savages, then they can brutalize them at will and save face with the excuse of, "Oh, but they want to kill us all. Poor, poor us!"

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Geez, Beirut. Do you really think all that BS is real?

They built the wall to stop the Palestinians from sending suicide bombers into Israel. And guess what - it works. What have Hamas and Fatah done after the recent unilateral concessions by Israel? Continued the terrorism. What makes you think they'll stop before they kill all the Israelis? If they had the power Israel had over Palestine, they'd kill every Israeli.

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And would you please stop calling them filthy Jews.

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How nice of you only to slander Israelis as pure evil.

CR

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

How nice of you only to slander Israelis as pure evil.

CR

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How nice of you to only slander Palestinians as pure evil.

KK

@kk :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

Anyways, for you 'poor palestinians, they just want their land back', you are arguing an near exact example of a logical fallacy:

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Jane: "Did you hear about those terrorists killing those poor people? That sort of killing is just wrong."
Sue: "Those terrorists are justified. After all, their land was taken from them. It is morally right for them to do what they do."
Jane: "Even when they blow up busloads of children?"
Sue: "Yes."

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http://www.nizkor.org/features/falla...e-a-right.html

:laugh4:

CR

Ah wall? omghowcouldthey

Poor wall. :no:

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

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'Their land'? Why any more so than third-generation Israelis living there now? Whatever it was sixty years ago, it's not theirs now.

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vs

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Consider that there are reports of Palestinians tending Olive trees that there ancestors planted and that some of these tress are dying from old age, methinks they may be firmly rooted to their land.

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How about a third option: giving Rome/Latium to either the Palestinians or Israelis? The romans have been the major cause of anti-semitism since the roman era (being partially or indirectly involved in almost every single instance of persecution up to the 19th century), they have never been punished for it, and never attempted to repair the damages they caused. I think there's greater chances of forming a successful new state out of nothing in a place where there is a casus belli against the current holders of it, than where it is currently located. This is a struggle between two parties where both have (also from an outside objective point of view) very good reasons to kill the other party, and with both sides having very good reasons to refuse to ever give up. Such a conflict is both impossible to mediate in and impossible to end, no matter how much support is given to either or both parties. Choosing to support either is about as objective as choosing which football team to support in the leagues. Both sides aruge that the other is demonic because of their choice of weapons to fight with, rather than because of the moral substance of their actions, which is quite equal (or else, one side would eventually accept surrendering, as demonisation of an opponent stops working when you realize you are worse AND have suffered greatly - the latter has already happened, the former not). Not to mention that neither side can tolerate being economically weaker than the other after a peace treaty, since they can't trust each other after so many years of fighting, and thus have a very difficult chance of living peacefully next to each other forever, even if peace would come - a bad peace unacceptable to either side would be followed by new war. Neither side could trust a 3rd party neutral peace keeping force from the UN either, since all so-called neutral parties have always supported one side slightly more than the other. The borders are also hard to defend, the terrain favors offense and preemptive striking over defense, making war more likely if trust can not be established. The involvement of the rest of the world is also absurd - both sides get huge sums of money to keep creating more weapons to slaughter each other: a Nash equilibrium putting us back at the same result as if neither side was supported in relative measures, but with more weaponry and death on both sides in absolute measures. That little piece of dirty soil is not worth risking a world war over, not to mention how many neutrals and outside parties that have already been killed by both sides for saying "the wrong things", not to mention the civilians on both sides that die every week. Only way to end the conflict is to find another piece of land for either side, land which is acceptable to the one who receives it, and there's a good excuse to take it from the current holder. Would be nice to see anyone with sufficient power having the guts to do the right thing. As it is now, all who are involved in the conflict are put under too heavy stress to think clearly, and all serious neutral parties trying to mediate have been murdered because on both sides there are smaller militant organizations who don't want peace. Perhaps time to put up an ultimatum, or do as good old Solomon and the baby...

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Originally Posted by Beirut

Jailbreak in Gaza

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Does that mean that they're criminals?

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

That its their persistence in attempted genocide that has led to their current state?

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So......

In other words, you mean that a crime made by the few justifies the punishment of the many?

If one guy commits murder, it's OK to jail 15 people?

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Originally Posted by Somebody Else

Does that mean that they're criminals?

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Don't have to be criminal to end up in jail ~;)

And as always Israelis become [insert adjective] Jews, murdering suicide bombers become freedom fighters, a debate becomes a series of disconnected attempts at justifying murder on either side, and I become rather bored...

I'm glad Hosni Mubarak isn't being an ass about it this time, helping the Palestinians is something that not even our lazy middle-eastern governments care about.

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Originally Posted by Geoffrey S

And as always Israelis become [insert adjective] Jews, murdering suicide bombers become freedom fighters, a debate becomes a series of disconnected attempts at justifying murder on either side, and I become rather bored...

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Why do you hate freedom? :inquisitive:
Is that an attempt to stifle free speech? Are we here to entertain you? ~;)

That said, I do think the Palestinians have every right in the world to bomb Israel into the Pacific ocean and after that they have every right to take revenge on the UK who put the Israelis there in the first place, then they should nuke the US for supporting the UK and Israel, then Europe for trading with both and if they still feel a bit sad afterwards they can kill every Asian because they sold everybody their cheap goods. If that doesn't make up for their suffering I'd have to say that they're quite demanding but since I wouldn't exist anymore at that point, I won't have to think about that. :2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

@kk :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

Anyways, for you 'poor palestinians, they just want their land back', you are arguing an near exact example of a logical fallacy:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/falla...e-a-right.html

:laugh4:

CR

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Hmm, yes. Now I think I understand your position if you're Israel.

"CR, sir, we've news that Hamas rebels have fired rockets into Israeli territory and killed eight of our citizens. What do we do?

"Well, its obvious, isn't it? We're going to carpet bomb the area they may have come from and kill about 50 or so Palestinians. Then build an extension of the wall over where a bunch of houses used to be. Oh, and just to make sure they hate us nice and good and can get plenty of sympathizers who'll join Hamas, lets put some sanctions on them so we can starve the rest of them so they have no food or water or gas. That'll teach 'em nice and good to not mess with us!"

:rolleyes:

CR, perhaps you haven't heard, but, believe it or not, the vast majority of Palestinians are just mostly regular people, trying to support their families and earn a decent living. Amazingly enough, they aren't all foaming at the mouth, crazed, trying for a mass extinction of Israel. Yes, there are some crazies, but all Israel's heavy handed policies do is give those crazies more ammo to work with and turn more and more of moderate muslims against them.

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Originally Posted by kamikhaan

CR, perhaps you haven't heard, but, believe it or not, the vast majority of Palestinians are just mostly regular people, trying to support their families and earn a decent living. Amazingly enough, they aren't all foaming at the mouth, crazed, trying for a mass extinction of Israel. Yes, there are some crazies, but all Israel's heavy handed policies do is give those crazies more ammo to work with and turn more and more of moderate muslims against them.

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Who would have thought, well let me present my masterplan for peace, stop backing Hamas and stop firing firecrackers. chopchop hadihadi nobelprice for peace don't have to wrap it up I'll just take it like that.

There is no justification for any type of attrocity commited to human beings. It's as simple as that. Instead of every party involved in the conflict claiming to have some sort of moral justification for their despicable behavior, it would be better if all would just stop their madness.

Guess that's too much to ask, eh :shrug:

Stupid, naive Andres who still believes in goodness and simple solutions :no:

Why do you want to tell other people how to live their life, Andres? :inquisitive:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

On a serious note, you're right.

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

Geez, Beirut. Do you really think all that BS is real?

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I absolutely believe that the Isreali government see it as in their own best interests to keep the Palestinians a subjegated people.

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

They built the wall to stop the Palestinians from sending suicide bombers into Israel. And guess what - it works. What have Hamas and Fatah done after the recent unilateral concessions by Israel? Continued the terrorism. What makes you think they'll stop before they kill all the Israelis? If they had the power Israel had over Palestine, they'd kill every Israeli.

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No, they built the wall to stop the Palestinians from going into Egypt. If you're speaking about the other wall they built, they built that to keep out attackers and to steal parts of the West Bank.

By the by, what is this ongoing illusion some people have about "The death of every living Jew!" whenever someone talks about the Palestinans having rights? Israel is a military superpower. They have nuclear weapons. They have a world class air force. They have access to the top tiers of military and spy technology. They are masters at infiltration, espionage, psychological warfare, assasination, interrogation (Hello? Torture?), and for the past few decades have had an American Express card with a $30 billion limit and no monthly payments.

All this, and if Joe Palestine, who lives in a bombed out building with no electricity or water is free to go for a walk with his kids in Egypt and buy some ice cream, it's the death of Isreal? C'mon.

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

How nice of you only to slander Israelis as pure evil.

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I thought it was pretty big of me. :smug:

Why do people mix "israelis" together with "israeli government"?

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Originally Posted by Beirut

I absolutely believe that the Isreali government see it as in their own best interests to keep the Palestinians a subjegated people.

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That is true, and it is even more true for their arab 'brothers'.

Anyways, for you 'poor palestinians, they just want their land back', you are arguing an near exact example of a logical fallacy

do you not see the irony here ?

The isrealis subscribe as much to this as the palestinians.

one for you 'poor isrealis they're just defending themselves' you are arguing an near exact example of a logical fallacy

http://www.nizkor.org/features/falla...e-a-right.html

Theres not much morale high ground for either side to claim the one thing i will say is that Isreal as a country can control its actions things like building the wall bombing palestinians is all done from the top down in an organised command, The Palestinians are much less organised and in control of thier activities.

for example in recent times in Ireland with the peace deals trying to deal with the IRA was difficult, even if the leaders of the IRA wanted to halt terrorist activities they couldn't keep everyone in line, most recent example being the bank robbery not long ago this is after the IRA supposedly gave up criminal activities years ago. But the British goverment had to be above this, we could have turned time back 20 years and say look they're doing this, this and this so we have to defend ourselves, but goverments must be held to a higher standard than terrorist organisations.

i do realise hamas is a goverment (technically) but they're army and such like come from thier terrorist group rather than thier goverment.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

That is true, and it is even more true for their arab 'brothers'.

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Agreed. The Palestinians have precious few friends anywhere.

But I'm one of them. :sunny:

I agree. The Israelis treat the Palestinians like garbage. They took their land. They then took more land. Then they stated settling more land and set up outposts with armed citizens. They treat the Palestinians like wild animals.

Just like the British treated the Irish. I am very sympathetic with the Palestinians. The idea that we (The U.S.) support a country that excludes people based on their Religion is absurd.

It is safe to say that I would break out of the imposed prison if I couldn't buy food.

I'm a friend of the Palestinians also. Just like I supported the I.R.A. (until diplomacy started to work). Diplomacy doesn't work with Israel.

The simple facts remain: It's the Palestinians land, whether "Palestine" exists or not. The Palestinians are under illegal occupation by people that are technically immigrants, this is why they have the right to rebel. The terrorism is a different thing to the rebellion against the occupation. The terrorism exists as a direct result of the founding of the Israeli state, the occupation and brutal crushing of rebellion. Terrorism doesn't just appear out of thin air and most western countries seem to have very little understanding of it's causes as most are not exposed to it. Few western countries have suffered in the way that Palestine, Iraq and Afghanistan have, so unless you're from one of these countries you're unlikely to understand as to why people become terrorists. These countries were pretty much terrorist free until the west got involved and started invading and dropping bombs.

Well I am not a friend of the palestinian people, I am too old for imaginary friends the palestinians don't exist they are arabs who migrated there. Nobody owes them anything at all. If people care so much go to Iran where millions of arabs are being deported and live in much worse conditions, this is peanuts. I have zero sympathy for either side, but I absolutily detest everyone who wants to make a point out of it.

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Originally Posted by caravel

The simple facts remain: It's the Palestinians land, whether "Palestine" exists or not. The Palestinians are under illegal occupation by people that are technically immigrants, this is why they have the right to rebel. The terrorism is a different thing to the rebellion against the occupation. The terrorism exists as a direct result of the founding of the Israeli state, the occupation and brutal crushing of rebellion. Terrorism doesn't just appear out of thin air and most western countries seem to have very little understanding of it's causes as most are not exposed to it. Few western countries have suffered in the way that Palestine, Iraq and Afghanistan have, so unless you're from one of these countries you're unlikely to understand as to why people become terrorists. These countries were pretty much terrorist free until the west got involved and started invading and dropping bombs.

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Do you believe there exists a justification for, let's say, letting explode a bus filled with people, children included?

To make things clear: I don't think either site in this conflict is "right" or "wrong", they have both done despicable things.

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Originally Posted by Andres

Do you believe there exists a justification for, let's say, letting explode a bus filled with people, children included?

To make things clear: I don't think either site in this conflict is "right" or "wrong", they have both done despicable things.

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Think about it like this.

Guy A is on top of a hill. guy B walks up next to him. Guy A says hi to guy B. Guy B then throws him off of the top of the hill and plants a flag stating that the top of the hill belongs to guy B - not guy A because he never planted a flag. When guy A protests, guy B starts moving down the hill and hitting guy A. Guy B goes ballistic. From the bottom of the hill, guy A starts throwing rocks at guy B. Guy B shoots guy A. Guy A shoots guy B. Back and Forth.

World Policeman comes over and tells guy A and guy B that they are being ridiculous. World Policeman tells Guy B that guy A has a right to stand in peace at the bottom of the hill without being shot. World policeman tells guy A that guy B has the right to stand at the top of the Hill without being shot because guy B has been through alot and his ancestors stood there 2,000 years ago. Guy A protests, saying that it his ancestors stood there for 2000 years and that he was recently thrown off of the top of the hill and punched and kicked.

But world policeman didn't hear Guy A because he was too busy listening to his police radio.

Years and years have gone by. Guy A and guy B both have sons and they are still at it. But now, guys B have bigger guns and guys A are covered in dirt and starving..

the palestinians don't exist they are arabs who migrated there

like the anglo saxons who migrated to the bit of land to the north west of europe and insist on calling it britian

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Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff

Think about it like this.

Guy A is on top of a hill. guy B walks up next to him. Guy A says hi to guy B. Guy B then throws him off of the top of the hill and plants a flag stating that the top of the hill belongs to guy B - not guy A because he never planted a flag. When guy A protests, guy B starts moving down the hill and hitting guy A. Guy B goes ballistic. From the bottom of the hill, guy A starts throwing rocks at guy B. Guy B shoots guy A. Guy A shoots guy B. Back and Forth.

World Policeman comes over and tells guy A and guy B that they are being ridiculous. World Policeman tells Guy B that guy A has a right to stand in peace at the bottom of the hill without being shot. World policeman tells guy A that guy B has the right to stand at the top of the Hill without being shot because guy B has been through alot and his ancestors stood there 2,000 years ago. Guy A protests, saying that it his ancestors stood there for 2000 years and that he was recently thrown off of the top of the hill and punched and kicked.

But world policeman didn't hear Guy A because he was too busy listening to his police radio.

Years and years have gone by. Guy A and guy B both have sons and they are still at it. But now, guys B have bigger guns and guys A are covered in dirt and starving..

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~:confused:

Is that "yes" or "no" ?

Guy B is still alive though, and so is guy A for some reason that defies all logic. I wonder how it would be if it was the other way around. Pitytude fits palestinians like a glove must be comforting in way to be without any prospects nothing like a bit of fatalism.

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Originally Posted by Andres

~:confused:

Is that "yes" or "no" ?

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It didn't make sense? damn.

Yes I support the Palestinians and the children of the Israelis who robbed them of their land.

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Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly

like the anglo saxons who migrated to the bit of land to the north west of europe and insist on calling it britian

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Well they went and insist on calling in Palestina but forgot they are with too many to make their precious little desert sustainable. Let's go oldschool, working land, raising cattle, pretty basic things. Never could it work, and it never did most came later. If they want a state they should be able actually be a state, but that would mean have a nice starvation, a little modesty would be splendid.

I wonder how it would be if it was the other way around.

So you wonder how it would be if palestinians had the best land, most of the water, some powerful friends and one the best armys in the world, well lets think on that shall we ?

They wouldn't be anywhere near as angry im sure, full stomach, clean water and a warm bed. Control of thier own destiny lots of people seem to get angry about this one.

So the shoes on the other foot the palestinians have almost everything and the isrealis have nothing, so whats going to happen ? well nothing, they have everything! you only get these extremists wanting thier extermination because they have nothing, some well fed palestinian with a nice job, family and a house isn't going to be intrested in suicide bombing, take away all his prospects and you'd have a person capable of much worse actions

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Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly

So you wonder how it would be if palestinians had the best land, most of the water, some powerful friends and one the best armys in the world, well lets think on that shall we ?

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We don't have to think about it because they did have that, quite the badboy that Nasser guy and his bouncing allies. Gambled and lost, not going to feel sorry for them, who pity's Germany after all. So now we will have to keep feeding them because their arab friends that care so deeply about them won't, any state they get will be no more then a zoo.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

We don't have to think about it because they did have that, quite the badboy that Nasser guy and his bouncing allies. Gambled and lost, not going to feel sorry for them, who pity's Germany after all. So now we will have to keep feeding them because their arab friends that care so deeply about them won't, any state they get will be no more then a zoo.

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you seem to be talking about the arab-isreal war, this is not what i was reffering to.

you said I wonder how it would be if it was the other way around.

which i assumed meant the current situation in reversal rather than the situation some 30 odd years ago. and i'd like to point out that that was arab states rather than palestinians, though palestinians joined up with the invasion AFAIK.

In the current situation reversed i don't think the palestinians would do anything different from the israelis

Well then there wouldn't be any jews in current Israel.

Vis a vis the idea that 'The Palestinians are being punished for the crimes of a few' - it is the Palestinians that elected Hamas, who's goal is to destroy Israel.

It's not a few crazy people launching the rockets into Israel. It is the government the Palestinians chose for themselves. The terrorists are the government.

Israel didn't 'steal' land from the Palestinians; they bought it and Israel was one country out of several formed from the ruins of the Ottoman Empire.

The Palestinians have systematically violated the agreements they have reached with Israel. They started this current cycle of violence.

Has Israel done wrong - certainly. But Hamas and Fatah could choose peace, and they do not.

CR

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Originally Posted by Geoffrey S

And as always Israelis become [insert adjective] Jews, murdering suicide bombers become freedom fighters, a debate becomes a series of disconnected attempts at justifying murder on either side, and I become rather bored...

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Indeed.

We seem to be seeing eye to on this.

I keep wanting to post replies to both sides on this, but I just stop myself and decide it's really not worth the aggravation.

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Originally Posted by Andres

Do you believe there exists a justification for, let's say, letting explode a bus filled with people, children included?

To make things clear: I don't think either site in this conflict is "right" or "wrong", they have both done despicable things.

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No I don't think there ever is a justification for killing any civilians either through terrorist attacks of any kind or through bombings/rocket attacks as Israel has done in the past in built up civilian areas while trying to take out terrorist leaders.

Hate breeds hate, and this is the problem here. This kind of terrorism gets itself ingrained into the culture and has be pulled out from the roots. The more Israel retaliate and attack the more hatred that is generated and the more young men (and young women) joining the ranks of the terrorist groups.

This problem will never be solved in any other way except through determined diplomacy, all past efforts have fizzled out when Israel have lost patience. Some kind of settlement has to be found. This should take the form of a seperate internationally recognised Palestinian state (whether they're capable to run it or farm it or whatever is not the issue, but they need their own state). There will always be rotten elements within the Palestinian state that will push for return to the old ways. Israel has always been ready to use these incidents as a pretext to reinvade Palestinian areas and renew hostilities. The old claim that the Palestinian Authority is not doing enough to contain the extremists and terrorists is recycled again and again.

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

Vis a vis the idea that 'The Palestinians are being punished for the crimes of a few' - it is the Palestinians that elected Hamas, who's goal is to destroy Israel.

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A flawed argument, as in desperate times equally desperate people will vote for the extremes. Also it was not all of the Palestinians that voted for Hamas in the same way that all Americans did not vote for Bush.

Whoever said genocide wasn't the answer is a fool. Kill the side that is less hostile to us.

Since this thread is based on emotion I might as well throw mine in. Given enough time no one will care.

Mind you none of this would have happen if Israel hadn't handed the land back to its "native" inhabitants.

(Last edit) There is no reason here thanks to the opening post.

Hamas and the terrorists are still supported by the people since Israel is still trying to expand and colonize Palestine further. The wall is often placed deep within what is officially palestine territory and there are several places entirely within palestine territory that are still occupied. Like Hebron, 400 settlers, 1100 soldiers to guard them.
No wonder the Palestians are still andry and still feel like they are fighting a war.

The Israeli government is imo still supported since they convinced the Israeli people that if they weaken for just the tiniest amount, they will all be killed by angry Arabs. Have you ever seen footage of Israeli soldiers guarding the wall ? Most of the ones I saw looked embarresed to be there. They have to be inhuman towards kids (who are not allowed to go the hospital if their papers aren't perfectly in order, even if they're bleeding half to death), and imo it kills most of them inside. I've heard a mother of a young man who was killed in a suicide attack say that she understands where the hatred from the Palestinians come from.

Both sides feel they have to be strong and tough, both sides support cruel and violent regimes. They have more in common than they'd ever want to admit :bow: