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Why aren't there any? In both my campaigns with rome and carthage i lost an island to the oponent becouse i couldn't recruit any units.
I dunno if there are any units in the higher MIC, but i'm wondering why aren't any local levys?
Were they bad fighters, or the EB never thought of including them?
I'm pretty sure i've read that the Carthaginians used Sardinian units.
Any feedback would be apriciated:clown:
There was a unit planned for that area but it never got made. I think there was an arguement over what exactly they would be like, since there was little info about them. There was talk about getting them into v1.1, but I don't think that ever got done...
Well, on Corsica I can train some minor Greek units as the Romani.
I think Hoplitai Haploi (Greek Levy Hoplites) and Akontistai (Hellenic Skirmishers) are the only ones. On Sardinia though I can´t train anything expect ships and agents, even though I have the highest MIC. Though I´m not sure if that changes with the Marian reforms.
But really, I think you should at least be able to recruit some militia units from either the Greek or Punic colonies on Sardinia, perhaps even some of Nuraghe.
Of course, I can understand if the Romans can´t recruit Punic militas, and perhaps there weren´t enough Greek colonies to recruit from, so if that is indeed the case, then I am okay with it, as i seem to recall being able to recruit Poeni Militia as Karth´astdim. and of course, if there isn´t enough info on the Nuraghe´s warfare then it´s pretty hard to include them.
Is Tanit still around?
He was the one that talked about the unit and I got info for him...
He checks in from time to time, he's busy with school...Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarax
Certainly not. The Romans had much trouble in getting the hinterland of these Islands under controll for centuries. I think that at least Akontistai and Haploi should be available on Sardinia too.Quote:
Originally Posted by anubis88
Sardinians weren't bad fighters at all.
In fact, Sardinia was sort of mini-iberia for the romans in terms of conquest.
The native population in the mountainous region of barbagia (the balares and other "sardi pelliti") kept fighting the romans in guerrilla-style for over a century.
Romans had to resort to forest fires and wardogs to successfully penetrate the interior, which remained unsafe until early imperial times.
Then shouldn´t there be some minor units from Sardinia? At least as small rebel stacks appearing. It might be hard to say exactly how they fought, but perhaps it´s possible to guess with some certainity. Maybe just one single unit with a couple of javelins, no armour and a spear or whatever they most likely used. Please? It would be really cool I think.
Maybe something like the Balroae (Caledonian Skirmishers), I know they are located far away from each other, but the Balroae is a prime example of a weak but annoying guerrila unit.
I know there have been significant excavations and such on Sardinia of the Nuraghi towers, and one (me) would suspect that the archeologist would have found things like arrowheads, spearpoints, or other sorts of things that are often found near ancient important symbolic sites. Of course, I know very little on the matter, and I am mostly speculating.
But still, everyone must agree that picturing Sardinia as a completely peaceful island once taken by the Romani is slightly historicaly incorrect.
Ah but if the natives are'nt friendly they ain't going to join your army!
Yeah, but it would be cool even if you could only fight against them. Besides, I can always bribe a couple, and then give them garrison duty in Siberia.
And that´s if they´re nice.
Hallo, I'm Sardinian and very fond of history especially Sardinian one. I'm sorry for my English, I don't speak very well. I want to give my contribution at this speech talking you about the Sardinian Units creation.
Recent research identify warriors of “nuraghi” with Bronze age sea people called “Shardana”, that in 1200 a.C. attacked Egypt and destroying Hittite Empire.
In the 540 B.C. sardinian army defeated the General Malco Carthaginian one composed by 80.000 men. Even Carthaginians had never conquered the hinterland of Sardinia
In second Punic War, Sardinian-Punic (inhabitant of coastline) and the Sardinian of hinterland army joined for fighting roman one but during the battle they were defeated (General Ampsicora, battle of Cornus 215 A.c.). After the battle, Sardinian resistance continued as guerrillas for several century. In general sources talk about Sardinians as strong warriors (they probably joined Pharaoh real guard).
Bronze statuettes depict different types of nuraghe warriors:
Archers was armed, with a bow to double curving. the bow was in a position to hitting its targets longest distance. For this its abiliity, the shardana archers used a directional auction in order to know the direction of the wind. The Shardana archers had armour,and horned helmet of bronze.
archer with bow double curved
https://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?...0orantemj9.jpg
archer with directional auction
https://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?...irzionajm7.jpg
archer at horse
https://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?...0divinoep5.jpg
archer with sword
https://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?...arco20eyr7.jpg
heavy infantry it was distinguished, in swordman and man with "virga sardesca". both armed with, bronze helmet and armour. The swordman besides were equip with a circular shield. The shield had to the center a "umbone"(it was the element centers them of the shield that the Greeks called "omphalos") and it was made with bronze slabs. they had various types of sword.
swordman with shield
https://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?...onspadafc2.jpg
https://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?...cornutonr6.jpg
https://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?image=faqq10uq7.jpg
One type it was the great sword to shape "of leaf of bay" or of other shape. The great sword extracted from the scabbard that was held in the shoulder like the japanese katana. An other type was the small swords probably from launch.
https://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?...ronzo20lj7.jpg
Particular warriors was armed with “virga sardesca”.It was a bronze auction much thick one finished with aims curve. the historical sources (it came used from the sardinian also in the middle age) asserts that frightening one was an arm much but of it the use in not konwn.
https://img90.imageshack.us/my.php?i...img0018mh4.jpg
besides the cavalry it was composed from wagons like the old Egyptians as one is looked at statue of bronze to the museum of Cagliari.
finally every warrior carried a dagger in the chest. the dagger had one typicall hilt with the cross guard to right angle. together to horned helmet it is the main symbol of the nuragic warrior
a soldier with sling and dagger
https://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?...bolierern0.jpg
a head tribe with dagger and main sword
https://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?...pugnalerx0.jpg
As far as I know, the Nuraghi have never been confirmed to be connected with the Shardana, and even if they were it´s not certain that the Nuraghi would have keept all those things, and certainly chariots would have been mentioned somewhere, at least the romans usually mentioned them when they had defeated an army using them. Also, doesn´t Strabo describe the natives of Sardinia as rather savage compared to greeks, and armed with only a small leather shield an knife? Of course he might be wrong, I really don´t know much about this, though I find it kinda wierd that Sardinia is part of the regiosn required to take as Koinon Hellenon, yet you can´t recruit any units there. Just seems kind wierd.
Actually I didn´t even bother reading the new post in this thread when I saw Tom0 had made it. One-liners are all the does.
Anyway, can someone of the EB team answer mine and Dedalonur´s theory´s please, I´d really like to know if some Sardinia units will be included in the future, wether they are Nuraghi, Greek or anything else.
Excavations and local historians shown two main things about Sardinia:
1) Most warriors used by Carthage weren't exactly natives but mixed at best (not unlike liby-phoenicians) and they were usually integrated in the various units without being a distinguished corps.
2) Recent excavations in nuragical sites in barbagia (interior Sardinia, where the "real" native tribes were) have shown that nuragic warriors were extremely conservative in warfare, with unpublished material showing pieces of an iron panoply that was basically a copy of the bronze age ones.
So, there are two possible choices about Sardinia:
1) giving them basic punic "civic" units like the citizen militia and cavalry
2) having a medium-high tier native unit representing mercenaries from the interior tribes, aka the Sardi Pelliti (which were usually Balares and other similar tribes), even though the recruitment should be severely restricted as they were fiercely independent to the point that they briefly owned the whole island during the mercenary war (before the roman invasion).
I'm going to add my 2 cents here, although I am far from having any sort of expert knowledge on the subject. I concur with Zarax's second conclusion ...
2) having a medium-high tier native unit representing mercenaries from the interior tribes, aka the Sardi Pelliti (which were usually Balares and other similar tribes), even though the recruitment should be severely restricted as they were fiercely independent to the point that they briefly owned the whole island during the mercenary war (before the roman invasion).
I believe this would be the most accurate representation of the Islanders fierce independence yet still allow some "cool unit" playability for everyone. By everyone I rather selfishly refer to us Western Mediterrean fans - aka. the non-greek influenced part of the map.
I guess the EB team therefore has to decide if they have enough unit slots AND enough unit information to decide if any of these units can and will be included.
Dedalonur9 has posted some interesting pics. Dedalonur9, do you have any links/sources for us to read? Or any one else for that matter?
Sidenote: I am currently playing a Romani campaign and using many of Konny's House Rules, if you are famaliar with them - adjusted to my tastes of course. He has posted some helpful maps and other info. I walked (well actually stormed) into Sardinia knowing full well that there is no way to recruit units there - but w/o Konny's maps - I would have dumped a LOT of mnai into that islands MIC for no return. Bring your own garrison units for now!
Well Nuraghi were planned for EB I Sadly they probably won't make it in anymore however. I suspect them to be on the EB II unitlist, and thus probably will make it in.
General Lappo you have reason, the identity between Sardinian and Shardana still is not accepted from all, but always more scholars. I have read recently various book in wich the author it is in agreement with such teory (for example, Brian H. Warmington, History of Carthage). The similarity of the name, helmet, shield and dress of the Sardinian statue to illustrations in the Mendinet Habu Wall panels strongly suggests part of the Sea Peoples forces came from Sardinia.
http://www.artsales.com/ARTistory/An...a_peoples.html
http://i-cias.com/e.o/sea_people.htm
http://www.minoanatlantis.com/Origin_Sea_Peoples.php
Moreover you keep in mind these 3 points:
- the old sardinian were navigators like demonstrate the statues in bronze found again in Sardinia.
https://img340.imageshack.us/my.php?...driawebvk4.jpg
https://img504.imageshack.us/my.php?...uragicazv9.jpg
- in Sardinian it has been found again a stone whit the written "SRDN", must it read like SHER-DAN, an another name of the shardana.
- the old theory is supported from less and less studious. they thought that the Shardana came from from Sardi (or Sardes) in Turkey. this does not agree with the egyptian sources. They assert that the Shardana came from the Islands to the center of the great green in the west.
the greeks saw like barbarians all that that was not greek, made exception for the Egyptian and the Romans. the relationship between greeks and sardinians is wrapped in the myth and from legends, like as an example, Talos monster, or Heracles, Dedalo and others.
For the myth Dedalo came in Sardinia to construct the "dedaleia" that is the Nuraghi. In truth they came only constructed from the Sardininians. The metallurgy is present in Sardinia from the 1500 A.C.. Is obvious from the same statues that the sardinians did not fight with shield of leather and daggers. A Egyptian clergyman said to Solone that <the Greeks were like children of forehead to the history>.....
historically Erodoto speaks about a colonization plan of the Sardinia that, but, did not have place. it is therefore of all the impossible one to obtain Greek troops in Sardinia of whichever kind.
In Roman age the revolts were numerous, the greater ones go from the first roman attempt to conquer the island in the 241 A.C. to the 6 D.c. Of were one upset resistance more than that one of the sanniti ones. They were work of the Balari (Barbagia) and the Iliensi (Gallura), but some times also of the coastal populations.
in the sources they do not come described the ways with which these populations fought(we have lost the two last book of Tito Livio in which he spoke himself about these revolts) . It is but improbable that they fought like the Carthaginian. Above all Ilienses and Balares, they are from thinking to the war traditions to the age of the bronze.
As far as the Legionaries troops, not being a island a lot lived, and since the citizens had not had citizenship (obtained after the reform of Caracalla), the number was always lowest and enters in statistics single in the successive age to Adrian.
As far as auxiliary ones, the sardinians supplied (like sardinia island) 3 cohort, while like province (Sardinia and Corsica) 6 cohort, 3 for both islands with a great number of the Sardinian on the Course.
The "cohors I Sardorum" was allocated to Cagliari in the first three centuries d.C., while the "cohors II Sardorum" founded at the time of Adrian, was allocated to Sur Dyuab, approximateley 100 km to south of Algeri.
I am trying new material hardly I will have it I will show you the imagesQuote:
Originally Posted by Disciple of Tacitus
Some nice work, Dedalonur9. It seems the islands will always have an aura of mystery to them. I enjoyed the links to the Sea People information, but doubt they would suffice for the EB team. Regardless, it is background information and - in my view - you cite some interesting - and I assume prove-able (that in itself is always hard in this field) facts that DO apply to the game.
I had no idea that Rome had raised some Auxillary Cohorts from Sardinia and Corisica. Am I correct in understanding that they were raised 300 AD (after Christ)?
Well, Moros implies that the "Nuraghi" unit will be in the next release. Let's hope so.
Actually, Moros said that they won´t be in the next release, but probably in EB 2. So if you´re still around in 2-3 years you can possibly play with unique Sardinia units Dedalonur9. It´s all about patience.
Ouch. Just re-checked the post. You are correct. 2-3 years?!? Well, I do believe I've been playing EB for 2 years, so what is another 2 years? I might actually get to play through all the factions - perhaps even the dreaded Yellow Annoyance
Quote:
Originally Posted by dedalonur9
Can't say I'm entirely convinced. Even the (speculative) links you posted and what little I've read on the subject suggest that, at most, part of what are identified as Sea Peoples later conquered and settled in Sardinia. There are shared elements of archeological finds, but not enough to link Sardinia as the source of the Shardana rather than the other way around.Quote:
Originally Posted by dedalonur9
Greeks colonised "Sardo" in the 6th cent. BCE. The colonies there didn't fare well and were abandoned after the war of Greek colonists against combined Etruscan-Phoenician armies. Trade posts of Syracusians aka "Syrakosios Limen" which were expanded into full blown colonies are mentioned in the southern part of "Sardo" aka Sardenia in the time prior to EB's start. Agathokles built it/them. Hence Hoplites are perfectly normal for Sardenia.Quote:
historically Erodoto speaks about a colonization plan of the Sardinia that, but, did not have place. it is therefore of all the impossible one to obtain Greek troops in Sardinia of whichever kind.
Keravnos, do you guys have any hard evidence for such a level of colonization?
AFAIK the greeks didn't fare well at all in Sardinia (unlike corsica, where they had at least some colonization) and they were pretty much all driven out by the game start, with maybe the exception of Olbia and Turris.
Natives in the north and carthaginian in the south weren't too keen of having greek settlers messing around.
Unless we're talking about something like the red sea hoplites (aka natives trained and equipped by greek settlers) I don't think there are the basis for a greek based AOR.
IIRC Sardinia was divided in different zones of influence, with the south firmly into punic and puno-nuragic hands, the interior was pretty much made inaccessible by the sardi pelliti tribes, some iberian/balearic influence on the east and a few greek outposts in the north.
This would result either in a huge local pool of units or in a very-tiny-to-nothing one, depending on the criteria.
BTW, ancient greeks used to call the island iknussa, IIRC sardenia became common only after the 1st punic war with the famous "sardus venales" motto about the fact that sardinian slaves were untrustworthy and known for killing the owner if they had a chance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by General Appo
https://img259.imageshack.us/img259/...onzettohe8.jpg
I think your sources are really old. The link between Sardinians and Shardana (Srdn) has been proved by archaeologist Ugas, professor of prehistory and protohistory in Italy -and by other scholars too.- About Strabonis, Herodot and others, you must consider that they ignore everything about Sardinia (i.e. no Latin author writes about the over 12.000 castles built by Sardinians and still existing in that period - see "Barumini" or "Losa" castle) and their words are probably wrong. In some cases, rumours and propaganda.
https://img113.imageshack.us/img113/...aruminicv6.jpg
In addition, it is well known that there was a bad relation between Sardinians and Latins/Greeks of the time. This fact is confirmed by Cicero (i.e. read Scaurus' trial) and by other Latin writers.
About Sardinian chariots we have many pictures, but Sardinians probably utilized them in other battles and before fighting the Romans.
Sardinian chariot and Egyptian chariot.
https://img218.imageshack.us/img218/4891/carricw5.jpg
Sardinian horse and Hittite horse
https://img259.imageshack.us/img259/...valiericu3.jpg
That's the main problem with sources available, they mostly apply to much earlier times.
So, we have little evidence to work on.
1) Panoplies post 600bc could be used with a decent degree of accuracy since they appear as the last timeframe nuragics fielded non guerrilla armies.
This would mean basically copying from what may seem outdated but in reality was still used (with the passage from bronze to iron as the only significant evolution according to Mr. Antonio Zara, who worked for 20 years on the Nora excavations and with Dr. Lilliu).
2) Try to recreate the "sardi pelliti" fighters, which have pretty much no hard archeological evidence for a recreation being tribal sheperds apt in guerrilla rather than pitched battles.
What's left of their description was this: eo quod qui ea induuntur, quasi in ferarum habitum transformentur
3) Use the southern puno-nuragics, which were actively part of the resistance against romans during the invasion of sardinia.
They could be simulated by allowing the recruitment of the punic "civic" units, meaning the militia and the citizen cavalry.
Not very exciting in game variation terms but a safe bet on the historical accuracy side.
The concept of "sardi pelliti" or "latrunculi mastrucati" or "sardi venales" and so on... can have one or more different meanings. I agree with many Sardinian scholars (i.e. Lilliu). It was just one of the numerous ways to discriminate the folks of Sardinia. Ciceronis painted them as barbarians, saying they were "liars like the Phoenicians". But Cicero, who hated the Sards, never went to Sardinia, and he never saw them in those days. There is also the tale of a famous quarrel between Cicero and an aristocrat of Sardinian origin, where you can read about Cicero's racism. Now, we cannot recreate the "sardi pelliti" by considering two lines written by a man (et al.) who hated them. Latin writers give no description about their uniform or weapons. The concept of "sheperds" is wrong too (archaeologically speaking, it is supported by nothing.). This bull perhaps started to circulate thanks to politicians like Lussu and others of the past 1900s, who defended the rights of the sheperds. The Sards of the time were pirates and mercenaries, not sheperds. The only way to recreate the Sardinian armies (not "pelliti") is to consider the bronze statuettes of the time (VII-III) and the numerous weapons still kept inside the local museums. Hope this helps a little.
https://img86.imageshack.us/img86/9950/sardiac7.jpg
Pirates usually had a legit "day job" though, you know. And poor highland shepherds and suchlike were among the most reliable source of mercenaries around anywhere over the millenia...
On the other side, not all sardinian tribes sported the same equipment or way of fighting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mores
Central Sardinia was a ground for hambush or hit and run rather than pitched battles and the interior tribes fought according to that, giving the romans a couple centuries of serious headhaches, while the plains of sulcis-campidano warranted a more standardized type of warfare.
Sardinians were not exactly a single entity at the time, customs varied deeply between interior and the coast.
sheperd= man who tends sheep
We have no source to say that between VII and III they were sheperds.
I have seen hundreds statuettes, mostly warriors. But no sheep.
The island still shows many ruins, over 8.000 fortresses/towers, and we know that no country of the past had such a concentration of stone buildings (in the past they were over 12.000 castles.). Take a look at the picture. It is "one" of the many castles. Its height was about 20 mts. Many Sardinians were located there during the VII-III century.
http://www.circolosardegna.brianzaes...heBarumini.jpg
Hallo at all!
Geoffrey:
I have yet admitted that the theory Sardinian=Shardana, still is not accepted from all. I however still continue to find articles on the connection between Nuragic Civilization and Shardana, tha you see below.
http://www.courses.psu.edu/cams/cams...w/shardana.htm
Moreover I admit that there are differences between the Shardana of the 1500 B.C. and the Sardinians of the 500 A.C.
It must however to consider that such populations, as someone has already said , were a lot conservatory to you in warface.
for example a sword found in Sardinia
https://img212.imageshack.us/my.php?...e336pn0sn8.jpg
and the sword at Medinet Abu
https://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?image=faqq10uq7.jpg
Giovanni Ugas a scholars of the university of Cagliari assert:
"An element a lot important is the round shield: no people in that period (XIV-XI cen.) he used the round shield if they exclude the Shardana. After this period the use of the round shield will be diffused between the people of the Mediterranean. the round shield is a typical armor's elements of the Sardinian warrior"
To Keravnos:
The main Greek colony in Sardinia was perhaps Olbia. The myth says that it came founded from Iolaus (like Pausania said) to head of the Thespis. the Tespis they were sons of Heracles, and Iolaus was its grandson. For this is said that the Sardinians are "Heraclidi", descendants of Heracles;
Some sorces assert that the name of the city of Olbia drifts from Olbio a celtic warrior that colonized the north Sardinia.
Olbia to the maximum constituted a small refueling and commerce outpost. After the naval battle and the "Cadmea victory" (against Ethrurian and Carthage) of Alalia, the Phocean, abandoned the Sardinia that the Corsica and was sheltered to Regio.
according to Diodorus Siculus, at least a part of the Sardinia was under the Punic control, when Carthage fights against Dionysius I of Syracuse. It seems that the Sardinia after the defeats endured from Carthage, supplied soldiers in order to fight Dionysius.
Africa invaded Agathocles (361-289 BC), not the Sardinia. and while it invaded Africa, in order to besiege Carthago, the sardinia resupplied it of food and perhaps soldiers.Therefore even if the relationship between Carthaginians and Sardinians were not never pacific some time they were ally to you.
Diodoro Siculo therefore describes their relationships:
"The Iolei away from the conqueros, shelters to you in mountains and digs underground hiding places to you (...) even if the Carthaginians moved against they great forces, the difficulty of the places and the mazes of the basements defended them from their tyrants, and the Roman same with their Warriors force tried without outcome although often to submit them"
In Sardinia therefore they can be had, Punic troops and Nuragic troops, not the Greek Oplitai ones. In an other forum I have know that the Sardinians came enlist to you in the Carthago Sacred batalion. but since i knew that oh this unit they made single part the Carthaginian citizen, i will have to verify the news with the sources.
New pics:
https://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?image=faqq10uq7.jpg
swordman
https://img132.imageshack.us/my.php?...gacornamn7.jpg
archer (?)
https://img132.imageshack.us/my.php?...atracolxg2.jpg
reconstruction of the staues of the Giants of Mount Prama: a boxer and an archer
https://img132.imageshack.us/my.php?...amaricoxm2.jpg
Abini Style
https://img132.imageshack.us/my.php?...diabinikh2.jpg
Armor ritual
https://img132.imageshack.us/my.php?...einterobm4.jpg
https://img132.imageshack.us/my.php?...onspadaac8.jpg
Ok, Su Nuraxi in Barumini is one of the biggest biggest complexes if not the biggest one, most nuraghes were just conical stone towers.
By sheperds I meant the social class, not exactly what they did.
You can call them in many ways but nothing can detract from the fact that interior sardinia (I'm not talking about the plains in north and south-west sardinia) had a very poor agriculture and tribes over there had to base their economy on something else.
dedalonur9: That's pretty much what I was saying, unfortunately when people talks about sardinian history it's hard to distinguish between legends and historical facts.
I just wish that sardinian independentist parties stopped distorting history...
It is the same if we speak about Rome or any other Mediterranean country of the time. You must consider a sort of hierarchy or military rank. For example, when Servius Tullius ruled in Rome, the militia showed 10 different ways of fighting or specializations. It was the VI century BCE. It was the same in Sardinia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarax
I think the same, they were probably subdivided in tribes. Unfortunately, we still ignore how many tribes. (Athens during the VI century BCE consisted of ten tribes).Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarax
About the different customs, tell me more please.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarax
Thanks for your time.
Not exactly. Today you can find more towers than castles for many different reasons. According to some scholars (i.e. Tozzi, the first researcher of the CNR) in the past a tsunami destroyed many of them (Frau and the Unesco are still studying the complex of Barumini.) Also, Nuraghes were utilized before the Roman wars, during the Roman wars, and even in following wars. Between the 18th and 19th century the law of "chiudende" allowed the islanders to destroy any Nuraghe just to utilize its stones. Nuraghes were destroyed by bombs during WW II, and after the war, in 1950s many islanders dismantled them to rebuild their own homes, pigsties and so on. Before those and other facts, many towers were connected by stone walls and wooden fences and gave origin to true castles. Today it is hard to see most of them as castles. It is difficult to study them because of lack of data and above all building materials (i.e. wood, disintegrated over time). We must consider that these ruins are 4,000-3500 years old circa. :book:Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarax
If we consider Giddens Anthony's writings, it is the same about the Celts lol :beam:Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarax
As I said, I see no reason to link Sardinia to the Shardana as a source from which they originated, at most possibly as a destination where some ended up. And as you rightly point out, even where that the case it implies a cultural and technological stagnation unseen in any culture to assume that the records of Sea People and earlier archeological finds would be suitable as source for the third century BC.Quote:
Originally Posted by dedalonur9
Not exactly what was meant, I think. Extremely little is known about about the martial nature in Sardinia, in techniques or organization. What is known, and is in broad lines comparable to similar regions at the time, that they were a militia which was in the first place occupied with their livelihoods, in the second place (or even further back) with being soldiers, fighting using techniques used in local conflicts or hunting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mores
And even the earlier Roman armies are usually considered to be primarily militia, only becoming somewhat professional after longer, sustained campaigns. Regardless, the level of organization was sufficiently higher to make it somewhat pointless to compare them to Sardinia; more apt comparisons would be mountain people throughout Anatolia and the Caucasus, or even closer to home in the Alps, central Italia or Iberia.
The closest comparisons would be to balearics or iberians imho.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoffrey S
About Sardinia, there are tons of books on that topic but they are in Italian, not English language. If you had read the old books written by Pais, Taramelli, Carta Raspi, Cossu... or recent ones by Dr. Sergio Frau (that's supported by Unesco); by professor Giovanni Ugas (who was Giovanni Lilliu's best pupil); Pisu and by others, probably we would not debate about it. :beam:
PS - about the Shardana and their birthplace, if you want to know more, on recent archaeological discoveries, it is a must to purchase "L'Alba dei nuraghi" (2006-7) by G.Ugas, Fabula Editor, 279 pages. It is the first book of the trilogy.
:book:
PS - lol, forget about balearics and iberians.
Don't forget goats. Those two animals have had this funny tendency to form the basis of economy in mountainous regions, since they can derive sustenance from ground the most inspired human effort isn't going to turn into a field worth the trouble.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mores
Gee, wonder why. Might it have something to do with the issue the makers of the statues had little interest in depicting such humdrum topics ? Sheep and goats are definitely around the least impressive grazers mankind has turned into production animals, that's for sure. Armed warriors make for a considerably more exctiting and inspiring pieces of art, all the more so if the men represented are from the upper ranks of local society (ie. well-equipped, meaning wealthy and/or the followers of a local bigwig). Ditto if the society in question is warlike (and highland ones in particular have generally tended to be; likewise ones whose members commonly make some extra income through piracy), since such tend to hold warriors in high regard.Quote:
We have no source to say that between VII and III they were sheperds.
I have seen hundreds statuettes, mostly warriors. But no sheep.
Put this way: if they didn't herd sheep and goats up in those mountains, like everyone else in the region did, what exactly were they going to live on ? Nuts and berries ?
Cheers, I'll keep an eye out. As I said, I don't know much on the subject, but I didn't find the links posted convincing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mores
Goats? Do you mean the moufflon? It is wild. A statuette shows one of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
http://www.fiarc.it/Regolamenti/Bers...lone-Corso.jpg
Also, among statuettes you can find the the deer, the boar, the crocodile, the bull, the monkey etc... They probably hunted those animals, didn't breed them. We can suppose the breeding of oxen/bulls, but there is no proof.Read above, please. You can find statuettes on many different topics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
The Sardinians knew agriculture, piracy, they hunted animals, they worked as mercenaries, they traded bronze, ceramics and other products, they invaded and colonised lands (i.e. Etruria: Vetulonia, Populonia... the Etruscans were dominated by Sardinians, read Herodot and see the archaeological discoveries in Latium, Tuscany, Corse..) and so on. Hope it helps a little.Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
https://img86.imageshack.us/img86/88...slingerua0.jpg
I'm not 100% sure about using Frau as reliable source.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mores
He's seen by the rest of the Archaeological community as an historical fiction writer rather than a serious historian, to the point that when unesco started supporting his atlantis theory (not that I wouldn't like my island to be recognized belonging to such a wonderful legend in addition to the already rich history) they started a petition citing all the mistakes he made in his book.
There are copies of the petition around the internet and many important sardinian archeologists are in the list.
Again (btw, goats and mufflons are two different animals), finding really reliable sources that are not contaminated with some hype is quite hard, to the point that the museum of Cagliari still classified a bronze reproduction of a clearly middle age castle still as nuragic.
And finally, most books you can find published are about nuragic Sardinia which is not the same as punic Sardinia (the latter unfortunately got much more scant information, most available stuff is on the religious integration side), which is seen by the public as less interesting and not worth of attention and as such relegated to museum storages or unpublished material.
If you want an example compare the level of care that some nuragical site gets against punic remains like Nora or Tharros (to name the big ones).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoffrey S
To ascettain if there were or less a connection is important. If the identity were assessed or at least the inheritance left from the Shardana to the Sardinians it wuold help to reconstruct their war tradition, to the ends of their reconstruction in E.B.
It does not seem to me is a speech off-topic. I believe as an example that the swords and the skirt of the Shardana can be used in order to design to the skirt and the sword of the Sardinians becasue: the sword has been finds to you in the common tomb of Iroxi that I have posted in the precedent post. and the shardana skirt is represented in the Nuragic bronze statues, than son still successful i not to post
The petition is old and was organized by "some" Sardinian archaeologists (many of the people who protested were Sardinian students). It was against Frau because Frau is not an archaeologist. He is a Roman journalist. So they rejected his theories. But Frau's theories are still supported by scholars such as Tozzi, first researcher of the CNA of Rome, prof. Ribichini, prof. Louis Godart, prof. Braccesi, prof. Donadoni and many other geologists, egyptologists and archaeologists that teach in European Universities and are members of the United Nations Educational Scientific and Cultural Organization. About the "mistakes", do another search and read Dr. Frau's answers, please. He replied them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarax
PS - some of those archaeologists who attacked him had legal problems too.
In the mountains of Sardinia you can find many mufflons (the "ovis musimon" is related to the sheep, but it is a wild animal) and as I said there is even a bronze showing it. I have no idea of goats, I have not seen ancient statuettes or pics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarax
welcome to the world of Archaeology lol :beam:Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarax
Yes, I know that miniature. Have you seen it? You are speaking of a small-scale reproduction of Barumini (see pic. #1). In fact the nuraghe was a sort of medieval castle, but built during the bronze age. Incredible, neh? Take a look at the picture below, where you can see more examples, three different nuraghes (from a book written by more scholars: prof. Lilliu, dr. Mori, dr. Almagia, prof. Alziator, prof. Cori, prof. Loddo, prof. Montaldo, prof. Canepa, prof. Vardabasso, prof. Terrosu and others)Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarax
https://img161.imageshack.us/img161/3926/barumnn9.jpghttps://img147.imageshack.us/img147/7481/lilliuzr9.jpg
I was speaking of the natives. But there are tons of news and books exclusively on "punic Sardinia". You can read the lines of authors such as prof. Amadasi Guzzi of the University of Rome, prof. Corinne Bonnet of the University Notre Dame de la Paix of Belgium, prof. Cecchini of the University of Bologna, prof. Xella of the University of Tubingen and many others. :book:Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarax
Among the names there are people who aren't exactly just random names but part of Dr. Lilliu team and one of them is the guy who discovered Nora.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mores
None of those are nuragic specialists, not that I'm downplaying who they are but we're talking about a pretty specific field here.Quote:
But Frau's theories are still supported by scholars such as Tozzi, first researcher of the CNA of Rome, prof. Ribichini, prof. Louis Godart, prof. Braccesi, prof. Donadoni and many other geologists, egyptologists and archaeologists that teach in European Universities and are members of the United Nations Educational Scientific and Cultural Organization.
Having grown up not far from supramonte I think I'm familiar with sardinian fauna, enough for sure to know the difference between capra (goat) and muflone.Quote:
In the mountains of Sardinia you can find many mufflons (the "ovis musimon" is related to the sheep, but it is a wild animal) and as I said there is even a bronze showing it. I have no idea of goats, I have not seen ancient statuettes or pics.
That's not the one I'm talking about.Quote:
Yes, I know that miniature. Have you seen it? You are speaking of a small-scale reproduction of Barumini (see pic. #1). In fact the nuraghe was a sort of medieval castle, but built during the bronze age. Incredible, neh? Take a look at the picture below, where you can see more examples, three different nuraghes (from a book written by more scholars: prof. Lilliu, dr. Mori, dr. Almagia, prof. Alziator, prof. Cori, prof. Loddo, prof. Montaldo, prof. Canepa, prof. Vardabasso, prof. Terrosu and others)
https://img161.imageshack.us/img161/3926/barumnn9.jpghttps://img147.imageshack.us/img147/7481/lilliuzr9.jpg
BTW, I would like that you tone down your condescending tone, it's not exactly the most constructive.
I'm not saying there is no published material about public sardinia, I just said that the one about the military of that era is mostly outside of public.Quote:
I was speaking of the natives. But there are tons of news and books exclusively on "punic Sardinia" too. You can read the lines of authors such as prof. Amadasi Guzzi of the University of Rome, prof. Corinne Bonnet of the University Notre Dame de la Paix of Belgium, prof. Cecchini of the University of Bologna, prof. Xella of the University of Tubingen and many others. :book:
Some promoters of the protest "were" Lilliu's pupils. But prof. Ugas (Lilliu's best pupil) and prof. Lilliu's opinions were really different. Lilliu disagreed with them. And they are nuragic specialists. The best specialists. In addition we are talking about a book supported by Unesco's researchers, and they have the best Universities of Europe about archaeology, geology, anthropology...Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarax
About the guy who "discovered" Nora. His name was Johannes Franciscus Fara and he died some centuries ago (16th century).
https://img180.imageshack.us/img180/6479/noraxc3.jpg
In that case, can you show me a picture of the nuraghe in question?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarax
I am showing pictures, photos, names, data. I am replying questions... what's wrong?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarax
https://img113.imageshack.us/img113/2328/shipgl2.jpg
There are many different places where you can find info on that topic: libraries, universities, museums, archaeological sites... When I want to know something about a certain topic I go there. If you know professors specialized in that topic, you can contact them too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarax
https://img127.imageshack.us/img127/...arthag1vh3.gifhttps://img261.imageshack.us/img261/6109/bowmanlc9.jpg
I know what a goat is, thankyouverymuch. It's very much not wild (although the line's a wobbly one - like pigs, the things tend to do quite well when they go feral), and has been a very popular domestic animal for a very long time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mores
Which would sort of be the key difference. Animals you raise for meat are a lot less "sexy" artistic topic than ones you hunt for meat, especially if they're not otherwise big and impressive.Quote:
Also, among statuettes you can find the the deer, the boar, the crocodile, the bull, the monkey etc... They probably hunted those animals, didn't breed them.
Plus the actual herdsmen themselves tended to be kinda low on the social ladder. Aristocrats (usually the chief patrons of artists) hunted for fun and profit often enough, but the most contact they tended to have with the domestic beasts (aside from horses natch) was culinary...
...and if they didn't also herd sheep and goats in the more rugged parts, they were for some incomprehensible reason missing one of the most characteristic and succesful facets of mounatin ecology. Raising those animals allowed income and subsistence, even some wealth, to be extracted from ground otherwise practically useless.Quote:
The Sardinians knew agriculture, piracy, they hunted animals, they worked as mercenaries, they traded bronze, ceramics and other products, they invaded and colonised lands (i.e. Etruria: Vetulonia, Populonia... the Etruscans were dominated by Sardinians, read Herodot and see the archaeological discoveries in Latium, Tuscany, Corse..) and so on.
Plus the animals were, and still are, herded in all of the surrounding parts of the Mediterranean.
Frankly, I find your aversion to shepherds downright bizarre.
This conversation has been great to follow. As noted before, I am no scholar on the subject. The only observation I wanted to add - at this point -was that there doesn't seem to be much armor on those statues posted oh so many posts ago - if we are going to have the statues influence our unit type decision. Point being that in game terms, I think we are looking at lightly armored troops.
(is that greaves or knees on that first (horned helmeted) warrior statue?)
I for one am enjoying the exchange of ideas between you all. But if I may make a point, let us always remember to be civil - or as my gramma use to say, "If you can't be civil, then be nice." Which always left us 10 yr olds scratching our heads - but it worked.
Lastly, remember that although English is the common language of the forum, it is not everyone's first language. And since I have yet to meet/read an EB forum member that communicates worse in English then the "Leader of the Free World", I think we should revert to civility when in doubt on someone's tone.
May you please quote where you read Lilliu's opinion?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mores
AFAIK he was just disgusted by the whole discussion and never took part of it.
My mistake, I mean the mt. Sirai complex (not very far from there).Quote:
About the guy who "discovered" Nora. His name was Johannes Franciscus Fara and he died some centuries ago (16th century).
https://img180.imageshack.us/img180/6479/noraxc3.jpg
There is nothing wrong in posting material but it's not very civil to use a tone that assumes who's reading knows nothing about the subject.Quote:
I am showing pictures, photos, names, data. I am replying questions... what's wrong?
Other than that, let's please keep the discussion on the subject, which is the sardinian military organization during the 3rd-1st century BC.
A more generalized discussion on Nuragic Sardinia could be posted in another topic easily but here it only kills the productive part of the topic.
These considerations even though partially founded, can induce in error.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarax
It is a point that goes in the light of considered the Sardinian revolts against the Roman, as it made scholars, Manno Giuseppe (history of Sardinia).
Diodorus Siculus (IV, 30): "Before the Cataginian and then the Roman fought them often, but they failed their objective"
Pausania (X, 17 ,5) "The Cartagininian in the period in which they were powerful for their fleet, submitted all those who were found in Sardinia, to exception of the Iliensi"
The Greek Historian therefore i refer to the Iliensi (Ilienses) that they lived in the Limbara mount, Goceano, Mounts of Alà (east north Sardinia), and that they made to effort greater in order to fight the Roman, but also Baleari, tht they inhabited puts into effect in them Barbagia (central Sardinia)
however all historical sources not us never that is was be a mater of hambushes or guerrilla.
Of the Latin sources we have a little detailed report of Livio, in how much we have lost its decades, therefore as it has lost a plate depositated in a Temple, that described such revolt.
But we can understand that the Sardinians did not practice only guerrilla against the Roman, but true and own wars, examinee the militaty forces who the Senate sent in Sardinia, and form the figures on the Sardinian dead men.
Holding present that propagandistiche reasons, the Roman diminished the number of thei troops and increased, the number of the enemy troops, is better to remenber the greater revolt at least, otherwise will have a distorted idea of the Sardinians:
the first revolt is had in the 259 A.C, Consul Lucio Cornelio Scipione, after is gotten Olbia, had to withdraw itself some
239 A.C. the Roman occupy the Island
In the 235 the Sardinians rebelled and came defeats in the blood from Manlio Torquato, that he would have celebrated the triumph.
It is from noticing that in order to celebrate a triumph it had to kill minimum 5000 enemies
In the 233 other revolts bloody they were repressed from the Maximum Carvilio Consul (with Triumph)
In the 232 she was consul Manio Pomponio to defeat the sardinians and to receive the honors of the triumph
in the 227 the island obtained the legal shape and the rank of Province
but, in the 225 Caio Attilio Regolo (the famous general) was sended a Pretor in order to govern it. Was sended with 2 Legions
In the 215 year, turned Ampsicora, in order to tame to this revolt to, Manlio Torquato the Senate he gave 4 Legions and a total of 23.000 men. 22.000 between Sardinia and Cartaginian died in the battle, and 3700 was made captive.
In the 177/176 the Senate sended Consul, Tiberio Sempronio Gracco, fortified of two legions of 5.200 soldiers more 300 knights, 10 quinqueremi, which others were associated 12.000 make you and 600 knights ally toyou and Latin for a total of beyond 23.000 men
it was the revolt of the Balari and Iliensi, and came be ssuffocated in the blood. they came killed seems 27.000 Sardinians,on one composed population to the maximus of 300.000 sardinians on all the island. Gracco obtained the triumph.
One tells that after the Sempronio battles it burnt great amounts of crews in honor of the God Vulcano. this particular one demonstrates that the Sardinian, when they faced the Roman army where still sufficiently armed
To the revolts some time participated also inhabitants of the coasts and plains (revolts of the 126 and 127 )
Of other rebellions we do not have new because have been lost the book fo Tito Livio.
In the 6 d.c Sardinians they were rebelled, not only inside but also in plains and manifested their dissatisfaction joining to the pirats one of the Tyrrenian
In generalized manner it can be said that the Roman same did not consider the revolts of the mere Sardinians mere ambushes or guerrilla. they had to face in true and own battles.
that make to think that in spite of the division for tribe, the Sardinians were ally to you, and could think to face the Roman in opened field, as however they to make Carthago.
For this reason we must second think next to armored troops and enough organized their ancient warrior tradition
the war between Sardinians and Roman lasted a century and means, and only how much ended when all the Sardinian males and adults came exterminate to you.
According the scholar Manno Giuseppe one upset resistance therefore, and until to the last man, it goes explained with religious reasons.
guerrilla and ambushes were therefore the only way with wigh the Sardinians they fought after the great rebellions of the first and second century B.C.
:smash:
Come on, that's not true. Before publishing his book Frau contacted Lilliu (and other scholars) many times. You had to watch "videolina" TV and read "Il Sardegna" newspaper of those days. About his theories, Lilliu said: "Di fronte a dati nuovi e' un obbligo rivedere le proprie convinzioni". Archaeologically speaking, Lilliu agreed with Frau about the Pillars of Hercules localization.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarax
http://www.cagliariairport.it/news/news/it/7996.html
Scholars knew that Phoenician site, and worked there ever since the 19th century. You can read Taramelli, Moscati...Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarax
IMHO it is not very civil to post useless sentences:Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarax
"Frankly, I find your aversion to shepherds downright bizarre." (Watchman)
I don't like to polemize, but the topic is "Sardinian and Corsican units".Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarax
Disciple of Tacitus, thank you :yes:
"I think we should revert to civility when in doubt on someone's tone."
https://img139.imageshack.us/img139/3128/siraivb6.jpg
When I have spoken myths I have made it in order to clear which were the relationships between Greece and Sardinia and to refute the theories of those who the Hoplitay in Sardinia thinks to have,as it happenes in the game. This is indeed grade an historical error that the E.B. team would have to correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarax
I think that you refer to the theory of ShardanaQuote:
Originally Posted by Zarax
Iwould to turn upside down your affirmation. he seems more than other that cannot be spoken serenely about the Shardana hypothesis for fear of the Sardinian movement of indipendence.
I personally enough am convinced that the Shardana was the Nuragic.
But i have introduced it argument on the Shardana for better being able to understand the military truth of the Sardinian, and not to have us to only, the bronze statues.
On this point it is better to put it leave politics and to make to speak scholars specialist in Nuragic civilizations.
Ugas is currently the greater scholar of such civilization, if the Lilliu is excluded. It asserts not to have doubts on the identity between Sardinian and Shardana in the following interview
http://www.sardiniapoint.it/5085.html
In order to help those who they do not know the italian, he assert that, i order to try the connection between Sardinians and Shardana it must analyze four point at least:
1) "first it must understand if the two people (shardana and Nuragic people, ndr) have operated at the same time. and my answer is: yes.
2) "second: it must confront the description that the Egyptians gave to Shardana with the descriptions that we have of the Nuragic Sardinian. The Egyptian say that the Shardana uses various crews, shows to possess technical being left over the war and are accostomed to the battle. and the equipment of the warrior Shardana is much particular and characterizing: they use long swords, nozzles, daggers and above the round shield. they used a skirt short( I have seen one skirt of all the identical one to that one of the shardana in some bronze statues, ndr), one supplied armor and a horned helmet.
From a figurative and even somatich point of view the paintings Egyptian recall the Nuragic Sardinians. An element a lot important is the round shield: no people in that period (XIV-XI cen.) he used the round shield if they exclude the shardana."
3) "Third parthy: we must be asked from where they came this Shardana. For the Egyptians they are one of the people of the sea, but more just they are the people of the islands that are in means to the "great green". I emphasize the people of the islands that are in means.
He is reasonable to think that for the Egyptians the islands that are in means to the great green were not the islands og the Aegean much nearer Egypt of the sardinia, and with wich had frequent exchanges and documents to you . he is reasonable to think that "the great green was for the Egyptians the western Mediterranean."
4 "quarter: which were the two distintive characteristics of the Shardana for the Egyptians. Well to their eyes they are skilful navigators and frightening warrior. this is deduced also from the fact that Ramses III (XIII cent.) is boasted of to have the first one to have stopped the fleet of the Shardana . Moreover the Shardana comes used from the Egyptians like personal guard of the Pharaoh. (...) The numerous votive small boat, bronze statues and the found crews exactly give back the Sardinians the image to us of people of navigators and warrior. drawing them row, the shardana "
Ugas concludes, "to my opinion being to the scientific data up to now in our possession, not is doubts: the Shardana was the nuragian sardinians"
According to me it would be opportune to continue to only speak about the hypotheses of the Shardana rifaring us to the scholar, and therefore to put to comparison their opinions not ours
to the rest we concetrate ourselves on the ricostruction of the sardinian warrior
...he says, and entirely avoids the entire rest of the post and the points it raises. :inquisitive:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mores
dedalonur9: IMO those accounts of the Sardinians and the trouble they gave (mostly the Romans) sound to all the world like a textbook case of intractable mountain tribesmen who fought campaigns of ambush, skirmish and harassement in rugged terrain they were familiar with, and were thus able to tie down very large forces for long times and inflict heavy casualties before being subjugated (for a while).
Much like, say, the Iberians. Another bunch whose military techniques were to a large part dictated by their environment and rugged terrain, and who gave the Romans no end of royal pain.
And the Romans were specialists in pitched battles. You beat them in one, they just sent in another army and repeated the process until you cracked - and there's just no way a rugged island like Sardinia was going to rival them in fighting manpower. Heck, I'd be quite surprised were I to be proven they could muster the necessary kinds and numbers of forces to beat the Romans in even one straight set-piece battle...
But rendering the rugged interior a virtual no-go zone for Romans does rather smack of considerable competence in light-troop hit-and-run techniques.
I did not want to deny the ability of the Sardinian guerrillas. but i wanted to avoid 3 wrong:Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
the guerrillas techniques and the high frequency of rebellions might suggest that the sardinians not fought hardest Roman, which could flee and avoid big losses
it is true. the environment helped the Sardinians. but you have to consider that there are Sardinia plains. thisis a second mistake. the Romans were fought in some moments from coastal populations, which certainly could not make ambushes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
moreover, as elsewhere recalled, a Sardinian army defeated several times a Carthaginian army of 80.000 men.
the decisive battle took place at Mount Sirai, where the Carthaginians had a fortress. The name (mount sirai) must not leads into error. Is actually, and it was in the past, a small hill, surronded by flat, it was short, a great battle field. for proportions was not much smaller than the underlyng Canne, where Annibal with 50.000 soldiers defeated 90.000 Romans.
Do not know the amount of soldiers who formed the Sardinian army.
in the next picture you can see where the battle took palce in mount Sirai
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immagine:Monte_Sirai.jpg
Sure. but i have strong doubts yhat the Sardinian consist of Light troops only.Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
I must be able to have pics of some bronze statues. but among them, in addition to heavy infantry, we also have heavy archers, with armoured.
light more troops that are depicted in statues, are armed with a weapon similar to the african QRU. in addition tothe QRU they had a circular shield and the horned helmet
:juggle2:
Dear Watchman.Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
your post doesn't help. In fact you do not show any proof. You do not demonstrate that in Sardinia the warriors were sheperds (and we were talking about that). Can you show the bronze statuette of a Sardinian sheperd, or the fresco of a Sardinian warrior breeding sheep (or goats) in the mountains, or sheep's bones of the VII-III BCE, or a stone statuette of sheperd of the time, and so on, can you? If you cannot, you must accept the truth: They were not sheperds. They were hunters since the Neolithics. So I am obliged to repeat my lines because you didn't read them.
"We have no source to say that between VII and III they were sheperds."
"I have seen hundreds statuettes, mostly warriors. But no sheep."
"In the mountains of Sardinia you can find many mufflons (the "ovis musimon" is related to the sheep, but it is a wild animal) and as I said there is even a bronze showing it. I have no idea of goats, I have not seen ancient statuettes or pics."
About your post, opinions are not facts.
"know what a goat is, thankyouverymuch. It's very much not wild (although the line's a wobbly one - like pigs, the things tend to do quite well when they go feral), and has been a very popular domestic animal for a very long time."
....................................................................................................
"Which would sort of be the key difference. Animals you raise for meat are a lot less "sexy" artistic topic than ones you hunt for meat, especially if they're not otherwise big and impressive.
Plus the actual herdsmen themselves tended to be kinda low on the social ladder. Aristocrats (usually the chief patrons of artists) hunted for fun and profit often enough, but the most contact they tended to have with the domestic beasts (aside from horses natch) was culinary..."
.................................................................................................... ...
"...and if they didn't also herd sheep and goats in the more rugged parts, they were for some incomprehensible reason missing one of the most characteristic and succesful facets of mounatin ecology. Raising those animals allowed income and subsistence, even some wealth, to be extracted from ground otherwise practically useless. Plus the animals were, and still are, herded in all of the surrounding parts of the Mediterranean."
"Frankly, I find your aversion to shepherds downright bizarre."
There is no "aversion". You ignored my previous message. In fact I wrote: "We can suppose the breeding of oxen/bulls, but there is no proof."
Well, of course. People develop their fighting methods according to the local conditions after all.Quote:
Originally Posted by dedalonur9
But it was the coastal parts which were subdued relatively easily by the foreign empires, and the rugged interior which they rather left alone right ?
Nobles and their immediate retainers, I'd guess. Those guys usually formed the heaviest troops in most contexts - after all, they could afford that kind of gear, and the most time to actually specifically practice fighting skills.Quote:
Sure. but i have strong doubts yhat the Sardinian consist of Light troops only.
I must be able to have pics of some bronze statues. but among them, in addition to heavy infantry, we also have heavy archers, with armoured.
QRU ?Quote:
light more troops that are depicted in statues, are armed with a weapon similar to the african QRU. in addition tothe QRU they had a circular shield and the horned helmet
Mores: right, thanks for completely missing the point.
Fine.
Let me put it this way. The Iberians most definitely did herd sheep. Now, do those animals happen to feature particularly prominently in their art ? Do poultry appear in about anyone's art, nevermind in warrior topics, despite being pretty widely cultivated ?
To be quite honest I've this nagging suspicion you for some reason view shepherding as a somehow "unworthy" mode of subsistence, and thus incompatible with whatever it now is you think the ancient Sardinians were. (I'm suspecting something romaticised, based on some earlier comments.)
Absence of evidence of something is not evidence of the negation of that something.
Mores, let me put it this way: If the Sardinians did not herd sheep, then what else did they do to survive?
Keep in mind that there must be enough of this something to sustain the Sardinians, plus there must be bronze statuettes of this.
History and Archaeology are supported by proofs. You cannot say "The Iberians most definitely did herd sheep" if there is no way to demonstrate that. Is that your opinion? Did you read that n some books? Can you prove that? We can generalize above any topic, but it is wrong. In the Greek culture (i.e. Magna Graecia) and in the Roman art you can find them. So you can claim: yes, they had them, they worked as sheperds. I hope it is clear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
https://img266.imageshack.us/img266/6442/ovispv6.jpg
I've this nagging suspicion you for some reason never studied history...Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
General Appo, about your question, read my previous posts please.Quote:
Originally Posted by General Appo
Yeah. That must obviously be it. :dizzy2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mores
The first line shows how little you actually know about history. If we stuck strictly to proof there would be no point in any further analysis beyond the obvious. The trick is using what little facts we have and stretching them as far as possible. In the case of Iberians herding sheep, no, there may not be direct evidence in a text stating that they did so - but using even a little reason shows that it is extremely likely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mores
It's extremely easy to dismiss interpretations out of hand with a summary accusation of there being no exact evidence, but that's missing the point entirely. Seen quite a few people on various subjects doing just that, accepting only clear-cut evidence and the most basic interpretation thereof.
lol :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoffrey S
Geoffrey, as I already wrote, about Sardinia and its archaeology/history there are tons of books. We can base our search on evidence and we do not need to stretch any fact. I mean, we do not need to generalize and invent a "new history" by using personal opinions or conjectures. About the Sardinian units of the punic era there are evidences of every kind: weapons, skulls, soldier's tombs, fortresses, names, diplomas... So, I do not understand the problem. If I can help with sources and pictures, I do. If you appreciate that, let me know. Best regardsQuote:
Originally Posted by Geoffrey S
ps - Currently I know little or nothing about videogames...
https://img86.imageshack.us/img86/9950/sardiac7.jpg
Anyone that has a minimum of knowledge of Sardinian archaelogy and read the rest of the thread will find this extremely ironic...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mores
For the rest of the audience:
Mores said that after for dozens of posts he kept posting the theories of Sergio Frau, who rose to media attention after writing a book about how Sardinia could be Atlantis, basically stretching a number of historical facts and making a huge assumption to base the book itself on.
http://johnmckay.blogspot.com/2006/1...-favorite.html
Nothing more to say.
Sure the populations of plain could defend less. they were more easyQuote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
object than reprisal. I wanted to only say that the Sardinian tradition in the war went from the guerrilla and the field battle; me it seemed that same insinuating the idea to me, that, the Sardinians made alone guerrilla.
All the revolts, also those against the Roman, had like scope to defeat the Roman, and in order to succeed to us, to the Sardinians it seemed necessary to face the Roman in open field.
Without doubt the Noble ones. But also the troops that were not immediately to their order. all the statues of Sardinian warrior always represent them with shield, armor;Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
In the statues two exceptions are present: the "archers from fortress" and like yet said, the warrior armed with Qru.
the presence or less than armors was not tied to the wealth of the individuals, but to the unit of belongings
this is one of the points that could be cleared, if the sources could themselves be used Egyptians on the Shardana in this forum. the Egyptians in fac assert that the Shardana was ageneralized manner supplies of armors.
Sardinia was not founded on the private property, from that it turns us. Without doubt the Ilienses and the Balari. all that of which the individuals had need came created in the village. they did not buy their crews, constructed to them. therefore in danger case, also to the poor ones the crews came dates.Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
It is a hypothesis that i have found in an other forum; draft on arm in part similar to be boomerang (but it nor returned behind), as you can see in the following pics. It seems to appear in some bronze statues that i will make in way to show to you. in Africa it is used like arm from launch that like mace.Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchman
https://img88.imageshack.us/my.php?image=qruqu9za5.jpg
In Egypt it has been found again between the crews of mercenary, in the tomb of fra le armi dei mercenari nella tomb di Tothankamon (the Shardana was the body guard mercenary of the Pharaoh)
While sheep and goats do not feature prominently in Iberia art, there are bone caches near settlements that have in fact allowed us to reconstruct with a very large degree of certainty, just in what proportions were animals consumed in said cultures. In order of importance was the pig, the goat, in addition to sheep and cows who were kept around more for their milk and coat than for their meat exactly (though one could be butchered on a special day).Quote:
Originally Posted by Mores
Is there nothing of the sort there?
Unlike what Mores said, it's been part of Sardinian tradition and lifestyle since pretty much forever.
Unfortunately there are some people (mostly tied to independentist parties) that denies many things to paint nuragic civilization as superior to the others.
Fraus' book gives them a perfect excuse, which is one of the things that pisses me off to no end.
Gah. Gah, I say!
I can add something. That is the blogger's opinion and he says nothing new. There are lots of pages and articles against Frau. :beam:Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarax
Before being localized on Hissarlik, Troy was a "wonderful legend" too.
About stretching a fact. Frau was supported by specialists and reported studies written by other scholars. In fact he is a journalist. Then he published the data. You can believe him (or his sources, i.e. Tozzi, first researcher of the CNR) or not.
In addition, as I wrote, Professor Giovanni Lilliu accademico dei Lincei, like the Unesco's scholars, agreed with Frau about the localization of the Pillars of Hercules. Again, that thesis is not very different from the thesis of independent scholars such as Prof. Rosario Vieni (who preceded him) or even Robert Ishoy. Take a look.
http://www.atlantisdiscovered.org/
Other than the journalist Frau -that I mentioned because he wrote recent articles about Sardinians and Shardana (in fact I and Geoffrey were talking about this topic, before you mentioned Atlantis)- I mentioned scholars such as Pais, Taramelli, Carta Raspi, Cossu, Pisu, Ugas, Tozzi, Ribichini, Godart, Braccasi, Donadoni, Lilliu, Mori, Almagià, Alziator, Cori, Loddo, Montaldo, Canepa, Vardabasso, Terrosu, Guzzi, Bonnet, Cecchini, Xella.
I mean, I mentioned a lot of authors. So, you can consider them or not.
Now I have some old questions for you.
1)
About the different customs, tell me more please.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarax
2)I replied “About the guy who "discovered" Nora. His name was Johannes Franciscus Fara and he died some centuries ago (16th century)."Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarax
Then you wrote:
and I answered: “Scholars knew that Phoenician site, and worked there ever since the 19th century. You can read Taramelli, Moscati...”Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarax
Now, just for curiosity, what are you talking about?
3) you write:
I answered: Yes, I know that miniature. Have you seen it? You are speaking of a small-scale reproduction of Barumini"Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarax
Well, what is the bronze model of nuraghe you are talking about?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarax
4)
you write:
May you please quote where you read Lilliu's disgust?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarax
Thanks. :beam:
The argument does not seem more much constructive one to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarax
It could also are given that book of Frau are instrumentalize to you from indipendentist. however is cannot be demied that they have had the important consent exponents of the academic world.
therefore who wants to refute the theses of Frau, than moreover they are OFF-TOPIC, it would better make to cite other Scholar, and not ignore them with the pretest who are used from the indipendentist parties.
She does not have sense also the Nazis used Darwin and Nietzsche, for example.I do not want sure to consider you leave indipendentist parties like of the Nazis
as i have said on purpose of the Shardana, it is better to confront to us, through the thesis of Scholar. And after to have cited these to even add ours;
it does not seem to met is making!
Unfortunately I have found nothing about that topic. The bones comes from the deer, the boar, and other animals. I saw them in different museums (see pic). We know that they had the mouflon, dogs, oxen/bulls... they are represented on many statuettes too. Honestly, I never read about goats or sheep.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcasm
https://img339.imageshack.us/img339/7590/ossajb2.jpg
Zarax, I didn't deny the sheep-breeding in ancient times. I am saying that I have found nothing about it, considering the period between the VII and III century BCE. If you have sources or pictures about that topic and you can post them, thank you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarax
isnt the mouflon a type of sheep? An endangered species today in Corsica. Do we need a statue of a guy stuffing himself with a shishkebob as proof. Excuse me for that last sentence. I'm hungry right now. :laugh4:
Decimus... :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by Decimus Attius Arbiter
Yes, I wrote that. The Sardinian mountains are still populated by them. It is a wild animal.
np. My bad. :beam:
Don't you prefer a Roman recipe, a placenta with garum?
(a sort of salted pizza) Yummm... :yes:
We have ended to discuss about sardinia units?
or the E.B. team has decided as they mustare reconstructed?
Surely there should be no region that does not provide units for any faction. At the very least there should be an ability to levy peasants to form units of skirmishers or archers/slingers. In Corsica and Sardinia the Carthaginians should be able to raise these types of units as well as some Poeni citizen militia.
G. O'C