Our President

Recently, all I hear is people bashing our president. The news, congress, and the presidential canidates constantly take shots at him.
I think it has become fashionable to bash Bush. Where has the respect gone? People may not agree with his policies, but he still is our president. He holds the most powerful office in the world and the general public thinks he is a bumbling idiot.

I bring this up because recently I heard that there is going to be a new documentary about his life. I don't remember who the director is, but i know it is in the works.

I bring this up because the director said that he was going to be as neutral as possible when it came to his life, and not be biased, and or take shots at him. This director siad Bush's life was quite interesting. he went from a middle aged alcoholic to the most powerful man in the world in a relativly short amount of time. Which got me to thinking.

Bush's life and tenure as president are quite interesting. He started out with the greatest intentions, but his results have been quite the opposite. Nothing has gone right for this man, first the disputed election, 9/11, the botched Iraq war, and finally a democratic congress that has all but made him a lame duck.

His life seems much like that of a main character in a classic greek tragedy. He really was a underdog who won it all only to see everything he invisioned going wrong.

I really disagree with many of his policies that are taking place now, but I have the upmost respect for the man in the oval office. God knows I could never deal with the pressures of that office.

So who else out there hasn't given up on our president, and or thinks that maybe he doesn't deserve all of the blame for what has happened for the last 7 years?

I do not consider him a complete idiot, but that is about as flattering as I can get towards George W. Bush.

Well, I'm not one of them.

I felt that invading Afghanistan, although counter to what I would have wished, was at least somewhat justifiable and the US did not mess it up THAT bad there. Iraq, however, was just another story. The WMD story is just BS

Tristrem, I think it's important to have respect for the office of President, if not for a particular occupant. And certainly as President qua President, George W. Bush deserves respect.

But that's as far as I'm willing to go. His policies are generally the polar opposite of what I consider to be wise and prudent.

I'm glad to see someone respects the man in office. It's hard to do sometimes, because you think he is crazy and do not understand his decisions, but when push comes to shove, he is our leader, and deserves our respect. (I mean come on we voted him in twice?)

I think it's like the Obama support.

It's 'cool' to dislike Bush because everyone dislikes him, not because you can name his policies. Sure, you can say 'Iraq War' or 'deficit', but that's like supporting Obama because he likes 'universal healthcare' or 'new hope' message. Just saying those as reasons doesn't mean you understand the reasons. Now, while I'm not insulting anyone here on the forum, no sir, it's just that an average American dislikes Bush because everyone else does. Not because they know why, but because everyone else is doing it.

My humble opinion.

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Originally Posted by Marshal Murat

Sure, you can say 'Iraq War' or 'deficit' ...

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And those are small issues? Those are throwaways? As Jar-Jar Binks would say, exqwueeeze me?

It's a no-win situation, and Bush gets blamed for it. While I'm not absolving him of his guilt, I'm saying that Bush can either stay in and be punished, or withdraw and maybe get punished for allowing a 'civil war'. It's the better of two options, for Bush at least, and maybe for the world at large.

The deficit, well, I misspoke. I meant to say recession, deficit slipped in, and I got depressed. I meant to have everyone complain about Bush failing to handle the economy and the recession. I'll agree that the deficit is Bush's fault, but the economy is an entirely separate matter.

My base argument, however, is that anyone who hates Bush can throw around 'Iraq War' and get away with it, rather than having to explain what aspects were particularly unsavory, and what the best course of action should be, were you President.

And I would counter that people almost always speak in shorthand of some sort. If you want to see how ugly it gets when everybody has to define their terms in detail, go to a philosopher's convention. It gets ugly.

I dunno, your argument seems to be that the main reason Bush is unpopular is that Bush is unpopular. You see the tautology there? You seem to be saying there is no cause for the effect.

He is the veritable Nero - He fiddles while his country burns.

I'll take your word on the philosophers convention.

WSJ Editorial

I hope this clarifies my position.

Well, certainly I respect him in the fact that I'm sure being President of the United States is an immensely difficult job that attracts a lot of unfair criticism and attention. However, it pretty much ends there, I have little respect for how he's handled much of his presidency.

Murat, Berkowitz is talking about East Coast academics in that essay. He even prefaces it by referring to "members of the intellectual class." He's not discussing Joe Citizen.

But let's pretend he's referring to all of us. So he perceives an irrational level of anger directed at El Presidente. This has been talked about a lot, and even given a name: "Bush derangement syndrome." Personally, I don't believe in it. I think it's all just partisanship gone wild.

Allow me to illustrate from my immediate family: My parents-in-law are lifelong Democrats. The worst thing they can call each other is "Republican." They hate and fear the Bush administration. I think they're nuts.

My uncle is a lifelong Republican. The worst thing he can call someone is "liberal." He despises all Democrats. I think he's nuts.

Any movement that encourages you to put the good of your party above the good of the nation is bad mojo. Any demagogue on TV, radio or print that tells you to hate somebody for having slightly different politics is bad mojo. Ideologues who tell you that their way is the only way, and unbelievers should be chased from the body politic? Bad mojo.

I think Seamus talked a little bit about these hyper-partisan cycles the U.S. goes through, and I would appreciate if he wanted to expand on that theme. Apparently we go through this on a semi-regular basis. Personally, I can't wait for it to end. People of good faith can disagree without needing to destroy each other.

Why have respect for someone who has gone down as the 'worst US president in history'? Why have respect for someone who lied not only to the world, but to his country? His own country who voted him in? And then subsequently got the finest men his country had to offer and sent them to die in the name of his lies?

Why have respect for the man when even the initial elections that got him to the position of president are disputed?

respect is earned.....it´s not given to you as a prize when you win an election.

he as done nothing really that would make me respect him.....quite the contrary actually.

How do you respect someone who is a complete pillock , having an idiot in the office of President is an insult to the office of president , electing an idiot to that office reduces the amout of respect that office deserves .

A lifeboatman deserves respect for the job he does , however if he is crap at his job he doesn't deserve the respect that would normally go with his position .

It's a pleasant surprise to see most of the Americans who have posted so far say at least they have a modicum of respect for the office.

I have a certain level of respect for the office he holds, and even understand some of the decisions he's made with which I disagree. Like all presidents (and Prime Ministers, etc.), he does often receive criticism either for things for which he isn't responsible or out of proportion with his statements and actions.

A lot of the younger people (by which I mean people my age :clown: ) I talk to do seem to hate him without any real understanding of why, but then most people have opinions on all sorts of things without going to the trouble of trying to back them up. :clown:

That said, I am somewhat relieved we will be voting someone else into power come November.

If Bush is an idiot, then it just confirms to me that over half of America contains idiots(joking). If you didn't like the Iraq war then you didn't have to re-elect him in 2004. I agree the war's been handled badly, but I disagree that it was a bad decision to oust one of the world most cruel, murderous dictators(although Saddam probably held Iraq together.

As far as I'm concerned, the greatest insult to the office of President is George W. Bush himself.

Lemur wins again.

You know, Jimmy Carter is eligible for another term. :thinking:

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Originally Posted by Lemur

Any movement that encourages you to put the good of your party above the good of the nation is bad mojo. Any demagogue on TV, radio or print that tells you to hate somebody for having slightly different politics is bad mojo. Ideologues who tell you that their way is the only way, and unbelievers should be chased from the body politic? Bad mojo.

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Been discussing this recently. The conclusion reached was that the (current) system is extremely similar to a certain large eastern superpower with an all-pervading Party system running in parallel to actual political offices, except this time with two Parties. I don't know, need to give it some more thought.

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Originally Posted by Marshal Murat

Lemur wins again.

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Hey, Murat, that ain't what it's about. At least I hope it ain't. It's fun to bat ideas back and forth, see which ones make it over the net. If the Backroom ever became all about winning, two inevitable problems would arise:

1. There would be no point in reading and digesting responses to your posts, since all you would want to do is beat them down. You wouldn't listen so much as reload.
2. Any change in your opinion would count as a loss, where in fact it is a win, 'cause it means we're learning things.

Just some thoughts.

And speaking of people who reload rather than listen, Vladimir, why do you suppose Carter is eligible? I know you're being silly, but is there some clause somewhere that puts a time cap on term limits?

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Originally Posted by Lemur

And speaking of people who reload rather than listen, Vladimir, why do you suppose Carter is eligible? I know you're being silly, but is there some clause somewhere that puts a time cap on term limits?

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You do know that Carter only served 1 term, right?

The office of the president is a responsibility, not an honor. When the current resident of that office pretty much decides to do what he wants, shirks his responsibilities, and attempts to turn the office into a throne room, he gets nothing but contempt from me.

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Originally Posted by drone

You do know that Carter only served 1 term, right?

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Completely slipped my mind, thanks for the reality check. So by that reasoning we have both Carter and Bush Senior available. Vote for experience! Carter/Bush '08!

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Originally Posted by Lemur

Completely slipped my mind, thanks for the reality check. So by that reasoning we have both Carter and Bush Senior available. Vote for experience! Carter/Bush '08!

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Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

OH

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

MY

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

GOD!

:fainting:

He's not my president, I don't have a president.

Myrddraal, I think it's high time all of you foreigners admitted that you're living on borrowed time in America's world.

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...ade_France.jpg

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Originally Posted by Lemur

Completely slipped my mind, thanks for the reality check. So by that reasoning we have both Carter and Bush Senior available. Vote for experience! Carter/Bush '08!

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Which side of the Looking Glass is this? Who are you people and what have you done with the White Rabbit? Why am I wearing a dress? :help: :dizzy2: :inquisitive:

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Originally Posted by Spino

Which side of the Looking Glass is this? Who are you people and what have you done with the White Rabbit? Why am I wearing a dress? :help: :dizzy2: :inquisitive:

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Relax, relax. He's OK: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/membe...poster&t=98813

The man ultimately responsible for killing over 5,000 americans in a terrorist attack is still walking around over 7 years later.

Our economy is in serious trouble and we're involved in a foriegn occupation that was completely unnecessary, and is costing us (the American Taxpayers) trillions of dollars.

It's kinda hard to respect someone who has totally failed at their job. If you think that a CEO of ANY corporation would still be around after making so many mistakes and having an approval rating of less than 20%, well...

Respecting someone because of the position they hold, or the position itself...

BLASPHEMY

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Originally Posted by Rameusb5

The man ultimately responsible for killing over 5,000 americans in a terrorist attack is still walking around over 7 years later.

Our economy is in serious trouble and we're involved in a foriegn occupation that was completely unnecessary, and is costing us (the American Taxpayers) trillions of dollars.

It's kinda hard to respect someone who has totally failed at their job. If you think that a CEO of ANY corporation would still be around after making so many mistakes and having an approval rating of less than 20%, well...

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:inquisitive:

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Originally Posted by Rameusb5

If you think that a CEO of ANY corporation would still be around after making so many mistakes and having an approval rating of less than 20%, well...

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He wouldn't be around, but he would get a multi-million dollar severance package. ~D

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Originally Posted by drone

He wouldn't be around, but he would get a multi-million dollar severance package. ~D

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I sincerely doubt that the presidential retirement package is bad...

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

I sincerely doubt that the presidential retirement package is bad...

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It's nice, but that's retirement, not dismissal.

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Originally Posted by drone

It's nice, but that's retirement, not dismissal.

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Well, he would've gotten it if he wasn't re-elected, and not getting re-elected would be a dismissal...

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Well, he would've gotten it if he wasn't re-elected, and not getting re-elected would be a dismissal...

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There is retirement (forced through term limits or losing elections, on a four year time scale), or dismissal (impeachment and conviction, or disgraced resignation, at any time during a term).

Bringing the CEO analogy into the discussion is flawed.

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

:inquisitive:

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Please feel free to post your corrections.

I'm sure they will totally make Mr. Bush look like the best president ever. :dizzy2:

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Originally Posted by Rameusb5

Please feel free to post your corrections.

I'm sure they will totally make Mr. Bush look like the best president ever. :dizzy2:

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No no, please continue.

http://www.dennis4president.com/

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Originally Posted by drone

Bringing the CEO analogy into the discussion is flawed.

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Why?

The CEO is responsible for the state of the company. The president is responsible for the state of the country.

It's not that big of a stretch.

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Originally Posted by Rameusb5

Why?

The CEO is responsible for the state of the company. The president is responsible for the state of the country.

It's not that big of a stretch.

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Regardless of their job responsibilities, how they get hired and "fired" are two completely different topics.

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

No no, please continue.

http://www.dennis4president.com/

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What an amazing argument!

:wall:

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Originally Posted by Rameusb5

The man ultimately responsible for killing over 5,000 americans in a terrorist attack is still walking around over 7 years later.

Our economy is in serious trouble and we're involved in a foriegn occupation that was completely unnecessary, and is costing us (the American Taxpayers) trillions of dollars.

It's kinda hard to respect someone who has totally failed at their job. If you think that a CEO of ANY corporation would still be around after making so many mistakes and having an approval rating of less than 20%, well...

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Since he isn't going to expand aside from his modified quote of your post...

From Vladimir's bolding:
Only ~3,000 people were killed in the 9/11 attacks, not all of those were US citizens. Potential related deaths from the pollution probably cannot be tallied accurately. After Sept 11, 2008 it will be "over 7 years later" (Vladimir missed that one).

The cost of war is somewhere around $500 billion at this point. The economy is in serious trouble though, not sure why Vladimir thinks it's not.

Bush's approval rating is around 30%, Congress's is around 20%. And Bush hasn't totally failed, he will stand as an excellent example of how not to be President. ~D

Bush's performance has been bad enough, no need to exaggerate it.

Thank you for the clarifications.

As for the # of people killed in 9/11, I had thought it was just over 5,000. I stand corrected. It still doesn't detract even slightly from the fact that Bin Laudin is still a free man.

As for the cost, well, we aren't pulled out yet. The projected costs that I have seen for the war (when all is said and done) is in the trillions, which is what I quoted. I should have been more clear by saying it WILL cost us trillions.

I also thought that Bush's approval rating dipped below 20% at one point. Maybe I was confused with Chaney. In any case, it's pretty fricken low, and for good reason.

I'll own my statistical errors but it doesn't really change the fact that President Bush is a total failure as a president. Unless your the CEO of Exxon, of course.

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Originally Posted by drone

The cost of war is somewhere around $500 billion at this point. The economy is in serious trouble though, not sure why Vladimir thinks it's not.

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Actually, if you factor in long term future costs of the war along with the fact that all of these funds are borrowed from other countries like China/Japan/ect... (which by the way Americans are only paying the interest on) its into the trillions easily and might even enter tens of trillions if the debt isn't payed (and by the looks of it, probably won't) shortly