Things heating up...(Kosovo)

It seems that February might be D-Month for Kosovo. Most regional politicians have stated the the Kosovo Parliament declare independance during this month (http://en.rian.ru/world/20080204/98356616.html).

Although this is not certain, since there hadn't been any strong voices of support from the US or EU save the usual rhetorics how that could be the only solution that they've been repeating for some time now, there is a strong possibility that Kosovo might declare independence unilateraly, and wait for recognition from individual countries, rather than UN as a whole.

Most EU countries support Kosovo independance, but the "union" is not "united" completely. Some countries, like Romania, Spain and Slovakia have already stated that they are against it, among others. Greece is also not too keen on this scenario, as it deals with Albanian nationalism in it's territory, albeit in a more mild form. EU is about to send a police and justice mission to Kosovo, which is seen as a prelude for independence by the prime minister, Kostunica and his DSS party. Kostunica threatened that Serbia won't sign pre-agreement for membership in the EU if it sends the mission (which is quite a precedent in itself - an eastern European country saying we won't join if you do this, usually it was the other way around :laugh4:). The problem is that Kostunica is in coallition with Tadic's DS party which is ready to sign the agreement with EU no matter what happens with the mission.

If Kosovo do proclaim its independence after the arrival of EU mission, still there is a question what will be Serbia's response. All three top politicians in Serbia - Kostunica (DSS party), Tadic (DS) and Nikolic (SRS), are against independance, but their positions differ when it comes to response. Tadic likely won't do anything to jeopardize EU membership, so his response would be probably "ok, let's move on"... Kostunica is likely to oppose it stronly by political means, and Nikolic would do likewise. If Kosovo declares independance it could happen that DSS breaks of with DS and instead form a goverment with SRS (http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/...ews/Serbia.php). Military response is out of the question in any scenario since there is no public support for it, and Serbia's military is in no shape to actively threaten anything.

Political response probably means blocking Kosovo in all international and European institutions Serbia is a member of. That by itself wouldn't mean too much, but Russia has expressed that it, too, would block Kosovo everywhere and that it would reconsider it's position on self-proclaimed independent regions in the future (http://en.rian.ru/russia/20080204/98319651.htmlhtml).

As the title says, things are heating up. What's going to happen and what should happen? Are we looking at another Cyprus? Is this finally formally relegating UN to the status of impotent organization? Will Kosovo be able to exist if it's blocked by several countries in the region? Is this finally show EU double standards since it's position on the ex-yu conflict was supposed to be the same?

An experct from the speech by Lord Owen at the council of Europe in 1992:

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The London Conference laid down that the Tito map was sacrosanct unless changed by mutual agreement I have yet to see any sign of change in that map by mutual agreement. Let us take that map as our point of reference in the negotiations. If we do that, we accept that the peoples of different nations will live in different countries — that Serbs will live in Croatia, Serbs and Croats will live in Bosnia-Herzegovina, Albanians will live in Serbia and Montenegro, and that Muslims and Hungarians will live in Serbia and Montenegro.

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I think Serbia should call Russian soldiers for something like Peaceful Mission.
Russia will never leave Serbia and help holding Kosovo with Serbia. Of course officially it will be neutral country which help people of Kosovo, while EU is not able to do anything (like we can see on Czad example).

On the other hand EU is so scared about gas, that they will do nothing exept yelling for a 2 or 3 weeks. Albania won't do anything because they are scared of Russians too.

There is one problem - when Russian soldiers are arriving into one place, they don't like leaving it. So you should have been prepared for a long neighbourhood.

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

As the title says, things are heating up. What's going to happen and what should happen? Are we looking at another Cyprus? Is this finally formally relegating UN to the status of impotent organization? Will Kosovo be able to exist if it's blocked by several countries in the region? Is this finally show EU double standards since it's position on the ex-yu conflict was supposed to be the same?

An experct from the speech by Lord Owen at the council of Europe in 1992:

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The United Nations has shown itself to be falling into the imptent stage for several years, I dont think Kosovo will cause it to be ruled as a formal status. To much potential still exists for the United Nations if they can pull their collective heads out of their rear-ends.

Now the interesting position is what will the European Union do in regards to an independence declaration by Kosovo.

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Originally Posted by Redleg

The United Nations has shown itself to be falling into the imptent stage for several years, I dont think Kosovo will cause it to be ruled as a formal status. To much potential still exists for the United Nations if they can pull their collective heads out of their rear-ends.

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I'd have thought that certain countries would be glad that there is no imminent danger of the UN becoming the government of the world.

i would laugh out loud if russia announced a peace-keeping mission to the serb dominated north of kosovo, after which Serbia encourages the absent kosovar serbs to return, and then quietly annexes the north of kosovo in a year or two's time.

Serbia did not annex anything - Kosovo was and is part of Serbia.

i know, and i understand, but the reality is that kosovo IS about to declare independance, much as i am unhappy with it as i support the principle of the sovereign nation state.

i would laugh if serbia worked with russia and cooked up a plan that allowed them to retain as much of kosovo as possible, it would be one in the eye for the EU, and somewhat less painful a result for serbia.

I feel sorry for Serbia - it's like New England seceeding from the US or Rome from Italy - as Kosovo contains all their history and it's where their kings were crowned.

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Originally Posted by Redleg

Now the interesting position is what will the European Union do in regards to an independence declaration by Kosovo.

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That will be interesting indeed. EU still can't recognize Kosovo as a single political entity, it has to be done by individual countries within the EU. At least five member countries have explicitly stated that they won't recognize Kosovo under any circumnstance, and many other member states aren't too keen on it too, but the Big Three (Germany, France, UK) are ready to recognize it. UK has been pushing for independent Kosovo for quite some time now. I'm not sure why, since they could potentialy end up in the similar situation, but that's another point. France and Germany weren't so thrilled by the idea, but I'm guessing they don't consider Kosovo so important that they want to cross the US.
What is a suprise for me, is that Slovenia, which is now holding council presidency, is so fervently in favour of independence. Serbia was the biggest market for their products in ex-Yu, and Slovenia had undertaken serious and expensive steps to increase its share in the Serbian market in the last decade. This is gonna seriously affect Serbian-Slovenian relationship

Serbian foreign affairs minister announced that there are about 100 countries in the world that won't recognize independent Kosovo. How accurate is his assesment, I can't say, but it is clear that countries are very divided on how should this be handled. There is a good chance that Kosovo ends up as a black spot in Europe, pretty much cut off by many of it's neighbours.

Also it is interesting to say that the idea of joining EU is becoming less and less popular in Serbia. Around the year 2000, when Milosevic lost the elections, more than 85% of the population was in favour of joining EU. Now it's between 69% and 72%. But 75% of the population said that it wasn't ready to trade Kosovo for EU membership...

What the heck is the point of splitting up anyway? Serbia is not going to vapourize.

One thing I do not get is why in the world would EU be so eager to split Serbia. Why create yet another muslim state in Europe? Isn't Albania enough along with Bosnia? Plus, Albanians already have a country, why would they need two?

Kosovar independence is an all-around bad idea that will come back to bite Europe.

What I find interesting is it is the first time in Europe from the end of WW2 that a country will be created by an act of war…

I agree with previous posts. We can't agree on giving Kosovo Albanians only because they emigrated there and then had 10 children for each. If they want their own state, they should go to Albania.

At the moment Albanians from Kosovo are probably biggest enemies of stabilisation on Balkans. Don't you remember 2002 when they tried to invade Macedonia?

Well that is the bugbear of democracy, majority rule. So if the majority want to go they can. Now if it does democratically declare independence the only political method left to keep it part of Serbia is war.

So under the same principle northern part of Kosovo, where Serbs are a majority, can secede from Kosovo? And is there going to be an end to that? Or are borders gonna be changed every couple of decades when ethnic structure changes in some areas?

Don't you think that could encourage ethnic cleansing? Clean the area of undesirable ethinc groups and claim it as your own by majority of voices...

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Originally Posted by KrooK

I agree with previous posts. We can't agree on giving Kosovo Albanians only because they emigrated there and then had 10 children for each. If they want their own state, they should go to Albania.

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I agree with KrooK? :inquisitive:

Well, we can safely say the world will end any second now. ~:)

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Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars

I agree with KrooK? :inquisitive:

Well, we can safely say the world will end any second now. ~:)

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Hmm...

He does have point under that blatant attack against Kosovans, If Albania is already there, why not go there? It really will end up become a cycle of idiocy, when will Wessex gain indepenence from England or something?

In fact having the northern Kosovan Serbs secede from Kosovo would be very funny.

I think it would be wise of the EU to think about relations with Russia before making decisions on Kosovo.

Also IMHO all the stufffrom the media is really, really Kosovan orientated. I mean it's like they never did anything bad either.

“Don't you remember 2002 when they tried to invade Macedonia?” They didn’t.
They live here, and are a huge minority (Gostivar, Tetovo going up to South to Ohrid).

“Well that is the bugbear of democracy, majority rule. So if the majority want to go they can. Now if it does democratically declare independence the only political method left to keep it part of Serbia is war.” Well, these very democratic rules didn’t apply for the Serbs in Croatia (Knin, Vukovar) and Bosnia (Doboj, Derventa, etc) where they represented 90 to 95 % of the population and were bombed to stay in Recognised Countries.
And it won’t apply to the Serbs of Kosovo…

So basically democracy is NOT for the Serbs…:inquisitive:

“We can't agree on giving Kosovo Albanians only because they emigrated there and then had 10 children for each”: Absolute Serbian Extremist (and Macedonian, Croatian and Bosnian) propaganda. Albanians are nice people (I worked with them), mostly educated, speaking few languages, and nationalists as all the others. So, yes they have their dream of a great Albania and played their cards very well. However, no need of this kind of ….

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Originally Posted by Bopa the Magyar

Hmm...

He does have point under that blatant attack against Kosovans, If Albania is already there, why not go there? It really will end up become a cycle of idiocy, when will Wessex gain indepenence from England or something?

In fact having the northern Kosovan Serbs secede from Kosovo would be very funny.

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agreed, this is wha i alluded to above. :D

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Absolute Serbian Extremist (and Macedonian, Croatian and Bosnian) propaganda. Albanians are nice people (I worked with them), mostly educated, speaking few languages, and nationalists as all the others. So, yes they have their dream of a great Albania and played their cards very well. However, no need of this kind of ….

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Yep - add slave traders, prostitutes, mafia, drug dealers and rest. Ahh and of course smugglers of everything. That kind of dreams are always being finished into sea of blood. Great Germany, Great Ukraine, Great Bulgaria, Great France.
What did they end?

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They didn’t.
They live here, and are a huge minority (Gostivar, Tetovo going up to South to Ohrid).

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They were about 1/6 of citizens of Macedonia. After leaving Kosovo their number increases to 1/3. Then they demand majority changes into Macedonia, and when democratically elected government did not agreed, they tried to take control over Macedonia. Luckily a bit earlier Macedonians stopped then next to capital Skopje.

“add slave traders, prostitutes, mafia, drug dealers and rest”: Yep, they have their mafia. Not the only one… However to put all a population in the same bag is too far to push…
That could be said for every nation…:laugh4:

“They were about 1/6 of citizens of Macedonia.” Where did you pick your figures? Even if I don’t think they are not near 50% of the Macedonian population they represent probably 40 %. And in some towns they are the majority…
The problem is in Macedonia, like in Kosovo, the Albanians always refused to participate in a census, which allow them to play on that after (like the 2 millions in Kosovo which is just a imaginary figure).
However, it is still untrue to pretend:
1: Albanians invaded Macedonia (they lived here for centuries)
2: They demand majority change after NATO campaign.
They demanded a fair part of post in police, administration etc, based on ethnicity. They wanted Albanians recognised as a second official language and others kind of things.
It is true that some of their leaders believed that the West will give to them what it gave to the Kosovars but it failed for several reasons…

“Luckily a bit earlier Macedonians stopped then next to capital Skopje.” Albanians are living in Skopje…
They were “stopped” at a Petrol Station, burned probably for other reason that political…
What the Macedonians you are speaking about? The Serbian minority, the Turks, the Egyptians (yes they are some people claiming to be Egyptians and they base their claim on an Isis representation), the Bulgarians etc. And all these minorities are fed-up of the rows between Albanians and Macedonians…
The “war” in Macedonia was more riots than something else; the aim was to initiate a NATO intervention, as the Albanians Nationalists succeeded to do in Kosovo. You have to remember that all these leaders were taught in a Communist regime, where the political game is the goal to reach… And they are good at it. You probably have some in Poland…

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Originally Posted by Furunculu5

agreed, this is wha i alluded to above. :D

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That's actually what ex prime minister of Serbia suggested. The minute after Kosovo "declares" independence, northern Serbian municipalities should do the same, using the exact same text with exactly the same arguments, just switching positions of the words "albanians" and "serbs".

I assume that N. Kosovo would then opt for annexation with Serbia making it a really stupid circle for them do to the Albanians of Kosovo.

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

That's actually what ex prime minister of Serbia suggested. The minute after Kosovo "declares" independence, northern Serbian municipalities should do the same, using the exact same text with exactly the same arguments, just switching positions of the words "albanians" and "serbs".

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I would be delighted if the Serbs, with Russian backing, marched into northern Kosovo on February the 18th and annexed a portion of the newly 'independent' Kosovo to an area not in excess of the pre-2000 Kosovar-Serb population as a proportion of the total population.

I, as a British Atlanticist, would cheers the Serbs and the Russians on, because a post-sovereign Nation State is not going to be a pretty place for the rest of us in the decades to come.

Kosovo is Serbian national territory, and should remain so, but in the absence of this option Serbia should look after its Serbs in what will otherwise become forign territory.

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Originally Posted by Furunculu5

I would be delighted if the Serbs, with Russian backing, marched into northern Kosovo on February the 18th and annexed a portion of the newly 'independent' Kosovo to an area not in excess of the pre-2000 Kosovar-Serb population as a proportion of the total population.

I, as a British Atlanticist, would cheers the Serbs and the Russians on, because a post-sovereign Nation State is not going to be a pretty place for the rest of us in the decades to come.

Kosovo is Serbian national territory, and should remain so, but in the absence of this option Serbia should look after its Serbs in what will otherwise become forign territory.

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I agree.

To be honest, I'd be relieved if the Sami people took a piece of northern Norway and declared independence, as long as it means no more Sami-TV on the state channel. :2thumbsup:

If Kosovo should not be split up because the Kosovo-Albanians could go to Albania, then the US should merge with the UK again. :2thumbsup:

The dumb part about the split-up, is that it only delay a problem, the Serbs will not dissapear.

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Kosovo is Serbian national territory, and should remain so, but in the absence of this option Serbia should look after its Serbs in what will otherwise become forign territory.

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Where the albanians make up the majority, no one cares about "Serbian national territory", whatever that is supposed to be good for.

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Originally Posted by Viking

The dumb part about the split-up, is that it only delay a problem, the Serbs will not dissapear.

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Actually, they've beeb disappearing at a steady pace for quite awhile now. People tend to try and stay where they were born, where their house is and where their friends and family are, but I guess there is a limit of how many times you can see your kids going to school in an armoured bus, with bars on the windows and with military escort...

In Pristina there was about 40,000 Serbs, now there are only several hundreds, most of them now living together in a few apartment buildings under KFOR guard, kids playing football in the halls because they can't go outside. Anyone interested in a documentary - part 1, part 2, part 3, part 4, part 5, part 6

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Originally Posted by Viking

Where the albanians make up the majority, no one cares about "Serbian national territory", whatever that is supposed to be good for.

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??? :dizzy2:

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Actually, they've beeb disappearing at a steady pace for quite awhile now. People tend to try and stay where they were born, where their house is and where their friends and family are, but I guess there is a limit of how many times you can see your kids going to school in an armoured bus, with bars on the windows and with military escort...

In Pristina there was about 40,000 Serbs, now there are only several hundreds, most of them now living together in a few apartment buildings under KFOR guard, kids playing football in the halls because they can't go outside. Anyone interested in a documentary - part 1, part 2, part 3, part 4, part 5, part 6

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They'll still be found in Serbia.

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??? :dizzy2:

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It's the people who lives on the lands that really matters. A state is there to serve, not to control for the purpose of controlling.

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Originally Posted by KrooK

Yep - add slave traders, prostitutes, mafia, drug dealers and rest. Ahh and of course smugglers of everything.

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To someone from western europe, those words can be used to describe any country/group east of germany and austria, like poles, the baltic, the entire balkan, russians etc. I find it funny when they use those words on each other...

It's like a dumpster really; to someone outside the dumpster, it seems pointless to find the cleanest place in the dumpster, it's a dump anyway.

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Originally Posted by Viking

To be honest, I'd be relieved if the Sami people took a piece of northern Norway and declared independence, as long as it means no more Sami-TV on the state channel. :2thumbsup:

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I say we put a huge wall on Dovre, with a one-way road through it - anyone dumb enough to go north won't be allowed back.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

To someone from western europe, those words can be used to describe any country/group east of germany and austria, like poles, the baltic, the entire balkan, russians etc. I find it funny when they use those words on each other...

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Well, you need to revise your geography if you think Norway is in western Europe. It's northern Europe. And the Balkans are south of Germany and Austria. Or were you talking about political divisions of Europe? In that case you need to revise your history since the cold war is over for quite some time now and that division is meaningless.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

It's like a dumpster really; to someone outside the dumpster, it seems pointless to find the cleanest place in the dumpster, it's a dump anyway.

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Don't forget that that "dump" (slave traders, prostitutes, drugs) ends up in your house in the end. It seems that you got so clean while you were climbing on a moral pedestal, that you felt the need to have constant influx of dump. Or do you think that a person from <insert "eastearn" country> who sells a thirteen year old girl is worse than a person from <insert "western" country> who actually rapes her?

I don't like going off topic, but I hate when people generalize, and are rude while doing it. Don't use analogies like that anymore.

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Or were you talking about political divisions of Europe? In that case you need to revise your history since the cold war is over for quite some time now and that division is meaningless.

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May be in theory, but the gap in wealth is still incredibly huge, and so the division is still very true. And as far as division within the eastern bloc goes - to an outsider, it looks mostly the same. Trying to see who's the best seems pointless. We care about the teams playing in the premier league, who's number one in the conference league isn't really interesting or relevant at all.

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

I don't like going off topic, but I hate when people generalize, and are rude while doing it. Don't use analogies like that anymore.

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And yet you didn't find the original statement rude or generalizing...? :inquisitive:

Well, I don't think I would call that gap "incredibly huge", but I don't want to enter a discussion about that now. What I am certain of is that "dumpster" comparison is unappropriate for difference in wealth.

Krook did say some truth. Namely, Kosovo is, since 1999, the biggest entry point for drugs, slave, prostitutes, weapons etc... that's going to western Europe. I can't discern from his post did he meant "Kosovo" or "Kosovo Albanians". If he meant Kosovo than he was completely right. If he meant Kosovo Albanians, than he was wrong.

Even he meant Kosovo Albanians, it still isn't even remotely close to what you said - calling a territory of several million sq km which several hundred millions people consider their home -> a dumpster.

Let's not go OT anymore. You have a right to your opinion, even if you call my home a dumpster.

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To someone from western europe, those words can be used to describe any country/group east of germany and austria, like poles, the baltic, the entire balkan, russians etc. I find it funny when they use those words on each other...

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As Sarmatian said. Who is worse - those who sell drugs to dealer od the one who sell children. Who is worse - someone who sell people to work camp or someone who is running work camp. Someone who might not like Jews or someone who tell that he likes them and burns their churches at night.

Visit Poland, stay for a week and then visit Kosovo. Feel the difference. Visit Warsaw then visit Moscow with black friend. Feel the diffence.

We can't allow on another terror zone into Europe. Kosovo will be terror zone. Maybe there is many good people who just want to live peacefully but province is being controlled by criminals - and they alone will not allow on loosing control over it.

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Originally Posted by KrooK

As Sarmatian said. Who is worse - those who sell drugs to dealer od the one who sell children. Who is worse - someone who sell people to work camp or someone who is running work camp. Someone who might not like Jews or someone who tell that he likes them and burns their churches at night.

Visit Poland, stay for a week and then visit Kosovo. Feel the difference. Visit Warsaw then visit Moscow with black friend. Feel the diffence.

We can't allow on another terror zone into Europe. Kosovo will be terror zone. Maybe there is many good people who just want to live peacefully but province is being controlled by criminals - and they alone will not allow on loosing control over it.

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shouldn't it be all the more reason to slowly bring it in to the EU and make/help it get rid of the crimnals....

Guys, less attacks on nations and ethnic groups and more discussion on politics and ways forward.

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Originally Posted by KrooK

Visit Warsaw then visit Moscow with black friend. Feel the diffence.

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What is this supposed to mean? Have you ever to Moscow? I remember a considerable amount of those who I believe were French Algerians.

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Krook did say some truth. Namely, Kosovo is, since 1999, the biggest entry point for drugs, slave, prostitutes, weapons etc... that's going to western Europe. I can't discern from his post did he meant "Kosovo" or "Kosovo Albanians". If he meant Kosovo than he was completely right. If he meant Kosovo Albanians, than he was wrong.

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I read and understood it as "kosovo albanians", and responded as such.

But still... Poland is the biggest entry point for drugs coming here, the balts are a steady supply of thieves and the russkies have their mafia, so there's no real reason to rant about Kosovo the country like that either. As Jesus said, look at the log in your own eye before you look at the toothpick in your next(or something like that)...

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What is this supposed to mean? Have you ever to Moscow? I remember a considerable amount of those who I believe were French Algerians.

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Never been there and I don't think I go.

Once upon a day I searched at youtube and thats why I will not go to Moscow

WARNING - BRUTAL
http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=DYONyy3MQO4
http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=LWZ8hB...eature=related
http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=mQa4S0DN9L4

Difference beetwen Warsaw and Moscow is that we send them to jails while Russians to police units.

Getting back to Kosovo. I wonder what would happened if Kosovo became independent?
It would unite with Albania or something?

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Originally Posted by KrooK

Getting back to Kosovo. I wonder what would happened if Kosovo became independent?

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Perhaps it would just be an independent nation?:yes:

Sky News has just anounced that Kosovo will declare independance on sunday.

The flying fecal matter is about the impact the rotating air circulation unit :oops:

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Krook did say some truth. Namely, Kosovo is, since 1999, the biggest entry point for drugs, slave, prostitutes, weapons etc... that's going to western Europe.

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No , that would be Poland and the Baltic States , then you could add Ukraine , then down to Romania , Bulgaria .

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If they want their own state, they should go to Albania.

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If Serbs want their own State they should go to Serbia , after all they only emigrated and had children .:dizzy2:

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Perhaps it would just be an independent nation?

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What you mean like Serbia or Poland ?

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

No , that would be Poland and the Baltic States , then you could add Ukraine , then down to Romania , Bulgaria .

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Well, I remember reading in just about every text that deals with that sort of stuff that Kosovo is the single biggest entry point. Could be wrong, though. Maybe it's just drugs and weapons...

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

If Serbs want their own State they should go to Serbia , after all they only emigrated and had children . :dizzy2:

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:dizzy2: :dizzy2: What are you talking about???

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

What you mean like Serbia or Poland?

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Yeah, that's the perfect comparison :wall: :stupido:


Anyway, it seems that independence will be proclaimed tommorow at 17:00h local time (I think it's GMT +1). There was quit a bit of Albanian cars traveling through Serbia, from Europe going to Kosovo, often traveling in small convoys (5 or more cars together) fully adorned with albanian flags and and other national symbols. Fortunately, provocations were ignored and and no harm was done...

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Well, I remember reading in just about every text that deals with that sort of stuff that Kosovo is the single biggest entry point. Could be wrong, though. Maybe it's just drugs and weapons...

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No , not at all , though it depends on what drugs you are talking about , Ireland is a popular entry point , as is Spain and Italy , so is Britain or Holland .
The Balkan route is very active from Asia , Africa and Asia Minor , but the main point of entry there is Greece not Kosovo . For Afghan/Pakistni herion its mainly through former Soviets and the Baltics , easily demonstrated by the huge surge in opium processing facilities there.
As for weapons , once again it is the former Soviet republics , though of course the former Yugoslavia is getting plenty of action there too (not just Kosovo) .
Now of course since you are talking of drug entry into the EU .... so I wonder where the EU put its money and effort into tackling the Balkan route ?....it wouldn't by any chance be Greece would it ?:inquisitive:
Where is the Greek/Kosovan border ? There must be one because if Greece is the entry point in the EU then the drugs must be going there from Kosovo right ...if of course Kosovo is what you claim it is .:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
But indeed we must consider the E.U. actions in Greece to stop the trade , which is why for the Balkan route it is shifting to Bulgaria and Romania . Now Bulgaria almost has a border with Kosovo doesn't it , sort of seperated by something . That something must be the route for the drugs eh , so that means that Serbia is full of drug smugglers , damn serbians they are all drug dealers .

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What are you talking about???

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Its exactly the same as what some people are saying about Kosovo , if it is true for Kosovo then it is true for Serbia . Unless of course it it is absolute nonsense in both cases .
So Sarmatian which is it ? true in both cases or nonsense in both cases ?

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Yeah, that's the perfect comparison

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But it is , both were created and have come and gone and come and gone with the changes of time , both have had changes in population , both have existed in various forms comprising of varying territory .

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

What you mean like Serbia or Poland ?

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Like about every country that declared independence and was recognised internationally, including Serbia, Poland, Belgium and Ireland.

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

No , not at all , though it depends on what drugs you are talking about , Ireland is a popular entry point , as is Spain and Italy , so is Britain or Holland .
The Balkan route is very active from Asia , Africa and Asia Minor , but the main point of entry there is Greece not Kosovo . For Afghan/Pakistni herion its mainly through former Soviets and the Baltics , easily demonstrated by the huge surge in opium processing facilities there.
As for weapons , once again it is the former Soviet republics , though of course the former Yugoslavia is getting plenty of action there too (not just Kosovo) .
Now of course since you are talking of drug entry into the EU .... so I wonder where the EU put its money and effort into tackling the Balkan route ?....it wouldn't by any chance be Greece would it ?:inquisitive:
Where is the Greek/Kosovan border ? There must be one because if Greece is the entry point in the EU then the drugs must be going there from Kosovo right ...if of course Kosovo is what you claim it is .:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
But indeed we must consider the E.U. actions in Greece to stop the trade , which is why for the Balkan route it is shifting to Bulgaria and Romania . Now Bulgaria almost has a border with Kosovo doesn't it , sort of seperated by something . That something must be the route for the drugs eh , so that means that Serbia is full of drug smugglers , damn serbians they are all drug dealers .

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Of course kosovo isn't the only one, but it very important link. There is no Greek/Kosovan border, I never said theres is :inquisitive:, where did you see that ? But two countries between Kosovo and Greece are Macedonia and Albania, which both have very well organized Albanian mafia branches. Kosovo is being used as an organizing point because of almost non-existant state control and sympathetic view toward most drug lords since they, in no small part, financed terrorist groups before 1999.

I never said that there aren't drug dealers in Serbia and that a portion of it doesn't pass through Serbia. Why are you putting words in my mouth? You're refuting arguments I never made. But compared to Kosovo drugs that pass through Serbia is insignificant, unless you use HoreTore's dumpster analogy and lump everything together.

And I never said "Albanians", I said Kosovo, so your remark "all serbs are drug dealers" is totally inappropriate. I have never assigned attributes to nations or even parts of nations. I reserve that for individuals. Maybe it's enough for you to read the name of a Balkan country under some user location to label him/her a nationalist, but I have never done that and never will, thank you very much. When I remember how many times I was labelled a nationalist, terrorist, fascist and were generally pissed on just because I'm from Serbia, I'm suprised that I still have the patience to explain that stuff to people. So cut elementary school psychology, please.

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Its exactly the same as what some people are saying about Kosovo , if it is true for Kosovo then it is true for Serbia . Unless of course it it is absolute nonsense in both cases .
So Sarmatian which is it ? true in both cases or nonsense in both cases ?

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It's nonsense in both cases. I never said that Kosovo Albanians should go to Albania! You really need to stop putting words in my mouth. Please read through the thread again and qoute me where I said it.

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

But it is , both were created and have come and gone and come and gone with the changes of time , both have had changes in population , both have existed in various forms comprising of varying territory .

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When has Kosovo "come and gone"? :laugh4: The closest thing Kosovo had to "coming" was being a turkish vilayet during ottoman occupation...

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I never said that Kosovo Albanians should go to Albania! You really need to stop putting words in my mouth.

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Where did I say that it was you who said it ?
The post you refer to has quotes from 3 people , was it a quote from you ?
No
Did I say it was a quote from you ?
No
So perhaps you need to read the post and stop putting words in my mouth :yes:

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So cut elementary school psychology, please.

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OK , but only if you can manage some elementary school reading so you don't get yourself confused again .

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Of course kosovo isn't the only one, but it very important link.

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Thats a quote from you :2thumbsup: , which is different from your first statement about it which seemed very certain ,and different again from your follow up statement which seemed less certain , shall we carry on until there is nothing of certainty left from your initial statement on that particular issue ?

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When has Kosovo "come and gone"? The closest thing Kosovo had to "coming" was being a turkish vilayet during ottoman occupation...

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Funny that , Kosovo has been a province of many countries and empires , with ever shifting boundries , even as a vilayet of the Ottoman Empire its boundaries changed with changing times .

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Where did I say that it was you who said it ?
The post you refer to has quotes from 3 people , was it a quote from you ?
No
Did I say it was a quote from you ?
No
So perhaps you need to read the post and stop putting words in my mouth :yes: .

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In that post where you said that, you were only qouting me. There were no 3 people. You qouted what I have said, and then responded.

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

OK , but only if you can manage some elementary school reading so you don't get yourself confused again .

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See above

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Thats a quote from you :2thumbsup: , which is different from your first statement about it which seemed very certain ,and different again from your follow up statement which seemed less certain , shall we carry on until there is nothing of certainty left from your initial statement on that particular issue ?

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No... I used the term biggest entry point very loosely, as Kosovo can't be the actual entry point since its landlocked. I meant it is the place from which the distribution was organized,

So, my level of certainty only waivered when it came to the term "entry point", is may have not meant exactly what I wanted to say.

Since you insist, I'll have to to provide some sources:

Parts of the text from Italian newspaper (1998)
"Milan at this juncture has become a crossroads of interests for many fighting groups," a detective with the ROS explained. "These groups include also the Albanians from Kosovo who are among the most dangerous traffickers in drugs and in arms. They are determined men, violent and prepared to go to any lengths. They are capable of coming up with men and arms in a matter of hours. They have deep roots in civil society. They love luxury, fashionable clubs, and restaurants. They have an astonishing amount of ready cash at their disposal. Every night, to keep in practice, they burgle apartments and businesses, moving from one city in Lombardy to the next." whole text

Part of the text from Washington Times (1999)
"The KLA's involvement in drug smuggling as a means of raising funds for weapons is long-standing. Intelligence documents show it has aligned itself with an extensive organized crime network in Albania that smuggles heroin to buyers throughout Western Europe and the United States. Drug agents in five countries believe the cartel is one of the most powerful heroin smuggling organizations in the world." whole text

Part of the text by Peter Klebnikov:
"The benefits of the drug trade are evident around Pristina -- more so than Western aid. "The new buildings, the better roads, and the sophisticated weapons -- many of these have been bought by drugs," says Michel Koutouzis, the Balkans region expert for the Global Drugs Monitor (OGD), a Paris-based think tank. The repercussions of this drug connection are only now emerging, and many Kosovo observers fear that the province could be evolving into a virtual narco-state under the noses of 49,000 peacekeeping troops.

For hundreds of years, Kosovar Albanian smugglers have been among the world's most accomplished dealers in contraband, aided by a propitious geography of isolated ports and mountainous villages. Virtually every stage of the Balkan heroin business, from refining to end-point distribution, is directed by a loosely knit hierarchy known as "The 15 Families," who answer to the regional clans that run every aspect of Albanian life. " whole text

So this pretty much is what I was trying to say. The route is going through numerous Balkan countries, but it is organized from Kosovo and in that sense Kosovo is the biggest entry point for drugs in Europe. Keep in mind that those text are from almost a decade ago. The situation is even worse now, since those who were then KLA terrorists and drug dealers are now politicians... Finding these texts took me about 10 seconds - I just typed in kosovo drugs in google and clicked on a first few links. Now imagine what would a search of about 10 minutes yield...

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Funny that , Kosovo has been a province of many countries and empires , with ever shifting boundries , even as a vilayet of the Ottoman Empire its boundaries changed with changing times .

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You were comparing Kosovo and Serbia. Kosovo Polje (serbian - Field of Blackbirds) is a geographical term like Alps, or the Great Lakes. Kosovo vilayet was just one of many administrative divisions in ottoman empire, there wasn't anything special about it. Kosovo just gave the name to that particular vilayet. The only connection between the geographical area of Kosovo and Kosovo vilayet is the name. Vilayet encompassed much greater territory than Kosovo Polje. Kosovo as a political entity appears for the first time in the 20th century...

So, no - Kosovo wasn't some kind of a province or a political entity that was conquered by Serbs and than later Ottomans (and btw, that's only two, not "numerous countries and empires").

Serbia and Kosovo aren't comparable. The former is a national stateoriginating in the early middle ages and the latter is a geographical term originating in the early middle ages.

Very nice text if you want to learn more on the subject.

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In that post where you said that, you were only qouting me. There were no 3 people. You qouted what I have said, and then responded.

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Here read this very slowly follow the steps to see if you can comprehend , it isn't hard to do .

1 a quoteIf they want their own state, they should go to Albania.
a response If Serbs want their own State they should go to Serbia , after all they only emigrated and had children

2 You then quote If Serbs want their own State they should go to Serbia , after all they only emigrated and had children
and respond What are you talking about???


3 a quote What are you talking about???
and a response Its exactly the same as what some people are saying about Kosovo , if it is true for Kosovo then it is true for Serbia . Unless of course it it is absolute nonsense in both cases .
So Sarmatian which is it ? true in both cases or nonsense in both cases ?


4 then comesI never said that Kosovo Albanians should go to Albania! You really need to stop putting words in my mouth.
See the problem :idea2: you took a question in stage 3 , applied it to stage 1 and said you never said it , you were not asked if you had made that nonsense statement , you were asked if it was nonsense .
You managed in your own mind to associate a nonsense statement with your own .

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Since you insist, I'll have to to provide some sources:

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Look at that first article you use ....

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Milan at this juncture has become a crossroads of interests for many fighting groups

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many groups eh ...in Italy , that doesn't really back up your claim does it ...

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These groups include also the Albanians from Kosovo who are among the most dangerous traffickers in drugs and in arms.

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So these groups also include Albanians from Kosovo!!!! hmmmm... does it say they are the main ones ? But hey they are among the most dangerous !!! so does that mean they share a place among the dangerous with the Mafia , the Triads or them really really dangerous buggers from Russia .

On to the second ...

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Drug agents in five countries believe the cartel is one of the most powerful heroin smuggling organizations in the world."

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..once again its amongst not THE .


So onto two more statements from yourself

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No... I used the term biggest entry point very loosely, as Kosovo can't be the actual entry point since its landlocked. I meant it is the place from which the distribution was organized,

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The route is going through numerous Balkan countries, but it is organized from Kosovo and in that sense Kosovo is the biggest entry point for drugs in Europe.

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Nope , I am afraid you are wrong again , you will find that it is nice exclusive luxury developments in Spain from which it is organised , with a small sideline in Northen Cyprus for those who got unlucky with law enforcement agencies .
But its OK Sarmatian , I know you just tried to be specific in a claim that can only really be a very very loose generalisation , but you know ....very very loose generalisations don't manage to have the same impact at getting your message across .

Nice demonstrations in Belgrade BTW , I did like that crowd with the funny gesture , you know the sort of strange lifting of a straight right arm with the hand extended , are they copying Donald Duck in that old cartoon ?

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and btw, that's only two, not "numerous countries and empires"

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And BTW did you forget about the Romans , the byzantines ,the Bulgarians and that place called yugoslavia ....or would you like me to add some more ?

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Here read this very slowly follow the steps to see if you can comprehend , it isn't hard to do .

1 a quoteIf they want their own state, they should go to Albania.
a response If Serbs want their own State they should go to Serbia , after all they only emigrated and had children

2 You then quote If Serbs want their own State they should go to Serbia , after all they only emigrated and had children
and respond What are you talking about???


3 a quote What are you talking about???
and a response Its exactly the same as what some people are saying about Kosovo , if it is true for Kosovo then it is true for Serbia . Unless of course it it is absolute nonsense in both cases .
So Sarmatian which is it ? true in both cases or nonsense in both cases ?


4 then comesI never said that Kosovo Albanians should go to Albania! You really need to stop putting words in my mouth.
See the problem :idea2: you took a question in stage 3 , applied it to stage 1 and said you never said it , you were not asked if you had made that nonsense statement , you were asked if it was nonsense .
You managed in your own mind to associate a nonsense statement with your own .

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Ok. I asked you to explain your statement and instead of explaining that it was nonsense and you just said as an answer to another ridiculous statement, you continued arguing with me as if I said the original statement. But, ok let's call it a misunderstanding.

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Look at that first article you use ....

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Maybe this backs up my claim better:

From the guardian (2000)
International agencies fighting the drug trade are warning that Kosovo has become a "smugglers' paradise" supplying up to 40% of the heroin sold in Europe and North America. whole text

National Post (2000)
The chaos created by 10 years of war in the Balkans has been a bonanza for the Kosovo Albanians, who control 40% of Europe's heroin trade -- their profits are thought to have helped fund last year's war. If they were to return home, there would be little the cash-starved and understaffed UN mission could do to control the movement of drugs and guns.

another text (2007)
Statistics speak for themselves: 19,500 Kosovo Albanians are clogging German jails for selling drugs; 2,500 Kosovo Albanians are in Swiss jail for selling drugs; Hungarian anti-mafia chief Djerd Hološi says Albanians control 80% of Hungarian drugs; Czech's attribute 70% of drug distribution to Kosovo Albanians...

Another one (this one doesn't show the date)"
This is a development that has strengthened the Albanian mafia which is now thought to control 70% of the illegal heroin market in Germany and Switzerland.

And yet another one(2000)
The tentacles of the Albanian mafia stretch across Europe. According to Interpol, Albanian-speaking drug dealers accounted for 14% of those arrested for heroin smuggling in 1997. While the average trafficker was apprehended with two grams of heroin, the Albanians had an average of 120 grams in their possession. Scandinavian countries claim that Albanians control 80% of the heroin market there. Switzerland says 90% of the drug trafficking in that country is connected to Albanians. German law enforcement agencies claim that Albanians form the largest group involved in heroin trafficking.
German Federal Police now say that Kosovo Albanians import 80 percent of Europe’s heroin. So dominant is the Kosovo Albanian presence in trafficking that many European users refer to illicit drugs in general as “Albanka”, or Albanian lady.


Wrong again? Can it be that German police, DEA, Czech police, Hungarian police, Scandinavian police etc... are all wrong and only you are right?

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Nice demonstrations in Belgrade BTW , I did like that crowd with the funny gesture , you know the sort of strange lifting of a straight right arm with the hand extended , are they copying Donald Duck in that old cartoon ?

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I didn't see the demonstrations in Belgrade, what happened? And anyway, considering how Serbs are touchy when it comes to Kosovo, I'd be very happy if it all ends with a several demonstrations.

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And BTW did you forget about the Romans , the byzantines ,the Bulgarians and that place called yugoslavia ....or would you like me to add some more ?

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Pretty much everything that we associate with Kosovo today dates back to the early middle ages and medieval serbian state. Economic development started back than, rise of the population, cultural development, the ares got its name... everything. Kosovo may have been ruled by neanderthals or aliens at one point but that is pointless for our discussion here.

I want to congratulate the people of Kosovo for formally taking their own independence. I hope that it works out for them, though I have an aweful feeling that it won't.

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Wrong again?

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Yes , look at the dates of all but one of your articles .
What was the year that the EU began put the money and effort into Greece to effect the Western Balkans route ?
Was it before or after all but one of those articles ?

But at least you are being clearer now . It isn't the drug trade as such it is the herion trade specificly .
As I said earlier , that has shifted North both as a result of the EU efforts , very major changes in the production countries , and of course the accession of new states to the EU .

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Pretty much everything that we associate with Kosovo today dates back to the early middle ages and medieval serbian state. Economic development started back than, rise of the population, cultural development, the ares got its name... everything. Kosovo may have been ruled by neanderthals or aliens at one point but that is pointless for our discussion here.

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But it isn't pointless , it demonstrates that the region known as Kosovo has not always been a province of Serbia , neither has it had constant borders , it has changed "ownership" and it has had shitfing majorities for many hundreds of years .

Here try this for size .
I live in a country that never existed until it existed , it never had the name it has until it had the name it has , it certainly didn't have the borders it has because ...well because it didn't exist .
Should it exist as an independant country ?
There were a lot of people who said it shouldn't , a lot of people who claimed historic precedence as to why it shouldn't , even a lot of people who make the same sort of claims about its inhabitants as are being made about Kosovos inhabitants .

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I didn't see the demonstrations in Belgrade, what happened? And anyway, considering how Serbs are touchy when it comes to Kosovo, I'd be very happy if it all ends with a several demonstrations.

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I too hope that it amounts to no more than demonstrations , but I ain't very optimistic about it .
What I was saying about the demos was just a little dig . It was a big crowd but there was a smaller part of the crowd who really wanted to make sure they got in camera as much as possible , the distictive flags they carried and the salutes they gave showed that small portion of the crowd to be complete arseholes . I would post a link to their website , but those links tend to get me warning points here .

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Yes , look at the dates of all but one of your articles .
What was the year that the EU began put the money and effort into Greece to effect the Western Balkans route ?
Was it before or after all but one of those articles ?

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Well, you're right in a sense. But Greece is only one link. Keep in mind that Albania also has a costline and that a port of Durres is getting more and more activity.

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But at least you are being clearer now . It isn't the drug trade as such it is the herion trade specificly .
As I said earlier , that has shifted North both as a result of the EU efforts , very major changes in the production countries , and of course the accession of new states to the EU .

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Heroin among other things. There is a lot of marijuana too, and I guess cocaine too, since Albanian cartels are cooperating more and more with Columbian. But I really don't know what's the ratio of heroine/cocaine/marijuana in the overall drug trade of Kosovo. But heroine is probably the biggest part, since the route Afghanistan - Turkey - Kosovo - western Europe is the most active

The problem is that it is much easier to get in and out of Kosovo after 1999. KFOR and UNMIK aren't really interested to deal with the drug trafficking. Even if they were, they don't have the resources or the main power. Chief Kosovo politicians are mostly a part of the drug bussines, since they are mostly ex KLA leaders who were either financed by drug trade, or were involved directly.

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But it isn't pointless , it demonstrates that the region known as Kosovo has not always been a province of Serbia , neither has it had constant borders , it has changed "ownership" and it has had shitfing majorities for many hundreds of years .

Here try this for size .
I live in a country that never existed until it existed , it never had the name it has until it had the name it has , it certainly didn't have the borders it has because ...well because it didn't exist .
Should it exist as an independant country ?
There were a lot of people who said it shouldn't , a lot of people who claimed historic precedence as to why it shouldn't , even a lot of people who make the same sort of claims about its inhabitants as are being made about Kosovos inhabitants .

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This requires a very complex answer and unfortunately, I haven't got the time right now. I will get back to you on this issue.

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I too hope that it amounts to no more than demonstrations , but I ain't very optimistic about it .
What I was saying about the demos was just a little dig . It was a big crowd but there was a smaller part of the crowd who really wanted to make sure they got in camera as much as possible , the distictive flags they carried and the salutes they gave showed that small portion of the crowd to be complete arseholes . I would post a link to their website , but those links tend to get me warning points here .

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It won't go further than demonstrations, I'm 100% sure. But there will be other, political responses. I'm certain that Serbia won't recognize Kosovo as an independent state, and will treat it as a part of its territory which currently under occupation. Kosovo will never be able to integrate into the region without the support of Serbia. And I'm afraid that it's not going to get it, probably ever... So we are looking at a very long time of EU and US nursing

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But heroine is probably the biggest part, since the route Afghanistan - Turkey - Kosovo - western Europe is the most active

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There you go again , this all came up a while ago when Krook said Poland was going to get flooded with drugs from Holland , the herion trade is shifting north .
That was why I pointed out the dates on your links .
You are right about the marajuana though , UNMIK has made a lot of siezures of home grown Kosovan weed , which brings us to ....

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KFOR and UNMIK aren't really interested to deal with the drug trafficking.

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Drug trafficing is one of UNMIKs missions isn't it , together with other smuggling , moneylaundering , tax evasion , illegal weapons ...which all are part of the business package of your average drug baron .