Kosovo declares independence from Serbia

Thought this deserved a new thread. Let's try to keep the bickering to a minimal, yes?

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PRISTINA, Kosovo (CNN) -- Kosovo has formally declared its independence from Serbia and become the world's newest state in a move opposed by Serbia and Russia but backed by many western governments.

Lawmakers in the legislature of the former Serbian province approved the declaration of independence at an extraordinary session Sunday afternoon. It was read out in Albanian, Serbian and English by prime minister Hashim Thaci before the approval of state symbols including Kosovar's new national flag and anthem.

Thaci said that Kosovo was an "independent and democratic" state, adding: "From this day onwards, Kosovo is proud, independent and free."

CNN's Alessio Vinci, reporting from the Kosovar capital Pristina, said that thousands of Kosovo's Albanian population had braved the freezing wind and cold to sing, dance, wave flags in the streets and light firecrackers ahead of the much anticipated vote. Some revellers were even said to be firing gunshot into the air. "It's been like this for several hours now," he said.

"It's a day they have been waiting for for such a long time that many of them are trying to figure out just how they got to this day."

President George Bush said Sunday that Kosovo's status must be resolved before the Balkans can become stable and that the United States supports the Ahtisaari plan which calls for a form of supervised independence.

The European Union decided Saturday to launch a mission of about 2,000 police and judicial officers to replace the United Nations mission that has been controlling the province since the end of the war with Serbia in 1999.

Kosovo has been under U.N. supervision and patrolled by a NATO-led peacekeeping force since the end of the three-month war, in which NATO warplanes pounded Serbia to roll back a campaign of "ethnic cleansing" of the province's Albanian population under former then-President Slobodan Milosevic.

The disputed province is dear to the Serbs, Orthodox Christians who regard it as Serbian territory. But it is equally coveted by Kosovo's ethnic Albanians, Muslims who have a 90 percent majority, and two years of talks on its final status ended in failure last December.

"Its status must be resolved in order for the Balkans to be stable," President Bush told reporters during a news conference in Tanzania Sunday.

Bush said the Ahtisaari plan -- named after former Finnish President Marti Ahtisaari -- is the best option. The proposal would give Kosovo limited statehood under international supervision.

President Bush added that "it's in Serbia's interest to be aligned with Europe and the Serbian people can know that they have a friend in America." VideoWatch the changing political climate in the Balkans »

"We are heartened by the fact that the Kosovo government has clearly proclaimed its willingness and its desire to support Serbian rights in Kosovo," Bush said.

Thaci said Thursday he would establish a new government office for minorities and it would protect the rights of minorities after the province declares independence.

Serbian Foreign Minister Vuk Jeremic has promised his country will refrain from using force against Kosovo after independence, though he has warned that Serbia will take punitive diplomatic, political, and economic measures against the province.

Russia -- Serbia's historic ally -- has remained opposed to Kosovo's independence. Russia, which has fought two wars against separatist rebels in its southwestern republic of Chechnya, has said that U.S. and European support for Kosovo's independence could lead to an "uncontrollable crisis" in the Balkans.

The EU said Saturday that "around 1,900 international police officers, judges, prosecutors and customs officials and approximately 1,100 local staff will be based in headquarters in Pristina or located throughout the judicial and police system in Kosovo."

The EU mission's objective is "to support the Kosovo authorities by monitoring, mentoring and advising on all areas related to the rule of law, in particular in the police, judiciary, customs and correctional services," it said.

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Thoughts? This seems to have a very much pro west backing, while Russia is against it.

Gives people yet another chance for international posturing by proxy. Let's hope it stays at that.

It'll all be for nothing when Mr. Blair becomes president of Europe and bans nation states though...

Great. Another excuse for Russia to play the victim of Western imperialism. Let's have another world war over this [area] of land, shall we?

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

Great. Another excuse for Russia to play the victim of Western imperialism. Let's have another world war over this [area] of land, shall we?

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Don't like it - stay out of it. It's not insignificant to everyone...



I'm curious which country will the first to recognize Kosovo...

I'll put $50 on the Holy See.

I wonder what the mostly Serbian regions in the north of Kosovo will do. Will they demand to be allowed to return to the bosom of Mother Serbia?

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I condone this.

Not because I'm buying any arguments of Serbian nationalism but for I can't stand any more ethnic partitioning in these lands. :no:

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this [area] of land

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This was uncalled for Vlad. Nobody's home deserves being called that. Even Falklands.

agreed. Changed. -Kukri
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Bleh. I'm with Bismark on the subject of the Balkans. So it will be very easy for me to avoid bickering on this one. I couldn't have cared less when they were part of Serbia and I couldn't care less now they are not. They'd have to declare political union with Mozambique to pique my interest.

I touched this briefly with a good friend of mine from Serbia. She said that her social network felt the loss, even if they are all for Europe and against serbian nationalism. It kinda mirrors my personal views about the topic. Being part of an ethnic minority I know that the majority, even with most dubious claims has a hard time to "let go". We seem to be all little children in this way.

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Originally Posted by Marshal Murat

I'll put $50 on the Holy See.

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Not so sure... I'm thinking Iceland or some other small country like that...

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Originally Posted by English assassin

Bleh. I'm with Bismark on the subject of the Balkans. So it will be very easy for me to avoid bickering on this one. I couldn't have cared less when they were part of Serbia and I couldn't care less now they are not. They'd have to declare political union with Mozambique to pique my interest.

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“If there is ever another war in Europe, it will come out of some damned silly thing in the Balkans"

Spoken by a German... The biggest irony of all.:laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Spoken by a German... The biggest irony of all.:laugh4:

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EDIT: I see what you meant. Thanks. :)

Well, good for them, I guess...

as long as people don´t start shooting each other again...whatever

Congratulations to the people of Kosovo! May this work out for them better than it previously has for many nations.

Now to go talk to my Serbian friend...

apparently albania was the first state to recognize the sovereignty of the kosovar republic.

btw, the serbian PM said he blamed the US for being "ready to violate the international order for its own military interests". could someone explain what he means by that? what military interests are furthered by kosovar independence?

Since I assume this the majority of Kosovos populations will: huzzah.

Apart from that, `tis silly.

The violence begins...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...18/2164981.htm

https://img523.imageshack.us/img523/...ofridomrm7.jpg

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Originally Posted by Big_John

apparently albania was the first state to recognize the sovereignty of the kosovar republic.

btw, the serbian PM said he blamed the US for being "ready to violate the international order for its own military interests". could someone explain what he means by that? what military interests are furthered by kosovar independence?

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Well I guess he means on the biggest American military base in Europe that is located in Kosovo...

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Originally Posted by CountArach

The violence begins...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...18/2164981.htm

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Pah, this is just the scenario of Wag the Dog coming true.

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Well I guess he means on the biggest American military base in Europe that is located in Kosovo...

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Well apart from the fact that it isn't .
Do you instead mean the biggest American base that has been built from scratch in Europe in the past few decades ?


But anyway heres a thought for people to ponder , hypothetical of course .
If a group like Altzan got a situation where there was foriegn intervention and the Latino popuation was a majority in favour of independance , should the Southwestern States be allowed to declare independance from the United States ?

When you say 'majority in favor of independence', do you mean a majority of the population was Latino, or the majority of the Latino population?
It's apples and oranges, and I'll explain...

In the United States, we have a strong federal government, and we would like to hold onto all our states. I think if Hawaii wanted to split, we wouldn't have that big a problem, but Southwest? No. Definitely not.

In Yugoslavia, it was a mishmash of cultures and identities. Serbs, Bulgarians, Slavs, Albanians, Macedonians, Bosnians, the list goes on. When Yugoslavia split up, we get a bunch of smaller nations that have their own agenda and identity.

The difference?
Yugoslavia split up, the United States didn't, and those in former Yugoslavia have independent traditions and languages. While the United States may have different ethnic groups and languages, Americans identify each other first as 'Americans', then as 'Irish-American', or 'Italian'.

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Well I guess he means on the biggest American military base in Europe that is located in Kosovo...

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ok, but even if this is so, how does an independent kosovo further US military interests? was serbia going to close the base or something?

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

But anyway heres a thought for people to ponder , hypothetical of course . If a group like Altzan got a situation where there was foriegn intervention and the Latino popuation was a majority in favour of independance , should the Southwestern States be allowed to declare independance from the United States ?

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Along a similar vein: What separates the Kosovars from a white separatist militia in Montana? Time? Force of arms?

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Originally Posted by Marshal Murat

The difference?
Yugoslavia split up, the United States didn't, and those in former Yugoslavia have independent traditions and languages. While the United States may have different ethnic groups and languages, Americans identify each other first as 'Americans', then as 'Irish-American', or 'Italian'.

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For the US there is a precedence (Civil War) if the South had of won then there would have been a precedence for it to continue to splinter.

The fact that the North won sets a precedence that in the US you cannot quietly leave. I think though if the US broke up into its member states (much like USSR and the satellite states within the iron curtain) then those states would probably fracture again.

On the whole around the world we generally see a trend of nations getting larger. They might fracture and then reform, but actual nations with the same Prime Minister / President have a tendency to form either greater nations or blocs or trading communities. Now when most nations gain independence they do tend to fracture (India and Pakistan) but given time and economic prosperity (the gravity in nation building) states tend to grow together.

I think the best thing for K and S are to go forth, become more democratic, play nicely and in about 15 to 25 years as they both gain in economic prosperity they will probably reunite in some sort of trading bloc.

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

Along a similar vein: What separates the Kosovars from a white separatist militia in Montana? Time? Force of arms?

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A majority who are forced to live under a Government that does not represent them. The people of Montana have this. The Kosovars don't.

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

Another excuse for Russia to play the victim of Western imperialism.

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hmmm... for Russia?
well, if Russia would like to play a victim of Western imperialism, exactly this issue would hardly be an excuse for it

Russia seems to always (sometimes correctly) feel paranoid about Western powers (France, Britain). Russia also has a strong tradition of Slavic protectionism, probably stemming from it's mixed Byzantine heritage. Those factors make Serbia and it's Slavic inhabitants something of a Russian friend. Playing on the supposed 'Western Imperialism', Russia is the 'defender of Slavic heritage'. If anything, it's an attempt to look really powerful and benevolent.

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Originally Posted by Marshal Murat

Russia seems to always (sometimes correctly) feel paranoid about Western powers (France, Britain). Russia also has a strong tradition of Slavic protectionism, probably stemming from it's mixed Byzantine heritage. Those factors make Serbia and it's Slavic inhabitants something of a Russian friend. Playing on the supposed 'Western Imperialism', Russia is the 'defender of Slavic heritage'. If anything, it's an attempt to look really powerful and benevolent.

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Considering we're smacking a missile defense shield right next to their border, I don't see why they shouldn't be paranoid that we see them as an enemy still.

It's mutual fear, and the Russians want to ensure that they aren't seen as weak. They're sticking up for their Slavic friends because they want to poke the Western world in the eye. It's posturing by the Russians, so that we don't forget about the Ursidae.

I feel that Russia, unless it's willing to send arms or some-such to Serbia to prevent this split, is going to decry this in the Security Council, in the newspapers, on the web, on TV, but in the end, they will try to settle it as favorably for them and for Serbia as possible.

I don't think Russia will try too much violence, unless they feel sufficiently provoked, which, I hope, will not occur.

(Besides, Poland isn't technically putting missile defense systems right on the border with Russia, since I doubt Kaliningrad has any nuclear silos)

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Originally Posted by Marshal Murat

(Besides, Poland isn't technically putting missile defense systems right on the border with Russia, since I doubt Kaliningrad has any nuclear silos)

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Originally Posted by Wiki

In July 2007, Russian First Deputy Prime Minister Sergei Ivanov declared that if US-controlled missile defense systems were deployed in Poland that nuclear weapons may be deployed in Kaliningrad.

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It looks like Kaliningrad will only have nuclear silos if the missile shield is built. Oh, the irony...

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The way to win an atomic war is to make certain it never starts. ~Omar Bradley

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I wonder when they'll re-forge the Iron Curtain, Act II may soon end.

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Originally Posted by Big_John

ok, but even if this is so, how does an independent kosovo further US military interests? was serbia going to close the base or something?

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Base was built (and is still being built, AFAIK) after 1999, after the US led Nato agression on then FR Yugoslavia. I guess Serbian PM wanted to stress that he thought that it this was all planned even back then and all those events which culminated in Kosovo unilateral declaration of independence was because US wanted to further it's military and political interests in Europe and Balkans (with which I agree, mostly...)

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Base was built (and is still being built, AFAIK) after 1999, after the US led Nato agression on then FR Yugoslavia. I guess Serbian PM wanted to stress that he thought that it this was all planned even back then and all those events which culminated in Kosovo unilateral declaration of independence was because US wanted to further it's military and political interests in Europe and Balkans (with which I agree, mostly...)

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Paranoia.

A nice trait to have in someone who may start another genocide. Makes me feel safe...

Really, now? Well I guess people of the world feel very safe with American Dady watching over us, saving us from WMD in Iraq and saving Iraqi the trouble to drill for the oil themselves, And Serbs or Serbia didn't commit genocide at any point in the entire history. We were victims of one, if that's what you were trying to say...

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"Camp Bondsteel, the biggest “from scratch” foreign US military base since the Vietnam War is near completion in the Yugoslav province of Kosovo. It is located close to vital oil pipelines and energy corridors presently under construction, such as the US sponsored Trans-Balkan oil pipeline. As a result defence contractors—in particular Halliburton Oil subsidiary Brown & Root Services—are making a fortune.

In June 1999, in the immediate aftermath of the bombing of Yugoslavia, US forces seized 1,000 acres of farmland in southeast Kosovo at Uresevic, near the Macedonian border, and began the construction of a camp.

Camp Bondsteel is known as the “grand dame” in a network of US bases running both sides of the border between Kosovo and Macedonia. In less than three years it has been transformed from an encampment of tents to a self sufficient, high tech base-camp housing nearly 7,000 troops—three quarters of all the US troops stationed in Kosovo.

There are 25 kilometres of roads and over 300 buildings at Camp Bondsteel, surrounded by 14 kilometres of earth and concrete barriers, 84 kilometres of concertina wire and 11 watch towers. It is so big that it has downtown, midtown and uptown districts, retail outlets, 24-hour sports halls, a chapel, library and the best-equipped hospital anywhere in Europe. At present there are 55 Black Hawk and Apache helicopters based at Bondsteel and although it has no aircraft landing strip the location was chosen for its capacity to expand. There are suggestions that it could replace the US airforce base at Aviano in Italy.

According to Colonel Robert L. McClure, writing in the engineers professional Bulletin, “Engineer planning for operations in Kosovo began months before the first bomb was dropped. At the outset, planners wanted to use the lessons learned in Bosnia and convinced decision makers to reach base-camp ‘end state’ as quickly as possible.”

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entire text

PS Tribesy, you were right, it's the biggest built from scratch.

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

We were victims of one, if that's what you were trying to say...

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You're right, no albanian civilian was ever gunned down by the serb forces. :dizzy2:

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

You're right, no albanian civilian was ever gunned down by the serb forces. :dizzy2:

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FYI, there is a difference between "gunning down" and genocide...

Please, there's more than enough blame to go around

And there is more to discuss than this, so I'd appreciate it if we don't start what shouldn't be started.

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

FYI, there is a difference between "gunning down" and genocide...

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I have my own definition for words. When dead civilians, who got killed solely because of their ethnicity, are shipped off to mass graves in trucks, I call it genocide.

Or do you perhaps have another term for what the serbs have done to the albanians?

EDIT: btw, neither Serbia nor Serbs has ever committed genocide? Then WHAT THE HELL do you call Srebrenica?

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Srebrenica

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Finally. Glad not everybdy here is braindead. :sweatdrop:
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Nor does everyone want to draw this down into a shouting match about genocide. Could we please get off this topic?

cuz genocides are nasty things that should be ignored.

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Originally Posted by Viking

cuz genocides are nasty things that should be ignored.

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cuz genocides are not directly relevant to the topic of this thread.

Kosovar Independence. Some are "for", some "against", some "no opinion". Return to topic, please.

There is currently a whole lot of mess going on about this, look what we have here, a europe devided because of something as small as Albania, few who recognise it and some that don't and a lot that shut up, exactly the horror-scenario that could lead to another european war, still want that unified european army? We have to back one of them no?

According to the New York Times: the US, UK & France have recognized Kosovo, with Germany coming soon.

Meanwhile, Reuters reports that Spain will not (recognize).

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Turkey jumped the bandwagon early. Pretending to be cautious by delaying it officially. Yet mass media (both the howling dogs of the military caste & bureaucratic elite and the call-girls of the government) are already cheering up.


edit to add LINK to the Turkey story. -Kukri

:bow: ― M.
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Originally Posted by KukriKhan

cuz genocides are not directly relevant to the topic of this thread.

Kosovar Independence. Some are "for", some "against", some "no opinion". Return to topic, please.

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"Going off topic" is a highly relative term; I fail to see how this was more off topic than what's average here in the backroom.

https://img134.imageshack.us/img134/...0957928za3.jpg


Flagburning; nice fellows.


Edit: should've been in the previous post :whip:

That flag represents what's wrong with this chapter in the wider tale of Balkan history. Not that it's being burned, or that it's Albanian. But did anyone spot a single Kosovar flag during the independance marches? I frankly can't blame Serbs in Kosovo or Serbia for being uncomfortable with this. It just looks like power in Kosovo is being taken from Serbs and put into the hands of Albanians. I was under the impression that the purpose behind creating a sovereign Kosovo was to ease tensions. It isn't working so far.

Kosovo could set a dangerous precident for future ethnic minorities within a nation. Why do you think Canada and Spain are reluctant to sign? Because of Quebec and the Basque State respectively.

Pathetic, the failure of the Balkan states is Kosovo.
If The West truly recognises this then it's opened up a whole new can of worms, for what?
The West has consistently and idoitically picked out the Serbs in this conflict turning them into scapegoats for everything in the Balkans.
I don't know too much about this conflict however I know that there is always shooting from both sides, yet from watching BBC world and CNN I don't get that, I get "It's the Evil Serbs." Truly.

What the West and it's media have done is created a massivley resentful nation, more inclined to listen to Russia and Idiots.

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Originally Posted by Bopa the Magyar

Russia and Idiots.

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Ouch.

That's probably the greatest tragedy, the lack of understanding. I don't really honestly understand the entire issue, but I've got a rudimentary understanding of it. Everyone else sees 'Kosovo declaring independence', and they immediately associate them with the American revolution, and it's easy to portray the Serbians as the 'British' (no offense to my friends across the pond). So you get a bunch of Americans riled up, then we throw in Russians, trying to bring order, and you get the great 'Commie Threat' of Russia, and now we're afraid the Ruskies are going to jump in and interject some Stalinism and Marxism.

Overall, it's a disaster that I wish to blame on the ________.

(P.S., Stephen Fry is an amazing actor)

Well, I hope some people see that the Great Satan is backing the Muslims, at least.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

I have my own definition for words.

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That's great, you should write a dictionary...

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

When dead civilians, who got killed solely because of their ethnicity, are shipped off to mass graves in trucks, I call it genocide.

Or do you perhaps have another term for what the serbs have done to the albanians?

EDIT: btw, neither Serbia nor Serbs has ever committed genocide? Then WHAT THE HELL do you call Srebrenica?

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Mass graves are unfortunately common in an area where there is a bigger armed conflict cause there isn't always time, manpower, resources to bury them properly. The point here is not whether mass graves exist, but how did people in them die, and were they soldiers or civilians. And FYI the biggest mass grave in Kosovo is the grave of non-Albanians...

Srebrenica have alredy been discussed here. I don't suppose you're gonna believe the words of a serb nationalist like me, but at least take into account the words of Brennus, who is French, and who has actually been there.
I don't have anything to add to what I have already said in that thread, and you can see WHAT THE HELL I call Srebrenica there...

Another word what serbs have done to albanians is fighting terrorism. Unfortunately, I can't say Serbian police was much interested to prove without reasonable doubt that a particular albanian was a terrorist. But on the other hand a good portion of killed Albanian civilians were killed by KLA because they refused to assist either by actually joining the KLA, or by providing safe houses, money etc... Also, keep in mind that serbian police wasn't fighting an army. It was figting terrorist group. That means that there were no uniforms (actually there were but they weren't common), no documents, no strict chain of command, no standardized equipment and weaponry, no ID numbers etc... Most of the time KLA fighters were guys in civilian clothing given some training and a gun. When a person like that is killed, take away his gun and he becomes a "civilian casualty"...

Sorry for the offtopic. Call me paranoid, crazy, old-fashioned, but I have issues when someone use genocide and Serbia in the same sentence and I'm going to respond every time to that and similar claims, expecially when they come from a person who was 2000km away, and whose only knowledge comes from short versions of BBC/CNN reports...

On topic:
No real suprise on those who recognized it... What I am glad, though, is that most Balkan countries (Bulgaria, Serbia, Romania, Greece, Bosnia) said that they aren't going to recognize Kosovo. Croatia, Albania and Macedonia almost certainly will, Montenegro still undecided...

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Originally Posted by Justiciar

That flag represents what's wrong with this chapter in the wider tale of Balkan history. Not that it's being burned, or that it's Albanian. But did anyone spot a single Kosovar flag during the independance marches? I frankly can't blame Serbs in Kosovo or Serbia for being uncomfortable with this. It just looks like power in Kosovo is being taken from Serbs and put into the hands of Albanians. I was under the impression that the purpose behind creating a sovereign Kosovo was to ease tensions. It isn't working so far.

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Until 17th February this year there was no official Flag of Kosovo, so they used the Albanian one instead.

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Originally Posted by Marshal Murat

I'll put $50 on the Holy See.

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It was Afghanistan. 2nd was USA.

Why Vatican would did it first? Kosovo is not populated by Roman Catholics. :inquisitive:

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Originally Posted by Marshal Murat

It's mutual fear, and the Russians want to ensure that they aren't seen as weak. They're sticking up for their Slavic friends because they want to poke the Western world in the eye. It's posturing by the Russians, so that we don't forget about the Ursidae.

I feel that Russia, unless it's willing to send arms or some-such to Serbia to prevent this split, is going to decry this in the Security Council, in the newspapers, on the web, on TV, but in the end, they will try to settle it as favorably for them and for Serbia as possible.

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Russia will blockade UDI of Kosovo in UN and every other organisation they can. Just like USA veto every negative resolution about Israel, now the situation will be opposite. Fair enough. :yes:
I wonder why is Spain against Kosovo UDI?

And why should Russia send weapons to Serbia? Both Russia and Serbia are for diplomatic and peaceful solution.

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Originally Posted by Big King Sanctaphrax

I wonder what the mostly Serbian regions in the north of Kosovo will do. Will they demand to be allowed to return to the bosom of Mother Serbia?

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Do you know that Albanians don't control some 30% of territory?

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Originally Posted by CountArach

A majority who are forced to live under a Government that does not represent them. The people of Montana have this. The Kosovars don't.

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And who are Kosovars? :dizzy2:

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Originally Posted by Viking

Until 17th February this year there was no official Flag of Kosovo, so they used the Albanian one instead.

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This flag Albanians will never accept except formally. Flag has the same colors as Bosnian and is similar to it.

Serbia started to call back ambassadors from countries which recognized Kosovo UDI.

Kosovo has everything to become new Palestine:
1. Unemployment over 50%.
2. 50% of population is young below 16 years.
3. There is no economy as 90% of goods are imported, mainly from Serbia.
4. Every young Albanian dream to fly on West and escape from misery.
5. Kosovo has huge lack of energy. Albanians can’t even produce enough power so they live under regular power restrictions. UNMIK has debt of 4 million Euros to pay for power Serbia sold in 2007.

How EU and USA think to raise the economy of USA? Will they donate billions of Euros and $ every year?

Symbolically Afghanistan 1st recognized Kosovo UDI as the 90% of opium/heroin production is there and Kosovo is major shipment route for distribution of heroin into Europe. It is nice [like would Borat said].

P.S.
In reality, Kosovo is partitioned.

I figured the Holy See because they seemed like the kinda nation to recognize almost any nation. Darn.

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Both Russia and Serbia are for diplomatic and peaceful solution.

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Unfortunately, no-one in America knows that, we just assume Russia is ready to send weapons like everyone else assumes that we send weapons to anyone we support.

You are wrong informed. Serbia said NO to military intervention because Serbia won't break Resolution 1244. And Russia stated the same to us and world several times. Also, Serbia won't blockade economically Kosovo. Yes, we can do that and Kosovo would immediately collapse as they mainly import goods from Serbia. If we cut power to Kosovo Albanians would live in dark as Albania and FYROM [neighbors of Kosovo] lack power, too so they can’t export them. But our Government stated several times it won’t happen.

Serbia has enough weapons for solving local problems like Kosovo. Do you know that Serbia export weapons [mainly infantry weapons]?

alreadly address by others

I do not support the independence of Kosovo, neither does the Romanian parliament. By supporting the Kosovar independence, we make the highway for the other rebellious regions in other parts of the world. Abkhazia and South Osetia started preparing for the proclaiming of their independence. Now, Transnistria (half of Moldavia, near Romania) wants independence too.

So, shame on the European countries, this should NEVER be done!

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Originally Posted by edyzmedieval

I do not support the independence of Kosovo, neither does the Romanian parliament. By supporting the Kosovar independence, we make the highway for the other rebellious regions in other parts of the world. Abkhazia and South Osetia started preparing for the proclaiming of their independence. Now, Transnistria (half of Moldavia, near Romania) wants independence too.

So, shame on the European countries, this should NEVER be done!

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And people of Serbia are grateful for that.
Two Balkan states which never had war against each other. :2thumbsup:

I saw that Romanian government ordered retreat of administration or something like that from Prishtina. :2thumbsup:

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Now, Transnistria (half of Moldavia, near Romania) wants independence too.

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Transnistria declared its independence , it had its war of independence , and though Russia has opened a consulate for the "country" no one recognises its legal existence as an independant state .
So perhaps you should drop the "now" from that statement , since its old news .

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Originally Posted by edyzmedieval

So, shame on the European countries, this should NEVER be done!

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Why does Kosovo belong to the Serbs rather than the Kosovars? :inquisitive:

Is this area the only region which begat its own adjective?

I'm declaring all my properties independent from the United States government. I will fight a war of independence, sign and declare a constitution, and hold open elections every four years. Although the race always comes down to two people, my wife, and myself... and she usually wins with the majority of votes (The Nationalist Socialist Party of Ms. Waki and Allison always seems to beat the Totalitarian Party of Mr. Waki and Liv). Unfortunately we'll have to import all Commodities and Power, and Export absolutely nothing. I guess if we built weapons plants we could be like the US's (other) version of Israel.

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Transnistria declared its independence , it had its war of independence , and though Russia has opened a consulate for the "country" no one recognises its legal existence as an independant state .
So perhaps you should drop the "now" from that statement , since its old news .

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It's not old. They declared their independence, but right now, they want it recognised officially, so they are sending letters to every state so they can have their independence recognised. Romania and Moldavia will never recognise the independence, same goes for Kosovo.

It belongs to the Serbian people because it was Serbian since the Serbian Kingdom was founded. Why should people of Albanian ethnicity want independence when they belong to a country? Why don't they go with Albania instead?!

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Originally Posted by Wakizashi

I'm declaring all my properties independent from the United States government. I will fight a war of independence, sign and declare a constitution, and hold open elections every four years. Although the race always comes down to two people, my wife, and myself... and she usually wins with the majority of votes (The Nationalist Socialist Party of Ms. Waki and Allison always seems to beat the Totalitarian Party of Mr. Waki and Liv). Unfortunately we'll have to import all Commodities and Power, and Export absolutely nothing. I guess if we built weapons plants we could be like the US's (other) version of Israel.

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Originally Posted by CountArach

A majority who are forced to live under a Government that does not represent them. The people of Montana have this. The Kosovars don't.

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My government doesn't represent me either. I will be succeeding from the United States.
My country (me) is a net exporter of PAIN :angry:

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Originally Posted by edyzmedieval

It belongs to the Serbian people because it was Serbian since the Serbian Kingdom was founded. Why should people of Albanian ethnicity want independence when they belong to a country? Why don't they go with Albania instead?!

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Agreed.

If they really want independence they should fight for it with both their military and non-military might. Serbia should do the same if they want to stop them. That's how you get a country of your own.

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Originally Posted by edyzmedieval

It belongs to the Serbian people because it was Serbian since the Serbian Kingdom was founded.

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...and?

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Why don't they go with Albania instead?!

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They don't need to, they already have their land. Now they declared full ownership of this land too.

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Originally Posted by Wakizashi

I'm declaring all my properties independent from the United States government. I will fight a war of independence, sign and declare a constitution, and hold open elections every four years. Although the race always comes down to two people, my wife, and myself... and she usually wins with the majority of votes (The Nationalist Socialist Party of Ms. Waki and Allison always seems to beat the Totalitarian Party of Mr. Waki and Liv). Unfortunately we'll have to import all Commodities and Power, and Export absolutely nothing. I guess if we built weapons plants we could be like the US's (other) version of Israel.

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~:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by edyzmedieval

It belongs to the Serbian people because it was Serbian since the Serbian Kingdom was founded. Why should people of Albanian ethnicity want independence when they belong to a country? Why don't they go with Albania instead?!

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So New Mexico belongs to Mexico because it was part of Mexico when it was founded?
Besides, those people aren't Albanians, they were Yugoslavians, and Serbians till yesterday, only of Albanian origin. It's like saying that the Turkish immigrants here in Belgium are Turks.

Is Germany recognising Kosovo? I want to see the Holy Roman Empire formed again! Micro states for everyone!

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Originally Posted by CountArach

Is Germany recognising Kosovo?

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According to the New York Times: the US, UK & France have recognized Kosovo, with Germany coming soon.

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Supposedly.

To share something normally requires that the owner feels like doing so. The owner has to have had a period of time of exclusive ownership and then they feel like sharing. Quite often when a couple start going out they focus on each other to the exclusion of all other friends and family and only after a period of time do they start interacting with each other.

Let those in Kosovo take ownership, pride, authourity and most importantly responsibility for their destiny. Then once they feel that they are a nation and relationships with other states remain normal you might find that Kosovo either rejoins in a bilateral agreement or becomes a close neighbour much like Singapore and Malaysia or New Zealand and Australia.

Having independent states doesn't mean so much when the economies are not independent.

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Originally Posted by Conradus

It's like saying that the Turkish immigrants here in Belgium are Turks.

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The Turkish government seems to think they are :shrug:

....

I don't think that the Kosovars would need to fight a war against Serbia to "earn" their right of self-determination but I think that long term viability as a nation should be a prerequisite. This new state is a joke, it's going to be dependent on foreign aid for decades to come. I didn't think that the breakaway of Montenegro was a good idea either, but they at least weren't an entirely landlocked country with no industry to speak of.

How is Montenegro doing, anyway?

What's good for the goose is good for the gander, right? Shouldn't Serbian sections of Kosovo be allowed to secceed and return to Serbia, or become their own micro-state, should they so desire?

There's a problem with the absolute right of self-determination. Nobody, even its most ardent defenders, really truly believe in it. Nor should they. At the end of the day, too much self-determination leads to anarchy.

From a strictly legalist and objectivist point of view, based on what I believe the function of government and sovereignty to be... Kosovo is wrong in this, but then, so too were we back in 1776, applying the same standards.

As I understand from the BBC, the EU plans on turning Kosovo around, democratically, anyway.