How do I "force" my ranged units to charge if they still have ammo?
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How do I "force" my ranged units to charge if they still have ammo?
Press and hold the ALT key while clicking on the enemy unit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravencroft
Hold down alt and attack.
ok thnx for the info
Question about Mounted Missile units (or hybrid attacker/arcker units): If you get a decent hybrid unit (Steppe Heavy Cavalry, Faris, Longbows, Bonnachts or one of the other Archer/Attacher units) around behind or onto a flank of an enemy unit, do you use their ranged attack or charge into melee?
I almost always change to the Melee attack, especially with units that have a good charge. I find that the effect of charging a unit into the flank, or even better rear, yield metter results that having them sit their firing arrows. Possible exception is javelin units, because they can do prety sickening damage with these missiles quickly anyway.
How about you guys? Shoot or slash?
Shoot then slash. Get a couple volleys off, kill a couple guys, then charge in. Loosing soldiers to arrow fire helps put a bit of a dent into enemy soldier's morale, thus helping to make them route faster. And, of course, once they route, its game over for them, especially if you're using Steppe heavies.
Ditto. Your hybrid unit can benefit from the morale-dampening effects of its own missile fire if you lob some arrows into the enemy unit and then charge in quick succession, as the morale penalty for being under fire seems to last for a few seconds.
For naturally low-morale enemy units, though, I would probably just charge in straight away, as they will break anyway.
This is the real secret behind hybrid use. You must, at some point, commit them to melee. The trick is choosing the right moment to minimize their losses amd maximize the effect on the enemy. As the others have said, first getting off some volleys and then charging is the best option.
I don't believe in using the unlimited ammo option, but I think longbowmen run out of arrows really quickly, too quickly perhaps, but whilst not great in melee they have been instrumental in a few close victories with flank charges.
Speaking of which, anyone ever won a battle with all missile troops vs. a mixed type army of equal size and valour?
Not really, because Ï've always a backup of spears/halberds/swords standing behind them, but my unit of 4 alerbasters + 2 crossbows under a 7-star general with extra defensive capabilities really made mincemeat form a Mongol attack! :hmg:Quote:
Speaking of which, anyone ever won a battle with all missile troops vs. a mixed type army of equal size and valour?
Looking for a little clarification on your question....
Are you saying that you have a troop of foot doing battle with the enemy's foot and you are wondering whether, at that point, it's best to charge on foot or shoot?
Or.....
Are there no foot in the equation at all and it's just your hybrid archers versus some of their men?
If you have, say, some of your spearman engaged with some of their spearmen then I'm quite sure that firing rounds at the enemy's spear will lower the morale of your own troops (apparently, they don't like being shot at by their own men). So, if that is the case then I would say charge the flank, don't shoot the flank.
Otherwise, definitely shoot first then charge.
:yes: Many, many times - always as the Turks. It is very easy to put together an all-missile army that has good melee capability with that faction. With 16 units-worth of arrows flying at an advancing enemy, it can be surprising how little melee fighting is involved :2thumbsup:Quote:
Speaking of which, anyone ever won a battle with all missile troops vs. a mixed type army of equal size and valour?
Like what, Macsen? I'm not sure what those units exactly are.
For the Turks I cannot be sure to be exhaustive but futtawa and ottoman infantry come to mind. Ottoman infantry is not that great h-t-h fighting but I am really no big expert on the Turkish faction (Saracen + Gazzi is the most original line-up I could come up with so be forgiving).
My word of advice regarding missile units would be beware of Trebizon Archers. They have a rather good attack and can cause some nasty surprised when an 8 stars general is in charge ... Even if their general is not vastly superior to yours then can be surprising of you have them chased by your infantry and do not pay attention enough cause they will retreat as long as the land is flat but will stop and charge when they've reached a higher ground than the chasing unit ...
Turks:
Turcomen Foot Soldiers- Really bad attack, but have decent armor and defense, as well as being fleet of foot. Additionally, IIRC, they can be trained from one of those Turkish provinces with +1 valor as well. Far superior to regular archers, but still kinda meh.
Futuwwa- Very good attack, sorta bad defense. Great for shooting and flanking, but care must be taken when handling them, as they can die pretty fast. They do have a large shield, though, which aids in missile duels and survivability.
Ottoman Infantry- +1 valor in Rum. Pretty good attack, okay defence and armor, good morale, and (very unusual for a ranged unit) an armor piercing melee attack as well. Get a master bowyer in Rum and these guys are high quality units all around.
Jannisary Archers- Okay. Okay attack. Okay defense. Okay morale. Okay armor. Nothing really special about these guys, and, imo, they are quite obsolete for the Turks. Hence why I usually mod them to have longbows so that they can actually serve a purpose.
Jannisary Infantry- Jannisary Archers who can do so much more. Better attack, better defense, and slightly better morale. However, they are also kinda obsolete by the Ottoman infantry, because these guys can't pierce armor. Hence, I tend to mod their defense up a point or two so that they truly serve their purpose, and are deserving of their incredibly high requirements(Master bowyers, swordsmith guild, military acadamy). Again, I tend to mod the requirements for the Acadamy so that it isn't dependant on a grand mosque/Cathedral, but that's just me.
Turcomen Horse Archers- Pretty decent horse archers. Can be trained with +1 valor from Antioch, and with a master horse breeder, they will be quite capable as a light/medium cavalry in combat, as long as you don't send them in headlong into other charging units.
Sipahi of the Porte- Royal unit in the late period. Personally, I'd rather have late Ghulam Bodyguards. The bows simply don't do enough damage with a 20 man unit, and meanwhile, it decreases the units charge capabilities. Plus, many late period units are armored quite well, and thus arrows don't even do a lot against most of them. Thus, I mod them to be a 40 man unit, sorta like a somewhat superior Boyar.
Anyways, I think that about sums it up.
Personal favs of mine are Sheppe Heavy Cavalry and Welsh Longows. Both units have armour piercing arrows, and the Longbows have a 3 armour piercing attack which makes them great flankers once they are out of arrows.
SHC actually serve 3 roles in my Volga-Bulgarian army:
1. Drawing enemies towards defensive formations just like regular HA's.
2. Thining out highly armoured units, especially heavy infantry, knights and Halb's. they're not as fast as HA's, but they are still plenty quick enough to skirmish effectively against infantry and keep pace with chasing cavalry. As soon as the knights start towards them run them off to behind your lines. The hapless knights will either follow by themselves and be slaughtered or stop pursuing in which case, just turn around and start firing at them again for free kills!
3. As impact cavalry to either slaughter enemy ranged troops once the battle is joined, or to hit a key unit in the flank or rear and break them. Most times they actually do both. Routing the archers then turning and charging the engaged unit.
But I have to say that my other fav. hybrids are Bashkorts and Bonnachts. Get a unit of bonnacts around a flank and the carnage is sickening. A storm of javelins then a Wedge charge from these 5 attack, 4 charge madmen will break any unit, no matter how tough. They are a 100 man unit too, launching 100 javelins in one go into a pinned opponent is a death sentence in itself most times.
Bashkorts I can't parise enough. They make a great defenseive backbone for the VB army that reists cavalry well with the added bonus of throwing javelins too which allows them to compete with stronger melee infantry. Did I mention they are Fast so they can chase down archers and also VERY cheap both to build and upkeep?
Valour 2 Egyptian Nizaris are perfect for the shoot-and-charge. They have a devastating charge + attack, and extremely high morale. They will break any non-cavalry unit that is already committed to a fight.
I have to admit, I'm not a huge fan of normal speed missile cavalry. It just doesn't suit my style of play. I guess I've been spoiled by the Turkish and Hungarian line-up, but if my missile cavalry can't outrun knights, then I don't have much use for them.
I've always wanted to try Hungary for their Szekely units. They seem like very capable Hybrid cavalry. I've noticed that in XL though Mounted Crossbows got a huge boost and are now both effective AP missile cavalry, and decent but not devastating Melee cav.
What is the hungarian unit line up?
What cavalry and infantry do you have access to? Do you get Halb's? Chiv. Serg's? men at arms? Arbalesters? Feudal/Chivalric Knights?
I wish there was somewhere I could get a full unit run down for each XL faction.
The Hungarians get access to all fuedal and chivalric units, from the seargeants to men at arms to the knights. They also get access to arbalesters of both sorts, as well as halbardiers. They also have access to joggaby, a light skirmisher/javelineer, as well as Szekely, a very nice, fast hybrid horse archer. If you can get to Moldavia, they can then recruit Avar Nobles, who can fill the heavy cavalry spot for a while until the high period. In vanilla VI, I thought Hungary was actually the best faction, becaue they got all the perks of a regular catholic faction(okay, minus crusades, but that's not a big deal for me for the most part), as well as being able to recruit a fantastic horse archer pretty much right away, and having Avar Nobles, a quality heavy cavalry, not far away. Plus, all the spots which the Serbia and Cumans occupy in XL were rebel, and thus, a Hungarian player could get all the way to Kiev in the east, set up shop there, and wait for the Mongols at the bridge. Plus, Venice is just a hop and a skip away from Croatia, and if you can muster it, Constantinople looms not too far off. Furthermore, they start with two provinces with have iron deposits, making for the potential of some really nasty units. Personal favorite is halbardiers with metalsmiths-they just turn everything into carnage. Of course, in XL, you now have to fight your way through the Cumans and Serbs, and mountex x-bows now sort of obsoleting szekely to a degree. However, Hungary is still quite good, it just now takes a bit more effort to get through that initial surge to establish positon. Overall, still a very strong faction. Oh, and as a bonus, the Hungarian's starting king has 9 piety, and, more often than not, gets a nice little 'reward' from the Pope for his services to Catholicism.Quote:
Originally Posted by Heidrek
Sounds like Hungary is a go once I have conquered the world as the Volga Bulgars!
Out of interest, other than Jinettes, Bonnachts and Bashkorts are theyre any other good Hybrid Javelin/Melee units? Kerns seem decent, as do Korean Skirmishers - are the KS a spear or sword unit? Who gets them other than the Golden Horde? I've fallen in love with Javelins at the moment!
Korean skirmishers are a sword unit, and radically different than bashkorts in that they are much more heavily armored, and have rather good defense for a 'skirmisher'. Personally, I'd relate them more to a poor man's Roman Legion than a usual skirmisher. However, only the GH can recruit them, so the only ones you'll be getting as Hungary will be mercs. Though I'd heartily advise a GH campaign in late-its definitely a very, very interesting campaign!(not that a person who has the word 'khaan' in his username is biased at all.:beam: )
I tend to use Bashkorts mainly as a spear wall, with the added advantage that their javs give them some serious offensive capabilities. I tind to have them lined up in thin ranks, two units deep, so that any unit closing with them will take 2 volleys of javelins before they can hit melee range. Even better if I have a high ground advantage as this improves the throwing range of the javelins and can mean an extra volley or two.
The "Bashers" then close and hold their position while I try and get units into flanking positions. The best thing is that they don't have to be affraid of of cavalry or even heavy infantry too much. though weaker in stats, the javelin volleys weaken anyone trying to close with them.
As a side benefit they can also take out Horse archers and the like by walking up close to them without attacking then stopping once in Jav. Range and throwing their missiles - something not many units can do.
If only they had more javelins. For Catholics though Kerns might be an option for a more traditional flanker. Place a couple of these units behind the spear wall to let them unload their missiles, then run them to the side to flank. Do you know whether thay are available in High or just early?
They are available throughout the game, but be warned, they are rather vulnerable. All it takes is a charge from some light cavalry to chase them away...:charge:Quote:
Do you know whether thay are available in High or just early?
Ha! If I'm using them as melee attacher then there's either no non anrcher cavalry of any sort left, or they are already committed and taken care of!
Their weak defense means that even as a flanker they'll take losses to do their job, but I really love dual purpose units at the moments - Bashkorts have truely shown me the light on how effective javelin units can be if they aren't constantly running away!!
My kick arse Bashkort General just got the Specialist Field Defender and Skilled Last Stand Virtues following his desperate defense of scotland agianst another massive French army. 2200 French against 400 odd VB's i captured and executed their general too! I had to use my vanilla Archers as fighting troops, but in the end I held them off.
The down side is that he's also got the Merciless Vice as well - killing hundreds more prisoners to stop them taking the field again has it's price. Once again - Steppe Heavy Cavalry were instrumental in taking the heart out of the enemy, both figuratively and literally. Chosing when to run and fire and when to charge and fight was without doubt the difference between winning and losing that battle.
Yep. The Turkish units have been over hauled in my game.
Ex:Turcoman Horse now shoots AP arrows, as well as Sipahis of The Porte(modded for all periods, now a 40 man unit).
Janissary Archers are now longbow users, and Janissary Inf have had their melee capabilities much improved(nearly as strong as Gothic Foot Knights, I think).
:jawdrop: Dang, overboard? Did you give them an armor piercing attack? I just gave them a shield, and two extra defense, as well as giving them a regular infantry charge bonus(3).Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravencroft
Well, I think what I said went out of context.
Well they're armed with basic bows, and their stats are 2/5/4/4/4. Just to clarify...
And BTW they don't have an AP attack
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Ah, okay. You said Gothic Foot Knights, so I thought they were, well, kinda uber-ized. After all, GFK tear through pretty much every other infantry in the game, so I was kinda concerned about how such a unit, with bows and an extra 20 guys, was ever going to be defeated in any kind of halfways fair fight.:sweatdrop:
Speaking of GFKs, they are like Hospitaller Foot Knights, but get less def/armor and higher attack.(In my game of course!)
By the way, any other useful hybrids?
From memory 2 units of xbows or even better Arbalesters would probably do the job. Possibly even 1 mounted Xbows might be able to take them out 1 on 1 as well.
Oh yeah, forgot they have bows too.....that could make things VERY tricky!!!
I remember trying to fight Viking Huscarles in the VI campaign, there was just nothing that could stand up to them but I managed to get 1 unit of them to chase 2 Pictish Xbows, who took turns firing at the poor vikings. It took a while but the Huscales got torn apart until they finally retreated. Good times.
Useful hybrids? Look no further than my fav's Bashkorts and Bonnachts! Bashers hold the line in the same capacity as spearmen and can stand toe to toe with stronger units, especially cavalry (normally the bane of javelin units) allowing your other units to flank them, with the added bonus of lobbing Jav's at them as they close in. If ignore, THEY can flank the enemy unit with a devastating rain of javelins and then charge them in to take advantage of their meaty 5 charge bonus. Unlike Spearmen they dont get a rank bonus so they lose nothing by going onto "Engage at Will" and dont have to hold formation to be effective.
Bonnachts are monsters, 4 charge and 5 attack, plus they are 100 men strong - have them lob their javelins (only 1 each unfortunately) then go into Wedge and charge them into the engaged and now reeling enemy unit for an instant route. for best results point them at an elite unite like Chiv. Footknights or Royal Body guards, that way when they route (and they will route - no one sticks around after losing half their number to Javelins then getting rear charged by a hundred screaming, psycho clansmen who give no thought to their own safety). Once you go javelin, you never go back.
Ok, but I don't have VI... yet.
Any good ideas though?