Secondary Attack

When a unit has a listed attack, such as the base 9 attack for Armoured Hoplites, is that also their attack with the backup weapons, such as an AH's sword? I know missile units have both listed, but regulars do not. Also, I would imagine that a spear unit using swords loses their bonus vs cav.
Also, do Forester Warband get a bonus vs cav when they go to their backup weapons, which are spears? I was chasing a retreating (not routing) unit of FW with a pretty good unit of Macedonian Cav:2thumbsup:, so I did not really get a charge bonus when I hit them, but the FW toasted my MC, so that I had to pull them back so they wouldn't rout. Regular Warband are not listed to have an anti-cav bonus as a trait, and don't seem to do that well against them. Eastern Infantry fare somewhat better.

You need to consult the "export_descr_unit.txt" file to see both the primary and secondary stats. Indeed, a spear unit using swords against cavalry lose their bonus, and conversely, a backup weapon that is a spear gains the bonus [and IIRC, Foresters are the only unit with a spear as a secondary...one has to wonder how they wear it while using the bow:inquisitive:)]

This is a pretty damn good summary of what everything in the descr_unit.txt file means:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...lete-EDU-Guide

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Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai

You need to consult the "export_descr_unit.txt" file to see both the primary and secondary stats. Indeed, a spear unit using swords against cavalry lose their bonus, and conversely, a backup weapon that is a spear gains the bonus [and IIRC, Foresters are the only unit with a spear as a secondary...one has to wonder how they wear it while using the bow:inquisitive:)]

This is a pretty damn good summary of what everything in the descr_unit.txt file means:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...lete-EDU-Guide

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Thought there was one more unit who had the spear as a backup, but that may have been EB. Come to think of it, I am pretty sure it was EB. I will also have to check if the spears of cav are a bonus against enemy cav. I typically now have my cav use swords on infantry and spears on cav.

In Shogun, Yari Cavalry use spears and are the best cavalry unit to use against other cavalry. Don't know if that translated to RTW. I do know that Lancers, Companion, and Sarmatian Cavalry do very well against other cavalry:shrug:

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Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai

In Shogun, Yari Cavalry use spears and are the best cavalry unit to use against other cavalry. Don't know if that translated to RTW. I do know that Lancers, Companion, and Sarmatian Cavalry do very well against other cavalry:shrug:

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Companions are freakin' awesome anyway. They are the Macedonian unit that can turn a battle. I try to avoid having my lancers get involved with other cav. They get wasted in melee combat, that is where I use my Greek Cavalry, if I have to use my light cav against other cavalry. I prefer hit and run with lancers, or hitting an already-engaged enemy. Preferably I use my Macedonian Cav to deal with the enemy cav. Or infantry. A good MC can make short work of even Legionary Cohort, at least on M/M.

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I try to avoid having my lancers get involved with other cav. They get wasted in melee combat

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Very true. The trick is to tie up an enemy cavalry unit with infantry or another cav unit. The Lancers have a very high charge bonus, so a flanking/rear attack almost always breaks the enemy cav. In my own Macedonian campaigns I keep my best Lancers well into a game for chasing routers especially enemy generals. Lancers are one of the top three cavalry units in speed (only Arab Cavalry in desert conditions are faster, in my experience).

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Companions are freakin' awesome anyway. They are the Macedonian unit that can turn a battle.

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Yep. Someone at CA studied Alexander's campaigns well:yes:

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Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai

Very true. The trick is to tie up an enemy cavalry unit with infantry or another cav unit. The Lancers have a very high charge bonus, so a flanking/rear attack almost always breaks the enemy cav. In my own Macedonian campaigns I keep my best Lancers well into a game for chasing routers especially enemy generals. Lancers are one of the top three cavalry units in speed (only Arab Cavalry in desert conditions are faster, in my experience).

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That is when my light cav usually comes out, to chase the enemy. Greek Cav are ok against light infantry, and I will use light cav to hit a unit that has already taken casualties. I may use Lancers to hit somebody because of the charge bonus, but then I get them out of there. Again, I prefer to hit somebody who is already fighting somebody else, usually the Lancers hit somebody who is fighting my Macedonian Cav, or the Lancers get engaged then the MC hit, though that is less preferable.

And don't Macedonian Cavalry have the best ID call in the game? "Cavalry! Macedon's Finest!"

~D

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Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai

And don't Macedonian Cavalry have the best ID call in the game? "Cavalry! Macedon's Finest!"

~D

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Yeah, although I believe Praetorian and Urban Cohort do say, "Rome's Finest!". I like in EB the Spartans say, in a bit of a gravelly tone, "Spartiate Hoplitai!" Just the way they say it makes it even cooler, like an "I am a Spartan, nothing more needs to be said." I guess by the end of the third century BC, though, Sparta's hoplites weren't anything special. But I think the Macedonian Cav are my favorite cav unit in the game. As they say, if they are the finest of Macedon's cav, that is something, Macedon was famous for its cav.

Just took a look at the export_descr_units file combined with the link you mentioned. Wow. That really helps. It totally answers the question and helps me with strategy. The Armoured Hoplites do have a reduced attack when they go to the swords (5 instead of 9), and the Forester Warband get a +8 to defense vs cav, -4 defense vs infantry, and a +4 to their attack vs cav. Pila are considered armour piercing. Desert axemen are not AP. Thank you so much for the link and what file to look at.

I had the same reaction when I found that file description...wow. He did a great job of breaking things down.

:bow:

Yeah, the AH have the same secondary attack as regular Hoplites. I don't use them on walls anyway, where the AH would still probably do better because of their defense, but since I have a phalanx unit I barricade the streets:stop:. I keep referencing Hoplites because that is mainly what I was concerned about. Cav are better going to their secondary attack, if they have one. Most cav units that have a secondary attack (which is pretty much non-barbarian civilizations) have their attack with swords +1 or +2 over their spear attack. Their spear attack does not carry any special attributes against cav, which answered that question. Barbarian cav (in general, not the BC unit) pretty much always only have their primary attack, if I remember correctly Scythian melee cav carry swords which are +2 over their spears, Roman/Greek and such have +1 over their spears.

The spear is there for the charge bonus (all the momentum of the charge gets placed in that shiny, sharp spear tip :sweatdrop: ) as far as cavalry goes, but yes, close combat usually goes better with secondary weapons, regardless of circumstances. Cataphracts and possibly egyptian cavarly with axes have armor piercing bonuses attached to the secondary attack.