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//Pre-Script: Just to clarify, there will be mention of retreating/falling back in the following post. This does not refer to routing. Now that the distinction has been pointed out I'm sure you all will understand it.//
I'm slightly excited.
Ever read about actual battles, and hear about such and such falling back, so and so regrouping, this army or the other being pushed backwards, this contingent or the other disengaging? Then go into Shogun where melee orbits solely around it's initiating point and there is no break from intense and terrible battle until one side or the other is all dead or routed?? Where ordering a charge is the absolute point-of-no-return? Where an attempt to retreat is suicide and should only be attempted to save a particularly singular asset, such as your daimyo or a nice taisho?
I may have found a way to fix this!! Oh boy oh boy!!
Try reducing units' Enemy Engagement Proximity Threshold to 300. It is beautiful! We actually see logical hiatii (hiatuses) in the melee! Opportunities to regroup, retreat, whatever! Just like all of the actual battle accounts talk about! Just like it logically should be!
And all without it doing anything weird like you might expect.
And these hiatii actually are not so frequent as I may make it sound by talking about them, they seem to come at logical intervals (if at all, though in most cases you will have some). In some cases you wouldn't expect one at all, but if a unit has a certain turn of bad fortune (such as the leader dying) they will begin to back off a bit.
With this system, I find even little 1 unit vs. 1 unit test battles truly engrossing, because it gives you a decent number of tactical options on even that small level. You can marshall your troops, trying to effect a hiatus to regroup and reform, ordering them to press harder upon a lagging enemy.. before you pretty much told them to charge and then it was over!
Imagine the options this might provide on a larger scale-- pulling wayward contingents back into line, feigning retreats to entrap or disorganize your foe, all sorts of stuff.
I was even able to effect a decent retreat with my Cav away from spears during testing (took considerable casualties, but got away with a large enough group to have made the maneuver worth it). I have a feeling that with some more thoughtful modification of cavalry maneuverability and the implementation of some form of the Cavalry reforms undertaken by the Mizus, Cavalry could really be equipped for it's frequent historical role of hit-and-run! That would be great.
..
But ho there, don't get too excited yet, this is still in hypothesis stage. I'm just saying it looks good. Please test it out if you like. I'll be doing more testing tomorrow.
Matt
//P.S.: The technique for a fallback/retreat that I've been using is an ALT-doubleleftclick. This is the "move to said location without changing facing" order, and is the only current option for such a maneuver.//
[This message has been edited by Khan7 (edited 11-30-2001).]
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sounds very good, however it does reduce the amount of time that units are 'charging' for...this was specifically increased for cavalry in the patch. I can see it being useful with some units, such as no dachi and yari cavalry, but across the board I would not like to see it (am still exited by it though...)
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WOW!
This really IS a breakthrough, Khan! I would absolutely adore you if you balanced this and got it to work! My major gripe with Shogun as a whole has always been that I never could disengage from melee. Historically, it was always a hard thing to do successfully, but it did happen, unlike in Shogun, where it never did. This is truly fantastic news. Finally, there's a true benefit to fast units! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
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Disappear into the Darkness!!
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Sounds great! But there was always a different way. Simply set to "hold formation" and get them out of there. Or hit "withdraw from battle". But this will definatly be fascinating.
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Official Mongol Cavalry-lover and servant of the Khan of Khans
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Well, the 300 EEPS is out, in combat involving more than a couple units your guys start doing REALLY weird things. I'm starting to warm to the 500 EEPS.. but not totally sure yet.
After about a dozen straight losses to AI in 5v5 Nagis, I realized that this was due to the fact that cheap shots are out (no quick flanking to get hella kills, much more realistic in areas like this), and the AI doesn't suffer from fatigue. So I basically end up losing cuz my guys tire while the enemy stays pumped the whole time, and I can't implement any cheap shots that might ordinarily gain victory.
It also has to do with the fact that I'm using Nagis, and they last a while, long enough for fatigue to be a factor.
Anyway, gonna go do some more testing, if any of you would like to try it out too that would be good.
Matt
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Of course I just tried a 5v5 Ashis, and I won decisively. Of course this just could be because the AI is keeping their Ashis in engage-at-will which is with the Real Deal a fairly suicidal policy for spears.
GAH! Screw testing against the AI. Need human tester. GAH!
Matt
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I'd volunteer, but I really shouldn't get involved in anything like this two weeks before finals. Grades mean scholarship money. I NEED scholarship money. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
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Disappear into the Darkness!!
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Any progress, Matt? I'll help you test after the 15th, if you need someone.
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Disappear into the Darkness!!
