A new unit

Roman legionair

Roman Legionaries
Roman Legionaries are tough, well trained and highly effective infantry: the backbone of the Roman army after the Marian reforms. Six centuries form a cohort, which is approximately the same size as a modern infantry battalion. Legionaries fight using a combination of hand-hurled, armour-piercing pila (spears) released just before contact and the famed gladius (short sword) which is used as a stabbing weapon. They wear a good-quality helmets, chainmail armour and carry large shields. Legionairies are superb in close combat, but they can be slow over more difficult terrain, as their close-order formations, such as the testudo (or tortoise) require them to keep in step. Historically, the cohorts were raised after general Marius reformed the Roman army and did away with the land-owning hastati-principes-triarii legionaries and recruited men from the landless poor. Every man who retires from the Legion after 25 years service can expect enough land to give him an income in his old age.

Man, I think something is a bit wrong. Five minutes ago I checked and there was nothing, and after using your link, it appeared http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/dizzy.gif


Anyway, good description. I figure is some kind of late type of legionaire. Or maybe they'll include triarii, principes and hastati as different units when you train troops, which would be wrong

I think it may actually be a mid-era legionnaire.

The pic does not show him wearing banded plate and mentions chain-mail in the description.

Most of the screenshots show legionnaires in banded-plate.

This could be evidence of CA having legionnaires present throughout the game but evolving so they are equipped similarly to that time in history.

I can't recall but when was Marius in the Republican era?

Was near the beginning, middle, or end?

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (pr Fire @ May 30 2003,16:56)]Man, I think something is a bit wrong. Five minutes ago I checked and there was nothing, and after using your link, it appeared http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/dizzy.gif

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Me2

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Sir Robin @ May 30 2003,11:55)]I can't recall but when was Marius in the Republican era?

Was near the beginning, middle, or end?

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Marius was towards the end of the Republic. Gaius Marius was Julius Caesar's uncle by marriage, and was consul about 40 or so years before Julius.

That would fit the evolution process then.

Banded-plate legionnaires would probably become available during the end-game.

When did the roman legions begin to widely use the banded-plate frequently shown in movies and websites?

I'm personally not sure, but I believe that banded plate and chain mail were both used during the same time periods up through fourth century AD. I also noticed that drawing of Hastati and Principes in a book of mine depict them as being quite Trajanic and with the banded mail. The phalanx legion with the oval shield and spear I believe was discarded several decades before the Punic Wars.

http://www.roman-empire.net/army/legionary.html
http://www.roman-empire.net/army/legionary-mail.html
These two links display two different Trajanic Legionairies in chain mail and banded plate.

IIRC it whas somewhere at the beginning of the Imperial period. somewhere in the first century IIRC.

but the game ends at 14CE and lorica segmata is in, thats a little weird or I'm wrong about when it first came in use.
Me thinks I'm wrong http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/tongue.gif

I don't care *too much* about historical accuracy on this unit,but I think it is really important that they model it correctly.
I really hope those pilla's wont just some AP javelins who they throw at the enemy and cause a few casualties( like in Medieval)
I want pillas to disorganise units for some time,and allow Legionnaires to charge through their lines.

Yeah lorica segmata looks cooler anyway http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/tongue.gif
It doens't bother me...

Really, I hope the range of the pilla is increased, not like a javelin stands now in MTW.

Hm according Javelins... anyone found the Slav Javelinmen worthwhile?

Maybe they are just so worthless to me because I am playing a late era campaign right now.

I think that it will be difficult to give those pilum/spear/javelin-throwing units sense without making them uber-powerful. But the current implementation of javelins somewhat sucks.

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Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (pr Fire @ May 31 2003,04:37)]Really, I hope the range of the pilla is increased, not like a javelin stands now in MTW.

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Pila had to be rather heavy. The range should be short. Less than lighter javalins used by velites for sure. The legionaries weren't skirmishers after all. After heaving these things they were ready to rumble with scutum and gladius.

Anyway, I like this guy. No greeves. Lorica hamata. Pilum. Helmet OK. Looks like one of Marius' Mules to me.

I read somewhere that Legionaries threw their first (lighter) pila at something like 20 or 30 m (60 or so feet) Then their second (the heavier one)at about 10m (30ish feet)
I definatly think that the range of javalins should be increased. I changed it(good old GnomeEditer)so javalins have 2000 range (instead of their usual 1500) and made them fire faster (making them able to fire at least once before getting charged)

I wish the javilinmen were like the old MI ones. Those Korean guys looked like they chucked humoungous tree roots, and did the appropriate damage http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/joker.gif I would, of course, give them less ammo though.

If legionaries are the backbone of the legion after Marius, what was the backbone before Marius?? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/joker.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/dizzy.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/dizzy.gif

Cohortes were in use long before Marius made them de rigur too http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/rolleyes.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/rolleyes.gif

The bit about them being bad in rough terrain because of their close formations such as the testudo is nonsense too - the testudo was only used in seiges, not in field battles, and the standard formation for legionary swordsmen was 3 foot frontage per man - they fought in a rather loose formation

However more important than that is the implied importance on the nature of hte ground - it sounds as if there's goign to be something better then just various slopes of good ground - but we already know that .....it's still nice to see some implied confirmation. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/smile.gif

There's some evidence of lorica seg at Kalkriese, which seems to be hte site of the battle where three legions were destroyed under Varus in AD9. So it is in period.

The testudo thing is dodgy, but hopefully as with the flaming arrows it's just marketing blurb. CA seem to have done their homework by and large so we'll give them the benefit of the doubt for now. No doubt if you so desire you can order testudo at any time you like.

THe range of the pila really shouldn't be that great. http://webpages.charter.net/brueggem...-contents.html
For all htings Roman army, read the page on the pilum volley

It's interestign to note that the up-armoured soldiers for the Dacian campaign in 103-105 wore mail rather than segmentata - it's been postulated that this was because mail gave more complete coverage - segmentata stopped at the waist whereas a mail "skirt" would usually cover down to the thighs.

As Cataline says, there's evidence of Segmentata in the first decade AD, and that's about when Auxiliaries started to wear lots of mail too - leading to speculation that they were receiving discarded legionary armour that had been replaced.

However uptake of Segmentata was by no means universal, and legions in the east especially seem to have continued to wear mail into the 2nd century AD.

By the third century A.D. even the western legions seem to have reverted back to chain mail, no one is quite sure exactly why or when this occured, but by that century,the Lorica segmentata seems to have fallen out of use.

Yes, but YOU could make lorica segmentata come about earlier... pun intended http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/joker.gif

And i sure as hell tok em long enough to get the unit up... SHEESH.And they still havent fixed the woad warrior. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/rolleyes.gif

Catiline is right, Pilum range should be short.
The pilum is HEAVY, it isn't a javelin.
It's designed so it will stick into the enemy shield, so that he can't use it anymore. Remember, your shield is your most important piece of equipment, without it you are dead.Unless you are maybe completely covered in plate-mail.

The heavier the pilum is the more difficult it becomes to use the shield, thus the more effective the pilum. That's why you sometimes find pila with heavy lead balls.

I think actually the pilum was designed not to stick in the enemy shield but to pierce it, the length and narrowness of the shaft meant once it had made contact it passed through the shield and got the bloke holding it. The fact htat afterwards the shield was unuseable was simply a bonus if the intention of incapaicitating the man had been unsuccessful.

But the principles the same, short range, heavy weight... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/smile.gif

Well, the shaft is often extremely narrow and soft near the tip. It would rather bend then pass completely through, methinks. The pyramid shaped tip is also very good as an 'anchor'. We once trew a pilum through some heavy plywood. After the tip had forced the wood apart and passed through, the wood had veered back a little. The pilum couldn't be drawn out anymore. We had to split the wood to get it out.
Of course hitting the enemy instead of his shield wouldbe preferable. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...cons/smile.gif

Oh yeah - and Romans didn't march in step either AFAIK http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wink.gif