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Still, making the Romans catholic, and therefore subject to the pope, would be awesome, as the Pope would act as if it was the Senate. Don't know about crusades though; you could use them as representations of emperors trying to reform the army, or , especially in the case of Justianus, for the reconquests the Romans tried to make.
I agree with Max about the Romans and crusades, the Romans were on the defensive at this time.
Kataphraktoi put the Pope in Finland in the Darkages mod. If you want to get the Pope out of Italy, you can put him in Finland and isolate it like the Sahara. Then make it a minor faction. It will never be eliminated beacuse it can't be attacked, and will not re-emerge in Rome.
Sicilian Vespers.
this is a good idea, i'll test it
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But could you win by conquering all lands?
Max, I tried this, and it did not work. The Popes Faction did die out, even though Finland was isolated. It was a lack of heirs, i'm assuming. When it reemerged a few year later, it emerged in ROME only. It was a big disappointment. It was a minor faction.Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
Is their a way to insure more heirs? Or you could start it in Finland, and if it reemerges in Rome, so be it. You could give it Peasant only units, or slaves, if you wanted to make it somewhat manageable.
AB
I'd like to raise the question of the extremely hard barbarian factions in the campgiens. Most barabarians don't have access to the coasts, and are isolated to one or two provinces. Now, I'm all for historical accuracey, but this its REALLY hard to play as barbarians, or really anyone BUT the Roman Empires. I tried the Arabs on the early era, thinking I'll do the usual and set up an Economy and raise an army. boy was I in for a suprise. I had one useless homeland, and Byzantines around me with some more Persians with no water access. Whats the only viable thing to do? Attack Byzantine. I take maybe 2 port towns, then 2 or 3 stacks come and wipe me out. Can you at least make it so the other factions besides the Romans have an easy way to gain an economy in the early era?
Besides that, its a great mod. I'm not much for a Roman historian, so I didn't really know what the romans where doing at this time. Also, will Gladiators eventually be included in the Roman and Byzantine armies?
Hi A_B.
This is a bad news. I'm also doing a little test but the Pope isn't died yet.. probably you are right, the best thing is to place the Pope in Finland (without any links to other province) and giving it only Peasants and maybe Fanatics.
Anyway it possible to give him an heir, simply add the follow string in the startpos file (in the faction leader section of the file, obviously).
AddHeir:: FN_POPE 1 1
This should work.
TigerVx.
Yes it is a really an hard work to play with some factions, particularly the Arabs. But i've tried to make the mod more historically accurate as possible, and the Arabs emerged as a mediterranean power only around 620 AD, sorry...
Anyway two rich provinces are at arabs disposal, the Aegypt and Palaestine, after conquered these the arabs can only hope to resist... maybe the Persians could help them.
the Gladiators fought alongside the roman army only in some battles at the beginning of the Roman history, but there will be some new roman units in the next version, the Equites Catafractarii
the Praetorians
the Romano-Celtic warbands (only for the Romano-British)
Sicilian Vespers.
I think that Ghassanids were very similar to later Arabs, so i think that they had spear-armed infantry and infantry archers, but very poor in cavalry i think....
... but i don't know if there will be some ghassanid units in the next version. I'm actually involved in making the heavy roman infantry and cavalry.
max
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Max & A_B,
What if you don't declare the PAPISTS faction, and remove all entries form the startpos txt file?
I have never tried this, so I don't know if it will work.
TigerVx,
You need to be an opportunist. Just ally with one side, and wait for them to go to war. You obviously can't go on the offensive vs the Byzantines or Persians, so just pick up what their scraps until you can build yourself up.
Max,
Are you going to give Latin units to the Byzantines in the earlier years?
Just a thought, but you could move the start date of High to around 650 AD (around the time the Themes were created), and make the traditional Byzantine units (Skoutatoi, Kataphraktoi, etc...) available in High and Late. Then you can use the excellent shields for both Eastern and Western Roman.
This would be an easy way to illustrate the switch to the Thematic system.
I agree about the Arabs. Depending on your alliances, you can basically play as either the Ghassanids (Roman Ally) or Lahkmids (Persian Ally).
Keep working on the Equites Catafractarii, I can't wait to see them (I have already renamed Alan Catafracts to Equites Alani Catafractarii)
Sicilian Vespers.
Should be a good idea to avoid to declare tha Papal faction...
if i assign the roman units to Byzantine in early era , maybe the beginnin of the high era should be the period of Justinian (around 530ad),it seems to me that during the Gothic war, Byzantine made use of armoured horse archers armed with bows and spears (the Kataphraktoi) and made use of infantry tactics (and weapons) very similar to those used by the later Skoutatoi.
is it right?
Hi Maximus, I really think you should get this topic sticked. Ask the mods of this forum. Thanks for a fun mod.
I think you're right, the army changed before the institution of the themes.Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
I think it would be safe to use 530 AD for the switch, but you should keep the crossover units like the Milites Limitanei and Buccellarii.
Are you going to make a new shield for the Skoutatoi? The kite shield was in use much later.
PseRamesses.
Ok. I also think so. i'll ask the mod
Sicilian Vespers.
i'm really involving in graphic work now, i don't know if i'll do another new shield.... maybe ....
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The problems with the Arabs is that they have ALOT of men, but Arabia provides almost no income. So you have to strike early in order to get money, or your funds run out, and can't wait for Persia of Byzantine to go to war. But I'm still hoping I can carve out an empire with them
These are the 1st version of Equites Catafractarii, work is in progress the soldier's helmets will be substituted with a roman cavalry shape.
http://www.totalwar.org/Downloads/Mt...AFRACTARII.JPG
Sicilian Vespers.
I've tried to remove all entries abuot the Papist faction from the starpos file .... The game DIDN'T WORK AT ALL
Probably the presence of Papist faction is hardcoded.
So maybe the best thing is to pot the Pope in Finland (isolated) and assign him only peasants and maybe religious fanatic as royal units.
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max
I've got idea. Are Papists hardcoded to emerge in region named Rome or in certain coordinates in map?
If the first is true, you can declare finland region as Rome, but in Loc/Eng files can rename it back to Finland.
Point is, that for game will be Rome in Finland and for players in real Rome, so Pope will emerge in Finland.
Or you can use that Viking campmap. Just replace it with that map of whole Europe. Because I think, that players will play your mod rather than that Viking campaign and Pope isn't located there (I think).
About those Equites Catafractarii, shouldn't they hold lances in other hand than shield?
Hi SpetzNaz
Maybe your idea is good, i will try to make what you have thought.
You are right about the Equites Catafractarii, but i made the shields only to make the Cata more recognizable, in fact they are almost the same than the Alan Heavy cavalry.
Have you received the .jpg files that i sent you?
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Putting the Pope in Finland worked in Kataphraktoi's Darkages mod. You should look at the startpos file to see how it was done.Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
I played Darkages alot, and it was never a problem. It should work.
I always assumed the best general became Pope if there are no heirs. How can the Papacy die out due to lack of heirs?
A_B,
Did you give the Pope any other units, in your test?
Max,
I almost forgot, I did a little checking last night. According to Osprey's Romano-Byzantine Armies, the Justinian's Exarch of Africa had Milites Comitatenses (Skoutatoi & Kataphraktoi?) and Limitanei in his army, so I think a mix of Latin and some new Greek units would be perfect.
Equites Illyriciani would be another good unit, as they were pretty important at the time.
Good work on the Equites Catafractarii.
If you mean that zip file, yes I've got it. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ns/gc-lost.gif
In my test, the Pope had the same unit mix as the Romans - the full compliment - as i had been leaving them in Rome as a rebellious senate.Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
I was very surprised that the papal faction died out. Perhaps it is was a fluke.
I also gave Finland a HUGE income, so the Pope could give all the barbarian factions extra Florin, to keep them viable.
AB
Another idea about Papists.
They could be used to represent barbarians who will still reemerge (in province declared as rome and placed, for example, in german lands) and will still attack you (Romans surely had to deal with those who still led rebelions against them.
Their religions don't have to be changed (I think that it is impossible), just change images representig christians (that grey cross) and names into something barbarian-like.
If you'll do this for all barbarians, papist (renamed to Germans) calling for crusade could be used as calling for barbarians to attack you and when all barbarians (or most of them) will be originally christians, thy will be able to use crusade (renamed to something like Barbarian Raid) against you (Romans and other nonbarbarians).
Do you understand what I mean? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...icons/wave.gif
Another idea.
What if those, originally Papists, were the Huns? Plenty of barbarian tribes joined or followed (or run before) them. They should be able to use crusades as well. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/cheers.gif
Is it East American time shown in date of post?
If yes, I wish to all from bad side of Earth good dinner? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...ons/cheers.gif
What if we use the Papist faction as a rebel Roman faction.
Don't assign them any provinces, or place the leader.
When the Pope aka the Usurper emerges, you have a very large rebellion in the Capital.
They could represent leaders like Odovacar, Ricimer, etc...
this could work...
I think I will try to find time to test this tonight.
I think I will call the faction the Foederati and make its leader the Patrician of Italy.
One problem with this, for Justinian and afterward they would have to be renamed back to the Papists.
SpetzNatz,
I think Max said the crusades didn't work. They were still launched against the Pagans and Muslims.
If renaming Rome works. The Picts or Irish would also be a good choice for a new faction.
I just tested not assigning any provinces and not placing the Papist leader.
I played 20 turns (auto resolving), had no garrison in Rome with a tax rate of very high, and the Pope never emerged?
If you don't start the Pope in the beginning of the campaign, will that prevent him from emerging?
I don't know if I will have more time to test tonight, but will try.
I did just this in a 406ad mod. The Germans are all Christians, along with the Pope. They all start with a chapter house, a lot of units, and enough money for two crusades.Quote:
Originally Posted by [b
In order to survive, the Roman player has to attack the Pope in Rome, and destroy him before the barbarians can launch Crusades (they need the popes blessing to do this). So this must be done on turn one, and the castle reduced on turn two. I had crusades set to take two years to make.
The Roman player then had 5 to 10 years to prepare, with lots of money, but not enough upgrades to produce quality units.
When the Pope reemerged, all the Germanic factions would immediately launch crusades. It was definitely historic. When the AI controlled the Romans, they never lasted more than 20 years before they were isolated to one or two provinces. As the human, i found them too damn frustrating to play, civil war after civil war. I may go back to it after i'm done with BKB's mod.
AB
Hi All.
to summarize a few things:
the Crusade option doesn't work very well, german kingdoms (catholics) do crusades against pagan (first) and muslim factions, but not against orthodox.
about the pope problem, probably the best ideas are to put the pope in finland and rename it as Rome, this should be possible only changing something in startpos files, also we can assume that the pope is a rebellious roman faction and leave him in rome as a normal faction, or we can assume that he is a rebel roman faction but without assigning provinces and placing leader....
the last option is very interesting if it should work. i made a test without declaring the Pope and the game didn't start at all as i said yesterday, but if the Sicilian Vespers option should work maybe the problem would be resolved....
... how can we name the papal faction? The Senate? The Patricians? The Landowners? The Aristocracy? please keep in mind that i can assign only one name for ALL the Campaigns.
Also to make new factions isn't a real problem, i already made the Maxentius Roman faction for the 304ad campaign.
SpetzNaz.
yes i mean that .zip file.
Sicilian Vespers.
you are right, before the thematic reform the Byzantine had a mix of units, the old roman ones, and the new ones, all called generically numeri , if i remember ..
i'll see the Darkage mod.
A_B.
Hi , yes i know playing with the romans in some campaigns is hard, but this should be reflect the real situation.
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Topic is pinned.
My unitgraphics
First one minor thing, the BIFs were not made for the WotR mod but for general use in the normal campaigns. The WotR mod will get entirely new graphics http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cg...s/gc-grin2.gif
In your PM you referred to my Swabian Swordsmen unitgraphics. Feel free to use them and do whatever you want with it as long as you credit me for the unitgraphics.
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Good luck with your mod,
Duke John