Does the Silmarillion Contradict Third age History?

Does the Silmarillion Contradict Third age History?

“Pure myth and legend....cosmological myth ”
-Letters of J.R.R Tolkien 122

The third age should have propriety in our understanding middle earth as Tolkien said was his best work and his published work. When he was working on the sillmarillon to finalize for publishing in letters 247 he said “They must have to be integrated with Lord of the Rings” and “the legends [sillmarillion] have to be worked over and made consistent.” Any supposed or perceived contradictions in any of his works should first be sought to be harmonized. In the letters of J.R.R Tolkien the author spent a great deal of time doing just this. In letters 19 he said he was doing a “construction of elaborate and consistent mythology.” in letters 163 Tolkien said he made LOTR to fit into the preexisting history of the sillmarillion and hobbit. He would answer questions from fans about middle earth drawing from works later published in the silmarillion with no hesitation of any inconstancy.

“The Lord of the Rings was not not so much a sequel to the hobbit as a sequel to the silmarillion, every aspect of the earlier work was playing a part into the new story.”
-J.R.R Tolkien The Authorized Biography Humphrey carpenter Houghton Mifflin company NY 2000

“It [LOTR] is not really a sequel to the hobbit, but to the sillmarillion”
-J.R.R Tolkien letters 124


In letters 69 Tolkien did a great deal of rewriting as he found the moon was doing some impossible things based on the placement he had it at various days. As a perfectionist he wanted every last detail perfect and consistent. Many would ask him questions of apparent contradictions and he would find a way to properly understand them and resolve the supposed contradiction. In 214 he said of supposed contradictions “Facts that may appear in my record, I believe, in no case due to errors, but omissions, and incompleteness of information.” 214 shows the depth and level he would go to to resolve small contradictions.

“He says he has to clear up an apparent contradiction in a passage of lord of the rings that has been pointed out in a letter by a reader, the matter requires his urgent consideration...talking about his book not as a work of fiction but as a chronicle of actual events; he seems to see himself not as an author who has made a slight error that must know be corrected or exspalined away, but as a historian who must cast light on an obscurity in a historical document.”
-J.R.R Tolkien a Biography by Humphrey Carpenter

“His perfectionism....he felt he must ensure that every single detail fitted satisfactory into the total pattern.”
-J.R.R Tolkien The Authorized Biography Humphrey carpenter Houghton Mifflin company NY 2000


Some see contradictions between the published silmarillion [edited and complied by Christopher Tolkien] and the Lord of the rings. If we are to take them as cannon, than I think we need to harmonize any supposed contradictions. I think a useful way of doing this is to view sections of the silmarillion as traditions based on truth that also incorporate hyperbole language given their legend/myth status by Tolkien. Tolkien viewed elven written history [the sillmarillion] as legendary writings rather than the third age historical accounts. However Tolkien said in letters 130 “I believe that legends and myths are largely made of truth.”

“What we have in the Silmarillion...are traditions...blended and confused with their own Mannish myths and cosmic ideas.”
-J.R.R Tolkien

“Moreover my father came to conceive the silmarillion as a compilation , a compedious narrative, made long afterwords from sources of great diversity [poems annuals and oral tales] that have survived in tradition”
-Christopher Tolkien Forward to the Silmarillion

Tolkien's writings use hyperbole language especially in his yet unpublished silmarillion. This is not false, just a style of writing. Over long periods of history tales grow and over time exaggerated characters and beasts become more powerful than they were. The strength of the legendary creatures and heroes was exaggerated in the mythical/legendary writings of the first two ages. This is common today in sports today. When people talk of the "greatest ever" basketball player, or pitcher, or boxer etc over time they become legendary and we forget their weakness and exaggerate their up sides. We also tend to use language and exaggerate their accomplishments and often talk of them as the best ever. Yet even within the text they are often not as mighty as presumed. Often various times you will hear someone was the “greatest” or “tallest” etc.

“Tolkien uses profoundly figurative language – particularly when describing distant events in semi-legendary past.” -John Garth

How Powerful Were the Maiar, the Valar, and the First age Creatures?

Examples abound in the silmarillion of the results of hyperbole and the effects of tradition and legends coming long after the events. Where mighty warriors and creatures are exaggerated [this also occurs in LOTR to a lesser extent]. I think this language is used often of great creatures of the first ages. However there is also information that gives them a more historical/realistic portrayal as tolkien desired.

“A secondary world which your mind can enter. Inside it, what he relates is “true” it accords with the laws of that world. You therefore believe it, while you are, as it were, inside. The moment disbelief arises, the spell is broken, the magic, or rather art, has failed. You are then out in the primary world from outside.”
-J.R.R Tolkien quoted in J.R.R Tolkien a Biography by Humphrey carpenter p 194-195

“I wanted people simply to get inside this story and take it as actual history.”
-J R R Tolkien quoted in J.R.R Tolkien The Authorized Biography Humphrey carpenter Houghton Mifflin company NY 2000

Balrogs

Thoe numerous, Balrogs [maiar] were not even said to be melkors strongest weapons in the war of wrath. Dragons [creation of Melkor] were his most powerful servants and they were the most effective in the great battle. Fingor king of Noldor fought 1v1 vs Gothmog [captain of Balrogs and most powerful balrog ever] and Gothmog was unable to kill Fingor 1v1. It was only when other balrogs who encircled the elf king, distracted him, and this enabled Gothmog to kill Fingor. Previously Morgoth and his balrogs fled from Fingolfin and his kin.

Later Gothmog was killed by elven lord Ecthelion. Ecthelion jumped and wrapped his legs around the demon, driving the spike of his helmet into Gothmog's body. This caused Gothmog to lose his balance, and he, along with Ecthelion, fell into the Fountain of the King. Gothmog's fire was thus quenched, showing a weakness, water. Glorfindel killed a balrog with his sword to the stomach. In “of the return of the Noldor” Feanor for a long time fought alone against multiple Balrogs before being killed. After Feanor's sons fought off the balrogs.

"[Balrogs] existed in 'hundreds' (p. 170), and were slain by Tuor and the Gondothlim in large numbers: "thus five fell before Tuor's great axe Dramborleg, three before Ecthelio's sword, and two score were slain by the warriors of the king's house."
-The Book of Lost Tales Part Two, commentary by Christopher Tolkien on "The Fall of Gondolin"


Melkor and Sauron

“His might was greatest of all things in this world.”
-of the ruin of Beleriand

Melkor was the “greatest” “most powerful” and knowledgeable of all the valar the strongest beings outside of Eru [God]. Yet even with him we see weaknesses. He rarely left his strongholds out of fear of valar or the combined strength of the elves. Ungoliant the giant spider was able to match Morgoth in battle and he had to be saved by his servants the balrogs, and later lost the silmarill to Beren and Luthian.

Morgoth fought at least once when the high elf king Fingolfin challenged him to a 1v1 fight. Morgoth [Melkor] feared Fingolfin and Melkor did not want the fight but had to accept given the horn blasts of Fingolfin being so loud that all his servants would know of his fear. In the 1v1 dual the elvin king wounded melkor eight times including one on his foot that bled and caused morgoth to forever limp. Morgoth gave a cry of anguish and his nearby chieftains “fell on there faces in dismay.” It was not until “the king [fingolfin] grew weary” [having traveled a long distance to challenge melkor] that Morgoth was than able to kill him. Following the fight Thorondor king of the eagles, marred Morgoths face and stole the body of the king from him. Morgoth limped on one foot and never fully recovered from his wounds.

“Severely wounded by fingolfin and Thoronder in 455 and lost a silmarill to Beren and Luthian in 467”
-Robert Foster Tolkien's World from A to Z: The Complete Guide to Middle-Earth

Sauron, a Maiar, was Melkors mightiest and strongest servant. Yet Sauron was defeated by the large hound Huan [said to be the size of a large horse] a creation of the valar. Later Sauron feared the Númenóreans [men] and would not give battle. In the second age with extra power from the one ring, Sauron “wrestled with Gil-Galad and elendil [elf and human], and they were both slain.” In the third age Sauron was overthrown by a hobbit that was able to sneak deep within Mordor and destroy the ring after being fooled to attack at the black gate.

The Valar and Maiar

Valar were the strongest creations by eru. However it seems much of their power has to do with the potential for creation and not all the valar seem to be “fighting” valar. And in letters 181 Tolkien said they “shared in its [earths] making, but only in the same terms as we make a work of art or story.” and within the valar there is “beyond compare” differences in power.

https://books.google.com/books?id=4O...lowest&f=false

They rarely engaged in battle with any other than Morgoth besides the war of wrath in the first age. In this battle dragons drove back the valar and it was not a victory for the elves and valar until the eagles and Earendil [man/elf] came and saved the day. The “good” Maiar often were forced to retreat from area such as Melian in Doriath not from Morgoth, but orcs and morgoths servants. In Valinar the Noldor elves “thirst for more knowledge , and in many things surpassed their teachers” [valar].

“Eleven smiths of Ost-in-eduil in Erigion learned skills of forge and fire only matched by the Vala Aule the smith.”
-David Day The Battles of Tolkien Thunder Bay Press San Diego CA 2017


In Tolkiens letters 130 he said of the attack on valinar by men with the largest navy ever assembled on middle earth, “The Numen-oreans directed by Sauron could have wrought ruin in Valinor itself.” In the third age Saruman's army was defeated at helms deep, and his fortress and garrison was taken and destroyed by ents while he hid in fear in his tower. And ultimately, he was slain by Grima Wormtongue. Gandalf was unsure of his ability vs the witch king. Elrond was part maiar yet galadrial was the most powerful elf of the third age.

“Lady Galadrial....was of the Noldor and remembered the day before days in Valinor, and she was the mightiest and fairest of all the elves that remained in middle earth.”
-Silmarillion

Dragons

“Probley first bred by Morgoth when he returned to Angband with the Silmarills”
-Robert Foster Tolkien's World from A to Z: The Complete Guide to Middle-Earth

Many of the large fire breathing dragons of the first age showed vulnerabilities. A large number were killed in battles and the mighty dragon Glaurung was wounded by an axe in of the fifth battle. Turin [a man] killed Glaurung with a single thrust of his sword to the belly. In the third age the last of the great dragons Smaug was killed by an arrow shot from Bard. Likewise Fram killed the dragon Scatha. Ancalagon the largest and mightiest of all dragons to ever live in middle earth was killed by Earendil [ man/elf] blow with his sword. The size of Anacalagon most of all creatures in middle earth appears to have been exaggerated.

Ancalagon the Black: a case study
https://terpconnect.umd.edu/~jkeener...ancalagon.html
Dragon Scale- Why its Impossible to Size up Tolkien's Middle-earth
https://johngarth.wordpress.com/2015...-middle-earth/

Tolkiens Drawings are not to be trusted as an absolute for size of a creature that anacalagon is based on as the above links show. In letters 141 he says “the shape and proportions of “the shire” as described in the tale cant [by me] be made to fit into shape of a page, nor at the size be contrived to be informative.” In his letters 10 he said “the pictures seem to me mostly only to prove that the author [himself] cannot draw” “inability to draw” and “defective.” in 27 he said “if you need drawings of hobbits... I must leave it in the hands of someone who can draw. My own pictures are unsafe guide” in letters 13 he said “illustrations I am divided between knowledge of my own inability and fear of what.. artists [doubtless of admirable skill] might produce.” and his pictures were “amateurish” and “silly.”in 23 he said “I wish you could find someone to redraw the pictures properly, I don't believe I am capable of it.” in letters 9 he called his drawings “poor” and “small skill” that he had “no experience” and they were “amateur illustrations.” Most of his drawings of course were never meant for publication.

First age vs Third age Elves

“History of the elves, or the silmarillion...rational incarnate creatures of more or less comparable stature with our own.”
-J.R.R Tolkien letters 130

Since morgoth, balrogs and sauron feared the elves at various times in the first age, and since various elves killed balrogs and challenged morgoth, must the first age elves be more powerful than the third age elves? I dont think so. When the silmarillion speaks of elves being more powerful in the first age, it is referring to their collective strength. The elves had a larger population in the first and and their numbers dwindled over time.

In “of the ruin of doriath” the dwarves of Nogrod defeated the mighty kingdom of elves of doriath, captured their city, Nauglamir, and the silmarillion. They than were ambushed by some elves and the rest were destroyed by ents. In of the fifth battle men of dor-lomin and the dwarves of Belegrost won renown at the battle and fought the best rather than any elves. Many times men rose high in elf kingdoms and in warfare and were better fighters than elves. At times the best individual fighter in middle earth was a man. The eldar fled the numonrians who charged for battle in aman, tuna, and the coast of valinor. This is not surprising given in letters 153 Tolkien said “Elves and men are evidently in biological terms one race.” in 181 he says “Elves and men are just different aspects of the humane...elves and men are in their incarnate forms kindrid.”

Durins Bane

The Balrog of Moria known as Durins Bane was slain by Gandalf the gray [first age Olorin] the “wisest” of the Maiar. This account Is used as the best example of Tolkiens change in opinion on Balrogs over time from the first age balrogs to the mighty balrogs of the third age, Durins bane. I think this one example is given to much weight to force a contradiction between Tolkiens views on balrogs.

Soon before publishing Fellowship of the ring a fan asked a question of Tolkien in the letters 144 of Tolkien, Tolkien did not view the third age balrog as different than his unpublished sillmarillion view of balrogs. He said “the balrog is a survivor from the silmarillion and the legends of the first age.” He had attempted, and was attempting to publish the sillmarillion at this time that included the published first age view of balrogs. He always sought to reconcile seeming differences and we should as well. The balrog is the best known balrog and arguable the second most powerful [behind Gothmog] in the history of middle earth. His actions against the dwarves show this. He was one of the few balrogs to survive the war of wrath and escaped the valar and the imprisonment of morgoth. The balrogs of the first age were killed by some of the most powerful elves to ever walk middle earth and could easily have been weaker balrogs than Durins Bane. Also I think the movies exaggerated the balrog in appearance and power. He appears in the movie upwards of 20 feet yet the fellowship of the ring indicates he was not much larger than a man, and the sillmarillion another balrog was described as twice the size of a man, or around 12 feet.

“What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater…
-Book Two, Chapter V, The Bridge of Khazad-Dûm

"it pierced the Balrog's belly nigh his own face (for that demon was double his stature) ..."
-Lost Tales, Part II, p. 194

The balrog in the movies also had horns nowhere mentioned in the books. And he also had wings, a highly debatable subject. The real balrog an ancient demon, may have looked something like this.

https://www.google.com/search?q=the+...56YJ7ioARJbAM:


Third age power Increase


The third age was more powerful in a few areas. The emergence of mankind uniting under Aragon. Saruman's breeding of the Uruk-hai was an improvement over any orc breed Morgoth or Sauron could produce. Sauron improved a breed of trolls the olog-hai over any in the first ages. The hardrim domestication of the mumakil. The rings of power used by the like of galadriel, the ring wraiths who it is said in of the rings of power and the third age were “the mightiest of Saurons servants” and of course the strongest of them all the witch king himself. Their use of fell beats in the third age. The five wizards sent to middel earth. Gandalf the grey to gandalf the white. The army of the dead put into action. The ents uniting for the attack on isengard. The rise of power in Mordor are some examples of increase in power over earlier ages in the third age. The rise of the Numenoreans in the second age was a great increase in power over the first age.

I'm not sure what would you like to hear in response. Inconsistencies between the Old Testamnet (the Silmarillion) and the New Testament (LOTR) may exist on a close scrutiny, but I didn't spot any glaring ones nor you mentioned any in your post, like "The first book states that... while it is clearly not correct according to the second book which holds that..."

Oh, he is quite right as to the discrepancies.

When I was reading them I just put it down to different times and a lot of continuity editing -- stuff happens.

When I was using them to build my own D&D world, I altered what I wanted.

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Originally Posted by Gilrandir

I'm not sure what would you like to hear in response. Inconsistencies between the Old Testamnet (the Silmarillion) and the New Testament (LOTR) may exist on a close scrutiny, but I didn't spot any glaring ones nor you mentioned any in your post, like "The first book states that... while it is clearly not correct according to the second book which holds that..."

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thanks for having a look. Do you see any mistakes or disagree with any content presented?

One also has to keep in mind that the text of the Silmarillion was written over a 35yr period (1915-1950), and was not fully completed by Tolkien himself. His son Christopher edited the original transcripts, and added material of his own to fill in gaps in the narrative.

Not surprising there are contradictions and inconsistencies:shrug:

Hopefully, someday a trilogy will be forthcoming in movie form:pray:

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Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai

His son Christopher edited the original transcripts, and added material of his own to fill in gaps in the narrative.

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I doubt the bold. He was using what his father left. Sometimes not very accuratelly, but realizing the wealth and the disordered manner of the Prosessor's legacy, it is to be wondered that Christopher has managed to knock it into readable shape.

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Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai

Not surprising there are contradictions and inconsistencies

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The former - hardly, the latter - likely.

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Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai

Hopefully, someday a trilogy will be forthcoming in movie form:pray:

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What trilogy do you mean? If LOTR, it is not a trilogy and it has already been filmed. If The Silmarillion, it is not a trilogy either.

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Originally Posted by total relism

thanks for having a look. Do you see any mistakes or disagree with any content presented?

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It is what was in the books. But, again, I don't see any discrepancies. you just gave a gist of both books without showing that some concepts didn't match.

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I doubt the bold. He was using what his father left

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Not exactly:

http://www.worldcrunch.com/culture-s...lly-speaks-out

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First in England, then in France, he reassembled the parts of The Silmarillion, making it more coherent, added padding here and there, and published the book in 1977, with some remorse. "Right away I thought that the book was good, but a little false, in the sense that I had had to invent some passages," he explains. At the time, he even had a worrying dream. "I was in my father's office at Oxford. He came in and started looking for something with great anxiety. Then I realized in horror that it was The Silmarillion, and I was terrified at the thought that he would discover what I had done."

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If The Silmarillion, it is not a trilogy either.

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The Silmarillion is actually a quintuple tale: the Ainulindalë and Valaquenta; the Quenta Silmarillion; the Akallabêth; and The Rings of Power and the Third Age. The first two (the story of the creation of the Ainur and accounts of the Valar) would serve as an intro to--- the Quenta Silmarillion (part I of the trilogy...the story of the Silmarils); the Akallabêth (part II of the trilogy...the rise and fall of Númenor); and finally, part III, the Making of the Rings of Power and the forging of the One Ring.

A trilogy, yes?:shrug:

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Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai

The Silmarillion is actually a quintuple tale: the Ainulindalë and Valaquenta; the Quenta Silmarillion; the Akallabêth; and The Rings of Power and the Third Age. The first two (the story of the creation of the Ainur and accounts of the Valar) would serve as an intro to--- the Quenta Silmarillion (part I of the trilogy...the story of the Silmarils); the Akallabêth (part II of the trilogy...the rise and fall of Númenor); and finally, part III, the Making of the Rings of Power and the forging of the One Ring.

A trilogy, yes?:shrug:

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No, then it is quintilogy.

But I would not try to describe it by any term that would count the number of books it consists of. It is a compendium of narratives that never reached its complete form and was in constant tranformation while Tolkien lived.

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But I would not try to describe it by any term that would count the number of books it consists of

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I won't argue semantics. If The Silmarillion were to be done in film, I would suggest that the form I presented is quite plausible in "trilogy" form. Although there are four "themes", if you will, an entire movie based on the creation of the Ainur would be quite empty of two elements one would need to create a movie in this genre...mainly an arch-enemy, a hero/heroine, and a story to tell. But it would make a good intro (first 5-10 min perhaps?). The remainder of The Silmarillion has three very definitive stories that can stand on their own, that of the creation of the Silmarils and the wars fought to regain them from Morgoth; the rise and fall of Númenor; and the forging of the three elven Rings of Power, and Sauron's forging of the One Ring.

A trilogy. Three distinct stories that are all connected, yet stand on their own with a different tale to tell.

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A trilogy is a series or group of three plays, novels, operas, etc., that, although individually complete, are closely related in theme

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I think I've satisfied your criteria:shrug:

Would you guys agree?


The Time is now for Lord of the Rings Total war
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forum...?12-Discussion

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Originally Posted by ReluctantSamurai

I won't argue semantics. If The Silmarillion were to be done in film, I would suggest that the form I presented is quite plausible in "trilogy" form. Although there are four "themes", if you will, an entire movie based on the creation of the Ainur would be quite empty of two elements one would need to create a movie in this genre...mainly an arch-enemy, a hero/heroine, and a story to tell. But it would make a good intro (first 5-10 min perhaps?). The remainder of The Silmarillion has three very definitive stories that can stand on their own, that of the creation of the Silmarils and the wars fought to regain them from Morgoth; the rise and fall of Númenor; and the forging of the three elven Rings of Power, and Sauron's forging of the One Ring.

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If we speak of movie-making, there is no sense of making one about the Rings of Power since it is basically told in the existing movie.

And as for shooting The Silmarillion, it is so versatile in pace of narration, so extended in time and abundant in characters that the format of a TV show (much like Game of Thrones) suits it better.

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there is no sense of making one about the Rings of Power since it is basically told in the existing movie

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LotR is mostly about the One Ring, the three elven Rings of Power are mentioned only in passing. I doubt that most readers/movie-goers even know who created the elven rings, what they did, and who had them. That section of the Silmarillion also deals with the relationship between elves and dwarves many years after the slaying of King Thingol...the original reason for the falling out between the two races.

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the format of a TV show (much like Game of Thrones) suits it better

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I might agree with you here...

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

Oh, he is quite right as to the discrepancies.

When I was reading them I just put it down to different times and a lot of continuity editing -- stuff happens.

When I was using them to build my own D&D world, I altered what I wanted.

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"Lord of the Rings is more or less the foundation of modern D&D. The latter rose from the former, although the two are now so estranged that to reunite them would be an act of savage madness. Imagine a gaggle of modern hack-n-slash roleplayers who had somehow never been exposed to the original Tolkien mythos, and then imagine taking those players and trying to introduce them to Tolkien via a D&D campaign."

DM of the Rings

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Lord of the Rings is more or less the foundation of modern D&D

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More or less. Something in between that is likely. To say D & D arose from Tolkien's works might be a bit of a stretch, as there were a lot of other influences:

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The world of D&D was influenced by world mythology, history, pulp fiction, and contemporary fantasy novels. The importance of J. R. R. Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit as an influence on D&D is controversial. The presence in the game of halflings, elves, half-elves, dwarves, orcs, rangers, and the like, draw comparisons to these works. The resemblance was even closer before the threat of copyright action from Tolkien Enterprises prompted the name changes of hobbit to 'halfling', ent to 'treant', and balrog to 'balor'. For many years, Gygax played down the influence of Tolkien on the development of the game. However, in an interview in 2000, he acknowledged that Tolkien's work had a "strong impact".

The D&D magic system, in which wizards memorize spells that are used up once cast and must be re-memorized the next day, was heavily influenced by the Dying Earth stories and novels of Jack Vance. The original alignment system (which grouped all characters and creatures into 'Law', 'Neutrality' and 'Chaos') was derived from the novel Three Hearts and Three Lions by Poul Anderson. A troll described in this work influenced the D&D definition of that monster.

Other influences include the works of Robert E. Howard, Edgar Rice Burroughs, A. Merritt, H. P. Lovecraft, Fritz Leiber, L. Sprague de Camp, Fletcher Pratt, Roger Zelazny, and Michael Moorcock. Monsters, spells, and magic items used in the game have been inspired by hundreds of individual works such as A. E. van Vogt's "Black Destroyer", Coeurl (the Displacer Beast), Lewis Carroll's "Jabberwocky" (vorpal sword) and the Book of Genesis (the clerical spell 'Blade Barrier' was inspired by the "flaming sword which turned every way" at the gates of Eden).

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Quoted from the Wikipedia article on the origins of D & D.

Loving this thread!