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I've played the original version of Shogun far too much, my brothers have the Warlord Edition so I thought I'd buy it and see if we could work out an on-line battle or two over the winter.
Warlord seems much easier than the original but what's really killing me is the random appearance of the bad guy's reinforcements and the exhausting process of running all over the map playing whack-a-mole.
Is that the way it's going to be?? I'm going back to the old game if it is...
Matt
I've mostly played Warlord (well, Gold actually). While the problems you name are present, it also has the other campaigns and the new units.
I prefer the original, version 1.12. I find 1.12 a little simpler, with fewer units blurring the lines between the rock-paper-scissors formula and lacking the unrealistic Kensai and Battlefield ninja units. Since the Sengoku Jidai campaign is my favourite period the lack of others does not bother me. I also don't enjoy the Mongol campaign.
Mind you, if you're bored with 1.12, I would still heartily recommend Warlord Edition. I remember that the Archers are different powers between the two versions, though I can't remember which features the more powerful.
There's a patch to fix the enemy reinforcement issue and you can edit unit stats to meet vanilla STW specs. I'm not at my own 'puter at the moment, but I'm sure someone here will chip in the needed info before I get home. Puzz3D is usually a gold mine for that sort of thing.......
If not, I'll make sure to post up where you can get the appropriate data.
I think I remember something about a patch to fix the reinforcement issue but Google just gives me dead links.
Thanks for the info all! I'll keep playing but keep some forces in reserve for the whack-a-mole part.
Matt
The original STW was better balanced than the MI/WE version. In this latter version some new units were added and these units imbalance the game somewhat. Some other stats were also changed.
IMHO, the only real improvement that the Warlords Edition has over the original red box 1.12 version -- and I realize that at least a few people here would dispute even that -- is that building costs and build times have been halved, which obviously helps to quicken the game's pace.
That aside, however, I would still favor the original STW over WE. As Wilbo and Cynwulf already pointed out, it's better balanced. While units like Kensai and Battlefield Ninja are undeniably fun to play with, they really knock the rock-paper-scissors system off-kilter (to say nothing of being unhistorical "fantasy" units).
I think Martok is right about the 'fantasy units' - I like to toy with them now or then, but never use them seriously as a part of my army (well, the kensai might be stationed on a bridge). I've used the kensai as a roleplaying kind of character before.
However, those units have such a high building requirement that I've rarely seen the AI train more than one of them. And even that was only in the 1580 scenario, where the necessary infrastructure is already mostly developed.
Still, if someone could post the 'correct' stats, that'd be useful ~:)
Depends what are you playing.
Into single player much better is ... Warlord. More campaigns, some much harder (like Oda-Expert-1530). Into multi some people say that MI is inbalanced. I don't share this opinion but I was weak when playing STW multi. All in all I suggest you Warlord :)
I have both versions. I like the unit balance of original better. I like WE's halved production costs for buildings. Doubled geisha production time makes it easier to play Expert without having to deal with tons of enemy geishas running amuck during the late game.
Most of all, I like the additional campaigns that WE offers (1530, 1550, 1580). I've had Shogun since it first came out and play it more than any other game, even now. The standard Sengoku campaign had become a bit boring, and the additional campaign scenarios were and still are a delight. The Mongol campaign is just ok. I play it for kicks once in a great while because I enjoy using Mongol cav.
I don't trip on the "fantasy" units, I just don't use them much. The AI rarely produces them, so that's not a problem. I do use Battlefield Ninja, but only a single unit mixed with an army when I feel like trying to ambush the taisho, or, one "army" of nothing but ninjas (Tokugawa 1580 campaign begins with 9 units; I put them all in one group). These I use to raid, draw a larger enemy force where I want them, or to attack/assassinate a poorly protected daimyo or heir. I limit myself to the one group, and don't build additional units unless they suffer a lot of attrition.
The additional campaigns scenarios are what I like best about WE, what make it my choice over the original version.
For multiplayer, the Samurai Warlords mod for Medieval/VI is still my favorite.
That reinforcement problem is fixed by the ShogunWv1.02 Euro.exe patch. Unfortunately, that patch changes the two unit stats files, troopstats.txt and projectiles.txt, to something very different from original STW. If you want to play with something closer to original STW unit stats read this thread: Fixing STW/MI v1.02.Quote:
Originally Posted by Milo
Thanks Puzz3D, that's a good link. I'll swap my text files over tonight, to get WE 1.02 to STW v1.12 statistics.
It's interesting what you wrote about Naginata Cavalry:
I never noticed that Naginata Cavalry were a problem, mainly because I felt they were a realistic idea and they proved effective on the battlefield. The fact that they're the equivalent of mounted Warrior Monks is a little terrifying. I'll avoid using them in future.Quote:
The NC is easiest to solve because the problem is that it's a WM stat unit with higher mobility and armor that only costs 450 koku.
1.02 Monk Stat:Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilbo
Charge: 4
Attack: 5
Defense: 2
Armor: 1
Morale: 8
Cost: 500 (550 MP)
1.02 Nag Cav Stat:
Charge: 11
Attack: 4
Defense:1
Armor: 4
Morale: 8
Cost: 450
I'm not sure where Puzz copied that troopstats.txt file from, but I'm looking at my WE 1.02 file right now, and the stats for NC are as above, not as posted in the linked post Puzz gave. I think Puzz expresses his frustration over the 1.02 stat fiasco a bit strongly sometimes. The NC is not a monk on a horse for 450 koku. Close, but not quite. His point is valid, just a bit exaggerated in my opinion.
In Single Player, the NC effectiveness is countered a bit by the cost in time and koku to build the infrastructure required to train them (Fortress, Spear Dojo, Famous Horse Dojo). That hasn't been taken into account here. By the time you can build them, there are plenty of YC around and they counter NC effectively. YC trained at a location with an infrastructure that can build NC have +1 honor (+1 attack, +1 defense, and +2 morale)--when you factor in the spear bonus, they do very well against NC trained on the same level. NC are still decimated by any YS and can be defeated by Yari Ashigaru as well, provided the ashis have morale support and aren't charged from the flank or rear.
The NC is more powerful than it should be in 1.02. They were used extensively in STW 1.02 MP, particularly for their high morale, and were the most common Taisho unit by far. You didn't often see armies from any but the best players without four of them in it (the limit with a 4 max rule in effect). Their effectiveness caused YC to be used much less, YC morale being weak at a base of 4, making them flighty. Still, YC could beat NC in a head-to-head fight.
1.02 Yari Cav Stat:
Charge: 15
Attack: 1
Defense:2
Armor: 3
Morale: 4
Cost: 500
STW/MI v1.02 is not the standard. The resultant gameplay of that stat is inferior to STW v1.12, and evidence supporting that opinion is that participation dropped from over 100 players in the multiplayer foyer during STW v1.12 to less than 50 during STW/MI v1.02. Over half of the players left.Quote:
Originally Posted by Masamune
The troopstats I posted is STW/MI v1.00 modified back to STW v1.12. The nag cav is unmodified because it didn't exist in STW v1.12, and I've made suggestions for changes to its stat to make it fit in with the STW v1.12 stats. In STW/MI v1.00, the naginata cav had 4 charge, 5 attack and 2 defense just like warrior monks; same morale, higher armor and lower cost. The version of the game that Milo is using happens to be the unpatched STW/MI v1.00 because he has the random reenforcment problem.
The people who made the STW/MI v1.02 stat wanted to change the gameplay of STW v1.12. As I recall, I was the only one on that team who wanted to return the STW/MI gameplay to STW v1.12 gameplay, and I had many arguments with people on that team over this issue. In fact, the mandate from the player community to the v1.02 beta team was to return the gameplay to that of STW v1.12; a mandate that was ignored by most of the v1.02 beta team members.
Hang on, what team? Were you a member of Creative Assembly? Or do you mean the MI beta testing team?
The beta testing team, Wilbo.
Yes Puzz, you know I know all of this, and I sympathize and agree with the great majority of what you've been saying about these issues for many years now. When I read what you wrote about an NC being a monk on a horse, and then looked at my 1.02 stat and compared that to over a year of playing 1.02 daily online with some very good players and using NCs extensively, I had to disagree with the extremity of that statement. Monks don't suffer from a spear penalty nor all the disadvantages associated with cav. The thread you linked is titled "Fixing STW/MI v1.02," and there is no indication that the stats posted in it are actually modified WE 1.00. When I compared the NC stat shown in your post to my 1.02 troopstats.txt values, they didn't match up.
These guys benefit from multiple perspectives. You've got a very credible opinion, but you're not the only valid opinion on STW here. I stopped using my account with the Outstanding STW Player badge on it, but I'm still the same player. I don't know nearly as much about the mechanics as you do, but I do know how to play, have played a lot, and I think my subjective experience is credible.
Yes, a great many of STW's original online elite couldn't stomach 1.02 and left. But many stayed. I came along just after the change and had no choice but to play 1.02. With the rules in effect we managed to have many months of very fun, reasonably balanced games before the server shut down, and the experience wasn't nearly as bad as some of the old-timers made it out to be. I've since played some 1.12, 1.03, and 1.05 and games online--including the 1.03 tournament in which you and Tosa beat out me and Kas 3-1--enjoying all of the available stats.
All this aside, for single-player it's just a matter of preference. Players can play whatever patch floats their boat and make adjustments as they see fit. I'm sure your advice will be heeded, so no worries there. But when I see what I believe to be an exaggerated opinion expressed and heeded with no other perspectives being offered, I feel obliged to speak up. Thanks for the clarification on what that stat actually is.
The tactical gameplay of STW/MI is inferior to STW v1.12, and this is true in single-player as well as multi-player. You can demonstrate this with objective testing. Your opinion that it's just a matter of preference means that you don't hold an objective standard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Masamune
If you had played STW/MI v1.00 online as I did you would have seen just how strong NC were and that I'm not exaggerating at all. They were a WM with more armor, higher speed and lower cost. The spear disadvantage was a non-factor because the WM could take care of the spears while the NC avaoided them by virture of its higher speed. NC + WM armies dominated the gameplay. This combination was unstoppable. We had to chop 2 combat points from the NC in v1.02 to bring it into a better balance with the other units.Quote:
Originally Posted by Masamune
The title of the thread is correct. It's my attempt to fix v1.02 Why are you assuming that I would use v1.02 as the basis? The unit speeds are all wrong in v1.02. The v1.02 unit peeds damage the flanking tactics of infantry because the units move too slowly compared to the combat resolution speed. I hope that your not going to take the position that there is nothing wrong with v1.02. The fact that you had to use "rules" to limit certain units in multi-player shows that there are significant problems with the v1.02 stat. There were no rules governing army purchase needed in STW v1.12.Quote:
Originally Posted by Masamune
Will the warlord edition work on a vista system? It's been a long time since I played the game and I thought i's give it a try again.
It's hard to say for sure. Some people have definitely had issues getting STW to run on Vista, while others haven't had any problems whatsoever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Romanus
Probably a bigger concern, however, is whether or not your video card will allow the game to run. A lot of the newer graphics cards -- and the Nvidias in particular -- are notorious for being seemingly incompatible with Shogun and MTW.
You are correct. I try to balance objectivity with subjectivity in most judgments. There is value in both qualitative and quantitative analyses. We are humans after all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Puzz3D
I wasn't talking about 1.00 from the get-go. The original dialog that led to my comment was that NCs in 1.02 were "monks on horses." I disagreed with that, having played and still playing much 1.02. Maybe I wasn't clear in my second post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Puzz3D
It was the way my perceptions flowed from Wilbo's post, the link, and reading what you wrote. I didn't notice that you'd started with another stat; I just looked at the monk and NC stats and went "???".Quote:
Originally Posted by Puzz3D
Certainly not. 1.02 is flawed, and even the rules didn't completely address the flaws. But the rules made it quite playable. Despite its flaws, many players enjoyed many, many games over an extended period of time. This emphasizes my point about objectivity and subjectivity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Puzz3D
Peace, Puzz. I was operating on little sleep yesterday. Hence, my initial post must have come off more critical than I intended it to. Again, you are the unquestioned authority here on STW technical matters. However, you might want to consider my point about balancing objectivity and subjectivity. It might make it easier to understand those who tend to take the opposite view in discussions like these.
All the best.
hey i'm a new player and need some help i don't know where to go but i was wondering if anyone can help i'm on hard mode and keep losing cause the guisha's kill my dynimo my ningas can't kill them my question is: " does anyone know how to beat them or kill them my one ninja was a 5 kill and his chances were only 7% and he failed "
Perhaps you could kill their Geisha with one of your own?
Either use a Geisha yourself - that'll kill both of the units - or continue with sending in as many ninja's as you can.Quote:
Originally Posted by clanleader
If I'm going to spend my time playing a game, I want to play the best version of the game. I don't want to play the second best, third best, fourth best, etc..., and I'm certainly not going to recommend inferior versions to other players. I spent about 6 months playing STW/MI v1.02 online, and I found it to be significantly inferior to STW v1.12 in terms of tactical playbalance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Masamune
Hello Milo,
You can find patches here: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/local_links.php?catid=13
"does anyone know how to beat them or kill them "
How to beat them: you need at least 2 lvl 5 ninjas. One will probably fail, though that depends on the lvl of the geisha. Flood the province where she is trying to do the assassination with shinobi, and that will hold her off until your ninjas get there. Then......find the lair that's breeding them, send an army there, and raze the place to the ground!
Now if your like me and don't care for geisha, or don't use them yourself, then alter the building preference .txt so that noone builds geisha houses. That's what I do. Now the campaign is won or lost on the battlefield, not by some cheesy fantasy unit.
hello, the reinforcement that came with later versions really sux,
i tried the link patch but when i was to install it, it turns out it require the dvd which i gave away when i relocated to another country.
is there a way to get back the old reinforcement system without dvd ?
Not that I know of:shrug: Doesn't mean there isn't a fix.....