The Cassae Battle Line - A few questions (Possible Spoilers?)

[Vack07]

So I've been trucking along in my Cassae campaign, securing the main island of Great Britain. I had all of southern Britain conquered, the only thing left on the main island was Attuaca.

A few times during this war I'd been attacked by Caledonian Skirmishers, and I hadn't thought much of it.

I was looking to see what mercenaries were available near Attuaca, and I picked up some of these guys. Caledonian Rhyfelwyr. I had five units in total.

Let me give some backround on my army up until this point. To retain a strong economy, I never had more then 1300-1600 men in my main army at once, seeing as how I never was on the defensive (Except for those backstabbing rebel armies that attacked me early on). It was primarily composed of six units of Boatras, plus one or two units of Cymwyr (SP?) and a bribed unit of Kluddargos to add some oomph and stabilize the line at crucial points.

I have to say, I was truly impressed with Boatras. I was expecting a feeble force that would break easily when flanked or losing, like other barbarian infantry I had seen. These guys are rock steady, even with a lower command star general. They never failed to decimate the opposition with their javelins, and once in melee they always held their own. I can't recall ever losing more then 50 per unit in any given battle (at Huge unit size), with the average losses in the teens and twenties. However, they were horrible flankers, moving rather slowly and having no charge bonus.

So here I was, sitting in front of Attacua. I look in my mercenary window, and I see 5 units of these Rhyfelwyr units available. I say what the hell, I'll use them as fodder for the attack (At this point my Boatroas had become quite experienced, with either 3 copper or 1 silver chevron, so I wanted to preserve them some). Because of my strong economy, I had enough saved up to recruit all of them.

I have to say, wow. I remembered those skirmishers being remarkably tough when they attacked my capital, but this took the cake. They took a huge beating, and never wavered once, even though they were fighting their mirrors who were more experienced and better equipped. In addition to being rock-solid, they had a much larger supply of javelins to throw at the beginning of the fight, in addition to skirmishing mode, fast movement, and a huge charge bonus.

I decided to run some tests, putting a unit of Boatroas agianst a unit of Rhyfelwyr. I gave them each three copper chevrons and copper weapons and armor.

To say I was surprised was an understatement. When I let each unit get one throw of javelins in, the Rhyfelwyr won with an average of 20 men each (I was using 50 man units for the tests). When I let the Rhyfelwyr use all of their javelins, and the Boatroas use all of their javelins, the Rhyfelwyr won with usually around 35-40 men. When I let the RHyfelwyr use their skirmish mode, I could utterly decimate the Boatroas, usually winning with most of the unit intact.

This leads me to my primary question (wow, that took a while to get here). Which unit would be the best building block for my army? The Boatroas have served me well, but these guys are fast, incredibly hard to rout, and they have much stronger damage potential.

If I should keep the Boatroas, would it be better to keep some of these Rhyfelwyr around to put on my flanks, either to hold off calvary charges or to circle around and flank?

I've got a few other miscellaneous Cassae questions I've been wondering about.

What's the point of Chariots? I've tried using them like I would normal calvary, and they got demolished by infantry. I've tried using them as light calvary to run down routers, they were too slow to catch most of them, and to spread out to do much damage when they did catch them. I've tried using them to chase down skirmishers, and the skirmishers kicked my general's ass

When can I get Kluddargos available through my towns? The only unit I have currently I bribed from a rebel army.

Will I ever get any calvary?

What is the best unit to have as the staple of my battle line, beyond Boatroas and Rhyfelwyr?

Thanks guys, I know this was kinda long :\

P.S. One quick question I forgot about - What does the Conquerer of Caledonia trait do? My general picked it up after the battle in Attuaca

[LordElrond]

Well i'm able to answer one of your questions easily. The chariots are very weak if not used properly. It seems as though their best use is to charge through the enemy battle line closely followed by infantry. the chariots are great at disrupting their formations allowing your infantry to take advantage. Never let them stop moving amongst enemies, they will most certainly die. Always run them through. Hope this helps.

LE

[GodEmperorLeto]

When can I get Kluddargos available through my towns? The only unit I have currently I bribed from a rebel army.

Will I ever get any calvary?

Regarding cavalry--but I think someone mentioned in an earlier thread that either Britons don't get any cav unless it is merc, or they get ass cavalry.

The other thing I've heard is that much of the recruiting business is unfinished. Italy's got some major work to be done. I heard they are adding units, and Samnites are going to be recruitable in central and southern Italy soon. So, it may not be possible to recruit Kluddargos yet, until the next version of EB.

[Ambiorix]

I think that you are able to recruit one type of heavy cavalry (the Bhrinten or something), but are not supposed to, but are supposed to be able to recruit some mediocre light or skirmishing cavalry but are not able to. I think both of these things will be fixed.

[Reverend Joe]

This leads me to my primary question (wow, that took a while to get here). Which unit would be the best building block for my army? The Boatroas have served me well, but these guys are fast, incredibly hard to rout, and they have much stronger damage potential.

If I should keep the Boatroas, would it be better to keep some of these Rhyfelwyr around to put on my flanks, either to hold off calvary charges or to circle around and flank?

I've got a few other miscellaneous Cassae questions I've been wondering about.

What's the point of Chariots? I've tried using them like I would normal calvary, and they got demolished by infantry. I've tried using them as light calvary to run down routers, they were too slow to catch most of them, and to spread out to do much damage when they did catch them. I've tried using them to chase down skirmishers, and the skirmishers kicked my general's ass

When can I get Kluddargos available through my towns? The only unit I have currently I bribed from a rebel army.

Will I ever get any calvary?

What is the best unit to have as the staple of my battle line, beyond Boatroas and Rhyfelwyr?

Thanks guys, I know this was kinda long :\

P.S. One quick question I forgot about - What does the Conquerer of Caledonia trait do? My general picked it up after the battle in Attuaca

I will answer what I can, bt my knowledge is based on hearsay and and outdated version of EB that I was playing back in December.

Never use mercenaries as your primary unit of infantry. They create a dependance on soldiers that cannot be retrained, and if the mercenary pool dries up, you lose access to reinforcements. I learned that lesson the hard way, long ago, playing as Sicily in Medeival TW: I created a far-flung empire, powerful but dependant on mercenaries; eventually, when I lost most of them in several pitch-battles with the invading Mongols, my empire proved brittle, as I had no way of replacing the armies I had lost.

Charitos are supposed to ride straight through the ranks of the enemy infantry; scares the hell out of them. Once they are disrupted, send in your main force of infantry and break them.

Yes, you should get some light cavalry. You can also recruit one kind of heavy cavalry, but they are supposed to be located in Gaul (but take advantage of this anyway, because the Casse have it a bit unfair at the moment as they lack some cruical soldiers. Until the Britons are finished, they will be tough going.)

[Vack07]

The Rhyfelwyr are recruitable in Attuaca in the town, so I would be able to train them.

Is there another Casse unit that would be more effective as my main infantry force than either Boatroas or Rhyfelwyr? I fought some spearmen today in Ireland that looked pretty tough, but they're much less mobile and don't have a javelin attack, so I'm not sure how to quantify them.

[Ranika]

The spearmen in Ireland need fixed; they're supposed to have javelins and will be redone. Also, British units are generally low morale. Probably one of the best investments you can make is to recruit Cwmyr once capturing a midland province (there's a southern British equivalent in works currently). Certain units, like Cwmyr, and chariots, greatly improve allied morale.

With chariots, once you've disrupted the line successfully, bring them around behind your soldiers. They raise allied morale so much that your men won't break unless a real slaughter is going on, and chariots also lower enemy morale. Units like Cwmyr can be used to fight with their superior stats, but if placed behind your charging line, act like chariots (but don't lower enemy morale); however, if you let them fire at will, they'll throw their javelins into the enemy, though you risk hurting your own soldiers.

As for cavalry, the Brihentin are a mistake; not supposed to be available in Britain. However, there will be skirmishing cavalry in Britain soon, and there will be cavalry in Ireland to get. There will be continental cavalry they can get too; the best statwise will be in one of the Belgic provinces (a Remi unit that should be in one of the forthcoming builds).

The Casse are an armor light faction, but they've got some good units being worked on. They'll be able to get some axes later on (axes ignore half the armor of an enemy), their skirmishing cavalry, their new chariots aren't in yet, some Gallic spearmen in the southwest, some remade stuff, etc.

[the_handsome_viking]

I've had a similar experience while playing the Casse.

I've been really tempted to make an army of Rhyfelwyr simply due to the fact that they are so vicious in a fight.

Most of my army currently has been Boatroas with three units of heavy Celtic cavarly(which by the way are recruitable in the city on the south eastern tip of Britain, Vack07) I'm not really sure if I should try and go with more spearmen instead of swordsmen, but the Boatroas just seem so very...Celtic, the epic image of a guy in checkered trousers, with a cape, a sturdy shield and a longsword with dyed, spiked up, blonde hair just looks too cool, and because of this, gets recruited more...heh.

[Ranika]

The Gaeroas are better with their javelins, I believe, and more useful when fighting on the continent in some ways, because of the presence of cavalry. They also have an easier time killing chariots, and hold in a line better. The idea is to use Gaeroas to screen (they're cheaper to replace to, so more losses with them is less of a problem), and circle your Botroas around to flank the enemy, using everything else as support, pretty much. Skirmishers should be in soon, to screen ahead of all of them, and chariots and elites have already had their purpose explained.

[Vack07]

That's a good tactic Ran, but I'm looking at the units, and wouldn't Rhyfelwyr be much better for flanking? THey get a huge charge bonus, they're faster moving, better stamina, much higher morale, and they have more javelins to toss before the charge.

[Ranika]

That's a good tactic Ran, but I'm looking at the units, and wouldn't Rhyfelwyr be much better for flanking? THey get a huge charge bonus, they're faster moving, better stamina, much higher morale, and they have more javelins to toss before the charge.

They only come from a single province, their discipline is much poorer, and they actually were supposed to be toned down a bit, and will be, so no, the Botroas are a superior unit, or will be. Gaeroas should be used to fight in front. Also, why are they still called Rhyfelwyr? Damn placeholder names, no one cleans them up.

[Vack07]

At this point in time though, does discipline really outway the charge bonus, extra ranged attacks, movement speed, and moral bonuses that Rhyfelwyr have? What does the discipline really give you for a flanking unit? Sorry, I don't mean to sound nasty :) I'm just curious, because currently my army is getting attacked by Aedui and Sweboz, they're pinned on a bridge, and I need all the help I can get!

On a side note - How're the hammer troops from Ireland? I was looking at their stats, and they seemed on par with Kluddargos, with half the up keep. Would they be a good unit to have to flank with? They've got roughly the same charge bonus as RHyfelwyr, but they have much better stats while actually fighting.

[galathas]

I only use the hammerwielders against heavy cav and heavy infantry. They die to easy to be wasted as normal flankers. I all my briton armies i have at least one of those hammer units to pound the crap out sweboz ferulharjoz, equites singulares and princeps and triarii. Actually i found they can only be used when most of the enemy battleline is already engaged. Then i run them around wihcih is quite simple due to their speed and small unit size. Warcry and off they go into the back of the heaviest troops on the field. They are especially usefull when fighting heavily armoured unit with a high experience. The ferulharjoz of the sweboz can wipe out several units espiecially when they are expericened. But if you are able to pin them with cheap meat you can run those irish boys in their back and save a lot of your good men.

[Sarcasm]

I only use the hammerwielders against heavy cav and heavy infantry. They die to easy to be wasted as normal flankers. I all my briton armies i have at least one of those hammer units to pound the crap out sweboz ferulharjoz, equites singulares and princeps and triarii. Actually i found they can only be used when most of the enemy battleline is already engaged. Then i run them around wihcih is quite simple due to their speed and small unit size. Warcry and off they go into the back of the heaviest troops on the field. They are especially usefull when fighting heavily armoured unit with a high experience. The ferulharjoz of the sweboz can wipe out several units espiecially when they are expericened. But if you are able to pin them with cheap meat you can run those irish boys in their back and save a lot of your good men.

Textbook aplication of the Ordmhornaghts (hammertroops). They have armour piercing ability so that's absolutely good thinking.

[Vack07]

Ok, so let me put this army up for critique -

X6 Batarcii
X6 Rhyfelwyr
X2 Crymwyr
X1 Kluddargos
X2 Ordmhornaghts
X2 Socartes? (Archers)
X1 General

With my infantry being so mobile, and having such a limited source, and with it's cost, I decided to not train any cavalry. The total upkeep for this army settles at around 6000, which is [I]barely[I] within my economic reach. Would it be smarter to simply recruit x12 Rhyfelwyr? The difference is about 2 armor, but the upkeep is 70 Mnai less. It'd put a strain on my Attuaca population though.

Would Gaeros be better than the Batarcii? The Batarcii technically has better stats, however, it has 40 less men per unit.

Edit - The formation would work out as follows:

I'd have a long line of Batarcii, relatively thin as my main battle line. On the wings I'd have 3 Rhyfelwyr on each side, backed by a Cymwyr, with a line of Hammermen behind them, in reserve if they're needed. The two wings of Rhyfelwyr would be slightly behind the main spearwall. I could bend the spearwall in a U shape, if I was worried about being flanked. It'd be a simple matter to move my Rhyfelwyr and Cymwyr to a flanking position once they are engaged with the main line of spears.

[jerby]

X2 Socartes? (Archers)

I thinks it's pretty safe to say that socrates is not, and wil never be, a Unit in EB....
unless it'll be some druid-like figure with the power to persuade the enemy not to fight....

[Malrubius]

Socrates did fight in 3 battles, displaying bravery, and also managed to survive the rout at Delium. Probably doesn't qualify him for his own unit, though, as well as being over a hundred years before our mod's start date.

He probably meant Sotaroas, though.

[Vack07]

Thought I wrote SocaRtes :|

[Dooz]

Here's some advice. Don't rely too much on your island troops (especially the Atuaca-only Rhyfelwyr) if you have any plans of invading the mainland. You won't be able to train or retrain any one of these troops until you get a lot more inland than comfortable.

On the western continental coast and the surrounding areas, what you'll get are Milnaht, Mori Gaesum, Soatroas, Calawre, Ryecalawre and Leuce Epos. Don't sound familiar? Indeed. If you stick to the native Caledonian troops, it will be logistical hell transporting back and forth between the mainland and the island.

After conquering the islands and launching the initial invasion, it'd be wise to disband most of your army save for an adequate force for rebel patrol back home.

Here's the makeup of my main army, with which I conquered all of Western Europe along with the Iberian peninsula, and into Italy. After generating enough income, I now have two of these armies. I'd recommend it highly .



Here's the formation I deploy in.



In my current campaign, I've been going on a few decades of peace and prosperity. To shake things up a bit, I've put together a nice army reminiscent of the old days on the island, mixed with some of the newer troops.



This nice little force has been sent on an expedition halfway across the (known) world to Turkey, where the remnants of the Gauls are to be dealt with. Fun stuff, indeed.



-EDIT-
Imageshack didn't give the option of thumbnailing those troop pics. Could a mod possibly do that? I don't know how else. I hate to expand the page and whatnot.

[Vack07]

That looks like a great army, however, I can't train a single unit you listed, excepting the archers and cavalry. When do you get access to these tougher units? I've got my infastructure built up in several cities as far as it will go, I believe, but I don't have the heavy infantry, Kluddargos, or such.

As an edit - Do you find the archers useful at all? I've never seen them be much, if any use, compared to another melee unit, especially with the access Casse has to faster moving infantry, thus negating most skirmishers.

[Reverend Joe]

To the second point: I know that the Gauls used archers more for irritation than solid effect, but I forget why... probably a lack of a strong tradition of archery, due to their heavy use of javelins. No idea how much this applies to the Casse, but I would be willing to bet the same concept applies; however, the archers surely have a demoralising effect on the enemy- after all, showers of arrows coming from the enemy line aren't exactly encouraging.

[Dooz]

To be honest, I have the archers in mainly for variety and realism I suppose. I didn't use to have them in earlier armies. I suppopse it won't hurt to have a unit or two of them. After they've depleted their arrows, they bust out some pretty cool long spears with the new animations... I know probably not the best reason to have them around, but hell, they're cheap and somewhat useful. Preference really.

As for the Kluddargos, I'm assuming they're only available after 107 B.C. the current set date for Casse reforms. I think that's actually the only unit so far that's new after the reforms. Not something to hold your breath for as they're only available on the main island I think.

Other than that, as I mentioned, these are the units you will see once you get off the islands. You'll need homeland govt's for the Calawre (with the bronze scale armor) and expansion govt's for the Mori Gaesum (the phalanx unit). And of course the necessary level of military buildings. Before you get to these though, you'll probably be using the Milnaht as more of a main force. Ah, I loved those guys, but they're only along and around the western coast and it's a hassle traveling so far to retrain.

[Vack07]

So the units you describe are only availible in Gaul?

My biggest problem now is simply getting off the isles :| Currently rome is eating up Averni territory like cookie monster and the Aedui are capitolizing. I can't land an army without being attacked by two full stacks with a half dozen units of Gaesatae with 3 silver chevrons! I always manage to win, but by that time my forces are usually crippled to the extent I can't successfully besiege a city, so I'm forced to retreat to save my general.

Speaking of generals - has anyone else had serious problems with offspring? My second generation (four men in all) have had between them a grand total of one child. Only one of these generals has been out campaigning as well. I'm getting quite worried about my line continuing, as my second generation is now well into their 30s and early 40s.

[Dooz]

Offspring shouldn't be a huge concern. I think EB has toned down, or even eliminated in the case of some factions, any offspring to make it more dependent on adoption and heroic captains. If your Generals don't have kids, you'll eventually get adoption offers.

But as far as getting off the island, I'd say don't rush. Stabalize your home islands fully, get a nice economy rolling, then retrain and train a nice army to invade. You could look into garnering some alliances before the invasion though. See if you can single out a weakened faction by allying yourself with the rest of the neighbors then attacking. That also depends on whose allied with who at that point. Try to join up with the major allied forces and join the gang-up on whoever is left out.

Again, the best thing you can do is take your time before getting off the island. It sounds like Rome is getting pretty powerful, so if you could sway them to your side in an alliance, perhaps you can take advantage of the situation in Gaul. Weigh your options, develop some diplomacy and stabalize the situation at home before launching a full-scale invasion.

[Vack07]

Most of my citieso n the main island are tier three, with all the economic buildings, working mostly on fluff public order buildings. The main contention currently in Gaul is between Aedui and Rome, but it hasn't come to open war.It seems mostly to be a race to find out who can conquer the Averni fastest, but to be fair, they're putting up a hell of a fight. The Averni are holding onto southern Gaul with bulldog like tenacity, using the rivers in an excellent defense.

The Aedui have Northern and Western Gaul. Rome has driven a spike north through the Alps, conquering a central Gaul territory.

My main worry now is that if I don't act quickly, Rome will conquer most of Gaul, and instead of fellow barbarians I'll be fighting the sharpened spears of 3 gold chevron Triarii, without the nice units you've got in your army :| The Sweboz are mostly a non-factor, they're expanding mostly to the south east, towards Greece. Iberia is still locked in a death struggle with Carthage, but their military strength is much stronger than the Aedui, from what it appears like on my Stats graph.

There seems to be no territory to expand to at this point. Which coastal provence of Gaul do you think is most defensible, either in terms of ambushes or river crossings? I suppose it's possible to raise up a second army, though it would cripple my economy, and there have been massive uprisings of bandits on my home territories. I'm loving this though :) This is easily the hardest any faction has been this late in the game for me, in Vanilla RTW after 250 it was pretty much over, I'd have secured most of my home territory with enough income and population to create massive amounts of troops.

One last side question - Do you have any particular tricks or good locations for ambushes? They seem like a great defense tactic to me, considering the enemy is more experianced and with equal or greater quality troops, a situation like a siege or a bridge crossing has proven to be quite costful to me, in terms of men.

[LorDBulA]

Yep ambushes are great. When fighting as gatae i manege to ambush and massacre full roman legion.
Just park your army in woodland and it will prepare to ambush imidietly (general will knee).

[Dooz]

What I'd do is hold out longer. Rome indeed seems like a threat, but what is their position with the Auedi? If they are allied with them, they won't be likely to attack them while still at war with the Arverni. However, this will make it almost impossible for you to ally yourself with Rome and take out the Auedi. If they are not allied with them, it's still possible they won't attack them while at war with the Arverni. Basically, the longer the Arverni hold out, the more time you have to build up economy and troops.

Are there absolutely no rebel provinces along the coast? If not, your only option is to hit the Auedi with everything you've got, leaving a buffer zone between yourslef and Rome in the process. Even if their not allied with you, they won't attack if you're not sharing a border. If you're feeling frisky, you could always go further north and take some Sweboz territory to get you started. Once you've got a town or two there, make your way down south. This might prove more difficult than necessary however if a peace cannot be reached soon. Those bastards are relentless.

The first province I invaded was the one just to the south of the southern tip of Britain. It worked out nicely. That's where you'll have access to Milnaht for the first time. I wouldn't recommend buidling up a second army from the islands just yet. Maybe half an army, leaving room for the newer troops once you've invaded with your main force. 5 Boatroas and 5 Mala Gaeroas ought to do. Then you can add 5 Milnaht and some cavalry or archers perhaps and you've got yourself a supporting army. This will indeed drain your economy fast if you don't take plenty of towns and plenty of loot and if you haven't built up enough of an economy at home in the first place.

Unfortunately, I'm not much in the way of ambushes or river crossings. I've never actually even launched an ambush. I assume you could send in spies and check out the terrain, base your plans on that. I found sacking cities to be a great way of getting a lot of cash, fast, not to mention crippling the enemies frontline. After you take 2-3 cities and establish stable borders, you might want to look into that if the opportunity presents itself. After you sack a city, leave one cheap unit in there so that when the enemy tries to retake it, they'll have to spend some time sieging, giving you the opportunity to build up your newly conquered cities and take a breath. Make sure to destroy every last possible destroyable building. Don't worry about retaking the city and having to rebuild yourself. If you're not in a rush, the AI will do that for you by the time you retake the city. If you do have plans to retake the city shortly, disregard this paragraph .

[David_VI]

Very helpful thread:)

Subscribing!

And thanks wonderland!

[SpawnOfEbil]

Casse general's units are really, really, really bad. If you charge them through a unit, and that unit suddenly decides to target your general, say goodbye to at least 2 chariots. I was assaulting Wales, I charged my general through their ranks, cue cutscreen announcing my general's death.

I usually just walk them just behind my line to bolster my morale and get the enemies' morale down, although if you constantly do this your general may just get the 'Hates Blood' trait, if it's anything like vanilla RTW.

[jebes]

I agree that the Casse general units have a high chance of dying in any engagement, but that is far from them being really, really, really bad.

they can murder any cavalry you put them up against. Even outnumbered 2 to 1 against Brihentin, I think you could rout the enemy general without losing any.

They also devastate enemy morale and are the only way to win as Casse. You must break the enemy lines.

I think it just takes more careful use of the Chariots and not being afraid of losing some minor family members every once in a while.