New E3 video (handcam)

[Lord Adherbal]

What RTW are you talking about? Have you ever played RTW?

even tho I have no actual prove that bonuses/penalties don't exist, I've done more then enough tests and stat modding to conclude that even if there are penalties they have virtually no effect.
You speak about morale penalty for being surrounded. That is correct. But an elite unit will hardly care about being surrounded by lesser units, just gives them more opponents to slaughter. Even if they are "wavering" they still kill their opponents at a happy pace as if nothing is wrong.
This also leads to the problems with point 2: lack of a penalty for bunched up units: you can surround them all you like, but if those units are better then yours they'll still slaughter you. One of the reasons why cav spamming is so effective in RTW.

And about disorganised units, even if a shield wall formation is completly messed up with soldiers all over the place they still have their combat bonuses.

[x-dANGEr]

I don't know about their combat bonuses, haven't gone through the engine as you may have.. But I know that they drop like flies when disorganized, and if not, they kill no one.

@Battles lasting long issue: I remember my last MP battle before I travelled, I had my 10 Urbans VS my enemies 10 First cohorts fighting for more than 50 minutes.. (The game was on the largest size..). Why? Because no flanking/strategical things happened during the game, because it was a siege and in sieges it is so hard to do such things.

[econ21]

Some of the modifiers may be unimportant (I and most posters I've read have no time for the wedge formation, for example) but flanking is utterly devastating in RTW as in other TW games. I am amazed that anyone could suggest otherwise. It is the number one battle winning tactic in the game.

Flanking is particularly important to use against elites. Try fighting Roman infantry in Rome Total Realism Gold or gestatae in EB. Go head to head and you're in for a world of pain. Pin them with spears, charge cavalry into their rear and they can crumble. The morale modifiers are very severe, even when units have sky high morale (as in RTR Gold).

RTW has its problems, but in terms of modifiers and combat mechanics etc, it is pretty impressive, IMO. The problems I perceive on the battlefield are more to do with AI tactics than with the underlying engine. Some simple tweaks could go a long way.

[Lord Adherbal]

charge cavalry into their rear and they can crumble. The morale modifiers are very severe, even when units have sky high morale (as in RTR Gold).

cavalry, yes. Because their charge is high and they come in fast. The result is a lot of enemies receive the charge in the back ("defence skill" and "shield" bonuses don't count) and thus die on impact. Combined with the morale penalty for being flanks the enemy unit is likely to rout. But if it doesn't - thats when the problem arises. Even tho the enemy might be scared shitless ("wavering" morale) they still dont get any combat penalty (as in becoming less effective at killing or defending), so if they are much better then your units they'll still slaughter yours.

In S/MTW flanking was important because it scared and paniced the enemy resulting in poor combat performance and likely defeat. That's what I call realistic.
In RTW flanking is powerfull only at the initial charge (infantry won't do very good at that either). If you can't rout the unit on impact or do tremedous casualties so it routs soon after, you're in trouble. This also causes battles to end so fast: flanking is ment to instantly rout units (and as said before, a surrounded unit that routs is completly destroyed in a second or 2), not to decrease there combat performance.

[x-dANGEr]

But really, they still die like flees when sandwiched.. Attack a phalanx from the front with some infantry unit and flank with another, and see for yourself.

[Lord Adherbal]

there's a world of difference between a phalanx and another unit. A phalanx is virtually indestructable when attacked head-on, while they're actualy quite poor units. I don't see how that's a valid arguement.

[screwtype]

Surrounded units are annihilated so fast in RTW that sometimes I've been very confused about where the heck they went!

I remember one battle on a mountain between just a handful of units where I carefully maneouvred my one unit of cavalry behind the enemy unit, and charged into their rear. I swear, the entire enemy unit just disappeared in a puff of smoke!

I was still mousing my way around the battlefield, trying to figure out where they all went, LOL. That's happened to me more than once playing RTW. You don't get anything like that in STW/MTW.

[econ21]

Surrounded units are annihilated so fast in RTW that sometimes I've been very confused about where the heck they went!

Yes, I think that's one of the main advantages of the "guard" formation - it stops your men chasing off after routers and then getting surrounded and massacred.

It can happen very quickly - too quickly for me at an aesthetic level - but in single player, it does not seem so bad. The inability of the human to micromanage everything actually leads to somethings that simulate the real life confusion of war[1] and gives the AI a little edge to compensate for its follies.

[1] Losing units that hare off after routers reminds me of the English at Hastings for example.

[x-dANGEr]

there's a world of difference between a phalanx and another unit. A phalanx is virtually indestructable when attacked head-on, while they're actualy quite poor units. I don't see how that's a valid arguement.

I took the phalanx as an example, but didn't limit it to them. Try any unit..

THOUGH, if one note is to be said about RTW, I think it would be upgrades.. Get an urban, upgrade it to the limits and see how it strikes down hordes of units easily.. Annoying.

One game, 2 of my Sith mates were having a 1 on 1, and I was watching, I took 2 'Clibinarii Immortals' and upgraded them gold weapon/armor and + 3 valour. After the battle was done, WRE has won, and it had 5 legions left, I charged them head on and killed them all.. Weird eh? Superman anyone?

[Lord Adherbal]

Surrounded units are annihilated so fast in RTW that sometimes I've been very confused about where the heck they went!

not sure if this is supposed as an arguement against my "surrounded units dont get combat penalty" point, but if it is, make sure you read this

[screwtype]

not sure if this is supposed as an arguement against my "surrounded units dont get combat penalty" point, but if it is, make sure you read this

No, it wasn't, Aderbhal, and in fact I very much agree with your comments. It's the tendency of AI units which are attacked from the rear to just vanish in an instant in RTW which is what bothers me, but you've obviously worked out in greater detail what is happening here. I too agree that routing in STW/MTW was better handled.

[screwtype]

The inability of the human to micromanage everything actually leads to somethings that simulate the real life confusion of war[1] and gives the AI a little edge to compensate for its follies.

[1] Losing units that hare off after routers reminds me of the English at Hastings for example.

One can always find rationalizations for substandard game mechanics. The point, as you yourself have noted in your comment about aesthetics, is that the insta-collapse of units just doesn't feel right. Nor is it fun to play.

And IMO, this phenomenon is generally much more helpful to the human player than to the AI, so I don't agree that it's giving the AI "a little edge to compensate for its follies". I guess if you play without using the pause button it might do, but that is not my style of play, especially with RTW, where everything happens so quickly that it just becomes a frantic clickfest if you don't use pause.

[Lord Adherbal]

The point, as you yourself have noted in your comment about aesthetics, is that the insta-collapse of units just doesn't feel right.

it also allows you to role up the whole enemy line after routing one flank unit. In MTW, the routing men would not turn into sugar so they would atleast block your flanking unit(s) for a short while.

I also remember how cool chainrouts were in MTW (esp in MP ). You broke a flank and the resulting morale drop and routing unit triggered one enemy unit after the other to rout, until the entire army ran for their lives. Watching your men chase that huuuge amount of men was just beautiful. In RTW most of the routers die before they manage to turn around (oh thats another problem I need to mension: a routing unit turns around 180°, making the left side soldiers run to the right and vise versa - instead of running away from the enemy. result: the enemy walks through the routing unit and kills almost every one of them before they start running away from the enemy), so you don't get to see this anymore. But I guess killing 90% of the enemy army every time has it's "charms" too...

[x-dANGEr]

Eh! How long does it take 80 men to kill 30 'running' ones?