Merchants : how to (get 20,000 florins a turn)

[therother]

Well, if the numbers I'm getting after shifting my capital are the real deal, then merchants are an absolute goldmine. For instance, my 10 valour merchant is trading amber for almost 500 florins a turn, and even my novices are doing pretty well, well above the 7 florins needed to get my money back.

[Doug-Thompson]

Bump

[big_boss120]

For some reason I can used the merchant aggressively along with assassins yet my merchant squads still get completely wpied out by another faction. In my Spainish campaign I pretty much monopolized the resource in Iberia region + France region by taking out/taking over several French/ Port/Moor merchants from the beginning(Assassination does sometimes help if you get assassin's guild early), and most of merchant are about 4~6 lvl but then 2 Moorish merchant about the same lvl came in and literary ate my merchants as breakfast and everything I throw at them (including Assassins, I even have a lvl8 assassin gunning for them and yet they kill him WTH!).

One of the Moorish merchant actually got pretty high lvl hust by eating my merchants to a point where my merchant's guild had ask to be hostilly taking him over.(I did failed that mission since even I got a Master's Guild the merchant I chum out still no match for him)

It seems like for some reason even your merchants progress steadily , the AI always have a merchant who can just beat the crap out of yours without any trouble...@@!!

[Darkmoor_Dragon]

Capital London:

Level 7 Merchant on gold in Timbuctu - after loading the game, Florins per turn = 100

Switch Capital to Nicossia - income 500 per turn

Return Capital to London - income 800 per turn

SAVE game, -> RELOAD

Income per turn 100 florins.


HOOOOOOOOGE BIG FAT JUICY BUG


Well spotted Kobal2fr!

[Doug-Thompson]

Looks like the business version of the RTW siege bug has been found.

[therother]

Yes, nice to see you guys are getting the same behaviour as me. I beat my games to death to crack the mechanics, so I'm often worried that strange behaviour is a product of that. I think the actual credit goes to the guys over at TWC, at least they've had a merchant bug on their list for a bit. We get the credit for the workaround I believe.

Anywho, Timbuktu is a vertiable gold mine (literally: it has two), as well as two Ivory and one slave resource. Gold (20) and Ivory (12) are two of the high value resources, and two or more resources in the same province appears to double their value. Stick high valour merchants on them and you can make 1000s per turn just from these. It's also hidden away, only accessible from a narrow stretch of desert roughly between Marrakesh and Algiers, so the resources are pretty much free of bothersome foreign merchants. Get your guys there now!

[Slaists]

Capital London:

Level 7 Merchant on gold in Timbuctu - after loading the game, Florins per turn = 100

Switch Capital to Nicossia - income 500 per turn

Return Capital to London - income 800 per turn

SAVE game, -> RELOAD

Income per turn 100 florins.


HOOOOOOOOGE BIG FAT JUICY BUG


Well spotted Kobal2fr!

I noticed the same thing in my game: not that dramatic, but still. A wine resource in France (me playing as England) went from producing 32 Florins to producing 177 florins after I switched the capital from London to Rhodes and back...

[Slaists]

Yes, nice to see you guys are getting the same behaviour as me. I beat my games to death to crack the mechanics, so I'm often worried that strange behaviour is a product of that. I think the actual credit goes to the guys over at TWC, at least they've had a merchant bug on their list for a bit. We get the credit for the workaround I believe.

Anywho, Timbuktu is a vertiable gold mine (literally: it has two), as well as two Ivory and one slave resource. Gold (20) and Ivory (12) are two of the high value resources, and two or more resources in the same province appears to double their value. Stick high valour merchants on them and you can make 1000s per turn just from these. It's also hidden away, only accessible from a narrow stretch of desert roughly between Marrakesh and Algiers, so the resources are pretty much free of bothersome foreign merchants. Get your guys there now!

Just wondered, which one is the correct number for income from these gold mines? The 100 Florin per gold mine or 800 Florin per gold mine (after switching capitals around...).

[Darkmoor_Dragon]

Depending on your merchant - something like a level 6/7 merchant with a capital in London should earn around 700 per turn.

There's two gold mines down there mind you...

so expect to earn upward of 1400 using 2 good merchants.

If you save/reload with those same merchants your income will drop to 100 per turn each.

[therother]

I'm pretty sure that the 800 florins is the right one. After a reloaded game, resource value doesn't seem to be affected by where your capital is in relation to that resource type, which is what the manual tells us should happen. This was actually very useful for working out the base values for each resource (every cloud and all that...) After the switch, though, resource value appears to take capital location into account. I thought that merchants were good value before I realised the merchant income was reduced to just their base value when the game is reloaded (*). Now you can make silly money from them; certainly explains why there's such a strict limit on them (one per market).


(*) At least this is my theory: the problem seems to be that the game forgets to recalculate the "nearest resource of that type to your capital" metric after reload and then scale each resource appropriately. The workaround is to manually tell it to refresh/recalculate this when switch your capital around.

[Darkmoor_Dragon]

Its the higher values that are "correct".

Although as to whether the values themselves are correct is another matter altogether.

[Aenlic]

Another good suggestion for resource nodes is silk. There are two silk nodes near Baghdad and two near Nicaea. They can generate wonderful income for a Western European faction, if you use high value merchants and cover both nodes in both locales. I'm getting 500+ per node on the Nicaea spots, just for my Egyptian faction with a closer capital. Has to be much higher for a faction with a more distant capital. The trick would be getting your merchants there safely by ship without getting sunk by pirates.

[therother]

I've now got 5 Merchants down in Timbuktu (my capital is London):


3026 Florins/turn from just one province...

[IRPhydeaux]

Has anyone considered that your Merchant revenue might be tied to trade buildings and roads as well. It says on the map that roads increase trade, I think that means it raises your Merchant Profits as well. In Sweden I had people trading Amber for around 25 per. Then I built up on Sweden using the cheat feature just to check some things. I built trade centers, wharfs, paved roads, etc. When I checked back in on my Merchants they were trading for 100+ per turn. I haven't decided what causes this effect.

3 possibilities.

1. The infrastructure of the settlement of the resource.

2. The infrastructure of the settlement where your Merchant was trained.

3. The infrastructure of your Empire in sum.

Maybe someone could check up on this for us . . .

[Kraxis]

That sounds like you moved your capital at some point.

I was making around the same on amber, then did the trick, and suddenly I made almost 150. At that point I felt cheated as my old and grumpy merchants of level 9-10 were all getting close to retirement, and had been at that level a long time (killing other merchants early levels them up fast). Suddenly a rookie bested their overall trade in a few turns.

[IRPhydeaux]

Nope, no capital moving.

I didn't do anything other than process_cq a bunch of buildings in Sweden. I've played several time since then and the Amber is still at the high rate.

[dismal]

I'm beginnning to reach the conclusion that merchants are tough to use in the early game and easy money in the late game.

I'm playing as Spain and I own and can produce merchants in Timbuktu and Alexandria. I have packs of 6-7 merchants around the gold, slaves, spices, ivory and silk that are in SW Africa, the Nile area and Baghdad. When one dies, I just replace him locally. When a competitor shows up, I get multiple shots at taking him down and can quickly replace any merchants I lose. I'm making 7000+ per turn with relatively little effort or micro-managing.

I gave up European trading centuries ago. More competition and less value.

[Flavius Gonzo]

IRPhydeaux -- I think you might be right that Merchant revenue is tied to trade revenue.

I noticed in my campaign yesterday that the same merchant trading Sugar in Damascus makes 15 fl/turn vs. 28 fl/turn trading Sugar in Antioch. I guess there are a number of factors that could affect this, but my guess is that it's merchant buildings -- my building in Antioch has been almost all economic except 1-2 public order buildings, in Damscus I've concentrated on religion and militia.

I guess the other factors could be:

- Antioch is closer to my capitol (But not by much.)
- Antioch has a higher population
- Antioch has a shipwright, Damascus is landlocked
- There are other merchants in Antioch, but not on the same resource.

But I'm thinking the most likely answer is that Antioch has a Warehouse, Shipright, paved roads, a Merchan'ts guild and a market, Damascus does not.

Thoughts?

BTW, I really like that the addition of guilds and agents for economics and religion really incentivies you to specialize your cities. Makes the builder aspect much more interesting!

[Kraxis]

Certain resources (perhaps all) have single value and double value. Timbuktu gold is double, while Zagreb gold seems to be single value.

A lot of the amber in Poland and Russia also have different values, and the value of the amber in Denmark and Sweden is certainly different too.

It is all over the place, so you can't really be sure until you have made some experiences as to what is double and what is single.

[Flavius Gonzo]

OK, that could account for it. (Single vs. Double resource) I can't remember the exact values the Damascus vs. Antioch resource traded for, but that likely acocunts for it.

I'm at work now and without my map -- where is this legendary Timbuktu, Africa somewhere? And do you all reccomend capturing it or just sending experienced merchants down there? I'd be hesitant to do that, the Moors seem like they always have solid Merchants.

[Kraxis]

Timbuktu is the little oasis-like place all the way down by the border of the map. Go as far south as you can, then move towards the Atlantic, then at some point you will notice a little green spot near the edge to the south, I would say a good distance from the Atlantic but still close enough. That is where Timbuktu is.

It is hard to reach as you have to walk through a thin strip of desert going directly south. But you can make it. The location often means there are no other merchants down there.

The problem lies in replacing the merchants, and that is where capturing the town comes in handy as you can train your own merchants down there if you do. But if you are friends with the Moors and they own it, then better not.

[Nepereta]

Another small strat to use is to block various passes land bridges with fragment junk units stop enemy merchants that are too strong for you to take.

I agree with the points about acquisition.

Level up your people and then start using them aggresively. Don't build merchants in cities with high levels of disorder and/or far from your capital this encourages negative traits.

In an italian game for example I think its a good idea to build these dudes local twinned with spymaster capabilities of a governor + merchant guilds.

My only question I have is: Is the merchant bank going to help the merchants if you build the merchants in a city with a bank. I haven't quite reached the stage where a bank upgrade is worthwhile bu tI will check into this as soon as I can.

I would guess on as a realism note the banks should give huge bonuses to a merchant for obvious reasons. Because this is part of the evolution between a bloke with a caravan or shipping concern to a bloke screaming on trading floor gesticulating wildly.

[Shahed]

I've got some merchants down in Timbuktu now. My capital is Adana. Total revenue from merchants is 3800 Florins/turn. Getting there now. I've also sent the lower merchants to Venice where they usually find other lowly merchants to buy out, which adds approximately 3-4k Florins every 2-3 turns.

[gardibolt]

Timbuktu is the little oasis-like place all the way down by the border of the map. Go as far south as you can, then move towards the Atlantic, then at some point you will notice a little green spot near the edge to the south, I would say a good distance from the Atlantic but still close enough. That is where Timbuktu is.

There's a little bit of water at the very bottom of the map, and some ivory just to the west of that, where I have my merchant presently sitting. Where is Timbuktu from there?

[Darkmoor_Dragon]

hmmmm,

[Shahed]

Darkmoor Yeah I know that already.
I thought the distance bonus has already been mentioned and explained in this thread ?
My example for Timbuktu and gold and iron is for Turks, using Adana or Antakya as capital.

gardibolt Timbuktu is here:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Slicendice]

"You can get an easy 1-2k florins from buying out a rival merchant alot of times. You've also denyed the computer the income from him and made them lose the 550 investment."

The most I have ever gotten from seizing another merchants assets is 550 florins which is the cost of the merchant itself.


As for 20,000 florins a turn--BS. You would have to seize about 40 merchants to make that amount. There isn't even that many on the map that I have ever seen--not including my own.

Merchants are not worth the money. By the time you make back your investment they die. And if you manage to build them up you can make a little bit of money but not enough to compensate for all the merchants that died trying to get levels and all the time you spent micro-managing your merchants.

The most I ever make from merchant trade is about 2% of total Trade. This does not include farming, taxes, etc. so it's real impact on total revenues is even less. Plus I spend about 10 percent of each turn monitoring my merchants and looking for targets or predators.

Frankly, I don't like them. I don't care if I don't deny my enemy a little cash. the AI sucks and never builds up enough to beat me anyway so what's a little more cash in his pocket? It's just going to go to me when I ransom back his army of spear militia and peasant archers.

BAH!

[Musashi]

Really? I've never made less than 550 seizing a merchant's assets... Usually it's 1000, and ocassionally 2000.

That said, my main use for them is to make 1000+ per turn off their trade by putting them on the right resources.

[Kraxis]

Really? I've never made less than 550 seizing a merchant's assets... Usually it's 1000, and ocassionally 2000.

That said, my main use for them is to make 1000+ per turn off their trade by putting them on the right resources.

Yeah... I must say that I generally make way more than 550, and generally not less than 1000, I have even been near 3000 once (seems tied with the enemy's financial ability, higher = more money).

[gardibolt]

Thanks for the locator help Sinan.