Can you explain...Cavalry Vs Spearmen

[Lusted]

Now apparently CA doesn't want to set M2TW up the way I describe, and I mention it for those players who are expecting it to be the way I describe based on the PR for the game which is not clear on this matter, and even goes as far to claim that M2TW should appeal to veterans of the game. I don't know how that can be true when the gameplay isn't anything like the game those veterans originally played.

Or CA didn't get the balance right in the initial release, probably also caused the shield bug that seriously unbalances spears v cav.

In my chat with Palamedes it is quite clear he wants more of the RPS system and balance you describe, as that is what i've done in my mod, and if he didn't want that kind of balance he wouldn't be chatting to me about my balancing changes.

[x-dANGEr]

The reason I responded to that is because Stig asked me to.

You responded agreeing to it?

[Stig]

If the knights are on horses, the spearmen should be effective in stopping them.

I hope you mean Pikemen, and not the Sergeant and Armoured Spearmen. You try stopping a charging horse with only a 1 meter spear.

[|Heerbann|_Di3Hard]

Or CA didn't get the balance right in the initial release, probably also caused the shield bug that seriously unbalances spears v cav.

In my chat with Palamedes it is quite clear he wants more of the RPS system and balance you describe, as that is what i've done in my mod, and if he didn't want that kind of balance he wouldn't be chatting to me about my balancing changes.

But why it wasn't the balance right in the initial release and why CA has mentioned, that the strong cav charge is for the new player. They want to have flying men on the field.

[Stig]

But why it wasn't the balance right in the initial release and why CA has mentioned

I think Lusted would know the answer, but I think CA thought they found the absolute balance ... and Lusted proved them wrong

You must also see this:
People say the cav charge is corrupted, well I never felt that way, imo it was ok, I could live with it. On guard mode the cav charge is even perfect. Well if the Beta-tester think the same way as me you will never find that "bug"

[CBR]

I hope you mean Pikemen, and not the Sergeant and Armoured Spearmen. You try stopping a charging horse with only a 1 meter spear.

Most spears were 8-10 feet long. Why should a thick formation of prepared spearmen not be able to stop a cavalry charge? Italian pavesiers seems to have protected their crossbowmen just fine.


CBR

[Stig]

Most spears were 8-10 feet long. Why should a thick formation of prepared spearmen not be able to stop a cavalry charge?

Dunno if you have the game or not, but there are 2 kind of Spear units in it.
Spearmen and Pikemen. Pikemen have good spears and pikes, about 10 to 20 feet long, Spearmen have a little spear, max 6 feet long, and not very rock solid, as you have it in only one hand, one trust won't be enough to stop a horse, with a bit of luck you cripple him.

and if you were a spearmen (as they are in MTW2) you would agree with me that you would rather run then stand ground if 200 mad and wild horses were charging at you

[|Heerbann|_Di3Hard]

People say the cav charge is corrupted, well I never felt that way, imo it was ok, I could live with it. On guard mode the cav charge is even perfect. Well if the Beta-tester think the same way as me you will never find that "bug"

If you had played MTW 1, you would see the thing in another way. But the balance was also only one big issue, why I sold that game. At all I would say, that the mp mode is only in the game because it had to be in. I couldn't see any intelligent decisions, only strange compromises.

[CBR]

Spears seem more like 8 feet in M2TW. Historically they would plant the spear into the ground just like pikes did, to have a chance of impaling the horse. Even Romans were supposed to do that with their 6 foot long pila.

I would certainly say that pikes would be even better at scaring off a rider. But if any actual high speed impact happened there is no real difference as both weapons have same chance of splintering (some spears might actually be thicker than pikes). There would potientially be more pike heads to hit the horse and rider than with shorter spears though. If some cavalry managed to get into the formation, pikes would actually be at a bigger disadvantage than spears and polearms.

To have some clear cut difference saying spears would be slaughtered and pikes would not is just not historical.


CBR

[Stig]

If you had played MTW 1, you would see the thing in another way.

Ah well I never did, and I know someone who beta-tested it from .com, and afaik he never played MTW either, but I'm sure someone else did.

At all I would say, that the mp mode is only in the game because it had to be in. I couldn't see any intelligent decisions, only strange compromises.

That has been so in RTW too, this time it's even a little bit better, as you can now only bring max 4 of each unit. Tho personally I would change that.

I would make it max 5 cav, every unit over that will cost you more too, same for Ranged Units (Archers, Muskets). And for Art, but I would limit that to 2. Then I wouldn't limit Infantry as it's done now, I would make 3 categories, Elite, Normal and Weak. From each Elite infantry unit I can only bring 3, and a max of 5 Elites, before I have to pay more money. From each Normal I can bring 4, and a max of 8 Normal. And for Weak it would be 6 per unit and a total of 12 Weak.

I would certainly say that pikes would be even better at scaring off a rider.

Aye, I agree, I wouldn't even dare to drive my horse into a pike formation if I were a knight.

To have some clear cut difference saying spears would be slaughtered and pikes would not is just not historical.

I don't ... atleast don't mean to. It's just that those spears look more like a little branch I broke from a tree yesterday then something that would be possible to stop a big 2 meter high horse.

[pike master]

actually there are three lengths 4 ft boar spears for town miltia etc

8 ft for militia spearmen, papal guard and so forth

and 16 + ft pikes

[Kenchi_Shaka]

You must also see this:
People say the cav charge is corrupted, well I never felt that way, imo it was ok, I could live with it. On guard mode the cav charge is even perfect. Well if the Beta-tester think the same way as me you will never find that "bug"

i think the bug that is meant here is the "blob" bug. it has been reduced since rtw but somehow its still there and especially cav charges make it visibile.

I would make it max 5 cav, every unit over that will cost you more too, same for Ranged Units (Archers, Muskets). And for Art, but I would limit that to 2. Then I wouldn't limit Infantry as it's done now, I would make 3 categories, Elite, Normal and Weak. From each Elite infantry unit I can only bring 3, and a max of 5 Elites, before I have to pay more money. From each Normal I can bring 4, and a max of 8 Normal. And for Weak it would be 6 per unit and a total of 12 Weak.

i like the idea of having differnt restriction for different classes.

[Puzz3D]

You responded agreeing to it?

Yes. It's not good to make the RPS too strong. When the RPS is too strong, making matchups becomes the dominant tactic, and flanking maneuvers or bringing up supporting units to assist units already engaged becomes less important either because it isn't needed or because the combat resolves before the maneuver can be completed.

I also agree that cheaper swords should not be beating more expensive pikes. The sword unit should cost more than the infantry unit it beats. If pikes are going to be the strongest infantry unit on the battlefield, they should be the most expensive infantry unit.

I wouldn't rely on the tax on more than x of one type being the balancing mechanisim. The units should be balanced regardless of the tax. The tax is there to encourage combined arms armies, but that will happen anyway in a balanced RPS system. I wish we could get rid of the tax in Samurai Wars because it is not needed since counterarmies exist for every conceivable army composition.

[Puzz3D]

I don't ... atleast don't mean to. It's just that those spears look more like a little branch I broke from a tree yesterday then something that would be possible to stop a big 2 meter high horse.

It doesn't matter what they look like. CA artists make all kinds of mistakes, and I wouldn't want a graphical mistake to affect the gameplay. For instance, in MTW Knights Templar were accidentally depicted with a sword but they were supposed to have a lance. LongJohn reduced their charge bonus because of that mistake by the artist, and then he had to reduce the cost of the unit because it wasn't as effective as other order knights. Then the players were wondering why a unit that was supposed to be the most elite unit in the game was inferior to other knights. I don't think that LongJohn should have reduced the effectiveness of the unit. He should have left it as powerful as it was supposed to be.

[TosaInu]

It's just that those spears look more like a little branch I broke from a tree yesterday then something that would be possible to stop a big 2 meter high horse.

Spears are not 1m tall, horses are more than a head floating 2m above the ground. Spears are over 2m long wielded by a man of ~1.50 m and thus provide more than enough range to hit the rider, the horses head and the chest (the chest and flanks are a more likely targets, the legs for glaive like weapons).

I'ld argue that a spear of around 1 meter is already enough to kill off the horse (hit the chest). I recall images of Flemmish goedendags planted into the ground to fight horses. A completely different weapon, but acted like very short spears that way).

The rider would be knocked off then and at least have his coordination damaged for a while. Other spearmen in the unit will kill him while he's counting stars (spearunits have more men than knightunits). Of course the damage to such spearunits would be large: a killed horse would crush the impaler and the knights lance would probably outreach.

[Lusted]

But why it wasn't the balance right in the initial release and why CA has mentioned, that the strong cav charge is for the new player. They want to have flying men on the field.

2 words: shield bug. Completely messes up spear v cav balance, and the balance of all units with shields.

I think Lusted would know the answer, but I think CA thought they found the absolute balance ... and Lusted proved them wrong

Nope they did not like the balance, hence why Pala is chatting to me about balancing stuff i'd done for my mod.

[x-dANGEr]

Yes. It's not good to make the RPS too strong. When the RPS is too strong, making matchups becomes the dominant tactic, and flanking maneuvers or bringing up supporting units to assist units already engaged becomes less important either because it isn't needed or because the combat resolves before the maneuver can be completed.

I also agree that cheaper swords should not be beating more expensive pikes. The sword unit should cost more than the infantry unit it beats. If pikes are going to be the strongest infantry unit on the battlefield, they should be the most expensive infantry unit.

I wouldn't rely on the tax on more than x of one type being the balancing mechanisim. The units should be balanced regardless of the tax. The tax is there to encourage combined arms armies, but that will happen anyway in a balanced RPS system. I wish we could get rid of the tax in Samurai Wars because it is not needed since counterarmies exist for every conceivable army composition.

There I agree. Though.. Why must a Spearmen unit be 1/3 the price of the cavalry unit it beats.. Is the faster movement for cavalry really worth all that price? Even knowing that in M2: TW, basically with fast moving you will lose the effective charge that usually makes a cavalry unit so devastating.

[Chaos Cornelius lucius]

Massi,
when a horse is in a pack of it fellows, and one starts to run the others will all join in and damn anything that gets in the way. Add this to a trained and armoured destrier with a rider, and a horse will charge a solid wall of men and spears. Have you never watched show jumping on TV?, although some of the horses will balk at the walls, they are frequently rode into jumping walls there own height.
Luc

[Puzz3D]

2 words: shield bug. Completely messes up spear v cav balance, and the balance of all units with shields.

Do you think that's the only game mechanic bug? I think there could be more. A programmer has to go through the entire battle engine code and make sure all the calculations are being done correctly. That isn't something that Palamedes can do, and I doubt CA would even let him do it if he could.

Nope they did not like the balance, hence why Pala is chatting to me about balancing stuff i'd done for my mod.

You balanced your mod with the shield bug present. Of what value is that?

Why must a Spearmen unit be 1/3 the price of the cavalry unit it beats.. Is the faster movement for cavalry really worth all that price?

I said 1/3 to cover the most extreme case involving the best cav unit and a spear unit that isn't particularly effective against other infantry, but 1/2 cost could probably be made to work ok. It does depend on how big the anti-cav effect is. The bigger the anti-cav effect the lower you can make the cost of the spear unit because it can be made weaker against other infantry. The idea is to leave room on the cost scale to insert units that beat spears but loose to cav.

With a large anti-cav effect we've found spears at 400, swords at 500, 800 and 1000, and cav at 900, 1000 and 1200 works well. That spear is capable of defeating the strongest cav, but it's also easy to mess up and loose to that cav. The money allocated to each player provides an average of 562 to spend per unit. The ranged units are priced at 200, 300, 400 and 600, and there is a weak but fast spear priced at 200. These cost relationships, the unit stats and the gameplay were worked out by Creative Assembly seven years ago. We made some small adjustments based on feedback from multiplayer games played by top players to improve the gameplay, but that's it.

Now for a gameplay with stronger spears the price goes up, and for weaker swords, for example, the price goes down. If you had a spear or pike unit that was so strong that it beat every other infantry type and all the cav, it would probably end up nearly as expensive as the best cav unit. I suppose the gameplay could be set up with a relatively weak anti-cav effect such that the best spear is required to beat the best cav, but then you wouldn't want the best cav to be available when the best spear was not available. From a multiplayer point of view, you don't need many similar units of gradually increasing capability. All you need is one set of units that works well.

Even knowing that in M2: TW, basically with fast moving you will lose the effective charge that usually makes a cavalry unit so devastating.

Yes that's true and you wouldn't want to do that, but mobility is still valuable because it allows a unit to get into position faster. This reminds me of another issue with the cav charging mechanic in M2TW. Palamedes said there is a formed charge which is strong and an unformed charge which is weak. From what I've seen reported by players, the contrast between these two charge effects is too great. It's appears it's almost black and white. I think it's better to stay away from extremes like that in the gameplay just as it is regarding the RPS.

[Stig]

You balanced your mod with the shield bug present. Of what value is that?

Shield bug:
if the shield should add 3 to the armour it in real takes 3 of.
Well just change that value into -3 and try again

[Paolai]

also cavs have a shield, isnt it?

[Stig]

also cavs have a shield, isnt it?

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=76702

help yourself, open those HTML-comments and you'll see the different armour values in the second red column

[Paolai]

mmmhh...I miss your point. I just would like to know if also cavs have the shiled bug or not. Have they?

[R'as al Ghul]

I just would like to know if also cavs have the shield bug or not. Have they?

Yes, all units suffer from the same bug. All units with shield values will have those values substracted from their overall defense value, when in melee.
This means that a Spear unit with a huge shield (6 points) has those 6 points less than actually intended.
When you fix that as CA's Jerome Grasdyke has suggested, zeroing the shield value and adding half of it to armour and half to defense, the units play more like you would expect and actually correspond to what the in-game advisor tells you:"Charging your Cav into spears is suicide".
For Cav it's the same. As things are now, you're good advised to take only units without shields in MP. Lancers, Broken Lances etc. should be superior to other cav units in melee.

R'as

[Paolai]

thx for the info

[TosaInu]

Working around bugs, instead of fixing them, likely only results in other glitches. Unnoticed today perhaps, but lurking to destroy games.

I do not exactly recall how shields add to the defence combat in MTW, but they add only frontal protection to missiles. It does not add armour when shot in the back.

It was argued that shields should also have this property (frontal protection only) in defensive melee combat. TW games have this required positional information since STW, TW games have the required individual/unit defense value information since STW, TW games have the required have shield property since MTW, now with stronger CPU's it's possible to simulate reality better by adding one more switch:

if (frontalCombat and haveShield) {
defenseA= unitAdefense + shieldTypeDefense;
}
else {
defenseA = unitAdefense;
}

[Stig]

It does not add armour when shot in the back.

This is true, and therefore adding armour some where else won't work.

[Lusted]

Do you think that's the only game mechanic bug? I think there could be more. A programmer has to go through the entire battle engine code and make sure all the calculations are being done correctly. That isn't something that Palamedes can do, and I doubt CA would even let him do it if he could.

No its not something Pala can do but the other devs can do. There are some toher game engine bugs as well, but this is the big one, the main thing screwing up the balance.

You balanced your mod with the shield bug present. Of what value is that?

I used the shield bug workaround, so i have some idea how units should be performing. Of course my suggestions for balancing are based on a bugged game, and only Pala who is palying whatever the latest version of the game with whatever proper bug fixes can test to see how my suggestions work in that version of the game.

There is more i want to say but cannot, iam limited in some aspects of what i can repeat of convso i've had with him.

[Puzz3D]

Shield bug:
if the shield should add 3 to the armour it in real takes 3 of.
Well just change that value into -3 and try again

That doesn't work. The game doesn't accept a negative number in that parameter.

[Stig]

That doesn't work. The game doesn't accept a negative number in that parameter.

damned, would be an easy one