Vote on the final faction

[IrishArmenian]

Aleksandar, there is wisdom in your post.

[aleksandar macedonian II]

Aleksandar, there is wisdom in your post.

Lucky guess

[mayhem87]

where is that final faction? those two were released in one week after each other. If i start smtn i must finish it properly. Soon it will be death here if its going like this :F

[IrishArmenian]

We're currently dealing with a few difficulties. Those who were writing these faction descriptions and creating the maps are MIA...thanks for your patience.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Don't worry, things are heating up in the MA forums once again, and the vote will get going very soon.

[CaesarAugustus]

That's good news for a while I thought that MA was dead......

[Ultras DVSC]

I thought that MA was dead......

Nothing of the sort, we'll get into the swing of things very soon. Presentation of the third and last faction of the vote is planned to be published on Sunday as usual.

[Icefrisco]

oh my god, i got scared this was dead. no modders wrote anything at twcenter

[IrishArmenian]

TW center--If it is the same as my last visit, is a vile place in my humble opinion. Too much hate. Not a community.

[Kavhan Isbul]

Sevilla carved out a niche for itself leaving large cultural impacts (flamenco, anyone?)

IrishArmenian, I shall remember this great argument of yours when the next Hall of Fame voting commences. Whoever else is in the voting will surely get a vote from me, courtesy of the superpower of Seville, and its great cultural heritage. Nice work.

[IrishArmenian]

IrishArmenian, I shall remember this great argument of yours when the next Hall of Fame voting commences. Whoever else is in the voting will surely get a vote from me, courtesy of the superpower of Seville, and its great cultural heritage. Nice work.

You like flamenco? Or can I not sense the sarcasm?

[Kavhan Isbul]

You like flamenco? Or can I not sense the sarcasm?

I love the fact that flamenco is a more important factor in determining which kingdom in the Middle Ages was more important - apparently building an Empire is nothing compared to coming up with a dance. But hey, I cannot wait for the mod to come out - I can take an important state such as Ireland (not even a real Kingdom) or Armenia and try to rewrite history by stoping the superpower Seville from overrunning Europe with its invincible flamenco dancing infantry .

[Stig]

Personally I would love to see Sevilla and Norway. Norway because it will become my favourite factions, Sevilla because it will be #2. Can't you do both, which we download as an option patch, we choose which to install

tbh I wouldn't include Serbia simply because all the nationalists want it in, might sound harsh but that is what I would do. I think to most people Western Europe is far more appealing, ask anyone in the streets where Serbia is and they won't know the answer. And they know where Norway and Sevilla are. (Sevilla sounds Spanish, and Norway is pretty close to Holland, but hey)

[Rhyfelwyr]

I love the fact that flamenco is a more important factor in determining which kingdom in the Middle Ages was more important - apparently building an Empire is nothing compared to coming up with a dance. But hey, I cannot wait for the mod to come out - I can take an important state such as Ireland (not even a real Kingdom) or Armenia and try to rewrite history by stoping the superpower Seville from overrunning Europe with its invincible flamenco dancing infantry .

You obviously have only heard the popular view that Ireland was nothing but a poor backwater in that top left hand corner of the map of Europe, a completely disunited land filled with Rebels and petty kingdoms. You would probably have us split Ireland into Munster, Leinster, Connacht, and Ulster; just because you don't know any better. Ireland was a very wealthy Kingdom (and it was a Kingdom, all bar Dublin, which was led by Gaelo-Norse rulers), in fact you could compare it to the Byzantine Empire, on a smaller scale of course. The Kingdom of Ireland had a very distinct culture, comparable only to Highland Scotland. Ireland's main problem was the loyalty of its Generals. I'll need to get our Irish expert Conn over here, he'll set you straight.

As for Seville, it was the most powerful of the Taifa states. It has a culture very distinct from any other factions in MA, and will have a very interesting unit list if it becomes the final faction. Seville also played an important role in prompting the Almoravid invasion of Iberia, calling for help when invaded by Leon-Castille. Bar from filling in an otherwise large viod in the map, Seville would be a very interesting faction, and despite what you say was a very influecial state, that could have became the next Caliphate of Cordoba had it not been betrayed by the Almoravides.

[IrishArmenian]

Kavhan, wait until the mod is released before you whine. I am not the Iberian expert here. I was just rattling of an example. Listen to Caledonian.

[Kavhan Isbul]

Caledonian, I appreciate your sense of humor - Ireland comparable to Byzantium. LOL

I find it refreshing that balance is needed everywhere, except the Balkans and that the only bad nationalists are the Balkan ones - the Irish nationalists are great! But anyway, thanks to you guys PM2TW already scored at least one vote from me aganist your mod with its ironic name (apparently historical accuracy is the last thing you are really interested in) in next year's Hall of Fame voting. I am sure I am not the only one who feels this way, so keep up the good work.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Note the words: "on a smaller scale"

And yes, Ireland was in a way comparable to Byzantium. It was a comparison originally made by our Irish expert, Conn (and he really is an expert). He compared Ireland to Byzantium and the HRE, as although Ireland was a very wealthy Kingdom, it suffered mostly from the disloyalty of its Generals, and similar internal problems. Just like Byzantium and the HRE.

Hurry up and say something here Conn!

[Kavhan Isbul]

Caledonian, can you please enlighten me, how exactly Ireland compares to the Byzantine Empire? Perhaps Dublin was a Constantinople of sorts, with hunders of thousands of citizens? Or maybe Ireland bravely stood on the way of Asian invaders, preventing them from overrunning Europe? And it was Ireland that played a crucial role in preserving the cultural legacy of the Ancient world?

Common, you really do not want to turn this into a historical iscussion, because it is a debate you cannot win: Serbia and Bulgaria had a far greater impact on Medieval Europe than Ireland or Seville. In fact, I personally find the whole idea of comparing Balkan Empires with insignificent short lived kingdoms offensive. And the gamepley reasons about unit rosters and balancing issues make no sense either - balance is also needed on the Balkans and Balkan rosters can be just as unique.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I am comparing Ireland to Byzantium (Ireland being on a smaller scale), as it was a wealthy and powerful Kingdom, and it did have a very unique and ancient culture, completely unlike any other you'll see in MA. However, just like Byzantium, Ireland suffered from internal problems, disloyal Generals and the like. That is what stopped it from expanding and becoming more powerful. Do you not see my point? I am not trying to say Ireland was as powerful as Byzantium, but it was similar as a faction in many ways.

Obviously, you like that central European area of the map, and would like to see Serbia, Croatia, Bulgaria etc as factions. But its just not possible if you want to achieve overall balance in the mod. It's similar to when people argue to have 10 Italian factions, just because there were so many independant city states. Balance need to be achieved across the map. Not to mention that Serbia was barely a Kingdom at the beginning of MA's timeframe, its time to shine came much later. That's why we didn't include other factions such as Burgundy. They may have became significant eventually, but to have them as factions in 1073 when there were others more deserving of the slot would not be historically accurate. MA is about balancing historical accuracy with gameplay and a balanced campaign map.

Even still, Ireland is deserving of a faction slot. You have fallen into the trap of thinking it was nothing but a poor, unintersting backwater on the edge of civilisation. If Ireland had not suffered from its internal problems, it had the potential to field armies to match those of the Kingdom of England. As the player, you would have the opportunity to stabilise Ireland, and let it reach its full potential, which was massive. Should we not include the HRE just becuase internal problems held it back?

[IrishArmenian]

Ireland is only laughable to you because of the lack of translated historical documents that plauged Irish history in the past. However, I vaugely remember in the 1980's (?) many documents were found regarding medieval Ireland. The three crowns were very much alive at the time of the game.

[Kavhan Isbul]

It is your mod, at the end you can put whoever you want in. But just, please, do not try to come up with the argument that Seville was more important historically and left a greater cultural heritage than Bulgaria or Serbia.

Now for another weak argument, the one that Bulgaria and Serbia became regional powers only in the 13th and 14th centuries, respectively. The same applies to Aragon, Genoa and Venice, but they made it on your faction list. The bottom line is, there was never a real attempt to vote on a final faction, as you obviously have chosen to disregard any opinion differing from your own, Western-centric one. This is OK, but as I promised you, even if I never play M2TW I will make sure I vote for another mod next year when the time comes, just to hust your chances of winning. You simply do not deserve it.

[Rhyfelwyr]

It is your mod, at the end you can put whoever you want in. But just, please, do not try to come up with the argument that Seville was more important historically and left a greater cultural heritage than Bulgaria or Serbia.

BALANCE

Now for another weak argument, the one that Bulgaria and Serbia became regional powers only in the 13th and 14th centuries, respectively. The same applies to Aragon, Genoa and Venice, but they made it on your faction list.

BALANCE - a one faction Spain, one faction Italy, and five faction Balkans, would not give a reasonable historical representation of Europe in 1073, nor be a good gaming experience

The bottom line is, there was never a real attempt to vote on a final faction, as you obviously have chosen to disregard any opinion differing from your own, Western-centric one.

You'll see that statement is completely incorrect when we add the third faction tomorrow.

This is OK, but as I promised you, even if I never play M2TW I will make sure I vote for another mod next year when the time comes, just to hust your chances of winning. You simply do not deserve it.

That's just mindless, hateful talk, and there's no place for it here. You have nothing constructive to say and you don't like this mod, don't spend time on its forums.

[IrishArmenian]

It is your mod, at the end you can put whoever you want in. But just, please, do not try to come up with the argument that Seville was more important historically and left a greater cultural heritage than Bulgaria or Serbia.

Now for another weak argument, the one that Bulgaria and Serbia became regional powers only in the 13th and 14th centuries, respectively. The same applies to Aragon, Genoa and Venice, but they made it on your faction list. The bottom line is, there was never a real attempt to vote on a final faction, as you obviously have chosen to disregard any opinion differing from your own, Western-centric one. This is OK, but as I promised you, even if I never play M2TW I will make sure I vote for another mod next year when the time comes, just to hust your chances of winning. You simply do not deserve it.

I must be Western-Centric because...wait a minute!
I'm not the man to see about any faction west of Anatolia.
Now, I am aware of Bulgaria and Serbia, but the delicate situation is that if we include one, people will complain as to why we didn' include the other. I am all for having another Orthodox faction, but we only have a 30 faction limit (seeing as me need independents).
I wish my name did not convey my bias, however, bear with me. Ireland is also a large gameplay factor, to counter England becoming a powerhouse in the first 100 turns. They also have their own distinct flavor, and very few other mods are incorporating them as a faction. The great thing about mods is that there is a plethora of them, and each one has its own eccenctricites, tweaks, taste and personality. I suggest trying many mods, and rotating between a few to prevent burnout. That, in my mind, is the most enjoyable experience.

[Justiciar]

Tomorrow? We live in hope.

The only decision I don't like about your faction list is Genoa. What on earth is it doing there? No worries though. Every other bloody mod on earth seems to add it.

[Kavhan Isbul]

IrishArmenian, it is not your fault that there is a faction limit and that there are no different periods in M2TW and just one starting date instead. What aggravated me and prompted me to leash out at you was your argument that the main reason for not including Serbia and Bulgaria was their insignificance. Considering the cultural and especially the military achievements of the two Orthodox Balkan Tzardoms which dwarf those of Seville or Ireland, I just needed to express what I feel about you and your mod. My feelings have not changed.

[Cousin Zoidfarb]

BALANCE - a one faction Spain, one faction Italy, and five faction Balkans, would not give a reasonable historical representation of Europe in 1073, nor be a good gaming experience



As it stands before the vote for your final faction, iberia has 3 factions, italy has 4, scandinavia has only 1 (before the vote) and the balkans have 2

[Stig]

As it stands before the vote for your final faction, iberia has 3 factions, italy has 4, scandinavia has only 1 (before the vote) and the balkans have 2

And there you have it. That's a point for letting Norway in, as otherwise the Danes can have a great time expanding easely. And if they attack HRE the way will be open for anyone of them. I know little about the cultures of Medieval history, I only know something about things as tools, weapons, houses etc (as I study Archaeology), but I can tell you. If we want to find something interesting, that is interesting for the rest of the world, we prefer to dig in Ireland then in Serbia.

[Ultras DVSC]

Seeing this, i'm really looking forward to the welcome of the last faction...

[El-Wrongo]

Beeing a Norwegian I think I should just mention that Norway is a most worthy candidate for this role.

Norway was very importent in northern europe and England, especially in the 10th and 11th century. King Magnus the first (aka the good) was king of both Norway (1035) and Denmark (1042) until he died in 1047.

Magnus the first was the son of our patron saint, King Olaf Digre/Den Hellige (Olaf the stout / the holy). Who died at the battle of Sticklestad.

One of the most famous varangian guards was Harald Harada (hard ruler). He became the comander of the varangian guard, fighting in several battles and sieges in Africa and Italy untill he returned to Norway to become a co-ruler with Magnus the first (Harald was his Uncle and had claim to the throne).

The largest weakness of the norwegians was our lack of cavalry, but inside Norway that was negotiable, because of our nature. The Norwegian armies mostly consisted of farmers and their guards men (they was kind of like the swiss when on campaign), bandits (as in the Battle of Sticklestad) meaning that there was very few full time soldiers and mercenaries. The only full time soldiers was the kings guard (hird). Norway did however have a very good naval and trading tradition, and long ships sailed as far as Greenland, Jersusalem, Constantinopel and even America. Besides the achivements of the vikings, Norway have always had good seamen, as seen in the Dano-Norwegian navy, and the Norwegian Trade fleet in WW2.

Norway did take part in the crusades, among our partisipants was Sigurd Jorsalfarer (Jerusalems farer) I am not sure in wich grade we partisipated but at least we were there ). We had a good relationship with sweden, and many kings in exile have hidden in sweden.

Among the specially interesting things about Norway as a faction, is the opertunity for special units, like Birkebeinere (Birch legs), Berserkers (Organised Berzerker bands disapered around 1100 after they was outlawed, but they are in the timeframe of the mod, and the kings often had warriors at least called berserkers in their hird), bandits, Freefarmers and even other exotic types of warriors (altough freefarmers can't really be called exotic).

One of the modders mentioned earlier in this thread that this mods goal was to teach people something about history as well as beeing fun and balanced, and IMHO Norway will achive this better than Sevilla, because it gives people the chance to see a unique and somewhat diffrent faction (not as unique as the mongols, but seen among western nations...).

Anyways, this is my attempt to tell people why Norway should get the last nation slot.

[alpaca]

Let me add a comment;

There are a lot of factions and only few of them deserve to be there...
Kingdom of Ireland?
Lesser Armenia?
Sultanate of RuM (Anatolian Seljuks u mean, trying to make us RUMS now?)

We'have wroten the history on this land with our BLOOD, now u want to erase it with your fingers?
We have a lot of pressure on us to make us "surrender" tu EU..
But, as Churchill said "WE'll never surrender" as Turkish patriots...

"Surrender" to the EU? Yeah, whatever...
Please try to back up your statements with sensible arguments instead of showing everyone how "open-minded" and "tolerant" you are.