Mafia VII: Shadows of the Mafia [Concluded]

[Stig]

Meh, atleast I got you right as mafia ... thank god that was an inactive round

[Pannonian]

Actually, I'm the one who started the crappy running story.

Ack. I thought it was CR since he witnessed Kommo's similar story in M3. Could you or CR provide a writeup for this game, or a link to an outside forum where you discussed the game?

[woad&fangs]

Ack. I thought it was CR since he witnessed Kommo's similar story in M3. Could you or CR provide a writeup for this game, or a link to an outside forum where you discussed the game?

Sure, I'll provide a writeup for the game. Truthfully, we didn't talk a whole lot. One of us would provide 2 people we want dead and the other would choose one of them to kill. That was really about it. We didn't talk at all during the first night phase. And of course there is the Sasaki kill where I told him I was going to kill Sasaki no matter what and just ignored his advice not to. Also, don't forget that anyone can read the old mafia games.

Edit: out of curiosity, GH, why do you view old mafia games before you post the kill scenes? I got into the bad habit of viewing peoples profiles.(like the exchange between me and Ichigo)

[Pannonian]

Sure, I'll provide a writeup for the game. Truthfully, we didn't talk a whole lot. One of us would provide 2 people we want dead and the other would choose one of them to kill. That was really about it. We didn't talk at all during the first night phase. And of course there is the Sasaki kill where I told him I was going to kill Sasaki no matter what and just ignored his advice not to. Also, don't forget that anyone can read the old mafia games.

Just giving us your thoughts and reactions round by round would be enough of a story. It must have been suspenseful, not to mention amusing, watching the town accusing and lynching each other like mad. Tell us in your writeup how you felt watching this unfold.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Mafia vs mafia is a meaningless distinction

[Beefy187]

Who own me money?

Now you all know that im never mafia

[Tratorix]

Well, I didn't see that one coming. Congrats to Crazed Rabbit and Waldinger on a game well played.

Also, my apologies to Roadkill, for pushing for his lynching and not believing him about CR's guilt.

[Sigurd]

Informal poll.

While you guys are waiting, why not post here your predictions and guesses on who the two mafiosi are?

Well well, So you know for a fact that Kage or Kommo was not Mafia?
But you got killed by the mafia.. If you were the detective then woad&fangs were a mafioso.
The other is then either RoadKill or CR ... My gut said that RoadKill was not.

Then my bet would be woad&fangs and CR

So do I win a price for guessing the two mafiosi right?

And we should all thank Ichigo for Lynching that treacherous detective.

Good game W&F... you fooled me. a little too late. And CR... You know this honesty business is now over. Finally!! You have the mark of Cain now like the rest of us.

[Beefy187]

I thought that CRs statement was little wierd. But i didnt want to be soo picky.

Well played mafia and thanks for excellent game GH I liked the second half where there was lots of long ass arguement going on. It was very intense.

[Pannonian]

So do I win a price for guessing the two mafiosi right?

Not when you do it that late in the day. I should win a prize for correctly deducing the mix of the 2 mafiosi, and for pushing for Rabbit (the surviving mafioso) long before the rest of you twigged. If only you lot had listened to me...

Headless ghost wanders into the night, moaning "Where is my head?"

[Tiberius of the Drake]

I KNEW I was right. ah well. nicely played Mafia. especially Cr

*note to self; Cr=good mafia*

[Sigurd]

Not when you do it that late in the day. I should win a prize for correctly deducing the mix of the 2 mafiosi, and for pushing for Rabbit (the surviving mafioso) long before the rest of you twigged. If only you lot had listened to me...

Headless ghost wanders into the night, moaning "Where is my head?"

Well as I said in the game... I would let CR win the game if he were lying. The reputation had to go someday.

[Crazed Rabbit]

BwahahaHAhaha!

Mafia vs mafia is a meaningless distinction

Not according to Merriam Webster:

Mafia
2 entries found for Mafia.
To select an entry, click on it.

Main Entry: Ma·fia
Pronunciation: 'mä-fE-&, 'ma-
Function: noun
Etymology: Mafia, Maffia, a Sicilian secret criminal society, from Italian dialect (Sicily), probably from mafiusu
1 a : a secret criminal society of Sicily or Italy b : a similarly conceived criminal organization in the United States; also : a similar organization elsewhere c : a criminal organization associated with a particular traffic
2 often not capitalized : a group of people likened to the Mafia; especially : a group of people of similar interests or backgrounds prominent in a particular field or enterprise : CLIQUE

I'd be lying if I said I was in the mafia.



Don't blame me for your inadequate questioning.

Why do you think I wanted Kommodus to ask a question instead of just writing a statement myself? Did I not ignore what Sasaki wanted me to swear? Did I ever swear I was innocent?

Synopsis:
I was excited about being chosen as mafia for this game.

However, I was also worried. I had snaked through as mafia with the Truth intact in Attack of the MacSobers, where Kommodus had spotted me, so I knew I had to come up with something that would deceive the town.

Throughout the game our general strategy was to kill off those who weren't getting suspicion but weren't going to get WoG'd. Worked out pretty well, and even Sasaki didn't do much to harm us after we killed him.

W&F got lynched in a situation we could have avoided, but by then Sigurd thought he was the detective and that feeling seemed to spread.

After I got questioned and convinced you guys I wasn't in the mafia, I just coasted to victory, really.

CR

[seireikhaan]

CR, I humbly request that you change your username to Lord of Loopholes, or else, Grand Snake Who Can Never Be Trusted. Good game anyways.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

haha, that's sweet. Amazing that you've gotten around it twice now.

[Kommodus]

Well, good game guys. Great game, Crazed Rabbit and woad&fangs. You both did an incredibly good job, and have won a well-deserved victory!

That said, it's time to review my own reasoning to figure out where I went wrong.

First of all, the easy question: why couldn't I detect woad&fangs using Holmes?

Part of the answer is that he was a new player who had played few games. He had left some benchmarks in earlier games, but those games were less active on the whole and not directly comparable to this one; also, he hadn't been mafia in either. (This is significant because, in Mafia VI, I got Andres even though he only had two games under his belt at the time - but he had been guilty in one.) Therefore, even though there were some statistical differences with his behavior, I failed to recognize them as significant. Other than that it was a simple failure of my subjective analysis: I didn't correctly interpret the meaning of his posts. Maybe I didn't look closely enough. It doesn't matter; one way or another I got it wrong.

The harder failure to analyse is my failure to identify Crazed Rabbit.

One one hand, it's much easier to identify reasons for this failure. I never even used Holmes on CR. What would be the point, I reasoned? His innocence or guilt can be easily determined - simply force him to break out The Truth. If he refuses to do this in a satisfactory manner, you know you've found your man. I had followed MacSobers and easily determined that CR was guilty, so I assumed I'd be able to do it in this game as well.

However, the slippery Rabbit felt he had a way out, using an extremely small loophole - the difference between "Mafia" (capitalized) and "mafia" (uncapitalized). Therefore he felt he could make statements like this and still leave The Truth intact:

No, I am not in the mafia.

Like my fellow townies, I hate the mafia and all their evil acts, I want to see them dead, and I swear this to be true.

I hate the mafia and all their evil acts, I want to see the mafia dead, and I swear this to be true.

I, Crazed Rabbit, swear I am not in the mafia.

I swear all this to be true.

So, what is my judgement on this? Did he successfully fool us all and leave his stainless reputation for honesty intact?

Sorry, Crazed Rabbit, but my answer is no. The Truth has, for me, forever ceased to be a factor. This has been the last game in which I will trust your attempts to use it.

Why do I say this? Technically, your argument may have some merit - the dictionary apparently does contain the two entries you quoted. But alas, it's all smoke and mirrors. In the context of this game, when we say "mafia" it's clearly understood what is meant, with no room for ambiguity - whether we capitalize it or not.

I therefore judge the loophole you used to be completely irrelevant. If the statements you made, which I quoted above, are to be judged ambiguous, then nothing you say can be interpreted with any degree of certainty. You could even state "I swear to be an innocent townsperson" and still find some way out. I don't know how - perhaps by using alternate definitions for "innocent" and "townsperson" - but I'm quite sure you could do it. Or maybe you'd simply explain that you never swore the statement to be true. It wouldn't matter, since The Truth apparently has an infinite number of caveats, which allow you to say what you will in whatever way you choose to say it, and still claim that you never lied.

So in the end I'm not as dissatisfied with the outcome of the game as I thought I would be. I really was completely baffled for most of the game, as all the suspects I was examining kept appearing innocent. I really did think I had Xiahou properly figured, but with Pannonian and Brave_Sir_Robin I was frustrated and grasping at straws. The defeat by Crazed Rabbit isn't a big deal to me because, realistically, there's no way I could've figured him out. He won the game, but he's forever lost his super power - The Truth no longer exists. To have that removed as a factor in future games... actually feels kind of good.

So once again, great game by everyone. Good efforts by the townspeople, especially those who figured out woad&fangs. And fantastic gameplay by both of the mafia. Crazed Rabbit, you got your vengeance - albeit at the cost of your reputation. I hope it was worth it. And finally, excellent hosting by GeneralHankerchief. Another thrilling, suspenseful, and challenging game, brilliantly hosted.

Signing off,
-K

[RoadKill]

I would like to say i TOLD YOU SO.
Good game mafia.

[Kommodus]

I would like to say i TOLD YOU SO.
Good game mafia.

No dice, RoadKill. You were going after me and CR - but mostly me by far - for the last 4 or 5 rounds. Your votes were all for me, not CR. By the end you had decided that CR was innocent. So you don't get the privilege of saying "I told you so" - you were wrong just like the rest of us.

[Xiahou]

Not according to Merriam Webster:



I'd be lying if I said I was in the mafia.

Well, while we're being technical- the rules refer to "mafia" not "Mafia". Did your role PM capitalize Mafia? Probably not. In that case, you were in the "mafia", not the "Mafia".

No matter, as Kommodus says, 'The Truth' is no longer a factor- technicality or not. Good game everyone.

[RoadKill]

No dice, RoadKill. You were going after me and CR - but mostly me by far - for the last 4 or 5 rounds. Your votes were all for me, not CR. By the end you had decided that CR was innocent. So you don't get the privilege of saying "I told you so" - you were wrong just like the rest of us.

Stop telling everyone, I just want to make you guys feel bad.

[Crazed Rabbit]

However, the slippery Rabbit felt he had a way out, using an extremely small loophole - the difference between "Mafia" (capitalized) and "mafia" (uncapitalized). Therefore he felt he could make statements like this and still leave The Truth intact:

So, what is my judgement on this? Did he successfully fool us all and leave his stainless reputation for honesty intact?

Sorry, Crazed Rabbit, but my answer is no. The Truth has, for me, forever ceased to be a factor. This has been the last game in which I will trust your attempts to use it.

Why do I say this? Technically, your argument may have some merit - the dictionary apparently does contain the two entries you quoted. But alas, it's all smoke and mirrors. In the context of this game, when we say "mafia" it's clearly understood what is meant, with no room for ambiguity - whether we capitalize it or not.

And my evasions in MacSobers were not smoke and mirrors? You yourself said I could have sworn that I wasn't a mafioso in that game, since I was a MacSober, not a mafioso technically. How is that different from this?

Good game, all around, either way.

Well, while we're being technical- the rules refer to "mafia" not "Mafia". Did your role PM capitalize Mafia? Probably not. In that case, you were in the "mafia", not the "Mafia".

Hmmm...

Background: That wonderful Kingdom of Peace and Love, the Frontroom, is under attack by the Mafia, who have infiltrated two of their members into the town. Why is this town so important to the Mafia? Who knows? If it is why don't they send more people than just two untested rookies? Who cares? The townies are not without hope, however, for they can invoke the power of democracy and lynch one of their own every day, and they also have a Detective dilligently working to find the identity of these two perps. Will the Frontroom be saved? Only time will tell...

Crazed Rabbit

[Csargo]

It's the same word...

[Beefy187]

Shouldnt trust people in mafia game anyways.

Hey but you can start trusting me

[Kommodus]

And my evasions in MacSobers were not smoke and mirrors? You yourself said I could have sworn that I wasn't a mafioso in that game, since I was a MacSober, not a mafioso technically. How is that different from this?

Are you serious?

Here's what you did in MacSobers:

Well, you stuck to your word and you were being honest, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for now.

Unvote: Warmaster

Here's an idea to help find the mafia.(Or narrow the field)

Crazed Rabbit, are you mafia?

Nope.

You guys know though, that I don't like projecting 'I'm innocent - noone is going to lynch me, mafia, so you might as well kill me now!' right at the beginning of a game.

The only reason I'm doing this is because I got lynched in KFM (Andres...*glares*) so I figured I'll help you guys not waste a lynch.

When pressed on this obviously inadequate response, all you said was this:

Ichigo's right - I already said I'm not mafia.

Bit different than what you did in this game, no?

Anyway, had you actually done what I suggested - swearing not to be mafia and later saying "I was actually a MacSober" - it still would've been quite different. The difference between "MacSober" and "mafia" is much greater than the difference between "Mafia" and "mafia." In MacSobers there might have been some room for ambiguity in the statement "I swear I'm not in the mafia." Not so in this game.

Also, remember this?

Like my fellow townies, I hate the mafia and all their evil acts, I want to see them dead, and I swear this to be true.

The only logical interpretation of this statement is that you are swearing it to be true in its entirety, including the part about you being a townie.

My point is, if the statements you made in this game could be considered ambiguous, then any statement you make can be considered the same. We all reviewed your statements carefully and none of us could find any wiggle room. So the next time you make such a statement, no matter how clear it appears, we have no way of knowing whether or not there is some loophole - real or imaginary - that only you have thought of.

That is why The Truth is a casualty of this game.

[seireikhaan]

I'm with Kommo on this. CR can no longer be viewed as honest, for no reason other than the fact that he will find even the TINIEST little loophole/technicality to avoid incriminating himself should be be mafia. For the purposes of mafia games, mafia=Mafia. They are one and the same. That is why CR can no longer be viewed as trustworthy, imo.

[Crazed Rabbit]

So be it, if that's your view. At least people won't start voting me because they want me to swear I'm not mafia.

You know, The Truth was started so that I could stop late game attempts to lynch me. You turned it into something that could be used as a sword to hang over my head, to force me to incriminate myself.

If you think of the truth is dead, so be it. But think of it as a big part of a meta game, that I've been playing ever since I started using the truth, in order to win this game.

I'll be mafia again, and I won't use the truth. And I'll still win.

CR

[seireikhaan]

I'll be mafia again, and I won't use the truth. And I'll still win.

CR

Good to know you're humble in victory, CR.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Oh, come on

You were just saying I can never be viewed as honest again.

I just got through the biggest game of GH's mafia ever. I think I can be a little boastful.

Crazed Rabbit

[Kommodus]

So be it, if that's your view. At least people won't start voting me because they want me to swear I'm not mafia.

You know, The Truth was started so that I could stop late game attempts to lynch me. You turned it into something that could be used as a sword to hang over my head, to force me to incriminate myself.

If you think of the truth is dead, so be it. But think of it as a big part of a meta game, that I've been playing ever since I started using the truth, in order to win this game.

I'll be mafia again, and I won't use the truth. And I'll still win.

CR

Actually, this is precisely why I'm not that disappointed or concerned about being defeated in this game. This is the good that's come of it.

I'm not quite certain who you're referring to, but I don't believe it was me who turned The Truth into "a sword hanging over your head." It was, of course, inevitable that it would become precisely that, due to its very nature.

I actually did suspect the day would come when you would use your reputation to win a game as mafia. The Truth was indeed a powerful weapon. It served you well many times as a townie, and it served you well in this game as a mafioso, despite being a one-shot-only weapon. I think it's actually remarkable that you kept it going for as long as you did, in a contest where deception is at the core of the game.

So I welcome this change, since it means you're now playing on the same level as the rest of us. For my part, I have never sworn and will never swear my innocence (or anything else, for that matter) in a game of mafia, no matter what role I'm playing. This is because even in a game, I would not swear to anything false - and I don't care to find myself in your dilemma.

Your meta-strategy, having reached its endpoint, has proven successful - congratulations! Please don't think I'm bitter or angry in the slightest - far from it! As I said, I figured this day would come eventually; I simply had no idea when. Now that it has I can stop wondering.

You are indeed a fine mafioso, Crazed Rabbit. Though it remains to be seen how you'll do next time you wear the fedora...

[sapi]

Also, sapi, I expect a writeup, or at least a list of names you investigated. You were killed in the 7th round, so you had 6 innocents on your list, yet you didn't reveal. Why the flippin' heck didn't you?

7 innocents would have cleared exactly 50% of the town; I was waiting for that number to reveal

I'll do up some notes later, but for now, the list (in round order):
Kage
Andres
Sasaki
Lemur
Kommodus
Ichigo