Sweboz EB 1.0 comments

[Frostwulf]

Which Germanic people? German is just a Latin word meaning 'genuine.'

The Germanic tribe which would include the Suebi,Chatti,Cherusci,Batavii,Quadi, etc.There are many thoughts behind the meaning of this.
"Various etymologies for Latin Germani are possible. As an adjective, germani is simply the plural of the adjective germanus (from germen, "seed" or "offshoot"), which has the sense of "related" or "kindred"[2] or "authentic". According to Strabo, the Romans introduced the name Germani, because the Germanic tribes were the authentic Celts (γνησίους Γαλάτας).[3] Alternatively, it may refer from this use based on Roman experience of the Germanic tribes as allies of the Celts."

The Jastorf complex is just the local expression of the late Halstatt and early LaTene cultures? As we all know the late Halstatt is the basal and the LaTene the full on expressions of what was the Kelt ethnos. Regardless, how would one know if the people of the Jastorf expression spoke Kelt or Nord?

This is not what I have read, they are different. I believe the jastorf culture followed the nordic bronze age. I think they were influenced by the Halstatt cultures but are still different. As far as what they spoke that usually comes from philology and place names in the region such cultures had dwelt.

The progression of specific elements of material culture associated with the late phases of Halstatt culture from southeast to the west, northwest, and north does not support a proposed early southward expansion from Scandinavia. Neither does the progression of the LaTene nor that of the early phase of the Halstatt. In fact, along the Frisian coast and Denmark many aspects of the EIA material culture (ceramics and architecture) appear to be associated with the local LBA expression as well.

I can only repeat what more learned men then I have said:

J.B. Bury-"The Invasion of Europe by the Barbarians"-" In the second millennium BC the homes of the Germanic peoples were in southern Scandinavia, in Denmark, and in the adjacent lands between the Elbe and the Oder. East of them beyond the Oder were Baltic or Lettic peoples, who are now represented by Lithuanians and Letts. The lands west of the Elbe, to the Rhine were occupied by Celts.
After 1000BC a double movement of expansion began. The Germans between the Oder and the Elbe pressed westward, displacing the Celts. The boundary between the Celts and Germans advanced to the west, and by about 200BC it had been pushed forward to the Rhine, and southward to the Main. Throughout this period the Germans had been also pressing up the Elbe. Soon after 100BC southern Germany had been occupied, and they were attempting to flood Gaul. This inundation was stemmed by Julius Caesar." pg.5

H.D. Rankin-"Celts and the Classical World"-"By the end of the sixth century BC, the Germans had expanded into Belgium and the southern part of Holland. They occupied both banks of the lower Rhine, and they reached as far south as the Ardennes.
Across Europe the long line of Celtic hill-forts may be said to have restrained German expansion for centuries, though, as we have said, there was considerable intermingling. Certain tribes of Gaul, such as the Aedui, boasted of Germanic descent. The Belgae also were a mixture of German and Celt. There is no reason to suppose that it was specifically German pressure that detonated the great Celtic invasions of Italy and Bohemia at the end of the fifth century BC. There is no evidence that the line of Celtic fortifications did not hold good at that time. On the other hand, Celtic pressure seems to have caused Eastern Germanic tribes, such as the Bastarnae, to move eastwards." pg.18-19

The Oxford Classical Dictionary-"The conventional view is that German language and culture originated in northern Germany and land about the western Baltic from about 500BC. Movement of peoples, leading to the reversal of Celtic expansion and Germanic contact with the Mediterranean world, took place from 300BC. In the west, this included the Cimbric migration of the 2nd cent. BC -probably also the date of German settlement across the lower Rhine. The early 1st cen. saw the arrival of the Suebi on the upper Rhine. In the east, the Germanic Bastarnae appeared on the borders of Thrace as early as 200BC; and the same period saw the establishment of the distant ancestors of, amongst others, Burgundians, Goths, and Vandals, between the Oder and the Vistula." pg. 635 Contributers: Anderson,Much,L.Schmidt,E.A.Thompson,M.Todd,P.Heather

This comes from my university textbook on Central Asian History (Nomads to Nations):
David Christian's A History of Russia, Central Asia and Mongolia: Volume I Inner Eurasia from Prehistory to the Mongol Empire. 1998. Blackwell

very interesting information, hopefully I will have the time to read that book.

[cmacq]

This is not what I have read, they are different. I believe the jastorf culture followed the nordic bronze age. I think they were influenced by the Halstatt cultures but are still different. As far as what they spoke that usually comes from philology and place names in the region such cultures had dwelt.

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J.B. Bury-" Soon after 100BC southern Germany had been occupied, and they were attempting to flood Gaul. This inundation was stemmed by Julius Caesar." pg.5

H.D. Rankin-"Celts and the Classical World"-"By the end of the sixth century BC, the Germans had expanded into Belgium and the southern part of Holland. They occupied both banks of the lower Rhine, and they reached as far south as the Ardennes.
Across Europe the long line of Celtic hill-forts may be said to have restrained German expansion for centuries, though, as we have said, there was considerable intermingling. Certain tribes of Gaul, such as the Aedui, boasted of Germanic descent [east of the Rhine-german not Nordic]. The Belgae also were a mixture [?] of German and Celt. There is no reason to suppose that it was specifically German pressure that detonated the great Celtic invasions of Italy and Bohemia at the end of the fifth century BC. There is no evidence that the line of Celtic fortifications did not hold good at that time. [why is it assumed these were built for protection against Nordic invasion]On the other hand, Celtic pressure seems to have caused Eastern Germanic tribes, such as the Bastarnae, to move eastwards." pg.18-19

The Oxford Classical Dictionary-"The conventional view is that German language and culture originated in northern Germany and land about the western Baltic from about 500BC. Movement of peoples, leading to the reversal of Celtic expansion and Germanic contact with the Mediterranean world, took place from 300BC. In the west, this included the Cimbric migration of the [late] 2nd cent. BC [cimbri were most likely Kelt and not Nordic]-probably also the date of German settlement across the lower Rhine [?]. The early 1st cen. saw the arrival of the Suebi on the upper Rhine. In the east, the Germanic Bastarnae [why are these Nordic] appeared on the borders of Thrace as early as 200BC; and the same period saw the establishment of the distant ancestors of, amongst others, Burgundians, Goths, and Vandals, between the Oder and the Vistula." pg. 635 Contributers: Anderson,Much,L.Schmidt,E.A.Thompson,M.Todd,P.Heather
very interesting information, hopefully I will have the time to read that book.

Influenced by the Halstatt cultures or local expression of Halstatt means the same thing. Nordic bronze age, only if one includes Denmark, otherwise this is a bridge too far. Some researchers have inserted this to support the argument of an early Nordic southward expansion. If one actually looks at the material assemblage of the LBA and much of the IA it is clear there was a relatively homogeneous complex that extends along the entire southeast North Sea coast.

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If you want me to rip these apart I will? But if you read these carefully you can do the same. I always read these with a grain of salt. The real key to this problem is within the langauge the English call German.
Far too few Kelt loan words in German for so long a proposed co-habitation. Also far too many non-IndoE load words in German which do not show up in Kelt-speak. For a good example of the reverse please see English. However, the one good exception to what I propose were the Frisians, we just don't know how early they did establish themselves in Holland and along the northwest German coast. Of course that would in turn bring us back to the relationship of Latin-Kelt-Balt on the one hand and English-Frisian on the other.

Again, I hope this line is not a case of a 'modern German tail/tale wagging an Old Norse dog?'

Sorry I must run for now.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

I don't want to get into this argument, and I didn't read everything.

You frequently call others' opinions "absurd" and "nonsense" and you say that the EB team "should" do as you say, instead of "could". There is a huge difference between should and could - one is basicly an order while the other is a suggestion. You keep saying "no offense" after these outburts (as if you actually do realize people might be offended), but by then the damage will in most cases already be done.

The should thing could easily be a translation error. The German equivalent to should is normally "sollte", which is in no way offending, and indeed even polite. However, this cannot be an excuse of course, and I agree that his posts often seem rude, arrogant and much like "hoppla jetzt komm ich".

Again, I hope this line is not a case of a 'modern German tail wagging an Old Norse dog?'

I have no idea what you want to state with this sentence. This thread is about the depiction of ancient Germans in EB. You are not more polite than the OP, really, nor do you seem to back up statements like the above "Cimbri are Celtic and not Nordic". Nobody should pretend his assumptions to be truth without any back up.

[Frostwulf]

As I am working on another post I wont get into this thread to much yet.

[east of the Rhine-german not Nordic].

Considering Caesar is the one who writes of this after 61 B.C.

Gerhard Dobesch-"The Celts*"-"From 61 B.C. onwards, the name "Germani" began to be used to refer to non-Celtic tribes east of the Rhine, a term that probably derived from northern Gaul." pg. 35

cimbri were most likely Kelt and not Nordic

The majority of historians/archaeologist would disagree with you.

Influenced by the Halstatt cultures or local expression of Halstatt means the same thing. Nordic bronze age, only if one includes Denmark, otherwise this is a bridge too far. Some researchers have inserted this to support the argument of an early Nordic southward expansion. If one actually looks at the material assemblage of the LBA and much of the IA it is clear there was a relatively homogeneous complex that extends along the entire southeast North Sea coast.

I apologize, but I'm not sure what your saying here. Also what is LBA and IA?

If you want me to rip these apart I will?

Please do, I am interested in this. When you rip them apart please use citations, I have been in debates on these forums where claims were made with nothing to back them up with.

Far too few Kelt loan words in German for so long a proposed co-habitation. Also far too many non-IndoE load words in German which do not show up in Kelt-speak.

Very interesting! But considering that the Celtic and 'Germanic' languages were written down much later, couldn't that be cause for this?

However, the one good exception to what I propose were the Frisians, we just don't know how early they did establish themselves in Holland and along the northwest German coast. Of course that would in turn bring us back to the relationship of Latin-Kelt-Balt on the one hand and English-Frisian on the other.

Could you clarify and expand on this?

Again, I hope this line is not a case of a 'modern German tail wagging an Old Norse dog?'

I'm not German if thats what your getting at. I hope your not going to get into the "your a nazi" innuendo's because I might disagree with you. I have already been through that and don't care to go through it again. If you disagree with my information that is fine, but don't label me because of a disagreement. My interest is purely academic. I hope I'm misunderstanding what your getting at.

[cmacq]

As I am working on another post I wont get into this thread to much yet.

Considering Caesar is the one who writes of this after 61 B.C.

Gerhard Dobesch-"The Celts*"-"From 61 B.C. onwards, the name "Germani" began to be used to refer to non-Celtic tribes east of the Rhine, a term that probably derived from northern Gaul." pg. 35

The majority of historians/archaeologist would disagree with you.

I apologize, but I'm not sure what your saying here. Also what is LBA and IA?

Please do, I am interested in this. When you rip them apart please use citations, I have been in debates on these forums where claims were made with nothing to back them up with.
Very interesting! But considering that the Celtic and 'Germanic' languages were written down much later, couldn't that be cause for this?

Could you clarify and expand on this?
I'm not German if thats what your getting at. I hope your not going to get into the "your a nazi" innuendo's because I might disagree with you. I have already been through that and don't care to go through it again. If you disagree with my information that is fine, but don't label me because of a disagreement. My interest is purely academic. I hope I'm misunderstanding what your getting at.

The word for the day is...

Deconstruction.

First...

Frostwulf, now I remember you...

you're that naked warrior guy?

This is kind of basic stuff...

Does Gerhard Dobesch tell anyone why he makes the assertion about the German usage in the 1st century BC. If we read Στράβων ο Αμάσειος; Strabo, who lived and wrote in the period cited above, we may actually learn what the term meant in the 1st century BC.

Στράβων Γεωγραφία
Strabo's Geography

Book 7

[Chapter 1]

[2] εὐθὺς τοίνυν τὰ πέραν τοῦ Ῥήνου μετὰ τοὺς Κελτοὺς πρὸς τὴν ἕω κεκλιμένα Γερμανοὶ νέμονται, μικρὸν ἐξαλλάττοντες τοῦ Κελτικοῦ φύλου τῷ τε πλεονασμῷ τῆς ἀγριότητος καὶ τοῦ μεγέθους καὶ τῆς ξανθότητος, τἆλλα δὲ παραπλήσιοι καὶ μορφαῖς καὶ ἤθεσι καὶ βίοις ὄντες, οἵους εἰρήκαμεν τοὺς Κελτούς. διὸ δὴ καί μοι δοκοῦσι Ῥωμαῖοι τοῦτο αὐτοῖς θέσθαι τοὔνομα ὡς ἂν γνησίους Γαλάτας φράζειν βουλόμενοι· γνήσιοι γὰρ οἱ Γερμανοὶ κατὰ τὴν Ῥωμαίων διάλεκτον.

My Rendering
[2]Therefore, directly over the Rhine, in the mists of the Kelts, moving ahead [this] rising daybreak reveals [the] Germans. [They] are very little different [from] the Keltic nations [except for] greater savageness, stature, and blonder hair. I may say that apart from this [they] nearly resemble the appearance, traditions, and every day manners exhibited [by] the Kelts. Wherefore, [I] believe [the] Romans named this place thus, as haply being Galatae, [as they] wished to indicate the race of the Germans in the Roman language.

Traditional Rendering: H. L. Jones: Harvard University Press, 1917 thru 1932.
[2] Now the parts beyond the Rhenus, immediately after the country of the Celti, slope towards the east and are occupied by the Germans, who, though they vary slightly from the Celtic stock in that they are wilder, taller, and have yellower hair, are in all other respects similar, for in build, habits, and modes of life they are such as I have said the Celti are. And I also think that it was for this reason that the Romans assigned to them the name “Germani,” as though they wished to indicate thereby that they were “genuine” Galatae, for in the language of the Romans “germani” means “genuine.”

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Based on Strabo's report, I'm respectively disinclined to agree with Dr. phil., Prof. Gerhard Dobesch; Full member of the Section for the Humanities and the Social Sciences, Professor der Römischen Geschichte, Altertumskunde und Epigraphik an der Universität Wien w. M. Österr. Archäologisches Institut, M. Istituto Naz. di Studi Etruschi e Italici. Yet, as Strabo was so clear on this subject was there really any doubt? Or...
maybe Dobesch knows more about the 1st century BC that did Strabo?

If you actually want to debate this subject you need to tell me your understanding of the Latin usage of the term German in the 1st century BC. If you think it simply was used to distinguish the culture east from that west of the Rhine, we may talk. Next, you need to tell me your understanding of the archaeology behind the Halstatt and LaTene culture concepts.

[cmacq]

I have no idea what you want to state with this sentence. This thread is about the depiction of ancient Germans in EB. You are not more polite than the OP, really, nor do you seem to back up statements like the above "Cimbri are Celtic and not Nordic". Nobody should pretend his assumptions to be truth without any back up.

Dear sir, good things come to those who wait.


'modern German tail/tale wagging an Old Norse dog'

If we can agree that the basal language was some form of proto-Old Norse, why is this linguistic group called Germanic?

Documented practice concerning a given tradition, among the historic Cimbri.

http://books.google.com/books?id=G-Q...Uwtk#PPA395,M1

The artifact type associated with the tradition, found near Gundestrup in Himmerland (Cimbri-Land), Denmark.



Iconography on the artifact that depices a practice documented within the area of its discovery.



Iconography on the artifact that depices known Keltic deities.

Cernunnos



Lugh of the Long Arm



The artifact type disposed of in a fashion (dismantled and buried in a peat bog) documented among Keltic groups. More than one example from the same area (the Rynkeby Cauldron).



The Blekinge Mask

Individual bull's heads like those on the Rynkeby cauldron have been found on Funen and Lolland. Another two fragments of a torqued mask have been found at Ringsebølle on Lolland. These fragments nearly identical to the face on the Rynkeby Cauldron. Now we have alot of LaTene artifacts coming from Denmark.


Please read

http://www.blekingemuseum.se/mapp5/pdf/maskbilden.pdf

Also, the Latin c and Greek k suggest Cimbri/Kimmbros had assumed the Latin form through Celtic which used ch later replaced by Nordic h (Celtic chimbr-, Latin cimbr-, Norse himbr-).

These are called converging lines of evidence.

[Cadwalader]

That's actually some pretty good points here! No doubt somebody will fence it, though. Europa Barbarorum fans gathered in one place arguing history always gets exciting!

[cmacq]

We shall see?

Yet, I for one need to get some sleepb now.

I'm off to the field at six this morning.

[Mouzafphaerre]

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All great and enlightening; but why the aggressive style? Neither of your manhood will suffer should the counterpart win, if there's shit to be won at all.
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[cmacq]

If I'm not aggressive he may not take the bait? Remember Frostwulf and the naked warrior threat. OK, i'll edit it out. I get that way when I get tired. Besides this line is a path well traveled as I fear this may have something to do with Nationalism?

[Anthony II]

The progression of specific elements of material culture associated with the late phases of Halstatt culture from southeast to the west, northwest, and north does not support a proposed early southward expansion from Scandinavia. Neither does the progression of the LaTene nor that of the early phase of the Halstatt.

Sdk80, I can get very detailed on this subject, but it will only add to disprove your thesis of an early Nordic southward expansion into Denmark and northern Germany. The reason I didn't want to address the direction this thread was heading is because this is a typical quasi-national socialist view of the subject.

Agree. From what I’ve observed on these forums, there appears to be a general consensus amongst many here that there existed a huge generic Nordic / Germanic 'volk' that invaded very early in the period and slaughtered all of the generic 'La Tene Celts' in their path due to an innate superiority / marshal prowess.

Again, I hope this line is not a case of a 'modern German tail/tale wagging an Old Norse dog?'

Often wondered that myself

I hope your not going to get into the "your a nazi" innuendo's because I might disagree with you. I have already been through that and don't care to go through it again. If you disagree with my information that is fine, but don't label me because of a disagreement. My interest is purely academic.

Sounds terrible, when did this happen?

The only one who brought up nationalism is sadly yourself. Beside your comments i didn't noticed anything about this thread being nationalistic… I really enjoyed reading blitzkrieg's, Frostwulf's and other comments

A fish may never know that he lives in water..

So true cmacq

All of these Hjortspring swords are the IA Nordic type; single edged..

I’d tend to disagree there.

I can only repeat what more learned men then I have said:
J.B. Bury…
H.D. Rankin …
The Oxford Classical Dictionary….

In this thread there are points I didn't get...at all.

First Collis says one thing, then says the reverse, then couters back again. It is obvious he doesn't actually present evidence, as this is an overview of others opinions. I have this book as well, but this section is little more than once again, his or others opinions. The part I underlined appears to be yours, as it may have confused others. Not good to interspace your's with other's opinions. Please read carefully the third paragraph; the segment you made bold. Are you a native English speaker?

Having looked over these forums, it appears that Frostwulf does this sort of thing alot. If I'm not wrong, the general modes operandi involves unintentionally posting large amounts of conflicting data in an attempt to support a given position.


Excellent post by the way cmacq

I have enjoyed many posts from everybody in this thread.

Frostwulf has made significant contributions to EB threads with good logic and better evidence and citation. Cmacq, I have enjoyed reading much of your comparative work in threads, you also do the good practice of logic, evidence, and citation.

True on Cmacq. Whilst I don’t agree with everything he’s said, he’s argued his position most admirably. No offence as he is obviously a close friend..but Frostwulf, I just found confusing, vague and clutching at straws.

Anyone notice the absence of the instigator of drama and unsupported claims of doubt in EB representation of Sweboz?

lol ..poor sdk80, EB mods probably banned his ass!


my2bob

[Mouzafphaerre]

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poor sdk80

I was thinking of somebody else.
.

[Anthony II]

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I was thinking of somebody else.
.

Oh, who ?

[Mouzafphaerre]

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Somebody else.
.

[blitzkrieg80]

lol ..poor sdk80, EB mods probably banned his ass!

my2bob

what you talking about, Psy2bob?

EB mods don't ban, unless you refer to individuals who harass for immature and sick pleasure, going on campaigns of self-loathing where continual antagonism of good people is rewarding to them in some way, dragging those who want nothing to do with them down, for no reason but for the fact that he feels so low. No point in feeding at the bottom by choice, so 'poor'- wh-wha-WHAT!?

[Mouzafphaerre]

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Glad I'm not the only one to think Anthony II is...somebody else.
.

[antiochus epiphanes]

.
Glad I'm not the only one to think Anthony II is...somebody else.
.

more then a few of us...

[Anthony II]

what you talking about, Psy2bob?

Ah yes, poor Psycho. Had his ass banned because allegedly some in EB found his presence here too threatening. Or so he said, I'm his cousin.

.
Glad I'm not the only one to think Anthony II is...somebody else.
.

My, someone is perceptive! Ok, yes I admit I'm not really Anthony II. My real name is actually Bhuail Tá leabhar agam Antaine Moíthimtengae. I just thought an Anglo-Latin name Anthony would be easier and 'Anthony' had already been taken.

Anyway, this is all a bit off topic. Lets get back to this discussion on the Germans.


my2bob

[Frostwulf]

@blitzkrieg80-Seems then we are of the same conclusion on the 'Germani'. The reason I used the term norse was of cmacq designation for them. The Roman term 'Germani' is perfectly fine for the peoples who moved from southern Sweden area and spread from there.

Please see

Hans Kuhn, Rolf Hachmann and Georg Kossack, Völker zwischen Germanen und Kelten. 1962
(The People between the Germans and Kelts)

I guess I had it backwards, I was thinking it was more linguistic evidence and not so much material. Thanks for the reference.

[blitzkrieg80]

I had this idea recently and I want to know what everyone thinks:

FOR EB2:

REMOVE Rugi town / province (add land to Sweboland or Pomerania/Polish coast province)

ADD Hermunduri town / provinces in the mysterious gap North of between the Chatti (Volcae) and the Boii on the map.

RENAME Swebotraustastamnoz town (which currently means 'Suebi Allied stem') to something with the Semnones