Capo de Tutti Capi - II [Concluded]

[Husar]

I want to step forward to collect all the information about the mafia, all mafiosi can feel free to send me their role PMs, this will balance the game then.

[PershsNhpios]

Exactly.

[Zorg]

Pannonian, your post is all well and good and has probably just revealed a mafia member for all to see. My question to you however, is your proof. The pm you posted looks legitament to me, but could just as easily be made by you.

You said:

Drake's family can organise a revenge attack on the recipient of this PM if they like

I'm assuming this means that you arn't the original recipient. So may ask, who was the original recipient, did they pass this on to you to post on the forum? Why wouldn't they just post it themself? I can't really see a reason why they wouldn't... it seems a bit strange to me .

If the person who actualy received it could come forward it might remove some of my suspicion. But it seems to me like you are essentialy "sacrificing" a townie who gave this to you in trust in order to reveal a mafia member. As you have already said, 1 for 1 is advantagous and revealing a mafia is worth it, but I want to hear from the person actualy being sacrificed.

At the moment I feel like your showing us one tiny peice of information where there should be more (ie. how did the situation get to the point of that message being sent, and how did it get to you). I'd like to know the full story.

[PershsNhpios]

And, also, amongst the throng of targets proclaiming innocence and assistance, myself included - why has the Mafia targeted Beefy187?

[Pannonian]

Pannonian, your post is all well and good and has probably just revealed a mafia member for all to see. My question to you however, is your proof. The pm you posted looks legitament to me, but could just as easily be made by you.

You said:

I'm assuming this means that you arn't the original recipient. So may ask, who was the original recipient, did they pass this on to you to post on the forum? Why wouldn't they just post it themself? I can't really see a reason why they wouldn't... it seems a bit strange to me .

If the person who actualy received it could come forward it might remove some of my suspicion. But it seems to me like you are essentialy "sacrificing" a townie who gave this to you in trust in order to reveal a mafia member. As you have already said, 1 for 1 is advantagous and revealing a mafia is worth it, but I want to hear from the person actualy being sacrificed.

At the moment I feel like your showing us one tiny peice of information where there should be more (ie. how did the situation get to the point of that message being sent, and how did it get to you). I'd like to know the full story.

The story's actually all out in public, if in bits and pieces. In case I die tonight, I'll say that woad&fangs received the PM, but if you want more details than that, you'll have to get them from him. I suppose this reveal means he is no more use as a contact with a mafia family, but that's small a loss, as he can still function as a run of the mill townie.

[PershsNhpios]

It's a pity Woad&Fangs has little online time to spare.

I can't give any opinion on him, I haven't had enough contact.
However, I would like to know how the two of you are related, if possible, the length of time he has apparently infiltrated the Mafia, of which it is said Tiberius is part of, or head of - and if you have anymore condemning evidence.

If you have time, Pannonian, as I don't, I'm going to bed soon - would you do the same post comb as you did with Tiberius - this tends to show obvious mental patterns - perhaps it can help you prove your point with W&F.

Don't forget my question - why would they target Beefy?

[Pannonian]

I'll share the info when you share the info. I originally asked for a stay of execution for you so that you may have time to prove your innocence. You declined to do what I asked to test that, so I remain doubtful about your towniness. For now, Drake and GH are better lynch candidates than you, but if Drisos' detective claim proves to be false, and hence Sigurd is off the list, then you will be the next most suitable candidate for the rope, with your many doubtful claims making nonsense of your central claim.

[GeneralHankerchief]

I started on this post about twelve hours ago, so it'll probably seem fairly out of context:I just want to see you defend yourself in all honesty - it gives you a chance to slip up should you be a mafioso, which can provide sufficent evidence to later lynch you, or perhaps conclude your innocence.

So GH, why were you defending yourself so aggressively and in your mafia style before?

This defence, seen from this point throughout D1/N1, was performed in a way as I have known you to in a guilty role in the past (Lycan (Serial Killer) in pevergreen's Fantasy Mafia). You roll your eyes and answer questions with other questions to try avoid providing what the original question asked of you.

I also want to know why others have previously claimed you to be a known mafioso?

All right, let's look at the individual posts:

Behavior that in the past indicated scumminess when the people doing so should have known better.

This is my response to Sasaki's query of what I consider scummy. I answered it. I don't see any problem with this.

Re: Andres.

Missed the post when you first did it (and second time too).

Anyway, it was indirect pressure. Sasaki's been dogging Glenn and those who gave (to him) questionable reasoning for electing me. By using some kind of mathematical or logical reasoning, I figured that if he was pressuring my alleged "goons" he'd think that I was in on something too.

Andres was asking me why I seemed to come out in a pre-emptive defense. That was my reply. The exact reasoning will come in a later post.

Hmm, let's see...

The fact that he (along with a few other people) was being called out specifically for their reasons for voting moi, perhaps?

And yeah, it was a pre-emptive defense. I didn't want to have to wake up with 50 "you said you like the choice of Kommodus, why did you not vote him then?" posts waiting for reply.

More of the same...

I figured it out! It's the transitive property! That's that little mathematic formula I've been using!

If A=B and B=C, A must equal C.

A: Glenn comes under fire for electing me.
B: I defend those who come under fire for electing me.

Therefore...

C: I defend Glenn.

It's not too hard to put 2 and 2 together, Sasaki.

Here's me explaining my reasoning. I added the wiki link to make sure everyone knew what I was talking about.

Since that was the last of that little exchange, I ask you: How the heck is that suspicious? I answered everything I was asked. I explained my reasoning for what I did, at first subtly and then directly. Excuse me for doing so aggressively. I guess I'd rather be more content to sit back and take the misdirected lynch.

I find it funny how, at the same time, I am accused of being too aggressive and too in-the-background.

As for this "criminal" result thing, I don't know what to say. I know what I did last night, which is sleep. I know what I'm doing tonight, which is sleeping. Unless somebody contacts me with interest in a protection group, I'm going to be sleeping tomorrow night too.

I'm going to Mock Trial now and I won't be back for several hours. Hopefully the lawyers cross-examining me won't be this bad.

[PershsNhpios]

Then you shall remain stiff as a pole, Pannonian, but I remind you that I'm not the only one questioning you - you won't be able to hold your information at ransom simply because you think I am hiding something.

Also, seeing as their seems to be a lot riding on it, including my head - has anyone thought that Drisos may simply of been a very investigative player who found some sure facts through research and used the detective role to make everyone shut up and listen?
That's something to note before we swing the game on wether he is or isn't.

I do respect how GH is making the effort to reply to all questions answered and is leaving nothing untouched or ignored.
But to show my neutrality remains, I ask this;
Why would you sleep three nights in a row when so many absolutely ballowaffling things are occurring here?

Are you saying that you have no allegiance or ambition to help or attack anyone, that you may or may not have special abilities that you don't bother to use anyway?
You must be doing something. Nobody would sleep three nights in a game like this.

[GeneralHankerchief]

I do respect how GH is making the effort to reply to all questions answered and is leaving nothing untouched or ignored.
But to show my neutrality remains, I ask this;
Why would you sleep three nights in a row when so many absolutely ballowaffling things are occurring here?

Are you saying that you have no allegiance or ambition to help or attack anyone, that you may or may not have special abilities that you don't bother to use anyway?
You must be doing something. Nobody would sleep three nights in a game like this.

I want to play this game in an unbiased manner, which means voting people based solely off content in the thread. Too much behind-the-scenes material and I go crazy.

[Pannonian]

Then you shall remain stiff as a pole, Pannonian, but I remind you that I'm not the only one questioning you - you won't be able to hold your information at ransom simply because you think I am hiding something.

Also, seeing as their seems to be a lot riding on it, including my head - has anyone thought that Drisos may simply of been a very investigative player who found some sure facts through research and used the detective role to make everyone shut up and listen?
That's something to note before we swing the game on wether he is or isn't.

It does mean that the facts he's made up will be less believable, as are the conclusions to be drawn from them. If he did indeed do a fake reveal, then he deserved to die for that alone, under the lynch all liars idea. Something that is becoming increasingly tempting to apply to you, with each outlandish claim you make.

[PershsNhpios]

Then I'll make no more, for the sake of your lavish temptation.

[Zorg]

Now that W&f has been revealed I await his response before making a direct judgment. I'd also like to hear what Drake has to say on the matter.

Pannonian you still havn't told us:

1. How you got the pm
2. Why w&f didn't post it himself

Seems like your dodging the question.

[PershsNhpios]

And no one is suspicious of the fact that Beefy187 - of all people, was the target! Why?!

[Pannonian]

Now that W&f has been revealed I await his response before making a direct judgment. I'd also like to hear what Drake has to say on the matter.

Pannonian you still havn't told us:

1. How you got the pm
2. Why w&f didn't post it himself

Seems like your dodging the question.

1. How did I get the PM? W&F forwarded it to me.
2. Why didn't W&F post it himself? Probably because he hasn't been on since. Ichigo asked for some ideas, so I posted the PM in case of W&F or I or both dying tonight. It's generally good practice, if there is dirt on confirmed mafia, to publicise it before you die, for you might not be able to do so after you die.

Are there any more question you'd like me to dodge?

And no one is suspicious of the fact that Beefy187 - of all people, was the target! Why?!

The minds of other people are dark and mysterious. How the heck is one supposed to know why they picked such and such target?

I've not received any reply to my PM, so I'll ask in the thread instead. Are you willing to explain what you've been doing those past couple of nights? And are you willing to lock yourself into town activity tonight, activity which generates tangible proof of towniness? Or are you still going to BS us with your stories and cries of "Trust me, I can't say anything more!"? Reply by PM if you want to keep the answer private.

[scottishranger]

And no one is suspicious of the fact that Beefy187 - of all people, was the target! Why?!

I am getting the same feeling. Why does the mafia want Beefy dead so much? The first night I might just think that it was a random act, but two nights in a row? They must know something we don't.

[PershsNhpios]

I am content with Pannonian's replies.

No, I don't care for the privacy of your question.
The subject of my actions on Night 1 are a widely stated fact that led to the suspicion of Stranger, Louis and Sigurd.
I was protecting Sigurd under threat of death and bandwagoning. Ha!

Tonight I am investigating.

And, unless something very drastic occurs, which from what I've seen is rather possible, unless, I will be continuing to investigate.
These results I will not keep private provided the public is willing to listen.

I don't think it is a good strategy for me or my confidents, or ANY innocent to kill.
Our violence is in the lynch, your vigilante busts are only going to confuse the detectives, and that means my own investigations also.

Please, behave at night, stay with protections and investigations.

*************

So Beefy may be important.
What's saddening is how he noted he may be absent for the rest of the game.

*************

This is a public services announcement.

Glenn is going to bed, he is tired and has very sore eyes from tidying up all the loose ends and questions.
He requests that you all keep the noise down, and try not to kill, attack, accuse and twist things too much here until he returns, lest he be faced with the dramatic episode of earlier.
Not that he didn't appreciate that.

May all the innocents live tonight.

[Sigurd]

[...]
So, at the start of day 4 you will all have your proof of my pro-townness.. so, perhaps it would be a nice idea to have all pro-town people send their role pm (without red), their business so far, etc to me? I could indeed be a town-contactperson, which would make it easy communication for town.. also, I could easily influence voting so that pro-town people wouln't be lynched. need to 100% understand the rules for dead people first though, just to be sure this all is allowed..

I can't see that you have cleared my name yet... I would like to know why?
You stated that you knew I was a Don as Andres more than once questioned this. I can't see that this has been answered. You claim to be a detective, yet detectives will get an innocent read on a Don pr. Seamus' role descriptions the same results as doctors, Surgeons, Detectives, FBI agents and townies would.

In my opinion, the most suspicious people are Sigurd and Stranger.

I can't see why Drisos would do a fake reveal, especially after he died, unless he was hoping for a quick lynch (i.e. before his role was determined). Stranger is suspicious for his usual shenanigans, but it could just be normal behavior.

GH.. will you care to explain your logic here? As I mentioned, Drisos claims I am a Don, but Dons will be innocent in a detective investigation. How can a detective’s investigation on a Don be conclusive?

Or the moonlight.. on Hononluuuulu Bay..

This is atleast the third time I see this sentence. Another code?

The only other thing I can add is that I hope you realise I am attempting to aid this little discussion here, whilst we wait for the results of Night 2.
I don't want to betray the people who helped me, and so within the guidelines of their trust and what was written in red in my role PM - I am helping you as truthfully as possible - if you're innocent, it's up to you wether to regard anything I say.

I don’t know if this contact could be trusted Glenn. I too have worked with people doing investigations. They claim they got a guilty read on GH. Do you realise the important difference?
One result comes from a Made and the other from a Detective. Since Mades don’t get guilty reads but detectives do, then your informant must be a Made. I will of course have to confirm this with my informant, but it was said guilty.
This means that both investigations yielded a read on either a Made or a Luca who was out and about last night.

[Kagemusha]

I would really like to hear what Tiberius of the Drake has to say on his behalf. It seems that we have atleast one sure lynch already for the day, unless ofcourse Pannonian would be lying, but i cant see why he would take a such risk to get rid off Tiberius.

[TinCow]

Do we have any intention of following up on Glenn? The general consensus was that he should be spared specifically because an investigation could determine whether he was mafia or not. Glenn has not been 'cleared' by anything, yet everyone has been focusing their discussions on other people. I do not like the idea of simply forgetting about a person who has a 50% probability of being a Don. Can someone confirm that Glenn will be investigated tonight and that the results will be publicly shown tomorrow? If he is mafia, he should be the top priority lynch.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Night Phase is concluded. Results summarized and posted as soon as I can.

R/L sales meetin ran late and I went straight to bed. Apologies. (yes, successful, 2 LTC apps).

[Caius]

Caius, CR, Shin are not posting enough. 1 or 2 posts each. Normally they have mid range

Err...I'm in holidays! I need to read 6 pages of 80 posts yet!

[Seamus Fermanagh]

SOrry, wife & kids need attention for a few hours before wife leaves on business trip tomorrow.

Will finish summary and post later tonight

Day phase will begin at that time.

Thanks for your patience.

[Kommodus]

Well, well, well the sleeping giant awakes. What about GH? Sasaki? There's nothing more you'd like to add?

Why?

Other people are spending their time analyzing the heck out of GH and Sasaki. That's not my gig; I'd rather spend my time looking places others haven't looked.

I do think GH is probably guilty. His behavior brings to mind a vague recollection of another game in which he "pretended" to be upset and offended by all the accusations flying his way (I think it was GF II).

Sasaki is probably innocent.

Can you give me anything that will put faith in you?

No.

A question to Kommodus; why does he fit the mafia profile? How?

I'm not going to say, except to repeat what I've said in a couple of recent games. Holmes had been losing its edge and was looking particularly worse for wear after Mafia VII. So I upgraded it, adding a new metric besides the ones you're all familiar with. It's proven helpful in some recent games; still not foolproof, but quite good. That's all the information you'll get.

Anyway, it looks like we can be confident of Tiberius's guilt. But Hannibalbarc is guilty and should be lynched as well.

[The Stranger]

I... just... like... 3... dots... I... do... it... everywhere... its... my... trademark...

For those wondering about drisos reveal about me... he later said he believed my innocence...

oh... stop whining about my dots...

how long till deadline? nevermind... saw it already

[Hannibalbarc]

I'm not going to say, except to repeat what I've said in a couple of recent games. Holmes had been losing its edge and was looking particularly worse for wear after Mafia VII. So I upgraded it, adding a new metric besides the ones you're all familiar with. It's proven helpful in some recent games; still not foolproof, but quite good. That's all the information you'll get.

What exactly are you taking about?

Anyway, it looks like we can be confident of Tiberius's guilt. But Hannibalbarc is guilty and should be lynched as well.

Well so far you haven't given proof to back that up, are you just randomly targeting people?

[shlin28]

Vote Hannibalbarc (unless I'm dead )

Never seen Holmes wrong yet...

Edit: Oh right, thought day phase started (misread Seamus' post)

[The Stranger]

1. it isnt dayphase yet...
2. kommo just said holmes isnt foolproof...
3. i want to know what holmes says about me...

[Myrddraal]

Firstly I agree with those who've said that Glenn is by no means cleared. Though the code word crown did appear a couple of times early on, the other two didn't appear till he was accused. I believe Glenn has been cleared temporarily on the basis that a detective will be investigating.

Now the trouble is, how is that detective going to get the word out about their results, and how do we trust those results if they come second hand (through another player).

I suggest that should any detectives find a guilty result on Glenn, they should speak up personally. The town can always form protection groups for that person. I'd also suggest that if he is investigated and gets an innocent verdict, that the detectives should just shut up about it.

If we hear nothing after another night, then it should be safe to assume that Glenn is innocent.

This idea isn't foolproof of course, any mafioso can stand up and claim to be a detective with a guilty result on Glenn, but they'd have to put themselves in the spotlight, and there are plenty of genuine detectives out there to check anyone who steps forward.

My 2p on that subject.


As for Hannibalbarc, we must also remember that Holmes comes with a twist, it can be manipulated by Kommodus if he is mafia. However, that shouldn't stop us lynching Hannibalbarc (If Kommodus is mafia, it's in both his interests and the town's interest to lynch his competitors).

So my opinion is, we should lynch Hannibalbarc, just in case, but bear in mind that it might a mafioso mind, and not Holmes that has pointed him out.


EDIT: Correcting grammar/spelling

[Pannonian]

Firstly I agree with those who've said that Glenn is by no means cleared. Though the code word crown did appear a couple of times early on, the other two didn't appear till he was accused. I believe Glenn has been cleared temporarily on the basis that a detective will be investigating.

Now the trouble is, how is that detective going to get the word out about their results, and how do we trust those results if they come second hand (through another player).

I suggest that should any detectives find a guilty result on Glenn, they should speak up personally. The town can always form protection groups for that person. I'd also suggest that if he is investigated and gets an innocent verdict, that the detectives should just shut up about it.

If we hear nothing after another night, then it should be safe to assume that Glenn is innocent.

This idea isn't foolproof of course, any mafioso can stand up and claim to be a detective with a guilty result on Glenn, but they'd have to put themselves in the spotlight, and there are plenty of genuine detectives out there to check anyone who steps forward.

My 2p on that subject.

One possible dodge that comes to mind is a wise guy sacrificing himself for a family. Being a wise guy and not a fully fledged gangster, they are slightly more expendable and less traceable. They stand up, say that Glenn is criminal and get him lynched, then get lynched themselves when the autopsy comes through. This tactic may also work in a tighter situation when there is less leeway for the town or other families in the endgame.

So I'd like to ask Seamus, are wise guys town or mafia aligned if they've done something for a family, but have not been fully accepted as Mades? Would it be in the interest of a wise guy to do the above?