Boycott Games for Windows - Live

[Crian]

I already posted this in the software forum... but I kinda feel strongly about it so I'm putting it here for maximum exposure. :D

Hopefully it'll get some peoples' attention before the mods lock it up or something.

http://boycott-live.com/

EXCERPT:

Boycott Live? Why?

We have decided to start a boycott campaign against Microsoft’s Games for Windows – Live service because it’s violating our rights as PC gamers. Microsoft is pushing hard to make online PC gaming exactly like the Xbox’s. They want us to pay additional costs to subscribe to their Live service, and pay more monthly fees for a gold account, or to use the barely/non-working Silver account. Even if a gamer surrenders his soul for the attached fees to Microsoft; he may not even be able to purchase a subscription because the Live service is only available in 26 countries out of the 257 countries. This means that gamers from 231 countries are currently unable to purchase gold subscriptions even if they want to.

These two main issues put the future of online PC gaming at serious risk. This is what convinced us someone needed to start a boycott campaign against the Games for Windows – Live service. This became imminent to preserve online gaming and gamers rights. Of course Microsoft is a multi-millionaire corporation and they probably won’t care about this boycott, but game developers and publishers are more vulnerable to boycotts, and therefore we will target them instead. Sega, Eidos and THQ already signed to bring more Games for Windows – Live titles. The clock is ticking, now it’s the time to stop it. Say NO to LIVE.

[caravel]

Agreed with every word. I've seen a disturbing trend on this forum later where gamers are more interested in / sympathetic to the global profits of Sega than they are in quality games that are free of stupid anti piracy software and provide a decent challenge to someone over the age of 10.

The other issue is that the more and more gamers accept this restriction of basic freedoms (namely the freedom to make a backup copy, the freedom to play online without restriction and the freedom to choose what is installed on your machine) the worse it will become.

M$ have sought to bring everything PC under their monopolistic banner for years. They have made no secret of this and the ".NET Passport" thing was the beginning of this. The .NET passports makes it possible to monitor exactly what a user is doing on the net. Already part of MSN hotmail and the key part of the messenger service, integrating it into gaming is taking it a step further. This will bring Xbox and PC gaming under one umbrella. Developers that ignore it, as with developers that ignore DirectX, will be isolated and picked off.

[Ravencroft]

And Micro$oft got away from the anti-trust case with a relative slap to the wrist...

Man, I was only around seven back then, found out by reading my mom's TIME magazines.

[Spartan198]

Consider Microsoft Games for Windows - Live boycotted by me. Glad to stand by my fellow Orgahs.

[Abokasee]

United States, United Kingdom, Taiwan, Switzerland, Sweden, Spain, South Korea, Singapore, Portugal, Norway, New Zealand, Netherlands, Mexico, Japan, Italy, Ireland, India, Hong Kong, Germany, France, Finland, Denmark, Canada, Belgium, Austria and Australia.

What the worlds largest country isn't on the list? what the fudge? what in gods name are these people doing?
They seem to be only be adding countrys where PCs are at 1-1 ratio (India, Mexico and Austria are not... would someone correct me if this is false)

All I have to say is £25 - £30 a year just to play online? **** off windows, let alone WINDOWS live on the PC! I never played lan but... I would like to use that feature on day!

Well its easy for me since I won't be buying anygames (Although TF2 is tempting) until septemberish (Spore if they extend it this time) where everything would of been "updated" (Milk that goat dry windows!) to windows vista

P.S Hopefully by september the boycott would of have some sucess... unless they ignore as they seem to be doing at this moment in time

[ArtistofWarfare]

As I and several others have expressed in every location that this thread has shown up: If you want to run around with your hair on fire screaming, go right ahead. Few will follow. There's absolutely nothing to be concerned about here.

All these threads are doing is showing me who has a clear "anti spending money on anything" bias.

It's the same names showing up in any thread that discusses spending money. "Don't upgrade your PC", "Console games have more value (even though they cost more)" "MS is trying to steal the world from under our feet by charging us 8 cents a day!".

Relax. Things cost money. It is what it is. Other than these petitions and threads started by the OP, I don't see anyone on the internet or in real life even mentioning this topic. It really, seems like about 3 people on the entire internet.

Lastly, as others have pointed out- These countries that are being "excluded" by and large don't even have internet access. They've yet to become a part of the "information age". That's why they're not included in this: There's nothing to market.

Total fuss over nothing here.

[caravel]

It really, seems like about 3 people on the entire internet.

And I am honoured to be among those three people.

[Puzz3D]

Well I won't buy the Microsoft - Live Gaming Service, but should I also get rid of MSN?

[caravel]

Well I won't buy the Microsoft - Live Gaming Service, but should I also get rid of MSN?

That's up to you. Why would you want to?

[ArtistofWarfare]

And I am honoured to be among those three people.

Obviously...

I think the other 2 of them might have forgotten about this already if it wasn't for your zealous support of this "boycott".

Again- "Don't upgrade to Vista!!!", "Don't pay to play!!", "Don't spend money on a gaming PC!!". I definitely get the drift.

I've spent thousands in the past week on Vista, pay to play games, and on a new gaming PC. Thousands.

I'm still here...no flames engulfing me.

I'm going to really go off the deep end this weekend when I install M2TW:K Gold. I'll be installing SecuRom on my hard drive!!! Can you imagine? Surely, my entire PC will explode immediately, along with my house. My family will all become cancer stricken and my dog will contract herpes. I'll probably never be able to get a date again, and assumably- my legs will fall off as well.

Still- I'm goin' balls to the wall baby!! Everyone scream "FIRE!"

(sorry, I just think that above scenario seems more exciting than spending the next 6 weeks on these forums with the Heretics, cursing all of the Gods above).

[caravel]

Herpes? How terrible, have a beer!

[Ravencroft]

Gah!

And on a side note, I'm gonna search for a copy of TW: Eras this weekend.

And NO,that's not gonna happen to me!

[ArtistofWarfare]

Gah!

And on a side note, I'm gonna search for a copy of TW: Eras this weekend.

And NO,that's not gonna happen to me!

Nothing is going to happen to anyone...that's the point.

Use Vista, download securom, actually pay to play- It's all good.

Some people just want to be miserable and worry about things rather than enjoy what they have.

But definitely- Nothing would happen to them if they just went about their business like everyone else. Nothing at all.

They enjoy this.

Believe me, I'll blow the whistle just as fast as anyone when it's called for. It's just not called for here.

[eddy_purpus]

No man its not telling you to not TW GAMES online !!!
what its tryin to tell you .
is that Microsoft is trying to convert online pc gaming into a XBOX LIVE-Like sytem-of-getting-more-money. . .
they are gonna get ur money just to play with 26 countries .
what about the other countries man ?
is that fair to cut online gaming like that around the world .
i mean you pay for the internet . you paid for the game .
i mean . you can use the internet to do whatever you like and its internationally public to some places and to play free .
what they want to do is to get more money and more money .
and you know what i think if that happens .
i think that less gamers are gonna be playing online because not all the people have the money to pay everything . you know what i mean ?
only the rich would play this games online like halo and others .
Halo its very known in the world . . .and you know it
what would happen if they put a $ 50 per year fee just to play online ?
another $ 50 for the game .
and only 26 countries in the world could play .?

hope you get it


Edvard0

[PershsNhpios]

I totally agree with the situation.

[Marku]

the games listed on that site are generally crap / boring after 5 minutes. lol.

we have nothing much to worry about until their new OS comes out.

[caravel]

Nothing is going to happen to anyone...that's the point.

Use Vista, download securom, actually pay to play- It's all good.

Some people just want to be miserable and worry about things rather than enjoy what they have.

But definitely- Nothing would happen to them if they just went about their business like everyone else. Nothing at all.

They enjoy this.

Believe me, I'll blow the whistle just as fast as anyone when it's called for. It's just not called for here.

There is only one person taking things to extremes and trying to force an agenda in this thread and that is quite clearly yourself. Why on earth would it be "all good" to "pay to play" as you put it? Where is the reasoning behind paying for something that used to be and should still be free? Subscription online gaming is the beginning of the end for online gaming as a whole. I remember there was a poll a year or so back as to whether members would pay a subscription to play TW online, the overall result was pretty much no.

What is the point of playing online with a select few people, with the available funds to pay for such a service, from a select few, mainly wealthy, countries instead of the entire world, FREELY? You've gone out, you've bought the game, you've had malware copy protection shoved down your throat and now you have to "pay to play"? And your response to this is: "It's all good". I find it shocking that anyone would support this. It would be like me supporting my electricity provider in increasing my bill by 50% for no reason! Madness.

Also securom is not downloaded as you have suggested, it is installed by stealth on to your hard disk drive without your knowledge. It circumvents your machine's security and has been classified as malware. Even after uninstalling a securom protected game, securom will reamain on the system requiring you to remove it manually. There was a big controversy over the version that shipped with Bioshock. Personally I don't trust this kind of software, if others want to that's up to them, I'm not here to force an agenda.

I also find it quite disturbing that you seem to think that anyone criticising Windows Live "pay to play"/Vista/Secruom is just "miserable" and "enjoys this". This is simply not in any shape or form a counter argument, due to the fact that you are attacking such individuals personally or as a group instead of countering their argument(s). I've posted in many threads as to why I personally don't see Vista as worthwhile, why securom is a bad thing and why "pay to play" is simply extortion. In each case my argument has never taken a form such as yours' has in this thread. I have never attacked the individual, always the argument.

[ArtistofWarfare]

There is only one person taking things to extremes and trying to force an agenda in this thread and that is quite clearly yourself. Why on earth would it be "all good" to "pay to play" as you put it? Where is the reasoning behind paying for something that used to be and should still be free? Subscription online gaming is the beginning of the end for online gaming as a whole. I remember there was a poll a year or so back as to whether members would pay a subscription to play TW online, the overall result was pretty much no.

What is the point of playing online with a select few people, with the available funds to pay for such a service, from a select few, mainly wealthy, countries instead of the entire world, FREELY? You've gone out, you've bought the game, you've had malware copy protection shoved down your throat and now you have to "pay to play"? And your response to this is: "It's all good". I find it shocking that anyone would support this. It would be like me supporting my electricity provider in increasing my bill by 50% for no reason! Madness.

Also securom is not downloaded as you have suggested, it is installed by stealth on to your hard disk drive without your knowledge. It circumvents your machine's security and has been classified as malware. Even after uninstalling a securom protected game, securom will reamain on the system requiring you to remove it manually. There was a big controversy over the version that shipped with Bioshock. Personally I don't trust this kind of software, if others want to that's up to them, I'm not here to force an agenda.

I also find it quite disturbing that you seem to think that anyone criticising Windows Live "pay to play"/Vista/Secruom is just "miserable" and "enjoys this". This is simply not in any shape or form a counter argument, due to the fact that you are attacking such individuals personally or as a group instead of countering their argument(s). I've posted in many threads as to why I personally don't see Vista as worthwhile, why securom is a bad thing and why "pay to play" is simply extortion. In each case my argument has never taken a form such as yours' has in this thread. I have never attacked the individual, always the argument.

Once again, ALL of this over what amounts to a few pennies each day.

That's taking things to extreme...not my highlighting of it. If you just saved a soda can each day, you would be playing for "free".

Extortion? Over 8 cents a day? Give me a break...

I'm not "attacking an individual" either. There's no "attack" involved in this. I'm merely pointing out a few individuals who are acting extremely silly and bizarre.

I mean why not spend your time spreading "quit smoking" propaganda, or complaining about oil prices? What's the point of this?

The reason these threads keep fizzling out is because very, very few people care. Just look at the things in the industry that revolve around paying to play. Xbox Live, MMO's- Need we go farther? Nobody really minds paying. If anything, it keeps the community fresher...by having some requirement (as in, yes- you actually need money and some form of identification to enter the online world).

Could you imagine world of warcraft if it was free? It's already overloaded with people...

p.s.- I don't see anything wrong with me at least addressing an individual as opposed to simply that individual's opinion. Not in this thread. As you've seen, I've been very respectful of such in other threads. This thread is specifically about a few personalities. A few people here have a problem with what virtually nobody else does (clearly, not only are these threads all dead, there are tens upon tens of millions of people on pay to play games as you read this). Further, as I've stated already, I'm all for blowing the whistle or throwing the flag on a corporation that is attempting to gouge or extort it's consumer base. But a totally optional, recreational, luxury- where the provider is going to charge...PENNIES a day to play? Give me a break.

We're not talking about health care, heating oil, or food. We're talking about games. Luxuries. I don't see any thread about the rising costs of necessary services in the world such as food, medicine or proper heating of one's shelter during winter...nope. I see this same topic by the OP just repeatedly spammed all over total war forums. You cannot expect me to take this serious...over pennies a day. For games.

[caravel]

Once again, ALL of this over what amounts to a few pennies each day.

That's taking things to extreme...not my highlighting of it. If you just saved a soda can each day, you would be playing for "free".

Extortion? Over 8 cents a day? Give me a break...

Not a lot? Perhaps not for you, but what about the countries that are excluded? They don't even get the option to pay. It's a racket, but you're so obviously dead set on singing it's praises and labelling anyone that is in anyway against it as "miserable" or "enjoying this" that you can't see it. Your argument amounts to "pay it because it's so little anyway", this is not an argument in itself and schemes like this always start out cheap, then once they control the market, prices will start to go up. It's all about monopolising, something M$ have a bit of a track record of.

[caravel]

In reply to your edit:-

I'm not "attacking an individual" either. There's no "attack" involved in this. I'm merely pointing out a few individuals who are acting extremely silly and bizarre.

You claim it isn't an attack then you label those against what you so actively support as "silly and bizarre" well done.

The reason these threads keep fizzling out is because very, very few people care. Just look at the things in the industry that revolve around paying to play. Xbox Live, MMO's- Need we go farther? Nobody really minds paying. If anything, it keeps the community fresher...by having some requirement (as in, yes- you actually need money and some form of identification to enter the online world).

I wouldn't say that very few people care, I would say that few people know. The people in the countries that will be excluded might care, but I doubt they even appear on your radar.

MMO is a totally different matter altogether as those games are sold and marketed on the basis that you will have to pay a subscription to actually be able to play the game at all. Xbox live is an M$ console, and this kind of subscription service is how M$ want online PC gaming to work.

Could you imagine world of warcraft if it was free? It's already overloaded with people...

Again it's an account based MMO, and as such a different matter. You're clearly drawing the wrong comparisons. Most multiplayer games can run from public servers and the user can choose the servers to join. MMOs are quite obviously different to this.

In reply to your second edit:-

p.s.- I don't see anything wrong with me at least addressing an individual as opposed to simply that individual's opinion. Not in this thread. As you've seen, I've been very respectful of such in other threads. This thread is specifically about a few personalities. A few people here have a problem with what virtually nobody else does (clearly, not only are these threads all dead, there are tens upon tens of millions of people on pay to play games as you read this). Further, as I've stated already, I'm all for blowing the whistle or throwing the flag on a corporation that is attempting to gouge or extort it's consumer base. But a totally optional, recreational, luxury- where the provider is going to charge...PENNIES a day to play? Give me a break.

No, in order to win your argument you are simply trying to ridicule the individuals involved with the over use of rhetoric and sweeping statements. This is in the posts you have made. Basically instead of addressing the issue your argument has been to the effect that it's a minority or a few of the miserable people that enjoy it that are trying to push the issue and that if they'd shut up, or in particular if I'd shut up the rest would have forgotten about this "boycott" without my zealous support. So in effect yes, you are trying to win this argument not through sound reasoning, but through character destruction.

We're not talking about health care, heating oil, or food. We're talking about games. Luxuries. I don't see any thread about the rising costs of necessary services in the world such as food, medicine or proper heating of one's shelter during winter...nope. I see this same topic by the OP just repeatedly spammed all over total war forums. You cannot expect me to take this serious...over pennies a day. For games.

Fair enough but this is a gaming forum, and you can accuse me of making a big issue of this, which you have done, but I can also safely accuse you of playing "Information Minister" due to your "there is no problem, there is no securom, pay the money and be happy! Caravel? He's miserable and enjoys this sort of thing! That's it nothing to see here, move along now." approach.

This thread was a discussion about this service, I am not trying to stop the thread proceeding, you are clearly trying to do just that.

[ArtistofWarfare]

In reply to your edit:-

You claim it isn't an attack then you label those against what you so actively support as "silly and bizarre" well done.



I wouldn't say that very few people care, I would say that few people know. The people in the countries that will be excluded might care, but I doubt they even appear on your radar.

MMO is a totally different matter altogether as those games are sold and marketed on the basis that you will have to pay a subscription to actually be able to play the game at all. Xbox live is an M$ console, and this kind of subscription service is how M$ want online PC gaming to work.


Again it's an account based MMO, and as such a different matter. You're clearly drawing the wrong comparisons. Most multiplayer games can run from public servers and the user can choose the servers to join. MMOs are quite obviously different to this.

1) In the world I've existed in, I've never heard someone refer to the words "bizarre" and "silly" as "attacks" against one's person. You can't blame me...

2) Others have already completely deadened this issue about "excluded countries". a) You're right, they don't show up on my radar...nor anyone else's. Almost every single one of them lacks internet access and currently, is about .0001% of the market. If that. b) Nothing is changing. These same countries have always been excluded and left behind with changes in technology. The reasoning behind this fact has nothing to do with video games or MS. It would be found in history. Although I don't think the UN would see this as a top priority...c) You're saying that they're being "excluded". From what? The evil plan MS is going to unleash upon the rest of us? According to your logic, it sounds like they're going to be saved...not excluded.

3) I know that MMO's have a core structure which IS paying to play. Although this is your point, it's also MY point. They're selling it off the shelves, by the MILLIONS, with the consumer already knowing that they won't just be buying the game for the same price as every other game on the market (full price), but additionally paying $15 USD a month to play. Throw in the expansion packs and you're talking about a multi hundred dollar investment to the player over time. Still, these games are just flying off the shelves, even being restricted in certain countries due to the fact that too large of a population percentage is spending 3/4 of their lives in the game world...paying and playing. Obviously, this isn't having any effect on the MMO genre (the fastest growing and expanding, as well as most lucrative genre in the industry). Console gamers are already paying for Xbox Live...and choosing the 360 by and largely over the PS3 which offers free online gaming/web browsing...as well as paying $60+ USD after tax for every new game (roughly 40% more than PC gamers...per game). The point here, before I go on a numbers tangent is that nobody is shying away from paying to play as is. This won't change. Gamers as a whole, just don't have a problem with it. Look at Xbox Live downloads. Not only are gamers subscribing to live, paying for their games and accessories, but also downloading movies, demos, gamerpics, etc from the marketplace en masse. They could get this for free on playstation network- but they just don't choose to. If you just added to the equation "gamers have to pay $12 a month to play any game on their PC", I don't think things would change too much. If anything, it would just make the "already pay to play" games like WOW more popular. Might as well get more for the same price right?

4) If you've purchased a console game within the past 10 years, you really don't have any room to complain about this. None. It's hypocritical. You've already been gouged beyond the point that this pay to play plan could ever do to you. The console software is by and largely, sheer crap compared to the PC software, and yet it costs 40% more. PLUS the console gamers pay to play on top of this. So, this battle- if you've decided it was worth fighting- needed to be fought before the console market was inflated out of control. It wasn't...nobody said boo. So therefore, anything you try to accomplish by preventing any increase in the cost of PC gaming, is an example of way too little, way too late. It's an act of futility.

p.s.- My counterargument to this, as well as the one others have laid out in other threads (there have been several), is just as valid as is the existence of this thread. In simple terms- You don't want to pay to play, I acknowledge that I pretty much already am. Further, you're arguing that there are countries being "left out of the loop" by Microsoft. I'm arguing that they can't be- Because they're already out of it. If it wasn't a problem 13 months ago, it's not a problem now. An "Information Minister" is always warranted...wherever there's misinformation or misleading information. If you can justify the despot, you can justify the revolt.

[eddy_purpus]

once they control the market, prices will start to go up. It's all about monopolising, something M$ have a bit of a track record of.CARAVEL i agree with CARAVEL




Edvard0

[ArtistofWarfare]

once they control the market, prices will start to go up. It's all about monopolising, something M$ have a bit of a track record of.CARAVEL i agree with CARAVEL




Edvard0

...once again. Monopolizing and gouging the consumer base is not something that is limited to, nor started with Microsoft.

This is just business. Once again, these are things that needed to be fought on different fronts, many years ago. It's a futile effort to fight inflation and price gouging here. You want globalization and market capitalism? Here it is...

We couldn't stop it with taxes, costs of health care, food, medicine, clothing, housing, travel, etc., but now we're going to raise an ARMY to fight it on the gaming front?

So you agree with Caravel...in that you don't want to pay more for gaming than you currently are. What a monumental effort...

p.s.- This is why I'm calling the entire "boycott" silly. Example- Let's say we're back in the infant stages of the American Revolutionary War. We don't have a problem with taxation without representation. We don't have a problem with Monarchy rule. We're ok with the thousands of women and children that have been killed. We don't mind losing all of our property. BUT- Just WAIT a SECOND HERE- We're going to wage a massive war effort over the apple trees lining the colonies? Futile, futile effort. You're just fighting for something that you've already lost.

[TosaInu]

Some good points.

You're just fighting for something that you've already lost.

Maybe true. If nobody speaks up though, it's a total 'victory' for the industry. Gamers need the industry, but the industry also needs gamers.

Maybe a boycot is silly, bad communication between the left and right hand is too.


Please continue the discussion, be nice to each other.

[Spartan198]

Please continue the discussion, be nice to each other.

Yeah,I agree. We are all friends,here,after all. I never play online,and even I oppose Pay-to-Play.

[Ravencroft]

I don't play online too.

Considering both sides though, both are right: ArtistofWarfare shows us that Microsoft isn't that all bad; While the others have also proven that this(i.e. Microsoft takes our cash) may be too much.

[Puzz3D]

That's up to you. Why would you want to?

Because of your comment regarding the invasive aspect of the .NET Passport service. I didn't install .NET Passport, but I wonder how invasive MSN is.