Killing the General

[Heidrek]

Aside from a temporary but large Morale penalty, what other effects does killing the general have mid battle?

Do the Valour and Morale bonuses he grants disappear instantly? What about if he withdraws/routes? Does he take his bonuses with him?

[caravel]

IIRC if he withdraws or routs the "proximity to general" morale boost is lost, whereas if he dies any affect he has on the valour or morale of the army disappears instantly. This is why you often see mass routs on the death of the general, the loss of all bonuses and the large temporary morale penalty can be devastating.

[Ironsword]

The AI frequently sends in a 6/7/8* general with a depleted unit and then withdraws him from the game before my army is anywhere near his lines. Does this benefit him in any way? If all the bonuses are lost then he is surely better off fighting without him anyway and using the unit slot for another 100 arbalesters. Is this just crazy AI or am I missing something?

[macsen rufus]

Is this just crazy AI or am I missing something?

You may be missing something - if the general withdraws he's still alive and you can't kill him, therefore you can't remove the command star bonus he gives. There's the small "general proximity" morale bonus the AI will lose, but set alongside the +3/4 valour bonus this is a minor loss. It is one of the AI's smarter tactics for using its general, especially when set beside its other favourite of charging him into your pointiest spears through a hail of arbalester bolts

[Vladimir]

And because the AI can't retrain their units an 8* general unit with one horse left always makes me mad. I have to bring a pair of Jinettes or MXBs just for the vain hope of catching that bastard before he flees.

[Heidrek]

So, withdrawing the General means his +1's to attack and Defense still happen for the entire battle, whereas him dying removes all benefits?

Good to know. do you know if withdrawing can trigger the Not So bold vice?

[Ravencroft]

I noticed that...

Well, I was fighting with my 4* general when he got killed in the melee (I forgot to withdraw him ).

Next thing I knew, The valour bonus displayed went from 2 to 0.

Then some of my men fled.

[Jxrc]

Good to know. do you know if withdrawing can trigger the Not So bold vice?

I can if you withdraw three battles is a row without your general's unit killing anyone or taking any casualty. One killing or casualty is enough to break the chain so that it can be a good idea to let you general's unit receive a few arrows before moving out (loosing 2/3 knights is better than the morale malus).

The not so bold vice does not affect the AI that often because it auto-calc battles against other AI faction but it does happen if the same AI general attacks you each turn and withdraw (usually it happened a few time when facing an army made almost entirely of HA while the AI general's unit had itself no missile capacity)

[Ravencroft]

Wokey...

What does not so bold exactly do anyway? And does it have any worse forms?

[caravel]

Not so bold is one of the coward line of vices, along with eager to retreat and good runner - which are worse forms. It delivers a battlefield moral penalty to all units under the vice bearer's command. I cannot remember the exact figures, they may be fully listed in Frogbeastegg's guide, but I'm not that familiar with the guide so wouldn't know.

[macsen rufus]

IIRC "not so bold" is worse than "good runner", something like -6 morale - instant retirement from active duty if any of my generals were to get it

[Heidrek]

Not So Bold is -2 Morale. Good Runner is -3 and there's another one that gives -6 that you sometimes get at the same time as Good Runner. Forget the name of that one.

My fav general has aquired Not So Bold, but I can't figure out why. He's been actively fighting in the past and he's never lost a battle except for one tactical withdrawl. This is the guy who's an Field Defense Expert and Skilled Poor Odds Defender

[Spongie]

The Turks reappeared in my game and spent several years charging into a neighbouring territory belonging to the much larger Egyptian faction, only to be beaten back or to end up calling off the attack. Their king ended up with something like "indecisive attacker" as well as "eager to retreat" (or similar)... the combined morale penalty was staggering.

[Heidrek]

Morale penalties are quite bad really and I'm wondering if I should take that general out of circulation soon. He is Merciless already which gives -2 Morale, but being Not So bold as well makes that -4. Almost too much to live with.

On the plus side I have just totally splattered my first Crusade. The foolish french sent a Crusade against me that was poorly supplied and I ate it for breakfast. Made about 2000 Florins in Ransoms and valoured up a bunch of my units. The slaughter was sickening I tell you. losses of about 8:1 as my Bashkorts rained death on the approaching French. Javelin storms make short work of Order Foot Soldiers and Royal Knights. While two units of Steppe Heavy cavalry led a bunch of halbardiers and Italian Infantry around the map stoppin everyy so often to pepper them with arrows. Finally exhausted from their non stop chase they were lead back to the slaughter, pinned by my spears and then routed by a charge to the rear by those same Steppe Heavy Cavalry.

Now, all I have to do is get to Bohemia and take it. I really like the idea of having Bohemian Archers as my main line infantry. They have 2 attack and 3 defense, So I'm thinking that tese guys would suit me very well indeed. I could have a totally missile enabled army. Frontline infantry with bows, then javelins as the enemy closes, even my cavalry could be Steppe Heavy Cavalry for more archery fun. It's be a particulalry nasty defensive army.

Most gratifying to smash them body and soul.

[Ravencroft]

That's exactly why I like hybrids.

You know, the shoot and charge thingy. The combination of casualties under fire and getting charged at and suffering huge losses will trigger a rout, I tell you.

[Jxrc]

Morale penalties are quite bad really and I'm wondering if I should take that general out of circulation soon. He is Merciless already which gives -2 Morale, but being Not So bold as well makes that -4. Almost too much to live with.

Did exactly that for a while but I found out by accident that was probably not a necessity. I only had one decent general (5 stars) with the Cracked-Brained v&v (moral -2) but, to my amazement, I had no problem keeping my army fighting. Could due to the fact that his commande rating gave a +2 valour and thus a +2 morale nullifying the v&v penalty ? Not sure though that command rating increase morale and not just attack and defense. If stars do have an impact on morale then they must be taken into account to see if a general needs to be pu aside. Would say that an aggregate malus of -2 is the most you can accept.

For V&v& like merciless and no mercy the best solution is to kill a few more prisoner so that you get secret blood lover (+ 3 dread IIRC and no morale penalty)

[Martok]

Did exactly that for a while but I found out by accident that was probably not a necessity. I only had one decent general (5 stars) with the Cracked-Brained v&v (moral -2) but, to my amazement, I had no problem keeping my army fighting. Could due to the fact that his commande rating gave a +2 valour and thus a +2 morale nullifying the v&v penalty ? Not sure though that command rating increase morale and not just attack and defense.

IIRC, troops receive a +1 morale bonus for every 2 stars a general has; troops within 50 meters of the general get a +1 morale bonus for every star.

So your particular case, that 5-star commander would give a +2 morale bonus to most troops, and a +5 morale bonus to any troops in close proximity to him....which would obviously offset any vice that gives a -2 morale bonus.

If stars do have an impact on morale then they must be taken into account to see if a general needs to be pu aside. Would say that an aggregate malus of -2 is the most you can accept.

Depending on the general and/or what kind of vices & virtues he has, you can maybe risk going down to -4 morale. Anything lower than that, however, and your general's probably not worth keeping in the field. Best to either disband his unit or grant him honorable retirement.

[ArtistofWarfare]

"Good Runner" is really a bad one...

I mean, simply retreating once from a battle (regardless of if it's reasonable or not) can garner this vice. -3 Morale for the remainder of that General's career (or until he counters it with some virtue but I wouldn't count on it) is just crippling.

[caravel]

My fav general has aquired Not So Bold, but I can't figure out why. He's been actively fighting in the past and he's never lost a battle except for one tactical withdrawl. This is the guy who's an Field Defense Expert and Skilled Poor Odds Defender

And that is how he acquired "not so bold". In this respect withdrawing the general has a similar effect as routing the general. I think routing get's the general a minimum of "good runner" straight off, whereas if you withdraw, your general can sometimes get, IIRC, "eager to retreat" or "not so bold".

[Caerfanan]

The V&V attribution could've been done best. I think thant when you attack huge stacks of peasants with 200 ubermen, you gain virtues like "very good against the odds, incredible attacker under bad circumstances". And when you make a magnificient resistance outnumbered 10:1, killing 5:1, and finally rout, you are such a coward, etc, etc...

The best way to handle that is to now that it's about reputation (of your general), and not effective facts...

EDIT: Err, sorry, that's a bit of off-topic ranting...

[Jxrc]

Depending on the general and/or what kind of vices & virtues he has, you can maybe risk going down to -4 morale. Anything lower than that, however, and your general's probably not worth keeping in the field. Best to either disband his unit or grant him honorable retirement.

-4 is really a lot since that amounts to a four star general with v&v with a -6 malus so that would mean an unhinged loon good runner (IIRC). Could be ok with some high morale units like kinghts but with militia, spearmen, CS and the like the battle could be quite short.

If the battle is sure to be a walk in the park anyway, I would suggest that you are better off using another general with slightly less stars but no bad V&V. Personnaly I am always on the lookout for general with V&V that increase morale. If they are in a half decent units (nothing less than FS, FMA), I use that unit as a general for easy battles such as assaulting small forts, dealing with rebels and the like until he gets to two or three stars and then I add few titles to get him to four or more (could give plus 4 by just adding titles - for instance Duke of Trebizon + Admiral but those are not on endless supply so that better choices can take precedence). Princes who get the "famously brave" V&V a great for this even if they have 0 stars because if they have not received V&V such as strange, pride, secret pride and/or chinless wonder, they will never get those afterwards (even when they have ceased to be princes or royal general). On the other hand, if I do it with a three stars "non-royal" general there is always the risk that your efforts will become pointless. Don't know if it's me talking nonsense but I seem to almost always get secret pride each time that I boost a crusade untits from 3 to 7 after I have taken Constantinople ... ok, makes sense that the guy may become a bit too pleased with himself but ....