Attack on Ghaza

Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

Pannonian - by British model do you mean the Northern Ireland peace process? You are aware the situations are hardly comparable?

And what gives you cause to believe the political wing of Hamas is any different from the military wing?

CR

I always get this riposte of how Northern Ireland is a completely different picture to Israel-Palestine. And yet, despite basing my perspective on what I know of the Northern Ireland process, my predictions of what would happen have hardly ever been wrong.

BTW, have you forgotten the trip some former IRA members made to Palestine a couple of years ago? I remember talking about how former Republican hardliners drove the switch to a political approach while they were still in prison, and people dismissing that story with the comment that Israel-Palestine is completely different from Northern Ireland. Then less than a month after I wrote that post, a combined group of Fatah and Hamas members in Israeli prison made such an offer, backed by Fatah and those elements of Hamas which were based in Palestine. Some time later, that IRA trip, which happened just before this, came to light. So, is Palestine really that much different from Northern Ireland?

Do you see Tribesman? I support the Colombian action, I support coalition action in Iraq and Afghanistan, but not these types of draconian actions which seem to target men, women and children carelessly and out of vengeance.

Well strictly speaking its the wrong topic , but since you mention it Tuff and it does kinda link to options being put forward in this topic ... As you and your government support the Columbian action can you name other governments (apart from Columbia) that support the action ?
Can you name governments that are really really annoyed at Columbia since killing the negotiator in Equador that the governments were dealing with through the Equadoran government have sent the talks right down the pan .
Can you see the similarity ?
Two nations , both key regional allies of the US , both need to talk to sort their problems , both do get involved in talks to varying extents ...but then send the whole thing down the pan and its America that says "thats the right thing to do " .
Its a bit bloody silly isn't it , one could certainly call it childish .

Pann regarding that last post of yours , do you remember the Fenians in Columbia ? the ones that said they were there discussing the peace process with FARC ?
What are the sticking points in the Columbian process ?
Is it demilitarisation , prisoner releases , disarmament , political representation , partial amnesty ...kinda just like somewhere else eh .

After having studied this topic in high school Modern History, who cares, in all honesty if they want to bash each others brains out let them do it.

Originally Posted by Rythmic

After having studied this topic in high school Modern History, who cares, in all honesty if they want to bash each others brains out let them do it.

For the most part, I would agree. But my government has its nose (a nose I pay for and that is supposed to represent my interests) so far up Israel`s backside it drives me bonkers. I`m involved even if I don`t want to be. Therefore, being involved, I have decided to choose sides, and given the evidence, I side with the Palestinians.

Hence, to the delight of some of my fellow Orsters, my posts.

There are people that consider snakes to be great pets

The Israeli government consists of a bunch of oversized babies.

"You killed five citizens of my country, now I'll five of yours."

Since Israel is supposed to be the "civilized" nation in the region, they should act civilized too.

This should be:

"You killed five citizens of my country, now I'll five hundred of yours"

Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

Huh. Apparently when you ceaselessly launch rockets at another state, they eventually get mad and try to kill you.

Even more amazing is that some people are calling that action 'childish'. Too foolish to warrant a response.

Pannonian - by British model do you mean the Northern Ireland peace process? You are aware the situations are hardly comparable?

And what gives you cause to believe the political wing of Hamas is any different from the military wing?

CR

Know what ele is interesting?

That when you perform a hostile take over of a peoples' home they tend not to like it. They get even more angry when the rest of the world seems to think it's ok.
When these invaders are better armed than the native inhabitants, the natives use tactics whereby they can hurt quickly then dissapear quickly.

Don't give me the old tome of the U.S in Israel, "they don't target civilians" that's bollocks, and it does not matter to those whom lose family. They still don't have fathers and mothers.

So Rabbit, what would you do if the chinese decided to use some obscure and old book to claim america and started building apartments on top of you're life?

Terrible and all but what is Israel supposed to, Hamas will never stop launching rockets the need to kill is too strong.

This is not the case... Both parties are responsible. Hamas launching rockets from ghaza is also a retaliation of Israel's military acts in Palestine.

This is individual terrorism vs State terrorism.

the need to kill is too strong

lol. You actually believe this.

You think that Palestinians have a need to kill...

Originally Posted by Nobunaga

lol. You actually believe this.

You think that Palestinians have a need to kill...

Well yes

Well yes

hmmm. I believe oppression causes retaliation.

Retaliation, funny one. It's Israel that's on the receiving end. The Israeli's are no angels but let's not forget who declared war on who.

Then some people would say that the creation of Israel itself was an invasion. that's why too many palestinians still think that they have to retake their land... And that too many Israeli still want to "oversecure their borders".

Too many innocent people die, there... Because of too many stupid ones.

Originally Posted by Fragony

The Israeli's are no angels but let's not forget who declared war on who.

Indeed, let's not forget the wars began only after an invasion of Palestine by outsiders who then demanded the country they invaded be carved up like a roast by the UN, and who from (prior to) day one, made it abundantly clear they were going to take the rest of the country for themselves as well, by force if necessary, in violation of the UN declaration they so desperately sought in the first place.

Palestinians didn't invade Europe, none of them left where they were born and tried to partition Poland or Russia, but Europeans did invade Palestine with the express intent of taking for themselves.

That's when the war started.

War started when it was declared.

Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

Too foolish to warrant a response.

If anything is foolish, it is to repeat ones own mistakes rather than learning from them.

Originally Posted by Fragony

War started when it was declared.

It's useless semantics if it becomes a situation where there is no fight simply because the guy who's hitting you hasn't said he's hitting you.

As soon as he hits you it's a fight, whether he says so or not.

Originally Posted by Beirut

It's useless semantics if it becomes a situation where there is no fight simply because the guy who's hitting you hasn't said he's hitting you.

As soon as he hits you it's a fight, whether he says so or not.

The whole world was shaked up en rearanged after WW1 and WW2 that is common practise. It's useless to condemn that, and a bit silly in the greater picture. Would the muslims have any more legitimacy to hold these lands then the current Israelis? They would hold them had they won but they didn't.

Originally Posted by Fragony

The whole world was shaked up en rearanged after WW1 and WW2 that is common practise. It's useless to condemn that, and a bit silly in the greater picture. Would the muslims have any more legitimacy to hold these lands then the current Israelis? They would hold them had they won but they didn't.

Zionist ambitions in Palestine predated WWI and came to fruition after WWII. Those ambitions were temporarily affected by the wars, but had there been no wars, the colonization would still have occurred. Also, the wars redrew boundaries, but populations were not displaced thousand of miles away to create new countries out of thin air. But Israel was created this way.

It's not silly to condemn colonial ambitions that threaten indigenous populations. Getting the Belgians out of the Congo, the French out of Indochina and the British out of India were all good things. As society "progressed" in the post WWII era, we were supposed to have less colonial adventures. Anytime someone from Country A moves to Country B and tells the guy already there to get out because he wants it for himself, it's a bad idea.

Then what are you doing in Canada?

Originally Posted by Fragony

Then what are you doing in Canada?

Cutting trees.

But to answer the truer meaning of your question, I admit without hesitation that I am on stolen land acquired by violence and scheming. But there are different circumstances at play here.

First is my admission that I am on stolen land. That in itself is something. Also, the land here was stolen when half the population still thought the Earth was flat, monsters roamed the seas, and people peed in any empty corner of the room. Not in an educated, post atomic age when uncivilized colonial behaviour was recognized as such.

Second, I respect and support the rights of native peoples to sue the bejesus out of the federal government and win land claims settlements, the right of native peoples to have their own legal system (as long as it does not violate the human rights provisions of the Canadian Constitution), and the rights of natives to sue both provincial and federal governments, as well as the church, and demand public apologies and monetary damages for the systematic abuse of native children that occurred in Canada.

Third, I teach my kids what I just wrote out here so that they will know the reality of the past and their obligations in the future.

Fourth, I have published articles stating all of the above and signed my name to them.

The situation here is far from perfect. But the Canadian justice system has awarded native peoples legal rights over massive tracts of land and awarded monetary damages and assistance settlements that run well into the billions of dollars (my tax money). We also recognize the native population as the true people of the land and that status is taught in school, is recognized by law, and is even sung in our national anthem.

We still have a long way to go to create a truly equitable system, but we are trying. And here in the 21st century, we sure as shoot don`t build concentration camps and imprison hundreds of thousands of people and subject them to arbitrary arrest, torture and imprisonment, all as part of a lie to hide the shame of our past.

I am sure everyone is thrilled looking back. It was a cheap remark of me, but a very easy one if we are to hold Israel responsible by our own standards. That inclused Canada.

Hamas hails a terrorist attack on students, in which eight were killed, as 'heroic', and a 'normal response'.

I just want everyone to be clear exactly what Hamas is. Everyone advocating some 'realpolitik' solution needs to realize that Hamas is not interested in negotiating for anything in good faith.

That is who rules Gaza - a group of murderers who cheer the death of students.

Or does merely being the underdog make it alright?

Tell me, Beirut, when did the leaders of Israel call the killing of Palestinian children a heroic action?

Second, I respect and support the rights of native peoples to sue the bejesus out of the federal government and win land claims settlements, the right of native peoples to have their own legal system (as long as it does not violate the human rights provisions of the Canadian Constitution), and the rights of natives to sue both provincial and federal governments, as well as the church, and demand public apologies and monetary damages for the systematic abuse of native children that occurred in Canada.

But you don't support their right to actually regain control of the nation, as in India and other examples you listed. The main power structure of the Canadian government still controls all the important things.

CR

Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

Hamas hails a terrorist attack on students, in which eight were killed, as 'heroic', and a 'normal response'.

I just want everyone to be clear exactly what Hamas is. Everyone advocating some 'realpolitik' solution needs to realize that Hamas is not interested in negotiating for anything in good faith.

That is who rules Gaza - a group of murderers who cheer the death of students.

Or does merely being the underdog make it alright?

CR, what I've always asked, is not who is right, but what are you trying to do, and does it work? Whatever it is you're advocating, has it been tried in the past? Has it worked in the past? If it's not worked in the past, what makes you think it would work now?

So, CR, answer these questions.

What are you trying to do?
How would you achieve it?
Is there any evidence, from related cases, that this would work?

Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

Tell me, Beirut, when did the leaders of Israel call the killing of Palestinian children a heroic action?

I don't think they ever have. But I have heard Israeli leaders justify killing civilians, including children.

What happended today was murder and the people who did it should be treated as murderers.

So, in the game of semantics, I'll grant you that the Palestinians come off very badly, but I submit that Israel still kills more children than the Palestininas do. And regardless of the language used afterwards, a dead kid is still a dead kid, and mom's going to cry over the body no matter whether it was heroism or justification that blew her kid to bits.

Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

But you don't support their right to actually regain control of the nation, as in India and other examples you listed. The main power structure of the Canadian government still controls all the important things.

It's still Canadian soil, but huge areas of land, and I do mean huge, are under their authority. No roads go through, no resources are removed, no condos are built, nothing without their permission and a whole whack of cash going their way.

A mayor and some developers tried to extend a golf course on to land claimed by the Mohawk nation as a burial ground about twenty years ago in Quebec. It led to an armed confrontation, one policeman was killed, and it took the Candian army, who exercised the most incredible fire discipline you have ever seen - meaning no shots were fired - to bring the situation under control. No golf course was built. You don't mess with native land in Canada.

It's not just semantics. Words have power, and you know that.

You act as though Hamas is some group of downtrodden people who want to end oppression, but they aren't. They don't want an equal peace with Israel. That's why they call murdering students heroic, why they fire rockets at Israeli towns. The majority of what they do is, according to you, murdering.

So why do you support them against Israel?

So, CR, answer these questions.

What are you trying to do?
How would you achieve it?
Is there any evidence, from related cases, that this would work?

I'm not trying to do anything, but I wouldn't mind Israel going full bore into Gaza and maintaining strict control. The people there have proven incapable of ruling themselves in a civilized manner.

CR

Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

I'm not trying to do anything, but I wouldn't mind Israel going full bore into Gaza and maintaining strict control. The people there have proven incapable of ruling themselves in a civilized manner.

CR

So has that been tried before? Is there any evidence that this would work?

Note that I'm avoiding judgement here on who's right and who's wrong, but merely asking what your desired result is, how you plan to achieve it, and what the chances of success are.

Originally Posted by Beirut

It's not silly to condemn colonial ambitions that threaten indigenous populations. Getting the Belgians out of the Congo, the French out of Indochina and the British out of India were all good things.

There are more more than one kind of colonialism. Belgian Congo, French Indochina, and British India are not comparable to Jewish Israel because of the existence of Belgium, France, and Britain. If the Israelis were to 'get out' of Palestine, where would they go? They'd be in the same position that got them there in the first place, and I certainly can't imagine any good coming of that.

Fragony's comparison of the situation to that of Canada (or for that matter, the US) is more apt though still not equivalent. You'll notice that in our countries, even though the situation for natives has improved, we invaders are still here, and even in charge. Any solution to the Israel/Palestine problem needs to provide a way for both Israelis and Palestinians to continue living in Palestine. Of course there'll need to be a lot more maturity shown by both sides, which I don't imagine will be forthcoming any time soon. Meanwhile, it's a tragic situation that I don't know how to resolve.

I'm torn on how closely we can relate the situation to that of Northern Ireland. I can't think of any more similar situation, and the eventual sanguine outcome there is a nice comparison as it suggests hope for the Palestinian situation. But the differences are pretty significant, too, such as Britain not being surrounded by belligerent, devout Catholic nations far larger and wealthier than it during the Troubles.

Ajax

Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

It's not just semantics. Words have power, and you know that.

Absolutely. Words have great power. But there limitations to that power. A grieving mother, and I apologise for belabouring the point, will not see the power of words as anything but semantics when it's her kid going in the ground.

Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

You act as though Hamas is some group of downtrodden people who want to end oppression, but they aren't. They don't want an equal peace with Israel. That's why they call murdering students heroic, why they fire rockets at Israeli towns. The majority of what they do is, according to you, murdering.

I'm not sure I've ever sided with Hamas per se, I side with the Palestinians.

Likewise I think George Bush and his gang are inhuman criminals, but I love Americans.

Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

So why do you support them against Israel?

I support the Palestinians fighting against Israel. I think they are an oppressed people with no hope. I think they've been screwed over by everyone, everywhere for decades and no one is truly helping them. The whole peace process is an illusion, a fabrication as unreal as the friendship their Arab brothers profess for them. As a people they have a right to survive, and if that means taking military action against Israel, then I support that. I do not, however, agree that Israeli civilians should be targeted. Murder is murder, even in war.

Originally Posted by ajaxfetish

There are more more than one kind of colonialism. Belgian Congo, French Indochina, and British India are not comparable to Jewish Israel because of the existence of Belgium, France, and Britain.

I think they are comparable. In each case, people from one country went to another country and said, "What's mine is mine and what's yours is mine." Isreal was peopled by citizens of other countries. Russians, Germans, Poles, all manner of peoples who lived in other countries, decided to hop on a boat or a plane, leave where they were born and grew up, and set up shop on someone else's land, claiming it as their own.

Originally Posted by ajaxfetish

If the Israelis were to 'get out' of Palestine, where would they go? They'd be in the same position that got them there in the first place, and I certainly can't imagine any good coming of that.

Israel exists. It was a mistake to create it in the first place, but it's there now and displacing millions of people just isn't going to happen. Now a solution is needed. A big one.