Makedonian family members

[KhaziOfKalabara]

Just wondering about the historicity of the Makedonian family tree at the start of the game.

Protogenes - even I can figure this one out. Alexandros is documented , Apama I don't know about. But Krateros and Kalos - are they real, or are they "placeholders" to fill out the family tree and express the strength and beauty of the Antigonid state?

[Ludens]

I thinks it's rather because the game engine requires that all starting characters (apart from agents) are part of the family tree.

[KhaziOfKalabara]

Indeed it does, but really my question is why these people in particular? Was the father of Alexandros attested as Krateros, for instance, and do we know whether Antigonos II Gonatas had two brothers?

And more fundamentally, were they really Argeades? I thought the line terminated with Alexander IV in 309BC.

(I'm sure this has all been thoroughly debated within the EB team - I'm just interested in how these conclusions were reached rather than disagreeing.)

[Teleklos Archelaou]

At work now - will try to go through the internal forum posts and find the place where we set it up, then reply later.

[O'ETAIPOS]

Indeed it does, but really my question is why these people in particular? Was the father of Alexandros attested as Krateros, for instance, and do we know whether Antigonos II Gonatas had two brothers?

And more fundamentally, were they really Argeades? I thought the line terminated with Alexander IV in 309BC.

(I'm sure this has all been thoroughly debated within the EB team - I'm just interested in how these conclusions were reached rather than disagreeing.)

We were forced to do few strange things that are needed by engine.

Protogenes is obviously Demetrios Poliorketes, but we can't use name Demetrios, as the engine requires each FM to have unique name (for identification purposes), and Demetrios, son of Antigonos is obviously more important than a man who is already dead.

Krateros is known and well attested. He was half brother of Antigonos and his general on Southern Greece.

Yes it's true that Argeades dynasty in strict sense - as the direct line from old kings - died out. But it's not that easy. I've seen many theories about Antigonids origin, including some that they were some sort of side line of royal house and other that they were "simple" nobles from Beroia. But it's not important - Macedonians percieved their kings as more than simple rulers. They were descendants of Herakles and through this blessed by gods with skills needed for good kingship. This made king somewhat sacred but on the other hand if the king was not showing signs of god support there was possibility of detronisation.
Antigonids were accepted as they were succesful and thrus showed they are blessed - by this they became "Argeades" in symbolic sense, as descendants of Herakles and true kings.

[Mouzafphaerre]

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but we can't use name Demetrios, as the engine requires each FM to have unique name (for identification purposes)

Uhm... Why not DemetriosA, DemetriosB, ..., DemetriosK like you've done with the Romans?
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[Teleklos Archelaou]

It is my understanding that reduplication in descr_strat.txt of even *visible* names (not just internal code ones) within a faction will cause KTM's. That is why we have Diodotos and Theodotos for Baktria.

Thanks for beating me to the answer O'ETAIPOS!!

[Mouzafphaerre]

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Is KTM the nerdish for CTD?
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[Teleklos Archelaou]

It's not as bad but it's still bad. It's a "kick to menu" - where it usually gives an error message at least. Lots of mistakes in descr_strat.txt will give you a KTM instead of a CTD, thankfully.

[KhaziOfKalabara]

Antigonids were accepted as they were succesful and thrus showed they are blessed - by this they became "Argeades" in symbolic sense, as descendants of Herakles and true kings.

Thanks for your very complete and interesting answer! Inspires me to go off to do more research of my own.

It's a shame there will be no Antigonos III Doson, Demetrios the Fair etc. then - we'll have to content ourselves with a true alternative history then.

[Puupertti Ruma]

Sorry for the thread resurrection, but I didn't succeed in finding more info about these FM's. Wikipedia didn't give anything about anyone of them and I tried browsing Polybius, but not knowing where to search, I soon gave up.

So, Protogenes is Demetrios Poliorketes, which I already had deduced. By the way, could he be renamed Demetrius Poliorketes, thus circling the "no same name" feature of the engine.

Krateros was Antigonos' half-brother and general. Is Krateros from the mother's side or father's side or how are they so related?

Was Alexandros really Krateros' son or is that also a game-engine thingie? And who was he and what did he do? I don't remember if he has a biography trait, and if he does, nevermind.

Lastly, who is Kalos? Not probably a younger brother of Antigonos, or is he? Maybe just a fictitious character to fill up the family tree?

[konny]

It is my understanding that reduplication in descr_strat.txt of even *visible* names (not just internal code ones) within a faction will cause KTM's. That is why we have Diodotos and Theodotos for Baktria.

No, it doesn't: We have two 'Cnaevs' in the starting line up for the Roman FMs (Cornelivs Blasio and Cornelivs Scipio Asina). When we include spies, diplomats and generals there are even more, also with other factions.

[Ibrahim]

No, it doesn't: We have two 'Cnaevs' in the starting line up for the Roman FMs (Cornelivs Blasio and Cornelivs Scipio Asina). When we include spies, diplomats and generals there are even more, also with other factions.

then, could it be because of something else?, that it won't work?