Some greek names are wrong ( I think)

[Georgivs Tsililivs Graecvs]

Well sorry for being late I was sleeping. It is the difference of the time. Well I have the intention for this thing to be treated with seriousness.
At this 2 days I can't say so much exactly on the words and the phrases, and I apologise for this, because my job doesn't let me. I'm waiting some of my books which describe the difference between the dialects (slightly difference in pronunciation not so in grammar) and which dialect they speak in every hellenic region.
I can say that my intention is not to put the EB team in a spear point and stub them. I'm very proud of the job that they do by reproducing ancient greek, as I'm a Greek.
This thread has not to do with any kind of nationalism and such bad habits.

I could say that (as being in geographical order) that the dialects spoken at the classical era were: Doric dialect in Sparta (southern peloponnesos),in Epirus,Creta and in the southern part of aegean coast of Asia minor.
Ionic was the oldest, and was spoken in Athens, a little in Korinthos and mostly at the central part of the aegean coast of Asia Minor then changes to attic in Athenai or Athena later.
At last Aiolic was the dialect which was spoken in central Greece, Thessalia and in Makedonia and the northern part of the aegean cost of Asia Minor.

This a summary of the whole story. I'm waiting...

Because I think that maybe I seem rude (I don't have any intention so) I'll try to give an example which I think is wrong in the grammar.

Arche Seleukeia ~ ΑΡΧΗ ΣΕΛΕΥΚΕΙΑ Does it seem correct or no?

[Tiberius Nero]

Arche Seleukeia ~ ΑΡΧΗ ΣΕΛΕΥΚΕΙΑ Does it seem correct or no?

It is correct as a formation; now as to whether there is an attested adjective "Σελεύκειος, -α, -ον" (with the meaning of "Seleucid") or not, I cannot really say at the moment, I would let the team reply.

[Georgivs Tsililivs Graecvs]

Arche Seleukeia~ AΡΧΗ ΣΕΛΕΥΚΕΙΑ uses two nominative cases in an order
unacceptable. The 2nd must be in genitive or changed.
Also must show that goverments are of the people or the rulers not of the lands.

[Tiberius Nero]

It is supposed to be an adjective, not a genitive. Adjectives have to agree in case gender and number with the word they qualify, in this instance ΑΡΧΗ.

P.S. the accent in ΣΕΛΕΥΚΕΙΑ is supposed to be on the iota. You might be misreading it for "Seleucia", the city, hence the confusion.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I'm looking at the dictionary and the adjective is Seleukeios, -a, -on. Indeed both Arche and Seleukeia are both nominative, as is necessary. But we aren't looking at two nominative nouns here; it is a nominative noun and an adjective modifying it which is also in the nominative case. It is fine as it is.

"Also must show that goverments are of the people or the rulers not of the lands." We will name the factions what we think is the most appropriate name and will not be told what the restrictions or criteria are. We have discussed every faction name very carefully over and over in threads more than three years ago. They weren't just chosen willy-nilly.

[Georgivs Tsililivs Graecvs]

I think that you have misunderstood me. I don't do any assault to the
team. I didn't say that you have chosen the names without searching.
I'm not the wise of the tribe but as the romans said "de omnibvs est dvbitandvm".
I'd like only to help improving the game.
I can't do it now because I don't have the list ready and I need few days to do it 'cos' I'm working.
And to discuss about seleukeia. Koinon Hellenon seems fine to me. It desribes the state and the political situation of them.
Makedonia is fine describes fairly fine the geographical region written in many marbles and texts.
Epeirus the same. But both names don't show any characterisation for the people.
Ptolemaioi has to do more as saying Greeks... I don't know if it is a formal name of a state.
Arche Seleukeia seems little strange because says about "rule ~ Arche~ΑΡΧΗ"
which derives from someone (people,ruler etc) and 2nd word which is an adjective describing the kind of rule? whose was the rule?
Briefly I would say as I've seen through my life that every time words which are showing property,state, goverment we use as 2nd word the reference to the rule.
examples: (in greek because I don't know how to say it in english)
1st my city: City of Trikala, ΠΟΛΗ or -ΙΣ ΤΩΝ ΤΡΙΚΑΛΩΝ
in this city live people ,who has a "ruler", the mayor.
Now which seems more correct?
e.g. ΑΡΧΗ ΤΡΙΚΑΛΙΝΗ, ΑΡΧΗ ΤΡΙΚΚΑΙΩΝ or ΑΡΧΗ of the mayor?
the same can be said with koinon hellenon. "arche hellenike" or "arche hellenon".
I don't know also if you want names of states or names of the peoples' ethnicities.
e.g. Aedui,Romani but Koinon Hellenon,Makedonia
Maybe ancient coins can be resourceful here to prove which fits best or
titles in the marbles.
Texts used to be in koine most of them so I don't know if they are reliable.


Ending this post I'd like to say that I'm here to discuss and only that.
Not to start any flame wars with stupidities.
I'm human and so are you and "errare hvmanvm est".

waiting for replies but I won't reply in any other aspect until I've done the
list I'm saying a long time now.

[Tiberius Nero]

ΑΡΧΗ= power, authority. The Athenian hegemony was refered to as an ΑΡΧΗ in the sense we would translate as "hegemony" or "empire". I actually think I have seen in an ancient source the Seleucid Kingdom being refered to as an ΑΡΧΗ, but no idea where that was now. So Arche Seleucia is fine I guess.

[abou]

There was a huge amount of debate on how to title the Seleukid kingdom. It is an interesting thread, but currently located in the bowels of EBH.

It was felt that Arche best represented what it was - at least at the beginning.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I understand that you just want to help, but really, we have had many debates over these names and our naming conventions and how to be consistent but give the best name for each faction, etc. We did this years ago too. We are not going to change them now. We have discussed changing the Epeirote one about a year ago, but really after a long discussion felt it was better as it was. I can ***assure*** you that they will not change at this stage. It simply won't happen. We gave many options for this Seleukid one, and I leaned towards Seleukidai in the start, but we found epigraphical evidence that the governance (and this is not a place, but a system of empire that was unified as this faction) was referred to as an Arche, and that is why we went that direction. We wanted the adjectival form instead of the genitive too. We simply don't have the interest or time to go over these things all again out here - it's like any other aspect of the mod - we are also not going to make the internal forum archives public. If there is enough interest, we might dig things out to explain it to the public, but we don't have the time to give full explanations of everything we have done (this is totally volunteer-driven guys, remember - and we always would rather be working on new things instead).

[Tellos Athenaios]

I must insist, Teleklos: Seleukides I have not spent many hours validating the Attic Greek in the EU agains the TLG, my own dictionary & understanding, and Perseus only to see the same error again. /

Now I shall comment a little on Arche. It means quite a few things, but in context it is indeed the Rule or the Power of something/someone. Actually there is a case for Arche Seleukeias (abstracting from Seleukeia by taking it to refer to the entire empire, therefore translating into the 'Rule of Seleukeia' / 'Power of Seleukeia'); but the joy of languages in general and Greek in particular is that there is always another way of putting it. So a change is not yet required.

[keravnos]

For those who want to know more on ancient greek, check my sig...

[lobf]

I don't understand why there's so much hostility towards this guy. He's just trying to help, however ignorantly. You guys always have such a fit if someone asks you something you think you've already answered. Just take a pill.

[blitzkrieg80]

I don't understand how any person can logically think that their language hasn't changed over 100+ years, nonetheless 2000+ years! I don't care if you are proud of your land- that is just ridiculous, delusional even. Even France cannot claim anything near that and they have their illustrious French Academy, which indeed tries to enforce consistency and yet the word for computer is... wait for it... 'computer'!! Language is static in no way whatsoever (even if you wish it were). The best one can hope for is a snapshot of a given time and a specific circumstance.

[Georgivs Tsililivs Graecvs]

blitzkrieg you are ridiculous and pathetic. Read the thread, think (if you can)
and hold your answer for your own.
Thank you indeed.

[blacksnail]

I don't understand why there's so much hostility towards this guy. He's just trying to help, however ignorantly. You guys always have such a fit if someone asks you something you think you've already answered. Just take a pill.

Back in the wild old days threads like this were very often thinly disguised, heavily nationalistic screeds, so the "once bitten, twice shy" reaction on our part is understandable, if not necessarily the best thing. Also it is generally more productive to say "why is the Greek the way it is? I thought it would be different" than "your Greek is probably wrong, I'm just saying" - the former gets you an explanation and the latter gets the team on the defensive due to, again, the wild old days on this forum. This isn't always warranted but you have a different perspective on the matter when you've been on the receiving end of really bitter, ugly threads on the topic.

Georgivs Tsililivs Graecvs seems to be arguing in good faith with a legitimate interest in improving the mod which is exactly the right way to offer constructive criticism. I think the specific hot-button topic is what caused the ruffled feathers. It is very a good point to say we should have something addressing this issue in the FAQ, as this does come up every now and again. I'll activate the MAA signal and see about getting it into the FAQ.

[blitzkrieg80]

Georgi, you have no counterargument then? So, I am correct in my assumption that YOU think your language hasn't changed in 2000 years, eh? Or can we agree that language cannot be controlled? It should be a simple answer- you agree or you don't.

still waiting for some evidence and/or citation... as commented, constructive criticism is great, but speculation doesn't hold much weight. thus, i don't expect anyone to change their views on my recent statements

[lobf]

Back in the wild old days threads like this were very often thinly disguised, heavily nationalistic screeds, so the "once bitten, twice shy" reaction on our part is understandable, if not necessarily the best thing. Also it is generally more productive to say "why is the Greek the way it is? I thought it would be different" than "your Greek is probably wrong, I'm just saying" - the former gets you an explanation and the latter gets the team on the defensive due to, again, the wild old days on this forum. This isn't always warranted but you have a different perspective on the matter when you've been on the receiving end of really bitter, ugly threads on the topic.

Word, that's understandable. I just so often see hostility directed towards people who come in and try to help the mod constructively because you guys have heard it all before.

But this guy seems wrong anyways. So whatever.

[PershsNhpios]

Never mind the BlitzKrieg, Georgi.

I don't think he's in Kansas anymore.

Lobf is right, perhaps the EB team should all get together and make a;

"You know, we all learned something today", post.

[Ibrahim]

woe...don't bite his head off like that Blitzkrieg! people make mistakes.

[Tiberius Nero]

Georgi, you have no counterargument then? So, I am correct in my assumption that YOU think your language hasn't changed in 2000 years, eh? Or can we agree that language cannot be controlled? It should be a simple answer- you agree or you don't.

still waiting for some evidence and/or citation... as commented, constructive criticism is great, but speculation doesn't hold much weight. thus, i don't expect anyone to change their views on my recent statements

You must be thinking of some other thread, he never posted anything about the language not having changed in 2000 years, he just thinks some of the Greek phrases in EB do not follow proper syntax or that the grammar is wrong. Put some check on your reflexes, please, not every Greek who comes here to comment about Greek in the mod has to fall into the group you are thinking of.

[blitzkrieg80]

hmm. good point. if that is the case, then i apologize i have implied such when we all agree on that aspect.

Glenn- i like your joke.

[Tellos Athenaios]

No, the guys who are right get *cough* assimilated *cough*

The problem is that, if you continuously see LS threads -to beat a dead horse- then all of them start to look like the same 'Jeez not this shit again' even though there might actually be some interesting tidbit of knowledge inside them you never knew/heard of. It is the fact that EB members have seen their share of unfair critiscism; at times blatantly wrong, that tend to make it a bit more difficult discussing the repeating topics on these fora with the desired openminded view.

However, I am more than willing to discuss any (perceived) anomaly or oddity or inconsistency or error about any phrase of Greek within EB (even though many are not by my hand) for two main reasons:
1) I like the little nitpicky stuff about it. It's one of my favourites.
2) Whoever takes the time to sift out all errors (and it isn't very realistic to say there aren't any within EB, heck I spend a good deal of time & effort correcting some of the most glaring/obnoxious/embarrassing ones myself -- not to mention the fact other EB members had to put up with me nagging them about it ) surely deserves a cookie.
You start fresh, but after 500 lines of English with Greek and repeatedly encountering similar issues it quickly becomes a 'boring' job: it just takes so much more time, and it is in fact quite tiresome & repetetive to have to check everything.
So I'd consider ourselves lucky if someone (foolishly?) decided to volunteer.

[Ibrahim]

is that so?
then why aren't Sabaeans speaking south arabian, the persian persian, Karthadashtis punic, and germans germanic

[blitzkrieg80]

what are you talking about? the Germans will speak Germanic (I should know). the Puni will prob speak Punic and the Persians speak an Indo-Iranian dialect... or am i not getting your facetiousness?

[Watchman]

WIP, neh ?

[machinor]

Regarding pronunciation misstakes... the pronunciation of "kleruchoi" in "kleruchoi phalangitai" sounds a bit odd to me. To me it sounds like "klerukioi", with a "k" and an "i" instead of the "ch" (like in "Bach") which AFAIK is supposed to be a transliterated X ("chi").
Could be my misstake though.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Back to koine/classical issues again. chi, phi, and theta are pronounced in a different way in those two periods. As an example, the phi is more like the "p" in "top" (which has a slight aspirate at the end of it), than the "ph" in "phone". The same basic principle applies to theta and chi too.

Read more about the change in keravnos' signature link.

[sycander]

Btw, while I'm here:
I need to know how to say : "Hello!" in ancient greek
I don't think it was: "Kalimerà"

Thank you!

And, Blitzkrieg, please, do not say "french illustrious academy"... and also, in france, a computer is... un ordinateur.

[blitzkrieg80]

what's wrong with the Academy?

[sycander]

It's just a fourth age club now.