The most powerful, balanced overall armies

[Digby Tatham Warter]

I am an experienced player and have tried most factions, now I do admit that I favour the successors.
I win very easily most of the time with any faction I try, from pikes, Celts, horse archers, but I can't help thinking I'm glad I don't have to face the heavy, but quite well balanced Seluekid armies I put together, they seem particulary lethal against any resonable force I can think of.

For those who play multiplayer, does a well controlled, well supported Seluekid army kick butt against any other reasonably balanced army? I am not on the internet at home so have never found out how the real world works, although one would think someone facing a supported pike force will run around madly rather than face it head on?

Apart from personal favourites in terms of I love Celts etc , so... which armies(factions) do people think are the strongest overall and why. No 20 strong units of elite Cataphract horse archers , has to be fairly realistic, and only contain it's fair share of elites and different troop types in balanced amounts.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Well when I think of the thread title my mind immdiately sweeps to the successors in general (including Pontos) and the AS in particular. However the Saka and Parthians have also quite something to offer in the way of balanced armies. Though not really 'by default'; and of all factions mentioned I think the AS stands out with the apparent effortless way you can put up the very most dangerous armies the EB world ever saw.

You get not just a bit of everything (like most factions offer) with a strong emphasis on a few (if lucky) styles of warfare. You actually get every style of warfare on the map which is at least developped to 'advanced' levels and the infantry is over-all IMO the best in game.

And there is the final touch to the AS: the armies come cheap; but if you want you can go utterly crazy on rare and expensive and elite and specialist troops...

[overweightninja]

I think it really depends on how much money is available, and just how "balanced" these armies have to be. Some factions need big bucks to really shine (and of course the opposite is true too).
I've got to echo the comments about the AS though, although I have played very little multiplayer (only a few lan games against my rather EB-inept mates), the AS would be a safe choice for me, the range of units available is simply fantastic at virtually all levels.
Cheers

[russia almighty]

Probably the following: Rome, the Koinon and Carthage.

Rome has legions
the Koinon have hoplites
Carthage has the Liby-Punic series

[Cyclops]

Maybe its just my style but for me nothing rolls like the Macedonians.

From the lowest to the highest level they get well balanced armies and their elites are up there with anyone bar AS. I particularly like the Agrianes, but their cav is all good too, and the usual suite of cool diadochi pike and elites.

I find maco campaigns almost dull now, I just take a mouthful of my enemies and start chewing. There's enoyugh versatlity in their basic roster and regionals to battle anyone.

I think its a fair point made about the AS and I'd probably agree if I ever played them but I can honestly say they're the only faction I can't bring myself to start a campaign for. I'd rather be dead than Seleuc-ed.

[NeoSpartan]

From EB Multiplayer .81x I found several trends about Faction's strenghts and weaknesses, and interestingly a lot had to do with the budget you had to choose your army. (remember back then the Romani Cohorts imperatoria, Cohort Pretoria[sp] and Cohort Evocata were stronger than now).

From $10k to $20k
-Romani Polybian, Makedon, Ptolemoi, AS, Baktria, Epiros, Pontus, KH were very strong factions. They had an advantage due to having numerous troops with good armor, good moral and cheap cost. HOWEVER, cost limited the strength of their cavalry.

-Followed closely by the Getai. Suffereing due to lack of armor in many units.
-Followed by Romani Post Marian and Imperial. The higher cost of those units means that u have less men in battle, and ur cavarly is also weak.

-Here the Aedui/Arverni, Casse, Sweboz, Lusotana were at their weakest. Although they had large numbers of troops they were lightly armed, and all (exept the Sweboz) had OKis moral. So they took heavy casualties from javelings, and arrows. Also, because of the low $$ you could not train the more armored units, let alone train a good cavalry.

-We did not test HA factions but we did do a fight with them. From that I can say, HA could make a living hell out of Barbarians due to their lack of armor, mobility and ranged troops. Although the slingers are good, its hard to hit HAs when they do that circle. However, the others could stand up to the arrow barrage, especially post marian.


From $30k-$40k
-Here Romani Polybian shine as they can get really good Cavarly in decent numbers while still having a large strong infantry. (I lost 3 times in a row to them before MP died)

-KH, and Successors are still good.

-Post Marian and imperial get better as u can train more infantry. HOWEVER, your cavarly cannot stand up to anything the Gauls, Successor, and Polybians can throw at u.

-Carthege becomes good as u can now afford expensive pikes and good cavalry.

-Aedui/Arverni are now a force to recon with. With the new $$ you can mix in Neitos, Cornute(sp), Soldurus, and the dreadful Gaesatae! With ur light numerous troops AND you can also buy Helvetti phalanxes!!. Top it all with good Brenthim (sp) cavarly.
--I should not that the Gallic armies will always be short 2-3 units as you have to them up to afford Brenthim, Gaesatae and Neitos.
---The strenght of the Gauls lies is only killing ur forces enough so they get scare of the Gaesatae and rout thus severely weaking ur enemy. It is not uncommon to see Sammites, Thorakitai & Pezetaroi (sp) routing after ONLY suffering 45% casualties.

The Casse and AS can become really dangerous due to chariots as a good commander can have them take away the initiative of your cavalry wing, and force you to react to their movements. Also, a good commander will eventually tie you up and just have them hit the back of ur line/flank and cause uncontrollable routing. (I f*** hate chariots, I lost 3 battles to them before I figured them out)

Here we played a HA faction. They continue to be dangerous especially since they can afford good shock cavalry to add to the normal HA. HOWEVER to my astonishment a well armed cohesive infantry force can deal with them. Once the arrows run out they have to fight hand in hand. Hell I almost beat Parthia in MP with the remains of my Solduros, Neitos, Cornutes, Helvetii and 1 lonely General with 5 body guards.

Anything above 50K goes to AS in my book. Main reason, the Silver Shield pikes! So damn many, so damn strong, and backed up by Hetaroi, Agyrastidai (sp), and Cataphract, just forget it.

However... now might put Baktria next to them. Thanks to their super armored cataphracts, Pezetaroi and the Elite non-phalanks infantry (forgot their name).

Romani don't measure up due to their lack of cavalry. Barbarians get screwed as their elites are too few in number (60 Gaesatae against 120 Silver Shields). Maks, Epiros, Ptolemoi, and Carthege lack the strong cavalry wing.

Those are my conclusions fellas....

P.S and that is why I say: If you wanna test factions and units u gotta do MP. Custom comes close, but is not as good as MP. Let alone MP custom battles where u and ur buddy can test together without units doing stupid stuff. (as happens in Custom battles)

P.S.S and this is why I say that unit COST, and unit size is extremely relevant to comparing units!

[konny]

The best army has by far Karthago, because you can raise three different types of armies from her starting provinces:

1. A classical Hoplites army with their own Hoplites and the Greeks from Lilibeo, what is very powerfull in EB.

2. A Successor army with elite pikemen, African Theurophoroi and heavy cavalry from the core lands.

3. A Roman style army from Spain with light and heavy pila throwing shortsword-fighters, good skirmishers and cavalry of all classes.

Mix all three together with Numidian lights and Balearic slingers and you should be able to outclass your opponents.

[Meothar]

Konny, you could add

4. A Celtic army with Neitos and Naked Fanatics after you have conquered a base in Gaul (e.g. Tolosa). This seemed to be the strongest army I had as Carthage.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Carthies have a shining military of course, but not so good as the Mak one. I didn't play the Seleukids yet though.

The problem with the Carthies is that their Phalanx is extremely expensive while not as good as the regular Successor Phalanx. I employed a successor-style army myself playing them for my war in Egypt, and they tend to take quite a few losses.

The Carthaginian cavalry is very good, but not excellent. The Sacred Band Cavalry shines, but is outclassed by Hetairoi imo. Liby-Phoenician cavalry and citizen cavalry are good, but not as good as Thessalikoi or Prodromoi. The citizens are very slow! A disappointment for me personally are the Iberi Lanceari. They are extremely slow and are not very good in melee. From what I read in the description I think they deserve a little stat tuning.

The Iberian troops for Carthage do not impress me very much to be honest. They have the Loricati Scutari, which look cool, but are not so overall strong. They are not bad, and they hold the line, but they tend to take casualties easily. The Iberian Assault Infantry, I couldn't use them very much yet, but I don't understand why I can only construct them in my home territories. They are Iberian after all, aren't they? But I can't recruit them in Iberia. Why?

All over the western Med the Carthies get a very favourable unit roster to recruit. But as soon as you come to the east, there's nothing. You can't even recruit some Pantodapoi, or Militia Hoplites. That's a bit strange to me. And in Phoinike, the Phoenician homeland, you can't recruit anything at all (except artillery). Why?

Edit: I'm just curious about it, there's no criticism.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Well if I am correct, and feel free to doubt me here because I do so myself, there is relatively more model sharing going on with the units/models the Carthies use than with most of the other factions. That is: nearly all units of Carthage are on a model used by another faction for a different unit as well - meaning: you can't have that different unit because it will look like your 'default' unit.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

You mean I can't recruit Militia Hoplites because they might use the same model as my Carthaginian Citizen Militia? But I can recruit Libyan Heavy Spearmen were I can recruit Libyan Spearmen - They both use the same model I think, that of Thureophoroi.

[Tellos Athenaios]

There is something called 'Merc' trick which allows for 'overloading' models, but don't ask me about the finer points of it though.

[Olimpian]

I think the Marian Era roman army is pretty good.A core of about 9 legionary cohorts + spearmen to guard the flanks + some range troops + some elite for crucial actions + medium cavalry in reserve to use for a hammer-and-anvile later on when the enemy is tired and hasn't routed yet and then cutting down the fleeing foes = an infantry-based war machine that chews up "barbarians" and more.Worked and still works for me in my campaigns in Aegyptus,Levant,Armenia,Germania and now Mesopotamia.Only problem is dealing with those heavy cataphracts(very hard to kill) and maybe horse archers,but using bosphoran heavy archers against them(the HA that is) is usualy enough to make them a minor factor in battle.Phalanxes are a bit tougher to take care of,but a roman cohort can stand up valienly in guard mode before any phalanx for a long time before the cohorts situated to the flanks can rout the enemy's flank guards and then envelope and surround the phalax and anihilate it.Of course,a more ballanced succesor amy,with heavy cavalry and missile support is harder to beat,but the AI has little understanding of combined arms.Still,I recon with some extra and better-class spearmen on the flanks to hold back the heavy cavalry untill the infantry does its job,a roman army of this type can be a match for the best the successors can conjure up.

[NeoSpartan]

I think the Marian Era roman army is pretty good.A core of about 9 legionary cohorts + spearmen to guard the flanks + some range troops + some elite for crucial actions + medium cavalry in reserve to use for a hammer-and-anvile later on when the enemy is tired and hasn't routed yet and then cutting down the fleeing foes = an infantry-based war machine that chews up "barbarians" and more.Worked and still works for me in my campaigns in Aegyptus,Levant,Armenia,Germania and now Mesopotamia.Only problem is dealing with those heavy cataphracts(very hard to kill) and maybe horse archers,but using bosphoran heavy archers against them(the HA that is) is usualy enough to make them a minor factor in battle.Phalanxes are a bit tougher to take care of,but a roman cohort can stand up valienly in guard mode before any phalanx for a long time before the cohorts situated to the flanks can rout the enemy's flank guards and then envelope and surround the phalax and anihilate it.Of course,a more ballanced succesor amy,with heavy cavalry and missile support is harder to beat,but the AI has little understanding of combined arms.Still,I recon with some extra and better-class spearmen on the flanks to hold back the heavy cavalry untill the infantry does its job,a roman army of this type can be a match for the best the successors can conjure up.

In a low $$ game, and up to 35kg yes I agree with you. BUT in a game with 40k or above Marian and Post Marian ain't crap if ur facing a good player.

Hell I beat Post Marian with Aedui back when a Legionary could beat a Soldurus in .81x. Now?? s**t they can't stop me.

Like u point out the Marian/post Marian Romani's weakness is their cavarly, IF I can go and engage your cavarly away from ur spearmen with Hetaroi/Brenthim/Catapharact (sp), etc... ur a dead man
..As I can deal with them before my lines break (if they break).

The best you can do is buy Merc cavarly. Legionaries are cheap so u will have $$ for good cavarly.