As much cavalry as I can afford. Let's the armies move around quicker and basically ... the ai is stupid. All you have to do is execute an effective charge and they are decimated.
Re: Your ideal stack and how you use it
As much cavalry as I can afford. Let's the armies move around quicker and basically ... the ai is stupid. All you have to do is execute an effective charge and they are decimated.
Re: Your ideal stack and how you use it
Late units for the most part are better than any early unit. In that sense an ideal stack would have to by definition be composed of primarily late period units.
Theres standard and ideal..An "ideal" stack is not usually possible since that unit would require the necessary improvements in a city to create the unit, then created,moved and committed to enough battles and retrained accordingly to achieve the proper xp lvl (ie: 1 gold chevron)then placed in a stack with its similar brethren. Or perhaps the ideal stack contains mercs or another factions units, or is to expensive to actually create.
Standard is pretty much the same,at least for Catholic factions, and its standard because it works. (Except for ATPG of course)
x5-6 spearmen
x4-5 sword
x4-6 archer/xbow
x4-5 any cav u have
x1 officer
I guess you could go for more archers/cav. And of course,this isnt exactly what Id always send but it will get the job done campaign-wise.
Re: Your ideal stack and how you use it
Try increasing all these ideal stacks from 4 to 6 archer/xbow units. Placement is key, put these archers directly in front of your main line of infantry. Direct fire is far more deadly than indirect. You just have to be sure to withdraw them behind your infantry (and/or charge your infantry forward) just prior to the start of melee combat. Also, firing downhill is incredibly more effective than firing uphill or even firing across level ground. Look around for the biggest hill when placing your army, line up your archers to be able to fire downhill towards the likely line of advance of the enemy. With a gradual incline, the enemy will be just about ready to rout by the time you hit them with your infantry, with a big hill you can rout their entire army before they reach your lines. Also, I've found that lots of archers/xbow are an effective counter to enemy horse-archers, and are effective in sieges as well. Finally, in some of my most disastrous field battles, I've snatched victory from the jaws of defeat more often than not by setting all my missile units to 'skirmish' when my infantry line routs. If the enemy has few/no cav left, half doz skirmishing missile units can defeat a seemingly overwhelming number of infantry, especially if your bodyguard is still around to deliver the occassional charge vs exhausted/weakened/exposed enemy infantry units.
4-6 Cavalry, any type, for flanking/harassment/pursuit. Helps to have at least 2 of these be 'fast'. As for all cav stacks, I'm not a big fan. You can't use them for sieges unless you want to starve the enemy. Field battles are generally just speed-bumps on the way to my next siege, even when the AI manages to field full stacks. I much prefer balanced armies. However, having one or more mini-stacks (6 or so units) of cavalry/HA to run around crushing rebels or the occassional enemy incursion is pretty useful.
7-9 Infantry, best that you can get. I like to have 2 'shock' type for flanking (high attack/charge) with main line being defensive types. BTW, pikemen properly used are nearly invincible, improperly used they're pretty much useless. Try playing Scotland single player, read some posts on how to use pikes, and use them as your main battle line. Try various tactics and pause/zoom in a lot 'till you get the feel for how to use them. Once you get the tactics down, you'll love them. Admittedly, it does take a good bit more micro-management than it really should. The main thing is to figure out how to get them to keep their spear-wall up rather than switching to swords. Learn how to keep them from switching to swords in the first place, how to get them to switch back to pikes when their using swords, and how to maneuver them in close proximity to the enemy while still keeping their pikes down. If you take out enemy archers/artillery with your cavalry and keep a couple hvy infantry to protect your flanks, your pikemen should be able to destroy just about anything.
Not much difference having 4 rather than 6 cavalry, while 6 instead of 4 missile units is very noticable. 9 rather than 7 infantry can be essential against certain enemies.
Re: Your ideal stack and how you use it
My favorite stack depends on what I have. The Byzantines have some good units that are very hard to reach. So Mostly I have to use what I can get.
A normal early army looks something like this.
Spear Militia X 6 Used as a shield wall
Byzantine Spearmen work but don't get the free upkeep in a city
Archers X 6 Trebizond Archers are my favorite
Infantry X 4 Byzantine Infantry/Spearmen/Mercenaries/ Spear militia
I don't have much to choose from here.
Cavalry X 3 HA's
General X 1
If I really need to win the battle I'll put 4 family members as the cavalry because those are the only heavy cavalry the Byzantines can reach for a long time.
Gray Beard
Byzantium, Forever and Ever
Re: Your ideal stack and how you use it
Hey All,
In terms of game play vs realism, it is always interesting to see people listing "10 Polish Nobles" etc.
A few people have pointed out that they like to adopt more realistic armies & these certainly make the games more challenging. For example, ensuring that you have a certain number of peasants in there.
I must admit I love ranged weapons like the crossbow & it is so tempting to get 6 decent units in there, smash the AI & declare myself an equivalent of Napoleon in terms of generalship!!
Maybe an ideal stack should include 4-6 peasant units, 2-4 militia units, a few professional units etc etc. I think jamming in over-powered super units really is pushing it!
Henri
Arch Bounder & Cad
Re: Your ideal stack and how you use it
What's unrealistic about an all-horse-archer army? That's pretty much what the Mongols were and they were surely the "ideal" army to have during the Middle Ages, certainly the most effective.
Admittedly 10 Polish Nobles is pushing it a bit... but I wasn't trying to suggest a realistic army, merely an effective one. I did also suggest a realistic army which I do try to use, but as I pointed out it's expensive and not very effective so hardly ideal.
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Re: Your ideal stack and how you use it
Originally Posted by Henry707
I am totally agree with you, Henry707.
Ofcourse 20 units of Heavy Cav., Horse archers or 20 units of Polish Nobles would be ultimate army, but it cant be realistic. Even Mongols have large number of Cavalry, but lots of support troops (from their slave factions) as well. I always thought; Changing the "Mongol Rocket Launcher"s name to "Chinese Rocket Lunchers" and create Chinese looking engineers, or even add some "Chinese auxilary Militia" would be really realistic. (Remember "Korean Spearmen" from STW.)
But we talking about also costs of troops, and more of and realism. (I like to call it "Total War spirit")
So thats my main army, with the realistic facts:
* 3 of General's unit. They are good for charges, and refreshing themselves every turn, and i like to think as anyone of them commanding a part of the army like in real battles.
* 4 units of archers, or xbows. i actually prefer to not use any archers, but horse archers making me do it.
* 3 units of siege equipment. Trebuchets or Late cannons are preferable, but im ok with Mangonels as well.
* 6 units of Spearmen. Medieval armies generally based on Spearmen, even for horse archer factions.
* 2 units of swordsmen. On medieval ages, swordsmen were special troops, and you cant produce much of them. I wish there can be a top limit of trained units for every region.
* 2 units of Light Cavalry. (to catch the runners, or distract the lines of enemy archers while my men apporaching.)
Heavy Cavalry?.. Horse Archers?.. Nah, i am ok with my cheap army.
But its ok to put one of "Knights With Shining Armor" unit, to represent the noblemen of my faction on battlefield.
Yes, that army could take heavy casualties against horse archers or Heavy Cav. But im ok with that, because thats exactly what happened on medieval age.
Im also ok with losing a battle, flee my general and back for vengeance ^^
Re: Your ideal stack and how you use it
I noticed that the OP (B"Bob) included 4 units of pikes. I love pikemen but if they have not been modified I'd just as soon have drunken peasants. If their secondary weapons are removed then about all you need to defeat any other army, including Timurids are some very fast horsies -as in border horse or Alan (but I always have severl Hospitallers in such fights too). If you are attacking a city or citadel full of Timurids you don't even need the horsies - just about 10 units of Noble Pikemen will suffice. Well, you still need a general, just in case (a very rare one) that one of the pikemen will break - break and run that is, they break wind all the time even they are nobles.
An army composed of a general and jinetes in a field battle with few trees is another fun time. But, I admit it is very wearisome for me to micro manage these guys. The AI is much better at controlling them than I have been.
Nobody ever mentions fanatics do they? These guys are pretty fun and can pack a whollop. If you could just get them some experience and put armor on them they would almost be beserkers. I love to open gates with spys and have some fanatics run in to take out the archers on the walls and the spearmen near the gates and when all is safe send in the pikemen.
Re: Your ideal stack and how you use it
20 vardariotais @ 1.0 Vanilla XD
Gae Ma Ki Byung:
Possibly the earliest full-armored heavy cavalry in human history, deployed by the Goguryeo from the 3rd century A.D.
Re: Your ideal stack and how you use it
Sure, all cav for the mongols but I think it is unrealistic for a European power. I was just pointing out that my preference is for a more realistic army rather than a 'games console' style affair with all elite units.
Still, each to their own - I also enjoy using loads of horse archers too!
Henri
Arch Bounder & Cad
Re: Your ideal stack and how you use it
My Ideal stack changes depending on the type of armies I'll face. This is for non-HA factions
vs melee inf/cav armies:
4x Armored spears
2x Light/fast spears
2-4x Melee inf
2-4x Shock/AP inf
2-4x Foot archers (light or melee capable)
3x "volley" Horse Archers
2-4x Melee cavalry (mix of light and heavy)
1x General
vs Horse Archer armies
3x "trash" Infantry
3x Armored Spears
4x Heavy foot archers
2x "light" foot archers
4x FAST light cavalry
3x Cataphract type cavalry
1x General
I'm playing Broken Crescent these days and haven't touched vanilla for a while, so I'm at a loss for perfect stacks in Western Europe. Hell, I don't even remember who gets what units in vanilla anymore.
Re: Your ideal stack and how you use it
5 pipes
5 swords
I alternate the pipes and swords moving them into whatever the enemy throws at me (Rock, Paper, Scissors) Have to have pipes at the ends.
2-3 archers behind infantry (not much of a missile guy there always getting mangled. I especially don't like to use them on the offense-however I do like to use flamming arrows. The victims look like they got disintergrated by a nuclear blast. I keep them behind infantry for protection. Only put them in the front if it's uphill for the enemy. The rest I'll use are calvary.
I send 2 or units of fast calvary way out at a distance to the flanks and forward. then start walking them toward the back of the enemy of the enemy when they pass. I'll take out missles or smash into the back of enemy infantry where I need it. I'll also try to pin down their general until I can get pipes or my general on him.
2 units of calvary on the close flanks and back behind the lines for maneuverability - Like Grombeard said - I keep my general in the back center to plug up holes- also keeping a spear or calvary unit to protect him. It's pretty vanilla.
P.S. Besides all the b*!l $h!t I just wrote. My favorite situation is when I have artillery at a bridge crossing.
Last edited by Ed TW; 03-20-2008 at 19:16.
"This is no way for a leader to behave, but in battle it's beyond belief."
Re: Your ideal stack and how you use it
LC............................................................LC
.........................PSPSPSPSP.......................
......................P...A....A....A..P....................
...............HC.............G (C or P).....HC.......
Last edited by Ed TW; 03-20-2008 at 18:51.
"This is no way for a leader to behave, but in battle it's beyond belief."
Re: Your ideal stack and how you use it
My ideal stack :
Whatever is at hand...
I never manage to build a stack acoording to some guidelines... I usually make do with what my nearest training center is able to provide and what mercs are available as a complement...
Plus any "ideal" stack will depend on what kind of armies I'll be facing or the type of fight I will be getting into (field, bridge or siege/sally...)
Mainly I use to rely a lot on missile infantry (with long range attribute if possible) and a mix of light and heavy cav plus some spears or other infantry in support of the missile units...
I rarely use a full stack anyway but may combine 2+ half stacks depending on the opposition...
Philippe 1er de Francein King of the Franks
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