Re: Your ideal stack and how you use it
My ideal army would include.
half horse
half foot
Half of the horse would be missile cav
the other would be Heavy Cav
Foot army would include half pike/spear units
2 archer units
and then some heavy infantry , i think it would be 3.. sometimes no archers and more heavy infantry, and vice versa
Re: Your ideal stack and how you use it
Hey All,
In terms of game play vs realism, it is always interesting to see people listing "10 Polish Nobles" etc.
A few people have pointed out that they like to adopt more realistic armies & these certainly make the games more challenging. For example, ensuring that you have a certain number of peasants in there.
I must admit I love ranged weapons like the crossbow & it is so tempting to get 6 decent units in there, smash the AI & declare myself an equivalent of Napoleon in terms of generalship!!
Maybe an ideal stack should include 4-6 peasant units, 2-4 militia units, a few professional units etc etc. I think jamming in over-powered super units really is pushing it!
Henri
Arch Bounder & Cad
Re: Your ideal stack and how you use it
What's unrealistic about an all-horse-archer army? That's pretty much what the Mongols were and they were surely the "ideal" army to have during the Middle Ages, certainly the most effective.
Admittedly 10 Polish Nobles is pushing it a bit... but I wasn't trying to suggest a realistic army, merely an effective one. I did also suggest a realistic army which I do try to use, but as I pointed out it's expensive and not very effective so hardly ideal.
Re: Your ideal stack and how you use it
Ok, it's true. Technically.Originally Posted by Vladimir
You'll take my city with your all light cav stack? I don't think so.
You may win in heavily forested areas but I believe the attrition rate would not be in your favor.
In my mind a good summary would be: Heavy units hold the ground that light and medium units take. Move light and fast!
An ALL cavalry stack cannot take cities unless the enemy sallies.
However, I think this shows you that once the defenses have fallen, little infantry cannot withstand the mighty cavalry armies.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
As for forest battles, the next time I fight one with light cavalry I will post the devastating results. The only defense is the Giant Schiltrom, which reveals no flanks. In such a case, it's a standoff, because Giant Schiltroms are like turtles with iron shells. They can't attack you, so what's the point?
#Winstontoostrong
#Montytoostronger
Re: Your ideal stack and how you use it
Is there actually still a cav-in-tree penalty? In mtw1 there was of course, as there was for missles in the rain. But I havent noticed any such penalties in mtw2. obviously the trees break up the formations abit but they dont seem to die any faster/shoot any worse in their assumed adverse conditions.
Why would ne1 shiltrom an entire army of pikemen? putting ur eggs in 1 basket means that they all get crushed together. wouldnt it be better to have em in depth and at least a couple in reg form as a counter to your opponent flanking/surrounding ur force?
Re: Your ideal stack and how you use it
I think you misunderstand my meaning of Giant Schiltrom.
The troops are not actually in Schiltrom formation, but they are lined up in a circle with all their spears facing out, this removing ANY exposed flanks. In a forest versus light cavalry, that would be impossible to defeat without the use of ballistics.
Last edited by Askthepizzaguy; 03-14-2008 at 19:44.
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#Montytoostronger
Re: Your ideal stack and how you use it
20 vardariotais @ 1.0 Vanilla XD
Gae Ma Ki Byung:
Possibly the earliest full-armored heavy cavalry in human history, deployed by the Goguryeo from the 3rd century A.D.
Re: Your ideal stack and how you use it
Sure, all cav for the mongols but I think it is unrealistic for a European power. I was just pointing out that my preference is for a more realistic army rather than a 'games console' style affair with all elite units.
Still, each to their own - I also enjoy using loads of horse archers too!
Henri
Arch Bounder & Cad
Re: Your ideal stack and how you use it
My Ideal stack changes depending on the type of armies I'll face. This is for non-HA factions
vs melee inf/cav armies:
4x Armored spears
2x Light/fast spears
2-4x Melee inf
2-4x Shock/AP inf
2-4x Foot archers (light or melee capable)
3x "volley" Horse Archers
2-4x Melee cavalry (mix of light and heavy)
1x General
vs Horse Archer armies
3x "trash" Infantry
3x Armored Spears
4x Heavy foot archers
2x "light" foot archers
4x FAST light cavalry
3x Cataphract type cavalry
1x General
I'm playing Broken Crescent these days and haven't touched vanilla for a while, so I'm at a loss for perfect stacks in Western Europe. Hell, I don't even remember who gets what units in vanilla anymore.
Re: Your ideal stack and how you use it
My ideal stack (for the moment) has become an improved cavalry bodyguard general, 6 or so silver chevron Hospitalers, and the rest gold or silver Border Horse (with upgraded armor and weapon. If I only have the 6 Hospitable Knights then I have to be more carefull in attacking elephants and make sure I stick them in the posterior packyderm place. A pleasant secondary aspect of said army is that it often produces heroic victories, which is what the Scots are all about. (This is a very frugal army.) For fun throw in a unit of any kind of pikes (with secondary weapon removed) and watch the silly AI general charge them straight on with elan. It takes a while, but the pikes will shred the knights and kill three fourths of them before the general is killed and/or the knights route. I have baited the AI general with Border Horse and drawn him near pikes; when he gets near the pikes he'll charge or more wisely sometimes walk over to thrash the peasant pikes. If you have 2 pike units and make a wedge the effect is catastrophic and quick with almost no pike losses.
The Border Horse can easily destroy the heavier Mongol cavalry by using 2 together or in combination with an Hospitaler (or even mailed knights). The trick is to charge the heavier Mongol cavalry in the flank or rear - sometimes repeatedly which is easy usually because the Border Horse are so fast and disengage fast.
Re: Your ideal stack and how you use it
AS a disclaimer I thot Id add this about gunpowder troops. They are primarily offensive. They work great as attackers, but can easily become fodder in a defensive situation. Their nemesis is obviously a cavalry charge. So in a defense of 2/1 odds or greater... it may be expedient to have a true "front line" for the AI to charge instead. I experienced this first hand late last night when the Moors attacked with @ 3/1 odds against a full gun stack (no officer) I won still...(covering fire!!!) but it was way to close and I had less than 200 left afterwards.
PS I found out how to take screenshots! (only a decade behind e1 now hehe)
so Ill try to put those up once I get home.
Re: Your ideal stack and how you use it
5 pipes
5 swords
I alternate the pipes and swords moving them into whatever the enemy throws at me (Rock, Paper, Scissors) Have to have pipes at the ends.
2-3 archers behind infantry (not much of a missile guy there always getting mangled. I especially don't like to use them on the offense-however I do like to use flamming arrows. The victims look like they got disintergrated by a nuclear blast. I keep them behind infantry for protection. Only put them in the front if it's uphill for the enemy. The rest I'll use are calvary.
I send 2 or units of fast calvary way out at a distance to the flanks and forward. then start walking them toward the back of the enemy of the enemy when they pass. I'll take out missles or smash into the back of enemy infantry where I need it. I'll also try to pin down their general until I can get pipes or my general on him.
2 units of calvary on the close flanks and back behind the lines for maneuverability - Like Grombeard said - I keep my general in the back center to plug up holes- also keeping a spear or calvary unit to protect him. It's pretty vanilla.
P.S. Besides all the b*!l $h!t I just wrote. My favorite situation is when I have artillery at a bridge crossing.
Last edited by Ed TW; 03-20-2008 at 19:16.
"This is no way for a leader to behave, but in battle it's beyond belief."
Re: Your ideal stack and how you use it
LC............................................................LC
.........................PSPSPSPSP.......................
......................P...A....A....A..P....................
...............HC.............G (C or P).....HC.......
Last edited by Ed TW; 03-20-2008 at 18:51.
"This is no way for a leader to behave, but in battle it's beyond belief."
Re: Your ideal stack and how you use it
Five units Spearmen - not the militia kind (SP)
Four units Heavy Infantry (HI)
Four units archers - preferably the stake setting type (AR)
Two units crossbow (CB)
General (CC)
One unit heavy cavalry (HC)
Three units artillery (AT)
I can use this offensively, defensively, and for besiging.
................CB AR AT AR AT AR AT AR CB
........................SP SP SP SP SP
.....................HI.....................HI
.................HI..........CC.HC..........HI
Defensively - Just before the enemy is in sword range, the archers are moved behind the spearmen and artillerymen are routed then moved behind archers; if the enemy is inferior or equal in cavalry, CC and HC are moved to their respective flanks; once enemy infantry is in contact with SP, HI moves forward to attack on their flanks; if enemy is superior in cavalry - HI, CC, HC are used to defend against cavalry flank attacks.
Seiges - the force is divided into three sections, attacking three sides of the city/castle, simultaneously, thus spreading out the defenders (which are always far fewer numerically - if not, lay seige until they are forced to attack you. Note: If you have good missile cav, such as Polish Strelczy - lay seige with six of these, one general and one HC - if the garrison is six or more units, the garrison will sally out on the next turn and be annihilated.
Re: Your ideal stack and how you use it
My ideal stack :
Whatever is at hand...
I never manage to build a stack acoording to some guidelines... I usually make do with what my nearest training center is able to provide and what mercs are available as a complement...
Plus any "ideal" stack will depend on what kind of armies I'll be facing or the type of fight I will be getting into (field, bridge or siege/sally...)
Mainly I use to rely a lot on missile infantry (with long range attribute if possible) and a mix of light and heavy cav plus some spears or other infantry in support of the missile units...
I rarely use a full stack anyway but may combine 2+ half stacks depending on the opposition...
Philippe 1er de Francein King of the Franks
Re: Your ideal stack and how you use it
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
There is something to be said for keeping your forces small and maneuverable and in seperate stacks: It's called the Multiple General Benefit
Your forces are at least led by several captains. If one of them dies, a portion of your troops might rout, but the rest remain to fight. It's called not putting all your eggs in one basket.
However, I never do such a thing when my vulnerable family members are at stake. I always surround them with supreme defensive troops to prevent them from dying. In terms of fighting the enemy's most secure defenses, that is.
If you can take your single stack and divide it into two or three light, maneuverable forces and surround your enemy, but set the battle so the AI does NOT control reinforcements, it is as though you still have your one stack to begin with, plus 2 captains to boost morale!
If you need the AI to control your forces, Try to make your other captains infantry units, so they don't bum rush the enemy and die on spearpoints. I trust the AI to handle captains when they aren't mounts.
If you have several generals, for god's sake, split them up and control them, if possible. What's the point of having a general when he has no morale boosting capability? If thats the case, bring heavy cavalry instead, because thats essentially all he is.
Even if he's ALONE as a support unit, he won't rout when your first general does, as he is now his own general. I don't think reinforcement generals can use the rally command, but it would be sweet if they could.
Also, sometimes people say: 20 (insert favorite mounted unit) and declare victory.
Well hold on, there, hotstuff. That's all well and good IF you know how to HANDLE that many horse.
They are useful when outnumbered and given formed charges to work with... when THEY outnumber or equal the enemy, they stop being as useful because they end up crossing into each other's path and breaking each other's formed charges and generally being unwieldly to use.
Once your formed charge has been successful, with that many cavalry, often times people will just sit there and melee, or if they are somewhat smart, they use a few mounts to pull back and charge again... but in the meantime you have the equivalent of a unit of mounts dying every 15 seconds.
Not very smart use of your horses. Try this:
Break them up into 3 seperate stacks, give them each a general if possible. Now, lead your horse archers onto the battlefield first to impale the enemy and wear them out from chasing you. Soon, your reinforcements will arrive and you've run out of arrows. You can either have your HA leave the battle entirely without losing any men to casualties, or charge them in a suicide attack into the enemy rear when already engaged with your reinforcements.
I prefer having them leave the battle entirely, so you can reuse them over and over again.
The enemy will be wounded, perhaps exhausted from your initial horse archer raid.
The benefit of having only HA on the field for a while is that you have no other vulnerable targets, and they can strike and evade quite well. So you can wear out and damage the enemy without taking any other casualties and you have the entire battlefield to run around unimpeded. In fact, if your reinforcements take a while to show up... GOOD!!!
You could have 3/4 stack of horse archers, and a full stack of other cavalry and other kinds of troops. Lead with your horse archers, and command the reinforcements yourself.
By "routing" your own forces when they are done, you can bring more troops under your direct control. Bring all your horse archers and skirmishers on first, and then the heavy infantry and cavalry. Once they are wounded, shaken, and depleted by your missiles, charge into them with your cavalry from the flanks with a formed charge, to get them to stop advancing towards you, and then charge your heavy infantry into them while reversing your cavalry.
Hammer, THEN anvil, then hammer until they all die. It's a nifty strategy. However, I've yet to come across a predicament which would call for such effots or drastic measures.
Still, it's far more powerful than a single stack, or 2 stacks, one under AI control, and it's a great way to decimate the enemy without losing too many troops. Those danged horse archers...
Last edited by Askthepizzaguy; 03-20-2008 at 19:48.
#Winstontoostrong
#Montytoostronger
.jpg "Yesugey's Avatar"){kind=avatar}
Re: Your ideal stack and how you use it
I am totally agree with you, Henry707.
Ofcourse 20 units of Heavy Cav., Horse archers or 20 units of Polish Nobles would be ultimate army, but it cant be realistic. Even Mongols have large number of Cavalry, but lots of support troops (from their slave factions) as well. I always thought; Changing the "Mongol Rocket Launcher"s name to "Chinese Rocket Lunchers" and create Chinese looking engineers, or even add some "Chinese auxilary Militia" would be really realistic. (Remember "Korean Spearmen" from STW.)
But we talking about also costs of troops, and more of and realism. (I like to call it "Total War spirit")
So thats my main army, with the realistic facts:
* 3 of General's unit. They are good for charges, and refreshing themselves every turn, and i like to think as anyone of them commanding a part of the army like in real battles.
* 4 units of archers, or xbows. i actually prefer to not use any archers, but horse archers making me do it.
* 3 units of siege equipment. Trebuchets or Late cannons are preferable, but im ok with Mangonels as well.
* 6 units of Spearmen. Medieval armies generally based on Spearmen, even for horse archer factions.
* 2 units of swordsmen. On medieval ages, swordsmen were special troops, and you cant produce much of them. I wish there can be a top limit of trained units for every region.
* 2 units of Light Cavalry. (to catch the runners, or distract the lines of enemy archers while my men apporaching.)
Heavy Cavalry?.. Horse Archers?.. Nah, i am ok with my cheap army.
But its ok to put one of "Knights With Shining Armor" unit, to represent the noblemen of my faction on battlefield.
Yes, that army could take heavy casualties against horse archers or Heavy Cav. But im ok with that, because thats exactly what happened on medieval age.
Im also ok with losing a battle, flee my general and back for vengeance ^^
Re: Your ideal stack and how you use it
I noticed that the OP (B"Bob) included 4 units of pikes. I love pikemen but if they have not been modified I'd just as soon have drunken peasants. If their secondary weapons are removed then about all you need to defeat any other army, including Timurids are some very fast horsies -as in border horse or Alan (but I always have severl Hospitallers in such fights too). If you are attacking a city or citadel full of Timurids you don't even need the horsies - just about 10 units of Noble Pikemen will suffice. Well, you still need a general, just in case (a very rare one) that one of the pikemen will break - break and run that is, they break wind all the time even they are nobles.
An army composed of a general and jinetes in a field battle with few trees is another fun time. But, I admit it is very wearisome for me to micro manage these guys. The AI is much better at controlling them than I have been.
Nobody ever mentions fanatics do they? These guys are pretty fun and can pack a whollop. If you could just get them some experience and put armor on them they would almost be beserkers. I love to open gates with spys and have some fanatics run in to take out the archers on the walls and the spearmen near the gates and when all is safe send in the pikemen.
Re: Your ideal stack and how you use it
2 Generals
2 Heavy Lancers
2 Horse Archers
4 Spearmen
2 Pikemen
2 Heavy Infantry
2 Shock Troops
4 Archers or Crossbowmen
Theres shifts between...
...Heavy Lancers and Horse Archers.
...Pikemen, Spearmen and Heavy Infantry.
...Heavy Infantry and Shock Troops
- The army can be easily divided to two and then brought back together for bigger assaults.
- Because theres many types of units theres usually new "half army" available for recruiting fast.
- In russian and middle east you can get the whole cavarly from mecreneries.
- In europe you can get the whole infantry from merceneries.
Humans very easy to make and very hard to understand. - SS
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