Venezuela Sends Tanks To Colombian Border

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Hugo Chavez has ordered tanks to the Colombian border after the recent killing of a FARC leader by Colombian forces.

[ICantSpellDawg]

HAHA i knew it. Watch and learn, peaceniks.

[CountArach]

Maybe his Drug War will be slightly more successful

[Brenus]

According to what I heard he is sending tanks because military intrusion from the Contra-FARC units from Columbia...

[ICantSpellDawg]

According to what I heard he is sending tanks because military intrusion from the Contra-FARC units from Columbia...

An anti-terrorist intrusion into an unpopulated area of Ecuador. Another country entirely. Nobody else is a bit alarmed by Chavez? I, personally can't wait until he starts to attempt territorial annexation in South America. An excuse to support any sort of military action against Venezuela would be like Christmas morning.

[KukriKhan]

Geez. Jungles, then deserts, then jungles again. Can't we invade someplace nice, like Paris, or Copenhagen, or Montreal, once in awhile? Yanno, with running water, decent food, pretty girls?*

Having abrogated the Rio Treaty in favor of NATO in the Reagan years, the US has no treaty-triggered military obligations in the region. Chavez's rhetoric about 'dracula's fangs' notwithstanding, it's Columbia v Equador y Chavez-istan.

*j/k, o'course

[Caius]

All hail Chavez, dictator of South America.

[Beirut]

Geez. Jungles, then deserts, then jungles again. Can't we invade someplace nice, like Paris, or Copenhagen, or Montreal, once in awhile? Yanno, with running water, decent food, pretty girls?*

I`ll meet you there.

I know the best little Irish pub. Guinness on tap, dozens of scotches, and first rate Indian food, burgers, and fries. We`ll drink. We`ll eat. We`ll decide who to invade next.

As for Hugo being tankful... I dunno. I can`t imagine that what he`s doing with his tanks can be too much worse than what all the other people are doing with theirs. Hell, even we`ve got the tanks out. It`s like a big tank party and everyone`s welcome.

[KukriKhan]

I`ll meet you there.

I know the best little Irish pub. Guinness on tap, dozens of scotches, and first rate Indian food, burgers, and fries. We`ll drink. We`ll eat. We`ll decide who to invade next.

Now THAT's a summit to be proud of. When the next prez appoints me Ambassador to Canada, that's my first stop.

[Tribesman]

HAHA i knew it. Watch and learn, peaceniks.

errrrrr...its Columbia that attacked another country you know
When did you ever say that you knew Columbia would attack another country ?

An anti-terrorist intrusion into an unpopulated area of Ecuador.

Thats an act of aggression and a violation of soveriegnty isn't it , its not surprising that neighbouring countries are pissed at Columbia .
What was it the Equdorian president said about Uribe and his explanations ? ....errrr...He is either lying in his account of the incident or the Columbian military has lied to him .

Nobody else is a bit alarmed by Chavez?

Nope not in the slightest , why are you alarmed ?

An excuse to support any sort of military action against Venezuela would be like Christmas morning.

Are you insane , or do you just like wars ? actually forget the second bit , its covered by the first .

All hail Chavez, dictator of South America.

Caius , what makes you think that Uribe is any better than Chavez ?

[Marshal Murat]

It's a textbook guerrilla campaign, this is.
Like the Vietcong in Cambodia, IRA in Ireland, Mujahdeen in Pakistan, UNITA in Angola. You never launch a guerrilla campaign in the country you wish to liberate, but retreat across the border at every opportunity.

It prevents retaliation, but ensures that you can continue strikes. It's a reflection on Ecuador that they would allow terrorists (insurgents according to Chavez) to use their border as a defense for kidnapping and killing.

I think Chavez is upping the ante and showing that he represents the 'Left Latin America' against the U.S. bloc. This is pure showmanship and nothing else.

Many excuses to invade Venezuela would be dangerous, since the Venezuelans, while not always happy with Chavez, would only be happy to fight the 'Imperialist invader'. We'd have to set up a insurgency group to fight Chavez, maybe have some bases in Colombia and run them off the drug trade.

I think that Uribe is more connected with reality than Chavez is, more practical. He's also free-market, Harvard educated, and doesn't simply bash the local superpower but tries to improve his country.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Right - he supports the FARC in their attempts to overthrow the Columbian government. He literally called for this to happen. I believe that he is angling for a conflict in order to exert control over the continent. Territorial ambition is written all over his actions.

Why is this so hard to see? Do you read the words that he uses? He sounds like a madman. Oh. I forgot, he dislikes the U.S., so everything that he says must be gospel.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

He sounds like a madman.

I think that's the point. He's probably not strong enough for overt aggression, so talking tough is the only way he can get what he wants.

[spmetla]

It frustrates me to no end that Chavez is itching for a fight. While on one hand I see his right to assert that Venezuela's borders should not be crossed as the Ecquadorian border was his defense and probably active support of FARC in Columbia is of course a giant problem for Columbia. Columbia has enough problems that they don't need or want to fight another war but I could see Chavez trying to liberate Columbians from themselves and perhaps create another Gran Columbia/Bolivia or something.

I just hope this is remains posturing and saber rattling, Columbia's army and airforce is not really equiped for conventional warfare and no doubt the US would get draw in and send a few carriers and probably some marines.

[Tribesman]

Right - he supports the FARC in their attempts to overthrow the Columbian government. He literally called for this to happen.

Actually he calls for a negotiated settlement to the long running civil war , but don't let that get in your way .

He sounds like a madman.

Thats because he is a madman , but he ain't stupid .
Don't you think your president sounds like a madman too ?

[ICantSpellDawg]

It frustrates me to no end that Chavez is itching for a fight. While on one hand I see his right to assert that Venezuela's borders should not be crossed as the Ecquadorian border was his defense and probably active support of FARC in Columbia is of course a giant problem for Columbia. Columbia has enough problems that they don't need or want to fight another war but I could see Chavez trying to liberate Columbians from themselves and perhaps create another Gran Columbia/Bolivia or something.

I just hope this is remains posturing and saber rattling, Columbia's army and airforce is not really equiped for conventional warfare and no doubt the US would get draw in and send a few carriers and probably some marines.

You see it. Tribesman doesn't. JAG doesn't.

[Tribesman]

You see it. Tribesman doesn't. JAG doesn't.

What I see is that Chavez approach to foriegn relations and his crappy rhetoric is absolutely no different from that of Uribe or Bush .

[seireikhaan]

An excuse to support any sort of military action against Venezuela would be like Christmas morning.

Dear God. Tuff, that would be one of the most ill advised things we could do. Reasons:

A) A large power vacuume would be created by the absence of Chavez if we destroyed his government.

B) Historically, whenever power vacuumes have been created, some kind of organization/group of people invariably rises to fill the void, sometimes worse than the previous one. Example A-Taliban in Afghanistan.

C) Unlike Iraq, Venezuela and the surrounding countries will have significant issues with Drug lords who will become immensely powerful by filling in bits of the vacuum created by the absence of Chavez. They will flock to Venezuela and the surrounding areas because they know they have all but free dominion.

D) Unlike Iraq, US troops would end up having to chase insurgents and guerillas into jungles, harsh terrain, and somewhat fluid borders which will end up becoming defined by the power of local drug lords.

The only good side, in comparison, would be the lack of religious fanaticism, but we've already seen from 'Nam that guerillas can kick some serious tail when defending their homeland, especially when the terrains suit them so well, from the 'Imperialist' invaders even when not motivated by religion. Not to mention we're already spread thinner than we'd like because of our efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan, not to mention our other military committments all around the globe.

Now, I'm by no means vouching for Chaves; he's a tyrant and a dictator who'll probably end up making himself "El Presidente" for life before its all over. But military action against him is simply impossible right now, and probably won't be unless we either vastly expand our military numbers or else withdraw troops from either Iraq or Afghanistan. Frankly, I don't see any of those things happening any time soon.

[ICantSpellDawg]

What I see is that Chavez approach to foriegn relations and his crappy rhetoric is absolutely no different from that of Uribe or Bush .

You think Bush wants to be the leader-for-life of Iraq? You think Uribe wants much more than to make Columbia a legitimate whole nation?

no

But I think Chavez wants much more power.

[spmetla]

I think when we start having to say that someone's foreign policy skills/rhetoric are on par with Bush then perhaps we need to lessen our support of that person. Just because Bush did it does not make it right, Bush screwed up big time and on a tremendous scale. My support for the current operations in Iraq and Afghanistan are more out of a feeling of obligation to the Iraqi/Afghani people for screwing up their country more than anything else.

Violently spreading socialism is as stupid an idea as violently spreading democracy. It's wrong, it's stupid, and it will never work as intended. I hate the former US policy in Latin American and Africa where we supported violent dictators or funded anticommunists because it screwed up those regions big time but just because the US and the USSR used tactics lack that in the past does not condone the actions like that by other countries.

EDIT:
Additionally any US support of the Columbia army would probably be aerial as well as naval. Venzeuala's navy is small but so is Columbia's and I don't think the US would take kindly to any sort of naval war near the Panama Canal. Columbia does not have aircraft of the quality or quantity to combat the the much more modern though fairly small Venezuelan air force. The US already has advisors training the Columbian army and the only additional boots on the ground support that I could envision would be guys to coordinate US air assests with Columbian army elements (Special Forces) and possibly mechanized Marine elements if the Venezuelans somehow are able to threaten Panama (I don't think Chavez would be above siezing the canal if he could).

[Ice]

Oil Prices anyone?

[Brenus]

“We'd have to set up a insurgency group to fight Chavez, maybe have some bases in Colombia and run them off the drug trade.” You mean, like for Nicaragua and the Contras? Didn’t work so good that plan… It's in the list of the lost and failed CIA operation, along side the Pigs Bay…

“He's also free-market, Harvard educated, and doesn't simply bash the local superpower but tries to improve his country.” And prolong one of the longest guerrillas on his territory. Even Peru succeeded to get rid of it own… And from when to be a Free-Market (the right to exploit people freely but with the police and military protection in case of a poorest riot) and Harvard education is a proof to be democratic? Improving what, exactly: Education, health, social services? Or huge incomes for the richest?

“he supports the FARC in their attempts to overthrow the Columbian government. He literally called for this to happen. I believe that he is angling for a conflict in order to exert control over the continent. Territorial ambition is written all over his actions.”
“I could see Chavez trying to liberate Columbians from themselves”
Do all these things remind me some country, which not so long time ago was calling for Political changes, financed guerrilla movements and provided military help to others if there were anti-communist? Was not this country helping Talibans and various dictators and killers like in Angola, Chile, Peru, Guatemala and others, invading some island? And even country as I recall now… Forget the name…

“no doubt the US would get draw in and send a few carriers and probably some marines.” G. W. Bush is just dreaming of such opportunity… It the prefect Gulf of Tonkin incident… Again remind me something…

[Fragony]

What the farc.

If they catch this dutchie



Tell her that I am not angry at her, some actually believe what they are tought at school socialist teachers can be very convincing.

[Xiahou]

Here's a newer article. I think it does a much better job of demonstrating what a twit Chavez is. He's really cruising for a bloodied nose. If he actually tries anything, I suspect he's going to see a lot of his expensive new toys all broken.

[Fragony]

A capital mistake alright

Where's JAG? He enlisted?

[Tribesman]

I think it does a much better job of demonstrating what a twit Chavez is. He's really cruising for a bloodied nose. If he actually tries anything, I suspect he's going to see a lot of his expensive new toys all broken.

Funny isn't it , you could replace the word "Chavez" with "Bush" and it would be true .

You think Bush wants to be the leader-for-life of Iraq?

Did you notice the bit earlier where I said Chavez isn't stupid ? well Bush is , he did an action where his legacy will be getting the office trying to run Iraq for the forseeable future (or until the Iranians take the job on fully)

You think Uribe wants much more than to make Columbia a legitimate whole nation?

Interesting , Uribe wants a lot more than that , (I notice you avoid term limits in his case ) .
We shall see what Uribe really wants and how badly he wants it when the allegations of links to murder , drug trafficing , extortion , terrorism and kidnapping are sorted (not to mention very big election fraud) .I wonder if he will again claim that such things are no reason to step down from the job .
Come to think of it doesn't Uribe seem like a new Noriega sometimes .

[Quirinus]

Oh dear. They're FARCk-ed now.

/obviousjoke

[HoreTore]

Geez. Jungles, then deserts, then jungles again. Can't we invade someplace nice, like Paris, or Copenhagen, or Montreal, once in awhile? Yanno, with running water, decent food, pretty girls?*[/i]

You're more than welcome to take northern, western or southern Norway off our hands, you know...

And nobody will care if you terrorize and pillage the locals!

[ICantSpellDawg]

Interesting , Uribe wants a lot more than that , (I notice you avoid term limits in his case ) .
We shall see what Uribe really wants and how badly he wants it when the allegations of links to murder , drug trafficing , extortion , terrorism and kidnapping are sorted (not to mention very big election fraud) .I wonder if he will again claim that such things are no reason to step down from the job .
Come to think of it doesn't Uribe seem like a new Noriega sometimes .

BS - he doesn't seem like a totalitarian hate-monger at all. I think that you are either misrepresenting him on purpose or just ignoring the reality.

Where are you getting this? That congressional modification was for re-election.

Uribe is not a bad guy at all. He enjoys broad popular support and seems to be interested in a more stable Columbia. I'm sure that he is prone to some level of corruption - like every politician in South America - but the idea that he needs to be overthrown and replaced with Chavez is insane.

***This just in - the U.S. can't support any center right leaders because people like Tribesman will claim that they it is as bad as supporting Saddam and the Taleban (which were egregious errors).

[Seamus Fermanagh]

For a dictator or -- as in the case of Chavez -- quasi dictator, it is important to remind yourself of their own internal motivations.

Remember:

1. Flaming socialist or not, Chavez is not stupid.

2. Chavez does wish to continue in power and to do so with the support of (a workking majority of) the masses and not simply through a military/police state -- he's thinking Cuba not Belorus or PRK.


So:

Until his troops violate the border AND stay across the line for more than a short raid, he's not committed to the kind of overt aggression that the USA and others must oppose. The USA is neither in a position to, nor would be able to generate a lot of support for, a large-scale U.S. response to a 72-hour border raid. Send a CBG nearby to show the flag, but that's about it. Verdict: little to risk for Chavez.

His referendum on permanent power was rejected. His biggest name ally has resigned due to ill health. Some of his support must have eroded and the external threat of US imperialism is not credible enough to motivate -- so Colombian excess/threat/inability to control the border is a ready made problem he can seem "decisive" in solving -- when did a little "machismo" image harm a S.A. politico? Besides, you have to get the tracks muddy once in a while for training anyway. Verdict: a nice little external threat -- especially where you don't HAVE to actually attack -- is a useful tool for the political strongman.

The kerfluffle might knock up oil prices a notch. Since most of the revenue Chavez uses to buy domestic political support is funded by the nationalized oil revenues, any further increase in price is unlikely to make Chavez sad. Verdict: oil prices waxing means domestic opposition waning for Hugo.

Messing with Colombia won't bother Chavez a bit. An unstable Colombia actually makes him seem safe & secure by comparison and it is Colombia that has the cozier relationship to the USA. Verdict: a little political hay can be made at the expense of El Norte -- and done on the cheap.


Therefore:

Chavez is still playing the international community to promote the cause of Chavez. This is just another round in the game. We'll see how much he gains and whether he can use the gains to get his referendum through this time. Chavez seems VERY interested in institutionalizing himself and his regime and THAT, I suspect, is the real game.