Attack on Ghaza
Re: Attack on Ghaza
Terrible and all but what is Israel supposed to, Hamas will never stop launching rockets the need to kill is too strong.
Re: Attack on Ghaza
Well, something else, obviously... What can Israel do if Israel stops killing civilians uselessly? (and the same for Palestine(s)).
Last edited by Tristuskhan; 03-05-2008 at 13:46.
"Les Cons ça ose tout, c'est même à ça qu'on les reconnait"
Kentoc'h Mervel Eget Bezañ Saotret - Death feels better than stain, motto of the Breton People. Emgann!
Re: Attack on Ghaza
Something else, like what? Every time they retreat the rockets start flying again can't blame Israel for trying to put a stop to it, if that costs a few human shields then so be it, isn't Israel that's hiding behind their civilians, they stand in front of theirs.Originally Posted by Tristuskhan
Re: Attack on Ghaza
Have you noticed that the rockets tend to start flying when they respond like this too?
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: Attack on Ghaza
When they leave? Yes, I did. That wasn't what you meant of course but rockets land on Israel every day regardless of what it does. They shouldn't leave if people want to call that occupation that is fine, because that's what it would be, but it's a necesary evil I think. I feel sorry for the sandwiched ordinary palestinians but Israel doesn't have to put up with all this.
Re: Attack on Ghaza
Hmm, the jews in Israel are mostly immigrants, I wonder if you will support the muslims too if they decide to declare a new state in Holland?
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: Attack on Ghaza
I thought Gaza was still a castle.
iow: Meh
Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
Ik hou van ferme grieten en dikke pinten
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Re: Attack on Ghaza
Of course I won't, don't want to go into that, I don't know nearly enough of what people that do have written dozens of novels about so I won't pretend I do, I think we should focus on how we, well they, can stop Hamas from firing rockets and imho all options have been tried.
Re: Attack on Ghaza
Not all options. I remember discussing this with you last year, and suggesting some ideas. IIRC I said that Hamas was, back then, currently in politically victorious mood, and that it would be a good idea for Israel to seize the moment and engage in political discussion with them. I also said that, if this opportunity wasn't used, then either the political wing will once more be overtaken by the paramilitary wing, resulting in renewed violence, or worse still, Hamas will be broken up if the IDF went in in force, leaving Israel with no-one to talk to and rockets still flying.
Re: Attack on Ghaza
I remember, but that has been tried as well, there have been secret meetings between Israeli and Hamas military leaders, where the Israeli's concluded that there was room for negotiation. But I don't think Hamas is as a tightly structured organisation such as the IRA, where anyone is really in control. Take the rockets, they know they can't win but they fire them anyway, is it really a political goal they are persuing?
Re: Attack on Ghaza
The British model is what Israel should be pursuing. Show Hamas's audience that the political route produces results. Take blows if necessary to avoid strengthening the paramilitary wing with retaliation. Win over the political wing, then use them to help push down the paramilitary wing. Even if the organisation is fragmented to some extent, it was still sufficiently centralised for this approach to work. But that was given up when Israel imposed the embargo. After the sanctions, there is no way the political wing of Hamas will come close to regaining ascendancy for the foreseeable future. Yet another example of Israel acting within its rights as a nation state to protect itself, but actually doing worse in the long run. Thank goodness my governments were less short-sighted.
Re: Attack on Ghaza
But Gaza is the battlefield of a propaganda-war and whatever feeds the flame will continue to do so. Israel does exactly what they want them to do, and they will ensure that Israel will continue to do what they want it to do, go in and shoot stuff, but that's the only way. If they can blow hamas up from within, what remains of it will be blown up from within is well, and we didn't get anywhere. We aren't getting anywhere now, but with an occupationforce it can be kept to a minimum.
Re: Attack on Ghaza
Of course they can. History have plenty of examples of superpowers being defeated by people flinging rock(et)s at them. Partial or complete. Most rebellions/guerilla wars start off like this, and many of them have won. The russian revolution, for example, started by terrorist actions like assassinations, bank robberies, bombings etc.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: Attack on Ghaza
Let me fill you in on what we discussed earlier, Pannonian brought up that talking to Hamas was a good idea because it's a single entity in contrast with the various sections that make the life of america in Iraq so difficult, completily won me over but is it really a single entity, as in being a well organised machine, it is probably more of a gang that's supported by the powers beyond any influence of Israel. They can easily maintain that situation, and the whole islamic world is looking at this tiny piece of desert.
Re: Attack on Ghaza
Well, the russian revolutionary movement certainly did not start out as a single, coordinated movement, and they were divided even when they succeeded.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: Attack on Ghaza
They are trying to isolate Israel, and the weapon is propaganda. I take these russian revolutionary's used tactics as well, maybe others but no tv and internet then, but probably close in it's own way. Can't believe so many fall for it. Even more amazing how the jew-runned media is campaigning against the islam but that's a sidethought.
Re: Attack on Ghaza
huh?
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: Attack on Ghaza
The Israeli government consists of a bunch of oversized babies.
"You killed five citizens of my country, now I'll five of yours."
Since Israel is supposed to be the "civilized" nation in the region, they should act civilized too.
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Re: Attack on Ghaza
huh what? Be a little more specific did it came from your belly or your lungs
Re: Attack on Ghaza
As in "huh? What do you mean?"...
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: Attack on Ghaza
Too bad they are only getting their childish revenges and have no fond idea of living peacefully next to their Palestinian neighbours.
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Re: Attack on Ghaza
Well I said it very clearly Israel is being isolated in a propaganda-war.
Re: Attack on Ghaza
Well it was enough of a centralised entity at that point. Hamas had won the last elections, they'd successfully expelled the Fatah armed forces from Gaza but the paramilitaries were still, at the time at least, content to allow the political wing to speak for them. It wasn't the best possible time for Israel to talk to them, as they'd just enjoyed military success that might have gone to their heads, but it was probably the last chance in quite a while for the politicians to assert themselves over the fighters. I warned at the time, IIRC in a reply to Seamus, that Israel had to take the chance then or the extremists will take over.
This past year proves, yet again, that wielding the stick of moral outrage without the carrot of political compromise just doesn't work. Complain all you want about how Israel is expected to yield on everything while the pansy liberals give the Palestinians all the leeway they want, but the fact remains that the Palestinians aren't in any position to do anything at all. The only thing they can proactively do is throw stones or fire rockets around, and not very effectively at that, and so that's what they do. Israel is the only party with the power to make anything happen, so any effective solution is going to rely far more on Israeli action than Palestinian.
Re: Attack on Ghaza
Good but it isn't like we are raising a child
Re: Attack on Ghaza
Huh. Apparently when you ceaselessly launch rockets at another state, they eventually get mad and try to kill you.
Even more amazing is that some people are calling that action 'childish'. Too foolish to warrant a response.
Pannonian - by British model do you mean the Northern Ireland peace process? You are aware the situations are hardly comparable?
And what gives you cause to believe the political wing of Hamas is any different from the military wing?
CR
Ja Mata, Tosa.
The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder
Re: Attack on Ghaza
Are you talking about Palestinian rockets into Israel or Isreali rockets into Palestinine?
Israel vs. Palestine: Round 6437
Ding!
C'mon, lemme at 'em
Unto each good man a good dog
Re: Attack on Ghaza
Even more amazing is that some people are calling that action 'childish'. Too foolish to warrant a response.
Talking of foolish , you do realise why the action is childish don't ya rabbit ? It is because it doesn't work , they know it doesn't work , they have seen many many times that it doesn't work , but like an obstinate child they are going to ignore all they should have learnt and make another doomed attempt .
The funny thing is that many of the people of Israel are not as childishly stupid as their government is , the people of Israel want talks with Hamas not another doomed incursion .
The people know that every failed venture weakens the State further and makes them look very bad , it is about time the Israeli government grew up and acted accordingly .
Re: Attack on Ghaza
Talking of foolish , you do realise why the action is childish don't ya rabbit ? It is because it doesn't work , they know it doesn't work , they have seen many many times that it doesn't work , but like an obstinate child they are going to ignore all they should have learnt and make another doomed attempt .
The funny thing is that many of the people of Israel are not as childishly stupid as their government is , the people of Israel want talks with Hamas not another doomed incursion .
The people know that every failed venture weakens the State further and makes them look very bad , it is about time the Israeli government grew up and acted accordingly .
I agree - the Israeli actions are heavy-handed and do not work. They simply put more fuel on the fire.
I support them in defending themselves, but not by killing 100 people (46 of whom probably had nothing to do with it.) Do you see Tribesman? I support the Colombian action, I support coalition action in Iraq and Afghanistan, but not these types of draconian actions which seem to target men, women and children carelessly and out of vengeance.
Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 03-05-2008 at 21:33.
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