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Thread: Charitable Contributions In Relation To Ideology

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    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Charitable Contributions In Relation To Ideology

    Interesting (and short) article.

    Now I’m not throwing stones, because people in glass houses should avoid the practice, but this article is spot on. "Conservatives" give disproportionately more to charity than their "Liberal" counterparts. I’m not one of the charitable you may say - and it’s true, I’m not - I’m also technically a secular conservative, so this report is still accurate (there is a line about how the very small amount of secular conservatives are the most miserly of all, but it still doesn’t outweigh the massive difference in charitable contributions).

    Long story short, I need to give to charity and become religious so that I can have some self respect

    Keep in mind this is in the U.S.A., where most conservatives believe in Jesus Christ.

    What do you think?
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    =======================================================
    March 27, 2008
    Conservatives More Liberal Givers
    By George Will

    WASHINGTON -- Residents of Austin, Texas, home of the state’s government and flagship university, have very refined social consciences, if they do say so themselves, and they do say so, speaking via bumper stickers. Don R. Willett, a justice of the state Supreme Court, has commuted behind bumpers proclaiming "Better a Bleeding Heart Than None at All," "Practice Random Acts of Kindness and Senseless Beauty," "The Moral High Ground Is Built on Compassion," "Arms Are For Hugging," "Will Work (When the Jobs Come Back From India)," "Jesus Is a Liberal," "God Wants Spiritual Fruits, Not Religious Nuts," "The Road to Hell Is Paved With Republicans," "Republicans Are People Too -- Mean, Selfish, Greedy People" and so on. But Willett thinks Austin subverts a stereotype: "The belief that liberals care more about the poor may scratch a partisan or ideological itch, but the facts are hostile witnesses."

    Sixteen months ago, Arthur C. Brooks, a professor at Syracuse University, published "Who Really Cares: The Surprising Truth About Compassionate Conservatism." The surprise is that liberals are markedly less charitable than conservatives.
    ..

    If many conservatives are liberals who have been mugged by reality, Brooks, a registered independent, is, as a reviewer of his book said, a social scientist who has been mugged by data. They include these findings:

    -- Although liberal families’ incomes average 6 percent higher than those of conservative families, conservative-headed households give, on average, 30 percent more to charity than the average liberal-headed household ($1,600 per year vs. $1,227).

    -- Conservatives also donate more time and give more blood.

    -- Residents of the states that voted for John Kerry in 2004 gave smaller percentages of their incomes to charity than did residents of states that voted for George Bush.

    -- Bush carried 24 of the 25 states where charitable giving was above average.

    -- In the 10 reddest states, in which Bush got more than 60 percent majorities, the average percentage of personal income donated to charity was 3.5. Residents of the bluest states, which gave Bush less than 40 percent, donated just 1.9 percent.

    -- People who reject the idea that "government has a responsibility to reduce income inequality" give an average of four times more than people who accept that proposition.

    Brooks demonstrates a correlation between charitable behavior and "the values that lie beneath" liberal and conservative labels. Two influences on charitable behavior are religion and attitudes about the proper role of government.

    The single biggest predictor of someone’s altruism, Willett says, is religion. It increasingly correlates with conservative political affiliations because, as Brooks’ book says, "the percentage of self-described Democrats who say they have ’no religion’ has more than quadrupled since the early 1970s." America is largely divided between religious givers and secular nongivers, and the former are disproportionately conservative. One demonstration that religion is a strong determinant of charitable behavior is that the least charitable cohort is a relatively small one -- secular conservatives.

    Reviewing Brooks’ book in the Texas Review of Law & Politics, Justice Willett notes that Austin -- it voted 56 percent for Kerry while he was getting just 38 percent statewide -- is ranked by The Chronicle of Philanthropy as 48th out of America’s 50 largest cities in per capita charitable giving. Brooks’ data about disparities between liberals’ and conservatives’ charitable giving fit these facts: Democrats represent a majority of the wealthiest congressional districts, and half of America’s richest households live in states where both senators are Democrats.

    While conservatives tend to regard giving as a personal rather than governmental responsibility, some liberals consider private charity a retrograde phenomenon -- a poor palliative for an inadequate welfare state, and a distraction from achieving adequacy by force, by increasing taxes. Ralph Nader, running for president in 2000, said: "A society that has more justice is a society that needs less charity." Brooks, however, warns: "If support for a policy that does not exist ... substitutes for private charity, the needy are left worse off than before. It is one of the bitterest ironies of liberal politics today that political opinions are apparently taking the place of help for others."

    In 2000, brows were furrowed in perplexity because Vice President Al Gore’s charitable contributions, as a percentage of his income, were below the national average: He gave 0.2 percent of his family income, one-seventh of the average for donating households. But Gore "gave at the office." By using public office to give other peoples’ money to government programs, he was being charitable, as liberals increasingly, and conveniently, understand that word.
    georgewill@washpost.com

    Copyright 2008, Washington Post Writers Group
    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 03-27-2008 at 19:18.
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    Incorruptible Forest Manager Member Tristuskhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charitable Contributions In Relation To Ideology

    Know issue, but worth spreading. Isn't it about Charity and the (often) religious nature of the conservatives?

    US citizens give much more than europeans, but we pay much more taxes for welfare, it's just a different way to give.
    "Les Cons ça ose tout, c'est même à ça qu'on les reconnait"

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charitable Contributions In Relation To Ideology

    Institutionalization of good intentions, pretty cynical huh. It doesn't sur[rise me at all that lefties give less they outsourced that.
    Last edited by Fragony; 03-27-2008 at 19:26.

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    Incorruptible Forest Manager Member Tristuskhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charitable Contributions In Relation To Ideology

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony
    Institutionalization of good intentions, pretty cynical huh. It doesn't sur[rise me at all that lefties give less they outsourced that.
    Pretty cynical, of course... but it's efficient at least.
    "Les Cons ça ose tout, c'est même à ça qu'on les reconnait"

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    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charitable Contributions In Relation To Ideology

    We all pay similar amounts in taxes - so it isn't like there is any way to say that liberals in the U.S. give more through taxes.

    In Europe it may be different because Europeans tend to be Godless heathens irrespective of their political ideology.
    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 03-27-2008 at 19:32.
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charitable Contributions In Relation To Ideology

    Quote Originally Posted by Tristuskhan
    Pretty cynical, of course... but it's efficient at least.
    Out of all things what it is the least of all is efficient.

    Tuff you ok?

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    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charitable Contributions In Relation To Ideology

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony
    Out of all things what it is the least of all is efficient.

    Tuff you ok?
    Hehe. What do you mean? I'm less hostile to religion out of the blue and I want to find a way to start giving to charity. Because I am a terrible miser.
    "That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charitable Contributions In Relation To Ideology

    My bad, didn't see the jest, ussually I do

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    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charitable Contributions In Relation To Ideology

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony
    My bad, didn't see the jest, ussually I do
    Haha - I'm not joking. I'm dead serious

    I make a decent wage and I give nothing to charity. I also like Catholicism and share most of the core beliefs. My family is super religious.

    One day, my mom and dad will be gone and my family will be full of misers and atheists. I don't want to see that happen because I strongly dislike atheists and misers.

    My family has historically been very closely tied to the Church (Nuns, Brothers, Priests, etc.) and It would be a shame to lose the legacy of kindness and sacrifice that made my family worthy of existence (whether it is the rather huge financial sacrifices, adoption, or the sacrifice of personal time and energy).

    No joke. Blood is thicker than water, but ideology trumps them both.
    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 03-27-2008 at 20:17.
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    Default Re: Charitable Contributions In Relation To Ideology

    We all pay similar amounts in taxes - so it isn't like there is any way to say that liberals in the U.S. give more through taxes.
    yes there is , since donations are tax deductable .

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    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charitable Contributions In Relation To Ideology

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman
    yes there is , since donations are tax deductable .
    hahaha - so you are saying that since Liberals aren't giving as much in the first place they are allowing the government to have more money, thus increasing their net "charity"?

    I should have known. Those lousy charity givers are just undermining socialism and getting rich while doing it through tax breaks, the rat bastards.

    I've gotta let you know - we get a standard deduction here. That means that even though I spent around 5,200 bucks last year on itemizable things, my standard deduction was 5,350. That means that my itemization came up short by $150 and that was without doing anything at all.

    You have to give ALOT of money
    Laziness isn't charitable.
    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 03-27-2008 at 20:36.
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    Member Member atheotes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charitable Contributions In Relation To Ideology

    When they mention 'charity' do they include the money given to churches/religious organisations (albeit for charity purposes) or only contributions made directly to charities. This might be an important consideration as i believe, more money might be used for actual charity when it is given directly than through a religious organisation.


    irrelevant to topic
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    if churches are included does scientology count

  13. #13

    Default Re: Charitable Contributions In Relation To Ideology

    so you are saying that since Liberals aren't giving as much in the first place they are allowing the government to have more money, thus increasing their net "charity"?
    Perhaps the caring conservatives are more meticulous in tracking every last cent they donated over the year when it comes time to file their tax returns .

    if churches are included does scientology count
    yes since 1993 .
    Last edited by Tribesman; 03-27-2008 at 20:32.

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    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charitable Contributions In Relation To Ideology

    Scientology donations aren't enough for the liberals to counter the balance of conservatives in the charity debate? Too Bad.

    The idea that people are giving to charity ONLY to get a deduction seems a bit silly (momentously silly) to me. Unless you are laundering the money and cycling it right back into your own pockets - but hey - why not just launder the money in the first place?

    How do deductions work in old Eire?
    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 03-27-2008 at 20:55.
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    Dyslexic agnostic insomniac Senior Member Goofball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charitable Contributions In Relation To Ideology

    As it seems we're in a red state/blue state contest of moral superiority here, I thought I'd post this little gem about red state two-facedness when it comes to morality. I have cleaned up the language considerably from the anonymous poster's original, to make it .Org acceptable.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Screw the South. Screw 'em. We should have let them go when they wanted to leave. Fighting for the right to keep slaves--yeah, those are states we want to keep. And now what do we get? We're the Arrogant Northeast Liberal Elite? How about this for arrogant: the South is the Real America? The Authentic America. Really?
    'Cause we founded this country, buttholes. Those Founding Fathers you keep going on and on about? All that crap about what you think they meant by the Second Amendment? Who do you think those wig-wearing, lacy-shirt-sporting revolutionaries were? They were fricking blue-staters, butthead. Boston? Philadelphia? New York? Hello? Think there might be a reason all the fricking monuments are up here in our backyard?
    No, No. Get the hell out. We're not letting you visit the Liberty Bell and Plymouth Rock anymore until you get over your real American selves and start respecting those other nine amendments. Who do you think those fricking stripes on the flag are for? Nine are for fricking blue states. Get it? We started this crap, so don't get all uppity about how real you are, you Johnny-come-lately "Oooooh, I've been a state for almost a hundred years" prickheads. Piss off.
    Arrogant? You wanna talk to us Northeasterners about arrogance? Maybe I wouldn't be so arrogant if I wasn't paying for your bridges, chump. All those federal taxes you love to hate? It all comes from us and goes to you, so shut up and enjoy your Tennessee Valley Authority electricity and your fancy highways that we paid for. And the next time Florida gets hit by a hurricane, you can come crying to us if you want to, but you're the ones who built on a swamp. "Let the Spanish keep it; it's a shithole," we said, but you had to have your fricking orange juice.
    The next moron who says, "It's your money, not the government's money" is gonna get their butt kicked. Nine of the 10 states that get the most federal dollars and pay the least... can you guess? That's right, moron, they're red states. And 8 of the 10 states that receive the least and pay the most? It's too easy. They're blue states. It's not your money, losers, it's our money. What was that Real American Value you were spouting a minute ago? Self reliance? Try this for self reliance: Buy your own lousy stop signs, butthead.
    Let's talk about those values for a minute. You and your Southern values can bite my arse because the blue states got the values over you Real Americans every day of the goddamn week. Which state do you think has the lowest divorce rate, you marriage-hyping losers? Can you guess? It's Massachusetts, the center of the gay marriage universe. Yes, that's right, the state you love to tie around the neck of anyone to the left of Strom Thurmond has the lowest divorce rate in the nation. Think that's just some aberration? How about this: Nine of the 10 lowest divorce rates are blue states, butthead, and most are in the Northeast, where our values suck so bad. And where are the highest divorce rates? Care to guess? Ten out of 10 are red, we're-so-fricking-moral states.
    But two guys making out is going to ruin marriage for you? Yeah? Seems like you're ruining it pretty well on your own, you morons. Oh, but that's okay because you go to church, right? I mean you do, right? 'Cause we get to hear about it every year at election time. Yes, we're fascinated by how you get up every Sunday morning and sing, and then you're towers of moral superiority. Yeah, that's a workable formula. Maybe us Northerners don't talk about religion as much as you because we're not so busy sinning, hmmm? Ever think of that, you self-righteous morons? No, you're too busy erecting giant stone tablets of the Ten Commandments in buildings paid for by the Northeast Liberal Elite.
    Well this gravy train is over. Take your liberal-bashing, federal-tax-leeching, Confederate-flag-waving, holier- than-thou, hypocritical crap and shove it where the sun don’t shine.
    And no, you can't have your convention in New York next time. Piss off.
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    Incorruptible Forest Manager Member Tristuskhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charitable Contributions In Relation To Ideology

    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff
    I should have known. Those lousy charity givers are just undermining socialism and getting rich while doing it through tax breaks, the rat bastards.
    You point it with a needle
    "Les Cons ça ose tout, c'est même à ça qu'on les reconnait"

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    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charitable Contributions In Relation To Ideology

    Quote Originally Posted by Goofball
    As it seems we're in a red state/blue state contest of moral superiority here, I thought I'd post this little gem about red state two-facedness when it comes to morality. I have cleaned up the language considerably from the anonymous poster's original, to make it .Org acceptable.
    Uncharitable AND Vitriolic? Serious combination. Well played.
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    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charitable Contributions In Relation To Ideology

    Whatever. Are we talking net or gross? There was a big poo poo at the UN because Americans, on average, give less to charity than citizens of other countries. Or maybe it was what the government gives. However, the total amount we give is huge. You think the world would be more thankful for the benevolent police protection we offer them .
    Last edited by Vladimir; 03-27-2008 at 20:58.


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    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charitable Contributions In Relation To Ideology

    Quote Originally Posted by Vladimir
    Whatever. Are we talking net or gross? There was a big poo poo at the UN because Americans, on average, give less to charity than citizens of other countries. Or maybe it was what the government gives. However, the total amount we give is huge. You think the world would be more thankful for the benevolent police protection we offer them .
    If I remember correctly, the Poo-Poo was because the U.S. government didn't give as much in relation to its GDP as other countries. What they failed to take into consideration was personal contributions AS WELL AS government contributions - in which case the U.S. gives more of a share of its overall GDP than any other country (if taken as the sum of its parts). Either way, more charitable donations come from the United states than any other country on earth, whether you look at the government alone or the individuals alone.


    People like to see the United states as the big monster - let them lie to themselves if it makes them sleep better at night.
    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 03-27-2008 at 21:07.
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    boy of DESTINY Senior Member Big_John's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charitable Contributions In Relation To Ideology

    here's the author in a Q&A:

    http://philanthropy.com/live/2006/11/brooks/

    some interesting points
    Quote Originally Posted by Brooks
    I agree it’s important to look at giving aside from sacramental contributions to get a fair picture of things. So one of the things I do in the book is to compare secular and religious folks only in terms of explicitly nonreligious giving and volunteering. There’s still a huge difference:

    Religiously-observant people are generally about 10 percentage points more likely than people with “no religion” (or who never practice) to give to nonreligious causes, and about 25 points less likely to volunteer.

    Regarding taxes, I think it’s true that some see them as a voluntary part of the social contract to help others. The problem with trying to make a measure that combines donations with taxes is that so many people don’t pay their taxes with this intent, and voluntary charity is so different in terms of deciding where and how money is spent. Still, I discuss the fact that this point has conceptual validity in some places, especially Europe where social spending really is high.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brooks
    Regarding volunteerism, the gap is statistically insignificant between liberals and conservatives, although adding in religion makes a gap open up (religious conservatives volunteer a lot more than secular liberals). It’s not clear whether conservatives or liberals enjoy a disproportionate tax benefit from giving, although you might plausibly argue that liberals generally get a bigger benefit because they reside in greatest numbers in high-tax (“blue”) states, and thus can deduct more.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brooks
    But the point in the book was to show that charity differences are actually due to attitudes and behaviors (such as religiosity and attitudes about the government) that go deeper than political affiliations. In the book, I actually point out the fact that when we correct for the “deep attitudes,” politics don't predict giving very well. In other words, politics are correlated with giving at the group level and contradict the stereotypes about charity -- and that’s important to know. But if we want to know exactly why this is, we have to go into much deeper than politics. Perhaps not surprisingly, that second story isn’t the “top-line” one that’s showing up in the press a lot.
    (these types of studies are nothing new, btw)
    now i'm here, and history is vindicated.

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    Member Member atheotes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charitable Contributions In Relation To Ideology

    Any idea how they came up with the numbers for the article?

    edit: the above post explains a lot...
    Last edited by atheotes; 03-27-2008 at 21:31.

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charitable Contributions In Relation To Ideology

    Pakistan is an ally we are your friends americans are paranoid.

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    Default Re: Charitable Contributions In Relation To Ideology

    Scientology donations aren't enough for the liberals to counter the balance of conservatives in the charity debate? Too Bad.
    Scientologists are liberals ??????

    But anyway Tuff since you want to put a religeous angle on this we can discount some big money charities whose aims are for example....errrrrr...to put on lots of big money golf tournaments at top golf courses , and instead focus on religeous ones . So Tuff if you take a charity monitors list of religeous charities , what proportion of them recieve the "pile of crap waste of money" or "downright scam artist" ratings ?
    You see for all your nonsense about how much money, the issue should really be where does it go and what does it do .

    Oh and another thing
    I need to give to charity and become religious so that I can have some self respect
    Did you read the passage in the bible about the bloke who claimed to be religeous and how he gave so much money to charity , I think there was a little woman in it who didn't give much and didn't make a song and dance about it...or perhaps in your quest to be religeous and have respect you missed that part

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    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charitable Contributions In Relation To Ideology

    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff
    In Europe it may be different because Europeans tend to be Godless heathens irrespective of their political ideology.



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:EU_belief_in_god.png

    I believe that would leave the Czechs to be "Godless heathens".
    Last edited by Evil_Maniac From Mars; 03-27-2008 at 22:32.

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    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Cool Re: Charitable Contributions In Relation To Ideology

    Depends how you slice and dice the stats.

    If the liberals are earning 6% more and are desiring a redistribution of wealth by takes then lets do some maths.

    From the CIA factbook US per capita GDP is $46,000. Assume that is the average income.

    6% more would be $2760. So what is the typical overall tax rate in the US? (rates, tariffs, sales and income tax)... ie what portion of the income goes to the Man. Lets assume a third... mainly because it gives a nice number of $920.

    So wouldn't liberals be redistributing an average of $920 with the $1200 in charities... wouldn't that mean they are giving about $400 more per annum to others via government redistribution and charity?
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  26. #26
    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charitable Contributions In Relation To Ideology

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman

    Did you read the passage in the bible about the bloke who claimed to be religeous and how he gave so much money to charity , I think there was a little woman in it who didn't give much and didn't make a song and dance about it...or perhaps in your quest to be religeous and have respect you missed that part
    I'm not talking about public respect - I am saying, publically that I am a despicable miser. What do you want? When I start giving to charity and becoming religious you won't hear a peep out of me on the issue.

    Until then, my charitable and religious contributions amount to zero.

    Quote Originally Posted by Papewaio
    Depends how you slice and dice the stats.
    c'mon, Pape. So does everything. We are talking about THIS article, summarizing THIS Liberal writer's findings.

    If you want to say "everything is reliant on facts cut up by bias" that is fine, just realize how weak the arguement is and how it can be used whenever "facts" don't go your way - or mine.
    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 03-27-2008 at 23:57.
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    Default Re: Charitable Contributions In Relation To Ideology

    Until then, my charitable and religious contributions amount to zero.
    Tuff does that mean you are European then ? Or does it mean you are a liberal (non-scientology flavour) ?
    Last edited by Tribesman; 03-27-2008 at 23:59.

  28. #28
    Dyslexic agnostic insomniac Senior Member Goofball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charitable Contributions In Relation To Ideology

    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff
    Uncharitable AND Vitriolic? Serious combination. Well played.
    Hey, you can call me whatever you want, except late for dinner, or off topic...

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  29. #29
    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charitable Contributions In Relation To Ideology

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:EU_belief_in_god.png

    I believe that would leave the Czechs to be "Godless heathens".
    I should have said "in relation to the rest of the world"

    Only 21% believe Religion to be important in Europe. If you don't believe that Religion is important, chances are you don't really believe in it in the first place. If there is a God and you believe that there is right and wrong, what on earth would make it not important? What the heck is important?

    Couple this with the absolutely staggering drop in religious observation and belief over the past 10 or 20 years. The trend as well as the trendsetters are "Godless Heathens".

    Religion in the EU
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  30. #30
    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Charitable Contributions In Relation To Ideology

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman
    Tuff does that mean you are European then ? Or does it mean you are a liberal (non-scientology flavour) ?
    First - Non sequitur.Tautological fallacy.

    Second - Did you read the article? Did you read my posts? The MOST MISERLY OF ALL in the study were secular conservatives. This still failed to screw up the balance in favor of Conservatives.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goofball
    Hey, you can call me whatever you want, except late for dinner, or off topic...

    hehe. I wasn't talking about you but the article. You believe in a God and aren't what I would consider "liberal" - more of a unique thinker, what with your private gun ownership and what not.

    ...or just Canadian, so you will argue with an American over the color of the sky. Don't lump yourself in with those liberals.
    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 03-28-2008 at 00:10.
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    (Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
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