British Invasions

[Maeran]

I suspect that this thread will not receive a measured response, and I mean no disrespect to the academic expertise of those who know a damn sight more than I do. I am also aware that a lot of the foundation for the Britons was laid by Ranika, who is not available to discuss the matter.

But I must register the following dissension.

Most (of not all) of the British ethnicities refer to invasions between 800 and 200 BC. This follows the 1920s 'beaker' invasion hypothesis.

However, I have not read anything recent (originally published within the last 15 or so years, except for clearly partisan works from "celtic" countries) that agrees with the idea of large scale invasions of Britain by the "Celtic" tribes seen there when the Romans invade. Indeed, the genetic evidence suggests continuity with the ancient, neolithic (and earlier) population.

I'm not averse to cultural influence from the continent, but is there sufficient evidence for the 'strong' invasion context given by the in game ethnicities for my native people (technically Brigantes, but you get the idea)?

[PershsNhpios]

I, for one, shall answer you - brave contributor!

Salute!

[underthesun]

I'm sorry, it just applies here, I had to do it...

[Watchman]

IIRC there wasn't anything particularly suggesting any sort of mass movement above and beyond the usual transfer of "elite"- level personnel and cultural osmosis that the spread of "becoming Celtic" in almost all cases consisted of anyway. AFAIK the Celts were always a culture-group, not some genetically distinct ethnic group.

...and might I add, the wording could probably been a bit less barbed ?

[PershsNhpios]

Sorry, Armenian thread aside - what was that picture underthesun?

It didn't load for me there's just a red cross, (Multiplication cross), inside a little white box.

Or is that it?

Could you describe it to me?

[underthesun]

It's a picture of a rather frightening looking cat, with the text "Conservative cat does not like your new ideas"

HEre, this one may work:

[PershsNhpios]

That is the best internet feline photo I have ever seen!

Look at that white residue on his lips.. He's on the take.

This certainly isn't a conservative thread!

[Watchman]

...but is there sufficient evidence for the 'strong' invasion context given by the in game ethnicities for my native people (technically Brigantes, but you get the idea)?

...I don't know about you, but this kind of thing tends to raise some warning flags in my head.

[PershsNhpios]

Maybe he sides with that poorly tempered cat?

[Tiberius Nero]

This certainly isn't a conservative thread!

Indeed, it turns out to be a spam thread.

[Maeran]

I tried to keep my tone respectful and yet still manage to make my point. If this came across as barbed, then please be assured that was not the intention.

No need to get worried about some nationalist rant from me, Watchman. Like most people, I have a special interest in the area that I myself come from. That's what I meant.

Since all the more recent books on the subject that I've read (all popular books, I'm not an expert on the subject and do not pretend to be) distance themselves from the idea of successive invasions (and more recent genetic studies suggest that most of the population of Britain hasn't moved very far at all since prehistory), the ethnicity traits for the Casse as I understand them contradict what at least looks like the current majority view- every trait I've read so far gives an approximate century that the tribe concerned migrated from Gaul, and they are all 800BC and younger, so far as I've seen.

Of course I could be mistaken. Perhaps the idea of a series of immigrations from Gaul has made a comeback. Perhaps the invasion idea was retained because the game is Total War, and not Total Farming, so descriptions inclined toward the dramatic.

Because I don't know, I asked. I have seen similar posts treated with disdain but I thought it was something worth asking.

[overweightninja]

Indeed, it turns out to be a spam thread.

The guy has politely proposed something, has presented his own views and appears to be quite willing to hear other opinions (in fact has actively requested other's evidence), isn't that how a thread like this should be done? It's threads like this that make history interesting for the "non-history buffs" imho. Any spam in this thread is not Maeran's doing as far as I can tell.
I'm afraid I can't offer any input directly, just thought I'd say I am also interested in the answers to this question, so lets find out nicely, and leave the cat out of it!
Cheers

[Watchman]

Since all the more recent books on the subject that I've read (all popular books, I'm not an expert on the subject and do not pretend to be) distance themselves from the idea of successive invasions (and more recent genetic studies suggest that most of the population of Britain hasn't moved very far at all since prehistory), the ethnicity traits for the Casse as I understand them contradict what at least looks like the current majority view- every trait I've read so far gives an approximate century that the tribe concerned migrated from Gaul, and they are all 800BC and younger, so far as I've seen.

Of course I could be mistaken. Perhaps the idea of a series of immigrations from Gaul has made a comeback. Perhaps the invasion idea was retained because the game is Total War, and not Total Farming, so descriptions inclined toward the dramatic.

Do recall, the parts concerned - ie. the FMs etc. - are of the ruling/warrior class which so far as I've read did move around. And insofar as they're concerned "their tribe migrating here" means just that - since when did anyone really concern themselves with the common peasantry anyway ? It's not like the equivalent social strata in say Mesopotamia has really changed that much since the Sumerians either far as I know, but their overlords most certainly did.

As for the dates, well duh - the whole La Tene phase of Celtic culture and the accompanying diffusion of wandering warriors-of-fortune and cultural influences is younger than 800BC, AFAIK. Would be tricky indeed for the Celtic influences in the British Isles to be older than that.

[russia almighty]

What is up with in general with "migrations" really being more like military conquests than anything?

[Watchman]

Well, many were really more a change of the elite layer than anything else - ambitious adventurers carving themselves a nice little realm somewhere, the local elites absorbing an influx of foreign influences, that sort of thing. Actual mass population migrations lock stock and barrel, such as the Helveti one Caesar beat back, were AFAIK rather uncommon.

[cmacq]

Want my two cents, or no?

[Maeran]

Well, yes.

I'm aware that Watchman has already given a perfectly reasonable answer. But any and all opinions are welcome- although not necessarily taken seriously, I have already discounted the Bartixian memory wipe attack on the British tribes around 350BC, which led them to invent new histories of themselves.

I was under the impression though, that a tribe was sort of like an extended clan, with lots of marriage alliances and so on. In which case wouldn't a foreign adventurer 'join' the tribe, rather than the tribe 'join' him?

[Watchman]

That goes into the murky woods of politics. And imported influences, AKA "neat shit everyone else wants to sport too".

[cmacq]

I'm a bit tied right now, nursing a dodgy schedule. I'll get back to you on this soon, I think?

[blitzkrieg80]

perhaps this might help on the reasoning of the dating you mention- i don't know if this is where Ranika was coming from, i can only guess:

"General archaeological and linguistic opinion assigns the intrusions which carried the Celtic languages into Britain and Ireland to sometime during the first millennium BC, although some scholars still hold to an earlier date. Certainly the similarity between the earliest evidence of Brittonic and Ogham Irish are too close to permit them a long separation in time, and they share the same Late Bronze Age and Iron Age vocabularies of their continental relations" (106). J.P. Mallory. In Search of the Indo-Europeans.

I definitely agree that the Beaker invasion is still not widely accepted whatsoever (heck, most people have never heard of it)- ironically I have always been impressed that the Iberian/Britain connection (Megalithic?) was maintained in this mod- as you describe, scholars seem to avoid that area completely nowadays... pre-WW2 there seemed to be much more interest in that sort of thing.

it is commonly held that Picts (indigenous) are definitely of a different influence than standard Brythonic Celts. Wikipedia says Picts probably spoke Brythonic (for which it states no evidence whatsoever)- wow, that's ignorant. the Picts might have been assimilated into Brythonic culture/speakers, but then they're not Pictish anymore are they?

Genetic markers prove nothing. We haven't mapped and defined all our genomes, so it's basically hype (much like AI- how can we create intelligence like our own when we don't even understand a great deal of how our brains work (neither psychologically or physiologically)?? not gonna happen).

race theory is just that- theory. i enjoy the theories of pre-peoples across Europe though since widely accepted academia is typically boring and unwilling to risk being called unscholarly so they discuss trivial things like when the p became a f or some such uninteresting thing.

[cmacq]

Witd Wholly Kwadrig's Dai so near at hand, no talk of P's and Q's??? Prince of the Qad, was no Paladin-us, now there's a bonified Cycle for you.

This was a good summery. A good researcher always wants to see the raw demographic data. The rubbish in, rubbish out axiom is of course bull. The only rubbish is the inability of a researcher to distinguish meaningfully patterns. A pity the Brits don't do more dentition studies. They've done them here, yet the twits often group very large pops and will often not provide the raw data in the pubs.