Phalanx Vs. Phalanx

[Maximus Aurelius]

It is retarded!!
I mean i am fighting with the Ptolemies, and we both have phalanx dominated armies (I am playing as the Seleucids). The problem is when the phalanxes meet in battle ( They are the same type, same stamina, equal terrain, same experience). It doesn't matter if I am attacking or defending. So, the twin phalanxes meet. At first they both kill a few men, but thats when it starts. The enemy start killing my men at an enormously fast rate ( and my men don't kill almost anything). I always have to flank with some units or they will rout. If i didn't have cavalry ( Hetairoi )I think that victory would be almost impossible.

Whats with this? If anybody has some tips for battles I would appreciate it.

[woad&fangs]

what difficulty are you playing on? If you're playing with battles on hard or very hard then in a one vs. one fight between two identical units your unit will always lose. The units are balanced for medium battle settings.

[Elmetiacos]

You're sure your phalanxes are the same type and that it's not elite phalanx vs. native phalanx or something? If they are the same, it could be you have a worse general or the enemy's armour has been improved by blacksmiths or that they are more experienced soldiers.

[machinor]

First of all, you have to take into account, that phalanxes are defensive units. So if you fight a phalanx with and equal phalanx, march them close to the other one and then order them to halt (by pressing backspace). The phalanxes will then lock fronts. This is all. Do not order them to attack because their strength is defense not offense. Only do that if your facing inferior phalanxes (like levy or kleruchoi phalanxes with pezhetairoi) or if you have an advantage in numbers or terrain. If you have phalanxes, always bring some flanking units like peltasts or better thureophoroi with you.

[Maximus Aurelius]

Im playing on medium. And yep their pantadapoi vs. machimoi. I never press attack because they would brake their formation, it happens when i'm holding still and the enemy comes to me. I thought it was that they were on higher ground, the terrain when it happens is flat. Perhaps its the general. Their generals always have some ten stars, and mine rarely has over one.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

There seems to be a bug with PvP, where if you are attacked by a parrallel phalanx, your guys will simply hold their ground, not fight back, and die. If you tell them to attack, they will stopt this. Though, as you said, this will make them break formation. You can also try turning of defensive formation, but this too will result in a broken formation. This is not a EB bug but a RTW bug...

[O'ETAIPOS]

Im playing on medium. And yep their pantadapoi vs. machimoi. I never press attack because they would brake their formation, it happens when i'm holding still and the enemy comes to me. I thought it was that they were on higher ground, the terrain when it happens is flat. Perhaps its the general. Their generals always have some ten stars, and mine rarely has over one.

High star generals increase defence of his units. If they have 8-10 star monster it's like they had 5-6 points of armour more.

One of CA guys said this in this forum some time ago.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Ram them and then hit backspace.

[antisocialmunky]

Using a equal or better phalanx, form them into a square, take them off of guard, and order attack and watch them split the other phalanx in half.

[pezhetairoi]

antisocialmunky is right. Taking the phalanx off guard mode is perhaps the key to getting them to close without simply taking damage. Guard mode boosts defence but drops attack (based on my inspection of a hoplitai vs thureophoroi battle, one on guard and one off), and if the opposing army has equal attack to you, sooner or later he is going to punch through while your attack-disadvantaged people will be badly hurt and unable to fight back. Attack beats defence anytime, as the drapanai could tell you. That 15-18 pike attack is not really 15-18 when fighting in phalanx on guard, or else you'd make mincemeat of any unit you care to allow to charge your front.

[Decimus Attius Arbiter]

I'll have to try phalanxes again. I hate how many casualties happen no matter how fast I try to flank. I thought I needed to build up a lot of experience chevrons before people stopped dieing.

[Maximus Aurelius]

Thanks for the replies guys. I'm gonna try turning off the guard mode, and see how it works.

[antisocialmunky]

The only side effect is that the phalanxes practically explode and you have guys running backwards all the way across the map.

[Maximus Aurelius]

The only side effect is that the phalanxes practically explode and you have guys running backwards all the way across the map.

Nothing new, I'd say.

[pezhetairoi]

XD was about to say that. It's only a question of WHY they're running backwards all the way across the map.

[antisocialmunky]

Or backflipping, don't forget those guys.

[General Appo]

Me, I think it´s a extremely bad case of innate cowardness and stupidity. Why else would you back away 300 meters from your unit without noticing that a bunch of Equites Extraordinarii are charging at your back? Stupid Greeks, they´re better of enslaved by the Imperuim Romanum.

[pezhetairoi]

Aye! Couldn't agree more.

/spam

...+1?

[russia almighty]

HAIL CAESAR!

[eddy_purpus]

antisocialmonkey i agree with that .
but always keep a unit of heavy infantry by their side if youre gonna fight Phalanx vs Phalanx .
if youre losing . then thats where ur infantry comes handy :)

[Dubius Cato]

High star generals increase defence of his units. If they have 8-10 star monster it's like they had 5-6 points of armour more.

One of CA guys said this in this forum some time ago.

Since 2004, I've heard that too, in many versions actually. Either command stars give a bonus to attack, or defence, or both, or to morale in general, or to morale only within a certain range around the general. But which is true?

If it is defence, and given that in EB you often fight enemy generals, especially Rebel generals with 7-10 stars, how can it be that your own troops have the slightest chance? Is defence not that important?

[Sand]

I believe the command star bonus is to attack, which would explain why when fight the AI generals their equivalent units can rip you a new one in a straight up fight.

Ive not encountered too many phalanx vs phalanx issues to be honest - a Phalanx will only suffer badly if its going up against a superior phalanx [ Levies vs Pehzatoi or Elites] and even then the loss rate is low enough that by the time your heavy cavalry has driven off the enemy cavalary and is carrying out 400 man charges into the rear of the enemy line, your phalanx will have suffered only 30-40% casualties absolute max.

[mcantu]

I believe the command star bonus is to attack, which would explain why when fight the AI generals their equivalent units can rip you a new one in a straight up fight.

Ive not encountered too many phalanx vs phalanx issues to be honest - a Phalanx will only suffer badly if its going up against a superior phalanx [ Levies vs Pehzatoi or Elites] and even then the loss rate is low enough that by the time your heavy cavalry has driven off the enemy cavalary and is carrying out 400 man charges into the rear of the enemy line, your phalanx will have suffered only 30-40% casualties absolute max.

Sorry but its not...

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...4&postcount=19

Originally Posted by JeromeGrasdyke
Just to clear this up ( as requested ;-) ), from the old code on my machine at CA the General's command modifier on attacks is still there in the last version, but it only applies to melee attacks and it is -inverted- so the quality of the defender's general is applied as bonus directionless defense for the defending soldier. It is also rescaled to range from -6 to +6, changing quickly at low bonus levels and then slowing down towards the top of the range. The idea was to limit the number of stacking bonusses which speed up the battles, i vaguely remember.

Also, the bonus is not limited by physical distance, and is supposed to represent a good general's ability to get superior performance from his troops through training in small scale maneuvers. The only way for this bonus to result in faster combat death rates rather than slower ones is if the defender's general has bad command traits...

If you want to test it, I would suggest a battle between some big peasant units, fighting the units 1v1 and timing the length of time to rout; then repeat giving each army a 10 star general. You should see a slower time-to-rout with the generals. In the end though 6 pts is not enough to make up huge troop quality differences, so don't expect to see miraculous differences.