When the phalanx disappeared ?

[Dhampir]

During the 1812 war, the 13th US Infantry was formed without enough muskets to go around so the colonel adapted them to fight in three ranks, not two, and gave the rear rank long pikes. When the front rank has their bayonets at guard, the second most at thrust-out and the rear has their pikes aimed forward, the formation vaguely resembles a phalanx...

But not tactically so.

[Gododdin O'Ceallagh]

Watchman said

"The Scottish "schiltrom", however, is a bit different thing. It was really just a static circular "hedgehog" of long spears, and while obviously providing good all-around cavalry protection was very much a sitting duck to missile troops. Something of a failed experiment in a proto-pike square you could say."


In most cases this was true, the enemy usually stood off the schiltron and peppered it with missiles but at Bannockburn Robert the Bruce drilled the schiltrons so that they could advance in formation, like a "phalanx".

I don't think the Scots used schiltrons much after the 14th Century and the Scots fighting in the 100 Years War in France were probably indistinguishable in arms from their French allies who would have equipped them.

GO'C

[pezhetairoi]

Uhuh at Watchman (did you get your name from the comic, by the way?). I did say in my post that neither schiltron nor Swiss pike squares (thanks Saber for jogging my memory) were true resurrections of Alex's pike phalanx, and anyway, I did define my idea of what a phalanx was. Long pointy things, tightly packed infantry, unidirectional strength. So why in the world is everyone taking what I said to mean 'The Swiss were Alexander's pezhetairoi reborn?'

de Bruce's schiltrons were only used at Bannockburn, so I don't know if we can take that to buck the norm. And they were not unidirectional. You try to arrange spears to cover all angles, you are bound to have weak spots somewhere. If circular, then between every spear is a weak spot because each spear has to cover a wider 'arc of poking', if you will, than a single unbroken front. If square, then every apex is a MAJOR weak spot. And it wasn't like the Spanish tercio with the corners covered by musketeers, or a Napoleonic divisional square (another incarnation of the tightly-packed long-pointy-stick infantry?) where the corners were covered by artillery.

[Ibrahim]

actually, at falkirk in 1297 the schiltron was also used (lack of manuevrability from not being drilled cost them defeat)

[pezhetairoi]

Which is as good as saying mobile schiltrons were only used as intended at Bannockburn... Points given for trying, though. And if I recall, Falkirk was before Bannockburn (William Wallace before Robert de Bruce?), so I think de Bruce at Bannockburn was really just perfecting Wallace's attempt at tactical innovation?

Question, though, what sort of spears did they use in the schiltron? Pikes, or hoplite-length...? And how was the schiltron for missile protection? If the pezhetairoi phalanx gave them some protection because of the rear pikes slanting over the heads of the front five ranks, then what of the schiltron? Did they have some such plan?

And actually, now that I mention it. Was the schiltron circular or square? I'm not actually quite sure...

[Sarcasm]

Which is as good as saying mobile schiltrons were only used as intended at Bannockburn... Points given for trying, though. And if I recall, Falkirk was before Bannockburn (William Wallace before Robert de Bruce?), so I think de Bruce at Bannockburn was really just perfecting Wallace's attempt at tactical innovation?

Question, though, what sort of spears did they use in the schiltron? Pikes, or hoplite-length...? And how was the schiltron for missile protection? If the pezhetairoi phalanx gave them some protection because of the rear pikes slanting over the heads of the front five ranks, then what of the schiltron? Did they have some such plan?

And actually, now that I mention it. Was the schiltron circular or square? I'm not actually quite sure...

Actually it worked offensively at Stirling Bridge as well as other battles. Though the schiltron probably degenerated into a regular pike push.

Pikes on the short end (less than 3 meters) and they obviously sucked at receiving missile fire, being a stationary formation where half your guys are facing backwards does that. They'd have 4 divisions usually, with 1500 men or more in each, formed generally in squares and rarely in a circular formation (yay for M2TW). You'd have the pikemen/spearmen on the outside, and guys with big-ass polearms, like lochaber axes or bills standing behind to take advantage of a broken charge or take care of any breach in the spearwall.

[SaberHRE]

3 meters or 4 meters, The range of medieval pikes(and by this I mean those of Flanders and Scotland) ranged from 6 to 8 "feet". And yes the Schiltron was not a circular formation, Pez's explanation is exactly why the schiltron couldn't have been a circle)

Concerning its use. At Bannockburn it was used defensively, as the English were foolishly attacking the well positioned Scots, who basically fought off the English who were attacking from two sides. The credit for the success at Bannockburn has to be also given to the non-pike men who were part of the Schiltron. Unlike the Phalanx the Schiltron consisted also of men with all sorts of polearms(as Sarcasm pointed out) and also dismounted men-at-arms(most of the knights and men-at-arms of Scotland dismounted to fought in the Schiltron).

So again the differences between Phalanx and Schiltron are significant.

[Ibrahim]

Which is as good as saying mobile schiltrons were only used as intended at Bannockburn... Points given for trying, though. And if I recall, Falkirk was before Bannockburn (William Wallace before Robert de Bruce?), so I think de Bruce at Bannockburn was really just perfecting Wallace's attempt at tactical innovation?

Question, though, what sort of spears did they use in the schiltron? Pikes, or hoplite-length...? And how was the schiltron for missile protection? If the pezhetairoi phalanx gave them some protection because of the rear pikes slanting over the heads of the front five ranks, then what of the schiltron? Did they have some such plan?

And actually, now that I mention it. Was the schiltron circular or square? I'm not actually quite sure...

actually, you said just now is exactly what I was inferring; I'm not saying that robert the bruce was the first who got it right (I know wallace did); the only reason his sciltron was screwed over was from some welshmen who had curved armor piercing 6ft monsters (whose name will not be mentioned for obvious reasons); in fact, they almost screwed de bruce over at the bannockburn...hehe..the point behind what I said was this: 1-everyone seems to mention De bruce only, forgetting that wallace had done the same; guess defeat warrants forgetting. 2-to point out the danger of standing still in a schiltron.

[Parallel Pain]

Wallace had not done the same. The command at Stirling was Andrew de Moray, while Wallace had not taken the time to train his men in mobility like de Bruce did.

And the schiltron wasn't used at Stirling. Stirling was a simply rushing against a cut off enemy at a bottleneck.

Also the only threat to the Scots at Bannockburn were the longbowmen again, but due to impatient kights, King Edward's lack of control, and his own stupidity these were not a factor.