of the war in Iraq was yesterday.
of the war in Iraq was yesterday.
There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford
My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.
I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.
That would make today the day after
I have been trying to think about this as simply as possible.
If there had been undisclosed chemical or nuclear arms or development of arms (as nearly every international intelligence agency had believed at the time) would the conflict have been worth it?
Would much if anything of what has happened on the ground in Iraq been different?
My answer is Yes to the first, No to the second. What do you think?
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Dear God! When will the bloodshed END? Bring our troops home!
Sorry, a little preemption there.
Last edited by Vladimir; 03-17-2008 at 19:36.
Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
Ik hou van ferme grieten en dikke pintenOriginally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
Down with dried flowers!
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
I think the intel was right, chemical we know of, and nuclair arms are small they can be everywhere. We have seen the silo's, we know there was a nuclair program.Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff
More preemption for the Bush lied, people died crowd. Conspiracy theories don't survive truth.
Read it, I did. Great fun I tell you.
Last edited by Vladimir; 03-17-2008 at 21:16.
Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
Ik hou van ferme grieten en dikke pintenOriginally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
Down with dried flowers!
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Based on the intel we made the right decision. Unfortunate realities plagued that honorable and correct decision. The situation on the ground, had there been said weapons, would have been the same type of quagmire after initial combat ended and we would still be left with a power vacuum to the present day after insurrection began.
I will agree that the decision against fortification with more ground troops after the blitzkrieg was seriously shortsighted. I was on the fence at the time. The blitz, however, was one of the greatest examples of the use of military force in human history.
But the idea that the war was a "bad idea" isn't historically fair.
Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 03-17-2008 at 21:44.
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
You believe the honorable part? Based on intel yes but there is no room for honor in any of this. Man is wolf to man.Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff
I'm an American. Of course I believe there is honor in forced democratic transition from tyrrany.Originally Posted by Fragony
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
I'd say No and No. The UN weapon inspectors should have been given time to go through everything and if they found something then everyone should have gone through Diplomatic channels. If that didn't work, then I suppose invasion was the best realistic option.Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff
Rest in Peace TosaInu, the Org will be your legacy
Originally Posted by Leon Blum - For All Mankind
There is no way Saddam would have the guts to launch an attack on the world police; he'd be signing his own death.
Runes for good luck:
[1 - exp(i*2π)]^-1
probably no to the first, certainly no to the second. the weapons were pretext in the first place, so even if they had been found, the laser-guided democracy agenda would have gone about the same way.Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff
as to the first question, would war have been the proper way to deal with the iraq problem? difficult to say in retrospect, but i have a feeling diplomacy would have worked better. or a smarter combination of diplomacy and armed forces. we had, at some point, the option of sending hussein into exile, right? wasn't he trying to broker some kind of deal at the last moment? a more peaceful transition to a provisional government under that rubric couldn't have been any worse than this war.
but assuming that was not an option, is there much benefit to the current 'democracy' in iraq over the previous regime? i'm sure you can find iraqis on both sides of that fence.
more importantly, though. does a saddam with certain weapons present a threat that justifies the risk of war? call me pollyanna, but i don't really think so.
now i'm here, and history is vindicated.
There has not been a period of time since the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait that the US lead forces have not been at war with Iraq.
The first Gulf-war resulted in a truce… the war did not end.
This truce would be upheld if Iraq complied with a certain resolution which involved scraping together some documents within a time limit.
The Iraqi did not comply.
For 12 years Sadaam and his ilk defied the resolutions. The truce should have ended 14 days after it was set. That was the initial terms. Yet we looked through our fingers for 12 years.
The war was justified by all rules of war. No need to pull the WMD issue in.
Status Emeritus
However, there's another thing that should trump all rules of war. It was clear before the war that going in for regime change would be utterly stupid, with predictably awful consequences. Whether or not the rules of war and diplomacy justify an action, surely the rules of common sense should prevail? Even with my bare knowledge of the regional politics there, I still predicted in 2002 that the war would go smoothly, but the subsequent breakup of Iraq would not be good. Others with rather more knowledge went into this in more detail, most of which has since come to be. The metaphor that summed up the situation was "tiger by the tail" - holding on makes the situation worse, but letting go results in an immediate savaging. The only thing to do in that case was to avoid grabbing the tail in the first place, but what do we know of these things?Originally Posted by Sigurd Fafnesbane
No because the truce was between UN mandated forces and Iraq , the coilition didn't invade in 2003 as a UN mandated force .The war was justified by all rules of war. No need to pull the WMD issue in.
Forced democratic transition... That's, err... My words might be a little harsh, but give to someone not educated with "fooding" free access to all the food he wants at once, he'll get diabetis, fat, and die of a heart attack at the age of 35... I think that by giving "freedom" to people who were still thinking about "my community first, the other can all die", the "forced demaocratic transition" is not so good. too fast, and too many useless deads. Just read what you can find about what happens to christians in Irak now... they were better treated before. I'm not saying that it was not a tyrany, but Saudi Arabia has the same kind of tyrany. so I still think that the "before" was the "lesser bad", and that now many guerilla tactics have been developped, and now faced by the soldiers dying every day in AfghanistanOriginally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff
Absolutely.Originally Posted by Tribesman
Last edited by Caerfanan; 03-18-2008 at 11:34.
He tried to assassinate a former president. That has been confirmed.Originally Posted by Viking
Oil for food. We can trust the UN, right?Originally Posted by Tribesman
Last edited by Vladimir; 03-18-2008 at 13:35.
Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
Ik hou van ferme grieten en dikke pintenOriginally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
Down with dried flowers!
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Each signatore nation has the right to enforce the conditions of a truce. Be it under an United Nations Mandate or not. We have gone down this debate before, and the conclusion will be the same. The United Nations does not remove the soverignity of a nation to act on its own. Nations had to committed forces to the conflict, Nations operated under the flags of their nations and with a UN Flag. Under the Hague Conventions nations have the right to enforce truces and the resume warfare if the conditions are violated. All nations under the collation signed the truce accords at Safwon, it was not signed just as an United Nations document.Originally Posted by Tribesman
Now that opens up the counter for its a war of aggression, which would force the agruement about pre-emptive wars, and does a violation of a truce necessate a return to hostilities.
Last edited by Redleg; 03-18-2008 at 13:59.
O well, seems like 'some' people decide to ruin a perfectly valid threat. Nice going guys... doc bean
I wonder if they can match 15.25 years of Vietnam?
#Hillary4prism
BD:TW
Some piously affirm: "The truth is such and such. I know! I see!"
And hold that everything depends upon having the “right” religion.
But when one really knows, one has no need of religion. - Mahavyuha Sutra
Freedom necessarily involves risk. - Alan Watts
No - it won't survive the election process by more then 2 years. 2010 should see a complete withdraw from IraqOriginally Posted by Rythmic
O well, seems like 'some' people decide to ruin a perfectly valid threat. Nice going guys... doc bean
Yes and your claim that fell apart was that America had not and never had signed as being under the authority of the UN .Be it under an United Nations Mandate or not. We have gone down this debate before, and the conclusion will be the same.
Since America was in violation of the conditions of the truce it cannot claim that as justification .Each signatore nation has the right to enforce the conditions of a truce.
Originally Posted by Vladimir
A former president as in someone who lost the election two months prior, and who currently were on Kuwaiti soil.
Runes for good luck:
[1 - exp(i*2π)]^-1
War? What war? Congress hasn't declared war since Pearl Harbor.
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Si je n'étais pas jouer à des jeux que je serais mort de petits animaux à un taux plus élevé que je suis maintenant - Louis VI The Fat
"Why do you hate the extremely limited Spartan version of freedom?" - Lemur
You can claim it fell apart because you wish to win the arguement, however your comment fails to address the key point - The United Nations does not remove the soverignity of any nation. The Hague Conventions deal with nations as individual enities not as some collective agency. The United Nations deals with nations as individual enities also. To claim that the initial conflict was solely a United Nations conflict is incorrect, it only further strenghten the legality of the event. Then United States went in as the United States Military, under United States Command Authority.Originally Posted by Tribesman
Are you attempting to claim that the United Nations trumps National Sovernity? Not even the United Nations has been that bold.
one can claim a violation by another even while they are in violation, happens all the time. The legality of the issue does not change because one is also violating the truce. Now all you have done is demonstrated that Iraq was also entitled to return to war under the Hague Convention because of a violation by one of the signers of the truce.Since America was in violation of the conditions of the truce it cannot claim that as justification .
You can't present two different types of arguements and debate the merits of both. Your second defeats the premise of you first arguement. Which could make one assume that you know that the first arguement in itself is incorrect.
O well, seems like 'some' people decide to ruin a perfectly valid threat. Nice going guys... doc bean
Oh the soveriegnty thingy the US command authority , how could I forget .You can claim it fell apart because you wish to win the arguement, however your comment fails to address the key point - The United Nations does not remove the soverignity of any nation. The Hague Conventions deal with nations as individual enities not as some collective agency. The United Nations deals with nations as individual enities also. To claim that the initial conflict was solely a United Nations conflict is incorrect, it only further strenghten the legality of the event. Then United States went in as the United States Military, under United States Command Authority.
Hmmm two deployments wasn't there . One whose sole mandate was the expulsion of Iraqi forces under the auspices of UN authority , the second a US deployment to protect Saudi Arabia from invasion . Both passed by congress , one subjecting the forces actions to UN authority , one keeping US authority ...the one with US authority was very limited in scope and not relevant at all to the ceasefire .
Nice try though Red .
If you act under an authority then the actions are under that authority , in this case the US ceded the authority to the UN , so the UN doesn't have to trump anything , the hand was given away .Are you attempting to claim that the United Nations trumps National Sovernity?
Not an absolute rebuttal there Tribes. Remember that the Cease Fire was signed by Nations - not the United Nations. The collation put forces into the UN Resolution under their own national authority. The United Nations did not have command authority over the United States. The United States signed the cease fire, which makes it revelant to the ceasefire.Originally Posted by Tribesman
Actually the United States did not cede authority to the United Nations. The United Nations does not grant authority, it grants something else.If you act under an authority then the actions are under that authority , in this case the US ceded the authority to the UN , so the UN doesn't have to trump anything , the hand was given away .
Edit: Then again I see you dropped your second arguement completely with your response.
Last edited by Redleg; 03-18-2008 at 17:19.
O well, seems like 'some' people decide to ruin a perfectly valid threat. Nice going guys... doc bean
LOLOriginally Posted by Adrian II
Never really been away - new job keeps me very busy with lots of travel. Got sort of a mini vacation this week. One that doesn't cost me my vacation time but I still get paid.
Life is grand
O well, seems like 'some' people decide to ruin a perfectly valid threat. Nice going guys... doc bean
Paid vacations are the bomb. And why is everyone so glum? It's been fire years of triumph!
Hitchens does a nice retrospective on our glorious victories in Iraq.
-edit-
Joe Klein has an astute evaluation of where the candidates are on Iraq:
Upshot: Everyone is saying things they don't mean to win the election. Shocking, I know.
Last edited by Lemur; 03-18-2008 at 20:13.
Cherry picking Lemur's post.
Fear
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and
Blood
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Last edited by Vladimir; 03-18-2008 at 21:10.
Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
Ik hou van ferme grieten en dikke pintenOriginally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
Down with dried flowers!
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
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